'Adultery' sisters to be stoned to death in Iran

[emad]

Source: Telegraph

Two Iranian sisters convicted of adultery face being stoned to death after the supreme court upheld death sentences against them, Iranian media have reported.

The two sisters were found guilty of adultery - a capital crime in Iran - after the husband of one of the pair presented a video showing them in the company of other men while he was away.

The penal court of Teheran province had already sentenced the sisters, identified only as Zohreh, 27, and Azar, to stoning, the newspaper said.

The Etemad newspaper quoted Jabbar Solati, their lawyer, as saying that the sisters had initially been tried for "illegal relations" and had received 99 lashes. However, they were convicted of "adultery" in a second trial for the same incident.



Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/05/wiran205.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

---

Cruelty to women the ultimate addiction?

[Bright Eyes]

1. Sick.

[Tyler Durden]

2. That whole area of the world has some serious growing up to do.

[subsuelo]

19. we all do

not any particular region more than another

[leftynyc]

23. I disagree

While I don't support bombing Iran (what a ridiculous strawman people keep throwing around), I can say, without equivocation, that that part of the world is in serious need on an enlightenment. Stonings, beheadings, death penalty for adultury (even when a woman has been raped), etc. It's like a horror movie - especially for women.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[subsuelo]

28. The West creates its own horror movies

While the Iranian version may include stonings and beheadings and awful treatment of women, the West's version includes bombing entire countries in search of precious natural resources. What's worse? It's arguable that the West is worse, but the point here isn't to judge on that - the point is to reiterate that we all have growing up to do, not just Iran or "that part of the world".

[superconnected]

80. When I sleep with a guy and tell everyone about it, I don't get stoned to death.

You must be a man with no fucking clue.

It is NOT like living in Iran for me

It's not even comparable.

- a Woman.

[ronnie624]

91. I wonder what it's like for a woman

living in a country that has been bombed into oblivion by the U.S. government.

[Psephos]

92. I wonder what it's like

living in a country where you'd be afraid to post that comment on a board where government authorities might read it

[ronnie624]

93. My point

is that Western governments can be as bad, if not worse, than theocratic Muslim governments.

The Iranian state oppresses women and occasionally murders them for adultery, while the U.S. imperialist state brings about the oppression of women and murders them en mass for resources, and in order to exercise political and economic control.

What exactly is your point, that I shouldn't criticize my government because I have the freedom to do so?

[leftynyc]

99. The difference is in your post

The Iranian government would kill you - you can scream your feelings about the chimp from the rooftops and may get cited for disturbing the peace. Criticize all you like, that's allowed here. But if you think women have it better over there, you're delusional.

[ronnie624]

115. Usually, I simply ignore posts

that deceitfully claim to see in my message, something that is not there.

Women have it far worse "over there", in many cases because of U.S. foreign policy. You and I are free to express our opinions, but nothing will change the fact that the U.S. government is ultimately responsible for the oppression of women in Iran.

[subsuelo]

118. I disagree with your last sentence

Iran definitely bears most of the responsibility for their treatment of women. You just can't blame the U.S. for that.

[ronnie624]

124. I disagree.

For nearly five decades, America's role in the military coup that ousted Iran's elected prime minister and returned the shah to power has been lost to history, the subject of fierce debate in Iran and stony silence in the United States. One by one, participants have retired or died without revealing key details, and the Central Intelligence Agency said a number of records of the operation — its first successful overthrow of a foreign government — had been destroyed.

But a copy of the agency's secret history of the coup has surfaced, revealing the inner workings of a plot that set the stage for the Islamic revolution in 1979, and for a generation of anti-American hatred in one of the Middle East's most powerful countries. The document, which remains classified, discloses the pivotal role British intelligence officials played in initiating and planning the coup, and it shows that Washington and London shared an interest in maintaining the West's control over Iranian oil.

The secret history, written by the C.I.A.'s chief coup planner and obtained by The New York Times, says the operation's success was mostly a matter of chance. The document shows that the agency had almost complete contempt for the man it was empowering, Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlevi, whom it derided as a vacillating coward. And it recounts, for the first time, the agency's tortured efforts to seduce and cajole the shah into taking part in his own coup.

The operation, code-named TP-Ajax, was the blueprint for a succession of C.I.A. plots to foment coups and destabilize governments during the cold war — including the agency's successful coup in Guatemala in 1954 and the disastrous Cuban intervention known as the Bay of Pigs in 1961. In more than one instance, such operations led to the same kind of long-term animosity toward the United States that occurred in Iran.

<http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/history/2000/0416ciairan.htm>

U.S. interventions have clearly led to extremism, conflict and oppression in many parts of the world, including Iran. The key to freedom for Iranian women can be found in information about the nature of our own government, accepting responsibility for its misdeeds and seeking a relationship with Iran that is based on dialog and diplomacy, instead of aggression and dominance.

I am uncomfortable with the hypocrisy of pointing fingers in judgment at the Iranian government, when our own government bears most of the responsibility for the current political situation there.

[subsuelo]

126. oh ok, yup you are right

My fault. I am with you on that.

[leftynyc]

128. I see your argument and disagree

vehemently. What about Saudi Arabia and Pakistan (worse offenders than Iran when it comes to women)? We're responsible for the Taliban's rule in Afghanistan (before 9/11) and their treatment of women?!! Your hatred for this country has seriously clouded your thinking. How are we responsible for all those men behaving like complete assholes and using their religion to do it?

[ronnie624]

133. The Uk and the US

have been forcefully intervening in the affairs of all of the countries you mentioned, for a very long time.

Zbigniew Brezinski, Jimmy Carter's national security adviser, has stated publicly, that the reason for initiating covert operations in Afghanistan, was to provoke an invasion by the Soviet Union, which is exactly what happened. The CIA helped to provoke a 'holy war' against the Soviet Union, and even published the textbooks which were used in the madrases that trained students in jihad. I can't imagine how this hasn't helped to generate the extremism that is found there today.

As for hating the United States, such a concept is rather foreign to me these days. I haven't experienced such a foolish emotion in many years. I neither hate nor love countries. To my mind, they simply represent categorizations of human culture.

[leftynyc]

136. So your positon is that

it's the West's fault that the MEN in these countries just can't help themselves from abusing their women. That if only we had stayed out of their affairs, their women would be free to get educated, free to run their own lives. You do realize that is the same as the Muslim mullahs claiming that women shouldn't go outside showing any parts of their bodies because if they do, they deserve to get raped because men are merely animals who can't control themselves. In other words, you think they're children.

[subsuelo]

114. edited...

edit to add: please see my post #120 for clarification

[fbahrami]

87. good point

[patrick t. cakes]

69. agreed

a horror show is right.
theocracy at it finest.

[Deja Q]

132. While I agree it's uncivilized, right down to selective abortions of females, it's their culture and

it's their choice.

Now either their own people will demand reverence for life or others will have the choice to keep a line drawn or intervene.

Not exactly the easiest question to ponder as, ultimately, someone would be called a racist, anti-religion fr00t-l00p, anti-women, sexist, self-righteous, militant, and/or whatever else one desires because everybody knows name-calling is far more fun than true debating...

It's just business; we may as well keep the line drawn. That way, everyone can happily be called "cowards". :D

Then again, so did IBM and Ford during the early 1940s... or so the internet tells me when web-searching a myriad of incongruous words pertaining to that era...

[superconnected]

71. I hope you're kidding.

[subsuelo]

72. nope.

[snagglepuss]

117. Spare me. Show me who else stones women to death.

This is sick crap.

[subsuelo]

120. I am sorry

This is yet another post missing the point, so I'll take the blame for not being clear enough.

I never said we're just as bad in treatment of women, which is how some are interpreting my post. To say that would be insane. The point I meant to make is that we all have our own growing up to do, just in different areas. It could be said that we're worse in treatment of people in general, given that we're still involved in an occupation of a country for no reason other than our desire to profit from their natural resources. That's pretty sickening to me, now maybe others don't feel the same, but I get just as sickened about what we're doing in Iraq and elsewhere, as I do about stories like women getting stoned to death. Thus my post: that we all have growing up to do - not just "that part of the world".

[GoneOffShore]

127. Yes and?

The horrors that are perpetuated daily on women and minority's by "Third World" theocracies and dictatorships mean little compared to the crimes of the West?

We cause those horrors to committed?

What rubbish!

I suggest that you examine your cultural apologist stance a little more closely.

Until then,

buh - bye

[Douglas Carpenter]

97. the Middle East is changing and it is changing remarkably fast and

the changes have been revolutionary - albeit gradual and they still have quite a long ways to go.

I have not been to Iran personally. But I have spent close to half my life in the Middle East. And people I know who have spent a lot of time in Iran report quite dramatic changes over the past couple of decades. What used to be almost a daily occurrence is now the exception which grabs headlines. And now it is open to public domestic debate that would have been completely inconceivable only a few years ago.

And Middle Eastern countries are not all the same anymore than Asian countries, Latin American countries or European countries are all the same.

By far Saudi Arabia and Iran are the two strictest Islamist societies in the world. Saudi Arabia is by far more restrictive - much, much more so than Iran.

Still, if I contrast the first time I was in Saudi Arabia in 1986 to the most recent time in Nov of 2007 -- 21 years ago I recall reading the most prominent local English language newspaper. And frankly it was like a joke. All articles relating to the government or the society itself were filled with nothing but praise. Everything was great and getting better. The local media was only one step above Radio Albania in the outrageousness of its own propaganda.

Now I can pick up the same newspaper and read open although admittedly somewhat restrained criticism of the government and of the society itself - but articles and openness that would have been unimaginable 21 years ago. Opinion pieces by Saudi woman calling for more rights for woman are now in the paper all the time. Articles calling for more openness from the government and criticizing the state for a lack of openness don't even raise an eyebrow anymore. Articles criticizing the society itself and the excessive influence of religious hardliners are normal. They are so common now. Even the former Israeli Knesset Member Uri Avnery's column - calling for the two-state solution and a mutual acceptance between Israel and the Arab world is now a regular in the same paper which once wouldn't even mention that columnist country's name.

More importantly is the dramatic changes in human consciousness. 21 years ago most Saudis seemed barely aware of the world just over the hill. Collective awareness outside their own tribe and province was minimal. Now most younger generation Saudis can converse and debate rationally and critically not only about the affairs of Saudi Arabia and the Middle East - but show an awareness of International issues and debate that I doubt most young Americans have. I know this is hard to believe. But I am absolutely certain that the average young Middle Eastern high school graduate is far more aware and far more critical thinking about international issues outside their own borders than the average young American.

Is the change happening fast enough? No! Do they still have a long ways to go especially when it comes to issues of woman rights? Absolutely! But they are making progress. They are moving forward. And I would dare say that they have moved forward more in the past 21 years than many societies have done over centuries.

[Syrinx]

3. that's a great reason to bomb Iran!

Isn't it?

:freak:

Iran has a shitty government. It is true.

But you are being manipulated, people!

[sam sarrha]

7. probably over 90% of Iran supports American democracy and wants a western lifestyle, they gave up

their freedom to one man just like we did... and got screwed..

the vast majority of the Iranian people are an intelligent and good people eager for Modernity.

it is ABHORRENT TO ADVOCATE BOMBING ANYONE, especially people like the Iranians who have suffered so much.

[endarkenment]

12. And you know that how?

In particular why would Iranians support "American democracy"? There might be majority support for something other than the current deformed theocratic republic, but I rather doubt that Iranians want something as flawed as our republic.

[sam sarrha]

13. we don't have democracy here anymore, you might have noticed i mentioned we gave it away

[Syrinx]

94. I totally agree with you

[DogPoundPup]

11. You KNOW IT and I KNOW IT while the 'sheep' romp and play....

They haven't learned a thing. Sad isn't it?

[Nye Bevan]

20. "you are being manipulated, people"

How?

Did Karl Rove somehow get those women to commit adultery?

Or did he bribe the judges to pass the death sentence?

[superconnected]

81. You missed the point.

I'm pretty sure that person means we're being minipulated into supporting bombing iran.

Sure this stuff happens, but why is it front page news now. They've been doing it for years.

[Syrinx]

95. thank you

[Deep13]

21. It takes quite a bit of gaul to say we are being manipulated.

You have no idea what I am thinking or what my perspective on this is. The way the Islamic world treats women is a crime against humanity.

[Syrinx]

96. As I said Iran, has a shitty government

What I was talking about, is why are suddenly seeing all these news stories about how shitty the Iranian government is. It's not a new development. And the government of Saudi Arabia is even "shittier" but that's not news.

I made no comment on what you were thinking or on your perspective. I was commenting on the fact that the administration and their surrogates in the media are preparing for the imminent all-out assault on innocent Iranian people.

[leftynyc]

101. Suddenly seeing???

What universe are you in? Conditions for women in sharia run countries is not new and I'm not going to hide my disgust of these countries because this administration might use it. That makes us as repressed as Iran.

[Syrinx]

102. I'm in the same universe as you, I suppose

They are hyping this anti-Iranian stuff in the run-up to the attack on Iran. Just like Iraq. And just like Iraq in the first Iraq war. (Remember the incubators?) I hate the mullahs just as much as anyone, but you must recognize this selective propaganda for what it is.

[muriel_volestrangler]

110. But since we've had stories in the past few days on DU

about death sentences in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3168803 and http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3157106 - it seems that governments that are allies of the US government do get this 'hype' too.

[leftynyc]

113. Propoganda equals lies

This is not a lie - the lives these women lead (not just in Iran but in any sharia run country) are shameful to see. And not speaking out because of some foreign policy reason is also shameful. We can have two thoughts in our heads.

[OnionPatch]

41. Let's bomb all those people over there

to protect women's rights!! Yeah!!

:sarcasm:

[subsuelo]

74. No the American way

would be to bomb a country that had nothing to do with the issue at hand.

[Syrinx]

98. oh, there it is

I guess I misplaced my :sarcasm: tag.

[leftynyc]

100. You really think we are morons

Why is it everytime someone points out how horrendous conditions are for women who live under sharia law it translates into wanting to bomb Iran. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard and you're using propoganda just like this administration. These women are about to be STONED TO DEATH but we shouldn't speak out because obviously someone from the administration is monitoring this board and will use someone's post to go to war against Iran. Do you realize how stupid that sounds? Talk about being maniupulated!!

[Syrinx]

108. speak out all you want

While you are speaking out, speak out against Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. While you are at it, speak out against torture committed by the United States Of America.

Speak out against the atrocities in Jordan, and Israel, and Egypt, and in the former Soviet republics.

All I'm saying is the only reason these stories about Iran are gaining traction is because this evil administration wants to attack that country, and they are using the state controlled media to whip up a frenzy against them. To fuel the flames of hatred against a Muslim country!

I said in my original reply that the Iranian government is bad. Our own government is also bad.

Do you want to kill a few million Iranians to stop the bad Iranian government? I don't.

I'd prefer to elect a sane government in this country that is able to exert moral authority over rogue governments around the world. Instead of being a rogue government that uses propaganda to deceive our own citizens.

The human rights abuses in Iran are not new, if you haven't noticed.

Instead of Iran becoming more like America, we are becoming more like Iran. I happen to disagree with that.

Sorry if that sounds stupid to you.

[leftynyc]

112. What makes you think I don't

speak out against SA and Pakistan (two of the worst offenders)? And I've plainly stated that I have no desire to bomb anyone. I also realize these are not new charges (you may want to stop sounding so condescending). But to stop reporting these abuses because bush MAY want to bomb Iran is stupid. Calling people manipulated because they speak out is also stupid. To think that the women of this country can't have two thoughts at the same time is insulting.

[bronxiteforever]

4. Simply Evil

eom

[atreides1]

8. Evil.

Like Robertson, Dobson, and Huckabee. These men and their followers would do the same if given any real access to power, which is why they have to be defeated.

[marshall]

15. When is the last time a Christian government handed down such a verdict?

I don't recall.

[Deep13]

27. Early 18th century.

Then the made-up offense was witchcraft, not adultery. Coincidentally, that was the last time Christianity was powerful enough in the European world to challenge secular authority. Churches still successfully block access to divorce, abortion and contraceptives and AIDS prevention in countries where they are strong enough to do so. In the 1990s when Ireland was considering legalizing divorce, Catholic officials including Mother Theresa campaigned against it without any regard for the idea that Catholics should be free to live in bad marriages if they want while not imposing their will on noncatholics. In El Salvador, abortion is illegal to the point were doctors are not permitted to end ectopic pregnancies which pose an immediate threat to the woman's life. In Africa, the Catholic church has promised martyrdom to women who die of AIDS rather than using condoms.

The real difference is that in most majority Christian countries, the state is largely secular while the churches are comparatively weak. In Islamic states (as opposed to secular, majority Muslim states like Turkey) the crazies--their Pat Robertsons--are actually in charge and free to impose their irrational and cruel ideas on everyone else.

[winter999]

36. So Christians did this kind of stuff 300 years ago while Iran

is doing it today. Just gotta love how some people can dredge up Judaic-Christian atrocities from hundreds of years ago and give it the same weight as the things going on in the 21st Century. No living Christian or Jew as publicly beheaded or stoned a woman.

[Deep13]

39. I'm not aware of any such examples.

If there are any, it would be a criminal offense rather than a state atrocity. This news item illustrates the difference between rational governance and religious rule. So I think critics of Christianity are right to point out that when churches were strong this kind of thing happened in Christian countries. There are those on the political right who want us to return to those days.

[winter999]

42. As with what we see in the Islamic world, those in power want to

keep that power and will use "Allah" as a tool to keep it. I truly believe that the only way out of this horrible situation is for a world-wide Islamic Enlightenment. But the Ummahs in power would never let that happen.

[Deep13]

46. Yup. That is probably true.

It is a pity to see the state of the Islamic world today considering their academic achievements of past centuries. Muslim historians saved many ancient classical works at a time when Christians were burning pagan books. For example, they pioneered modern mathematics including algebra.

[winter999]

56. I've been reading the Arabian Nights and

am amazed at just how much of our modern world can be attributed to medieval Islam. From the name, Gibraltar, to most of the names of our stars, ancient Arab culture has had a profound effect. Now, the Islamic Fundies are saying that scientific inquiry is questioning Allah's work and is discouraged (as is dancing, poetry, singing, ...). It's really a 180 from the early Muslims.

[Runcible Spoon]

64. yep. this radical, violent strain of Islam is a direct result of colonialism and neo-colonialism.

Just because these ugly sects pretend to hearken back to ancient custom doesn't mean they have anything in common with the practices of Islam historically.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

79. Look up Omar Khayyam of Naishapur.

Scientist, astronomer, mathematician and poet, solver of cubic equations, author of the Rubaiyat.

He invented the calendar they use over there and it's more accurate than our Gregorian calendar.

He lived arouns 1000 A.D.

Get the movie THE KEEPER: THE LEGEND OF OMAR KHAYYAM. A gorgeous movie with a great message without being sappy.

Available at www.greatomar.com

[pingzing58]

53. I think Deep13 was making the point that the oppression of women is masked by RC Natural Law and

is no different than sentencing a woman to death by stoning. The latter overt, the former, moral influence on civil law. The result is the same, the oppression of women and death.

[The Wizard]

44. Considering that Islam

is 600 years newer than Christianity, it will take them another 600 years and an Enlightenment to reach where the west is now. The only thing radical religious nuts of any stripe like about modernity is the weaponry. Marx was right about religion.

[Deep13]

47. Got that right. They reject science except when they can use it. nt

[leftynyc]

103. So we should just shut up

and forget that hundreds of millions of women in the Islamic world are leading lives of virtual slaves and just wait for them to be enlightened that this is a bad thing to do. Do what you want. I'll speak out for these women anytime I like because that's something my government (as flawed as it is) allows . I call the chimp an asshole at least once a day on principle and I don't have to worry about someone dragging me away. I can marry who I want, screw who I want, dress the way I want, get educated, run for president, practice any religion I like or worship trees if that's my thing. People that call our government the same as Iran are being disengenuous. There is nothing relative about our cultures.

[atreides1]

30. What Christian Government are you Referring to

I wasn't aware that one existed, I was only saying that should people with the mindset of Robertson and Dobson ever come to power, I believe that they will do the same thing, and their mindless minions will stand by and do nothing.

[Deep13]

32. No doubt.

How many women are dead at the bottom of Lake Geneva because of John Calvin's puritanical law during the reformation?

[143tbone]

54. It seems that testosterone is the culprit here, not religion.

Or at least we can say that's one hell of a combination.

[pingzing58]

65. WWII changed the role of women in U.S. society forever. They went to work

to support the cause. Once they were allowed to go outside of the house and take positions beyond their role as housewives and child care givers, predominant social understanding of women changed (for the better, less repressive from a contemporary perspective). Women are still not treated equally in the workplace and with the recent Ledbetter decision by the U.S. Supreme Court they have be punished for not comparing their pay and yearly raises with their male counterparts within 180 days of the last descriminatory infraction by the employer. The Alito decision makes it incumben upon the woman to discover the inequality in pay on her own and report it to the authorities. The Boss and Business owner have been given a free pass to discriminate against women, etc., and avoiding any responsibility for their actions. We still have a long way to go in the fight for equality in the U.S.

edit: <http://www.now.org/issues/economic/070530equalpay.html>

[cstanleytech]

88. You mean in public?

No idea, none spring to mind.
Now if you had asked when was the last time a government had commited a crime against another human I would point to gitmo and Abu graib.

[Deep13]

34. Agreed. Evil and tragic.

:(
And for the record, whether they are guilty or not is irrelevant. I don't care if they were screwing everthing in pants at public square: no one deserves this.

[DogPoundPup]

5. Wouldn't waterboarding them be kinder, gentler

Or wouldn't giving them their death sentence of lethal injections (as the U.S. does) that prolong their demise for torturous minutes, be kinder or gentler? :shrug:

Come on people, IF in fact these women are guilty of adultery (which has been a deadly sin in their culture for time everlasting), then what is the purpose of this as DU NEWS?

I think their is an hidden agenda here by.

[Nye Bevan]

22. I read your post 4 times

And I still have no idea what point you are trying to make.

:shrug:

[DogPoundPup]

119. Sorry to confuse you,

The main point I'm trying to make is that these women KNEW what the punishment would be for what they 'supposedly' did...it's NOT A NEW LAW in their 2000+ year old culture.

STOP believing we can project our liberalism into their culture, their society! 'Let's' (the U.S. military by way of the bush regime) stop bombing and killing their women and children for starers!

[Deep13]

29. The hidden agenda is to expose cruelty and misogyny.

Or have we given up on the whole women-are-people thing?

[DogPoundPup]

121. I don't think 'we' have given up the whole women-are-people

thing 'in this country'. So what is your point, we need to save all other cultures from themselves while we STILL HAVE UNEQUAL PAY FOR WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY, and the evenagelicals IN THE U.S. are fighting tooth and nail to regress our society back to the days of "keeping the little lady barefoot and pregnant"? Let's concentrate on the here and now HERE first and fight the injustices HERE first instead of being sidetracked with this wedge agenda.

[LeftinOH]

37. The purpose is: To recognize religious insanity wherever it occurs-

regardless of the religion.

[DogPoundPup]

116. Religious insanity? How about culture...Please Read....

The Muslim world is full of people who aver support for democracy. But comparatively few mean liberal, secular democracy, which is what Americans mean. Instead, they mean a combination of democracy and theocracy that Americans would not recognize as liberal-democratic at all. For example, they tell pollsters they want democracy while also saying their governments should be more Islamic.

These people reject American-style social liberalization, such as equality for women, which Americans regard as a democratic linchpin. On the other hand, the great majority of them abhor violence. Thus, writes Etzioni, "major segments of the Muslim world are neither pro-liberal-democracy nor pro-violence."
http://www.reason.com/news/show/124848.html

[AlphaCentauri]

89. MMM! the stupid husband could just upload the video to youtube with out hurting anybody

:shrug:

[sam sarrha]

6. Allah IS merciful, although it took double jeopardy to do it.. Islam never had an "Age of Reason",

they don't use it, it has become a patriarchal oligarchy.

why is anyone surprised. i am sure most Muslims do not really want to live in the 6th century with all the benefits of feudalism, and i will bet a paycheck most would be women.

but they are stuck with what they got, what can you do but pray for them.?

[crim son]

9. Pray for them.

You mean, like we all prayed for Terri Schiavo?

Allah is merciful, no less so than the Christian Lord; it is the human being who lack mercy, across the globe and across religions.
Edited for seriously horrifying sentence structure -

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deep13]

31. Nothing is quite as useless as prayer.

There is no god to make this okay in the end. Actions count. They include international pressure as well as strengthening our secular government here and encouraging the same elsewhere, especially in those few majority-Muslim states that have secular governments.

For those that say god/allah is merciful, I would like to know where you have seen this mercy in action.

[Lilith Velkor]

125. Yes it did, in the 8th-13th centuries

The mathematic system we use today was invented in Baghdad.

In between prayers, you might want to read a few books, so that your opinion is better informed.

[rateyes]

14. Wonder what will happen to the men who committed adultery

with them? :shrug:

That's one sick justice system. Sounds a lot like ours, when it comes to double-standards, and all.

[winter999]

40. If the woman he's adulterizing with is free, then nothing happens

since a man can have any number of wives and concubines. If the woman is the wife (or betrothed) to another man, I think the adulterer pays a fine and the woman is stoned.

Also for you women's rights, remember that a woman can't get a divorce, where a man simply has to say "I divorce thee" three times in front of witnesses to completely dissolve the marriage. I don't think he woman gets any kind of settlement.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

52. The women were not "free"

At least one was married.

I don't know Iranian law, but in a similar case in Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, the woman was stoned. Her partner in the adultery was shown more mercy, he was beheaded.

There was a bit of a hubbub because the woman's husband didn't do the beheading, but delegated the job to a relative. It seems this was a shameful display of weakness.

Taliban were a fun crew. If we bomb Iran and kill off the current leadership, I'm sure the Taliban would be happy to come in and help form a new government.

[rpannier]

16. But...but...but this is the exception... and Christians would do it to if they could

and...and...and

Oh, f**k it. This sh*t is going on in

Afghanistan: Reporter sentences to life in jail for insulting the prophet.

Saudi Arabia: A rape victim was sentenced to 50+ lashes by the court (The King graciously pardoned her)

In Iran they've hanged men for being gay

It's a litany that continues.

I haven't read about a prostitute being executed anywhere in Europe, North America, Japan, Korea or Israel yet.
I haven't read about the government executing anyone for being gay in the above places.

[rateyes]

17. I haven't read about the government executing anyone for being gay in the above places.

Not the government, but some "Christians" have executed people for being gay.

[leftynyc]

24. Do you not see the difference between

a Christian lunatic who will likely get the death penalty if caught and STATE SPONSORED killings of gays and adulturous women? Sad if you do not.

[rateyes]

33. Of course I do. I do NOT however see the difference between

Muslims who would do this and Christians who would do this.

[TCJ70]

49. You aren't wording it right...

...it's muslims who ARE doing this and christians who WOULD do this.

That's the difference.

[rateyes]

60. I said that Christians are executing people because they are gay.

I'm wording it exactly right.

[LanternWaste]

68. There is a precise and relevant difference in the words "murder" and "execute"

There is a precise and relevant difference in the words "murder" and "execute". They do not have the same meaning.

[rateyes]

111. Yeah, but the results look the same to the victim. nt

[leftynyc]

104. They are also going to jail for it

if they are caught and tried (which they usually are). In Iran, it's the government doing the killing.

[marshall]

61. The difference is mathematical...

Separated by several hundred years.

[grahamhgreen]

35. NOT EXECUTED, BUT STILL PERSECUTED IN THE WEST

[winter999]

57. I'd rather be alive and fight the good fight than have a rock cave in my head.

[ronnie624]

134. The prostitutes that the U.S. government has 'executed',

lived in other countries and were accompanied by millions of other women who were not prostitutes. But they haven't received a lot of media attention, and for some reason, certain people do not express much outrage over it.

[Dollface]

18. FundaMENTALism at work Pat Robertson is jealous.

[Phred42]

25. Political Bumper Sticker for 2008: If You Want a Nation Ruled By Religion, Move to Iran

If You Want a Nation Ruled By Religion, Move to Iran

[rpannier]

43. I like it...

I think I'll have one made.

[LeftinOH]

38. This story should be the current media sensation....not Britney.

[The Wizard]

45. It would be a story if the paparazzi

could get a beaver shot.

[raebrek]

51. You mean like this?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fLLZhAVeB8Y I have not listened to this with the sound up as I am at work.

Raebrek!!!

[ohio2007]

48. No wonder they want to cut internet cables in the middle east

They are tired of prying eyes.
The mullahs would call this a western propaganda attack on their religion.

Freedom of religion,
comming to a mosque near you ;)

THAT is the way to fight the WOT

[bamacrat]

50. What will happen to the guy in the tape, will he get a high five?

Also since when has Iran allowed video cameras in private residences? The sad thing is all the people who hate the Muslim people for being trrrrsts, they never cite their treatment of women. It is always the peaceful people who look at this as more of a problem than trrrrrrr.

:mad: :puke: :mad: :puke: :wtf:

[peace13]

55. Here in America our police strip search women for 'disorderly'

conduct. Male officers stripping women who are supposedly innocent until proven guilty. How are we any better?

[ohio2007]

59. the supreme court upheld death sentences against them

from the article;
the supreme court upheld death sentences against them

the Iranian supreme court is stacked.... can't wait until the other party takes back power over there-
oh wait .....

lol

Yes, we are much better off and I'd like to see your link that says all women arrested are strip searched like a Palistian at the Gaza border

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22XEkJY62VA&feature=related

[peace13]

73. Don't twist my words. n/t

[ohio2007]

76. ..still waiting the link to back up your comment nt

ahhh
you'll learn after you get out of jr high that life isn't a bowl of cherries for everyone in the world
peace ... 13

[peace13]

85. Not that I should dignify you with an answer.

Have at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ6Lsqmf9yM

There's more where that came from. This is what is America and we are all sliding toward the bottom of hell. I don't understand your hostility here.

[brentspeak]

83. Uh, the United States government doesn't stone women to death

Does that answer your question?

[freedomnorth]

109. US government uses lethal injections et cetera. nt.

[leftynyc]

105. You honestly think that's the same

as stoning someone to death? Are they really equal in your brain?

[fascisthunter]

58. Now We Have a Perfect Excuse to Bomb Iraq... I Mean Iran!

:crazy:

[emad]

62. Iranian Nobel Laureate/Muslim Women Lawyer's chair Shirin Ebadi

would make an extremely effective UN Secretary General.

She has campaigned vociferously against this kind of institutionalised cruelty to women.

Iranian theocrats are now running totally out of control and need a dose of their own medicine.

[JerseygirlCT]

63. I think it's pretty sad

that an outrageous example of the horrors perpetrated on women in this world is somehow twisted around as:
1. Just an excuse for war with Iran; pay it no mind
2. Really all about how horrible religion is - let's attack people of faith instead

This isn't about Christianity vs. Islam. This isn't about the Bush administration's eagerness for more war. This is about something far, far older and more insidious. It predates any organized religion and it's still happening. THAT'S what should be stopping us short. Two women are sentenced to be killed - stoned to death (yeah, think about that) based on age-old cultural norms that elevate men and lower women to the level of chattel.

[Chovexani]

67. Thank you for some sanity.

[ohio2007]

77. some perspectives are not welcome

when they clash with .......

well, never mind

[leftynyc]

106. Yeah - must shut up about about it

because Karl Rove is obviously watching.

[patrick t. cakes]

66. lets lob a shit ton of bombs

on them.

that'll learn um'.

[nyc 4 Biden]

70. what the heck

The anti-Christian / anti-religion tone of the replies to this thread, and across DU in general is disheartening.

Sure there are bad Christians out there, as there are bad people of every faith or of no faith. As a Catholic, I for one know as many decent people of faith as people who are not affiliated with any religion and likewise for the jerks I know of. I do admit that some higher-ups in the church have done horrible things as it is with any large organization. I just feel the core beliefs of most religions are more helpful to society than hurtful. I also have nothing against atheists or agnostics.

"Most criminals are religious"
"get rid of all religions"

Now I remember why i haven't been around as much lately and try to stick to LBN. I applaud those in this thread (religious or not) who spoke up against this intolerance.

Does being a Christian mean I can't be Democrat, to the casual DU'er it sure seems so.

[Megahurtz]

75. I hate ALL Religious Fundamentalist Whackos. n/t

[superconnected]

82. It's not really religion. If they had no religion they'd come up with something

else to try to control everyone else with. The problem is 'ego'. They stroke their ego with power - control over others. Money is only power that feeds the ego too. Religion is only their vehicle. Not having religion will not take away what people do bad to others - they'll just do it under "principal" or "county loyality" or "clan loyality" or insert_any_other_reason, if they can't call it religion.

Countries having a flag that soldiers are willing to die for(and kill for) is an example.

[eib1]

78. They devalue the lives God gave them.

The devalue their religion by making it an excuse for social and lethal control.
Islam appears to the world to be the religion of small-minded, childish, controlling, stupid, irrational men.
It also appears less than civilized.
And yet, Muslims did create a civilization. One that was urban, cosmopolitan even.
And I'm sure it was more humane that what we're seeing here.

[brentspeak]

84. s/d

[happyslug]

86. I have to make a comment on all the attacks regarding Adultery and Islam

Mohammad had a problem when his youngest wife turn 14. She was left behind as he moved his camp from one site to another. During that movement his youngest wife was left behind. She was picked up by a male who took her to his camp. The issue quickly became did she commit adultery? Mohammad asked his son in law, Ali, who responded that the law was clear, she had to die. Mohammad decided he needed four witnesses to convict a woman of Adultery and spared his wife. Ali accepted this decision and it was incorporated into Islamic law.

I point it out to show that adultery was a capital offense EVEN BEFORE Islam and pre-dates both Christianity and Judaism. It reflected the tension within a society when the basic safety net was provided by the extended family NOT society as a whole. The extended family only wanted to support children of both a mother and a Father who had agreed to stay together and support the children of that couple. Thus marriage was more a merger of two extended families then two people getting together. It is for this reason, more than any other Adultery is forbidden to females. This pre-christian, pre-Islamic, pre-Judaic law assumed that any child born of the woman was the product of her husband. If that could be show to be un-true (i.e. she committed Adultery) then his family did NOT have to support the child or the wife AND both would become economic burdens on her family WITHOUT the right to any support from the child's father (Which would be unknown). In the herding society that made up the Arab world the inability to call in support condemned you (unless the "shame" could be bought off, which was and is part of Islamic law).

As to males having sex outside of marriage, that was more acceptable, NOT because they were Male, but being Male any child of such sex would NOT be born for many months after he had forgotten about having had sex and the Mother would have to prove who was the father, her word was NOT good enough (And sex between non-married people was NOT adultery, if both were NOT married). Furthermore Iran is Shiite (i.e. follower of Ali), and the Shiites permit one night "marriages" if a couple want to have sex. Thus, unless the woman is married, it is NOT adultery (But since most marriages are arranged, the action of the woman affects TWO families and considered a higher crime them a male having sex).

This is complicated by the fact that outside of Europe Cousin marrying is not only acceptable but is the norm (A thousand years of Christian policy against such marriages has had a affect, we rarely marry our cousins, but that is the norm is the rest of the world). Thus when a woman commits adultery, she is often not only "offending" her husband, but her extended family which often includes his extended family.

Do to the ban on marrying Cousins, this was less a problem in Christian Europe. Adultery was still banned, but given the difficultly is proving it (And Christ's own refusal to punish an adulteress) it was rare. With the expansion of the Welfare State since about 1800, the need for keeping the extended family happy has also receded in most of the Industrialized world (Through, even today if a dependent spouse commits adultery, that spouse will lose whatever spousal support the "injured" spouse otherwise would have to provide).

I am writing this for the problem is most Third world countries still rely on extended family as their safety net. Given the higher level of in-breeding, the adulteress has little or no support and this existed in Ancient times as while as today. If the woman had money on her own she may be able to buy out the crime. If her family has money they may be able to buy out the claim. The reason is simple ADULTERY IS VIEWED AS AN ECONOMIC LOSS TO THE HUSBAND'S FAMILY AND IF THAT FAMILY IS MADE "WHOLE" THE PROBLEM IS RESOLVED WITHOUT ANY KILLING.

Will the Sisters be executed? Maybe, but if they family can pay off the husband's family that may never occur.

Just pointing out the problem is a fight between two families over economics, adultery is just the cover for the negotiations.

As to the Taliban they are Sunni, and by some accounts only converted from pagan beliefs in the late 1700s early 1800s. Those pagan beliefs still carry weight in those mountains and execution still occur, but so are pay offs. The situation in the Mountains is, do to this war, it is so poor most families can NOT come up with the money to pay off for such crimes and thus people die. We are hearing more of this for families often do not have the money they had 10 years ago, we will continue to hear such stories till the whole area improves economically so that the woman and/or their families can pay off the husband's family and settle it like most such cases were in the past by pay-offs.

[fujiyama]

90. I just have to say

That is one fucked up country.

But so are some of our so called allies like Saudi Arabia where similar judgments are handed down.

[leftynyc]

107. I would like to point out

that woman who was pardoned by the King in SA was pardoned due to international pressure. That's what the answer is. Not bombing Iran. No country likes to look bad and it's only BECAUSE people speak out that anything rational gets done. So I'll keep screaming about the treatment of our sisters in these countries. I have't taken a poll but I'm guessing that all those that are trying to distract from this abomination by saying stupid shit like we're being maniupulated into bombing Iran and therefore should just shut up are men. Just think how you'd feel if this was your mother, sister, daughter.

[DogPoundPup]

122. Images inside Tehran, Iran you won't see everyday

Pictures of life in Tehran, Iran accompanied by Cat Stevens singing 'Peace Train' http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

[ronnie624]

135. Very good.

I've seen that before, but it was worth watching again. It helps add perspective and context.

All of the vilification, serves only to manufacture support for future aggression.

[speedingbullet]

123. Appalling

This is disturbing on so many levels. The writers of our constitution really got it right in keeping religion out of government with the First Amendment. I'm not sure what the answer is but I damn sure don't trust our current administration starting any more wars. If President Obama or President Clinton argues for military intervention (after cleaning up the Iraq mess), maybe, I'll listen.

[emad]

129. Ultimately sadism is a drug of choice.

Marketed as religion it makes me feel ill.

[poppysgal]

130. How horrifying

This is absolutely horrific. There is no excuse for this to happen in our world today-anywhere, to anyone at anytime.

[Iceburg]

Why are women hated and abused in every nation on this planet?/nt

[Iceburg]

131. Why are women hated and abused in every nation on this planet?/nt

[eib1]

137. They're hated and abused

because they're not men.
They're simply not.