Sharia Law in UK is 'Unavoidable'

[NashVegas]

Source: BBC

The Archbishop of Canterbury says the adoption of certain aspects of Sharia law in the UK "seems unavoidable".
...
Dr Rowan Williams argues that adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law would help maintain social cohesion.

For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.

He says Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty".

..

He stresses that "nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that's sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well".

But Dr Williams says the argument that "there's one law for everybody... I think that's a bit of a danger".

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm

---

I think he's off his rocker.

[atreides1]

1. Why Is He Off His Rocker

No being anti-Jewish, but don't they have a similar procedure for divorce? That is already in place?

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. Yes, the Beth Din - and an Islamic equivalent already exists

While religious leaders in the UK's Jewish and Muslim communities have not sought to enforce their own versions of criminal law, they have steadily built up their capacity to deal with civil matters within their own religious codes. What's more, they are doing it with the help of English law.

The Beth Din is the most formally entrenched of these minority courts. The UK's main Beth Din is based in Finchley, north London.

It oversees a wide range of cases including divorce settlements, contractual rows between traders and tenancy disputes.

The court cannot force anyone to come within its jurisdiction. But once someone agrees to settle a dispute in the Beth Din, he or she is bound in English law to abide by the court's decision.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6190080.stm

The important things here are that it's civil law, not criminal; and that the parties concerned all agree to use these courts. There is a question raised at the end of the article about how 'voluntary' the use of courts may be for some, eg Muslim women. But overall, I don't think the ABC is saying anything radical here. It'll be interesting to know what the lawyers say to him when he gives his lecture.

[bananas]

11. arbitration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration

[papau]

17. Exactly - the US mediation service is the equivalent

[supernova]

19. Execept that the mediation service is secular

It upholds and affirms secular law.

Religious courts and "legal" systems work at cross purposes with western secular law.

[Ellen Forradalom]

16. It's women I'm concerned about.

I'm concerned that the use of these courts may be less than voluntary for some women. I would not want to see women pressured into a court system that values them less than men.

[rayofreason]

43. Unfortunately...

...that is likely to happen.

I share your concerns and I hope that UK feminists are proactive in seeking protection for vulnerable women in culturally isolated circumstances.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. So, it's a preexisting loophole the crazy mullahs are taking advantage of. Interesting.

I hope this is only a quirk of British law and not prevalent among Western democracies. I can tell you there's no way anything of the sort would fly in Brazil.

[roguevalley]

58. great. when they sentence women to death for breathing then what?

sharia law has no place in societies that pretend to be just. Britain last time I looked was a nation of laws and not a theocracy. What a bone head this man is. you get the society you desire. If you don't defend the law, then you will get sharia. Good luck with that.

[roguevalley]

59. we have that two law crap in America now. Do you really believe

that BUsh and co. will ever see a day in jail? However, the rest of us jaywalk and get the death penalty. Any society that has two sets of laws for their people is asking for chaos and injustice.

[pop goes the weasel]

2. this guy is a buffoon

The idea that there should be special populations who don't have access to the same law as the majority is dangerous in the extreme.

[soundguy]

3. I am left to wonder.

I am sure the far left of my party will have all manner of adjectives for me but who cares. I just hope OUR constitution will remain strong enough to keep this sort of shit from happening here. Once you make one concession of this sort, it is the beginning of the end. It seems there is a contingent of people hell bent on returning us to the dark ages. Our forefathers had a clear grasp on the separation of church and state and we need to preserve that here at all costs. Otherwise our country will rot from the inside.

[AngryAmish]

7. There is no seperation of church and state in the UK

Head of State: Queen of England

Head of Church of England: Queen of England

The formal concept of seperation of church and state is foreign to the UK.

[pokercat999]

80. And may they reap what they have sown!

[spoony]

90. The only bad thing they've sown so far

is America.

[pokercat999]

93. I can't follow the logic in that post, please explain.

[leftynyc]

14. Why would any member of our party

be upset with you? If we rail against Christian's trying to get religion into our business, whhat makes you think it would be any different if Muslims try it?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. "far left"

:eyes:

[appal_jack]

46. I stand with you soundguy

Strong fan of the Constitution here, especially the 1st Amendment.

The Founding Fathers may not have been perfect, but they were definitely practical visionaries who collectively bequeathed our nation with one of the greatest gifts ever crafted by human hands. I take my obligation to honor and preserve this gift as a fundamental tenet of citizenship.

Sharia law here? No. Never. No &%$^$#%$% way!!!

-app

[rateyes]

5. That's nuts. nt

[DS1]

6. fuck that shit

[mainegreen]

8. Never trust a man in a pointy hat unless his name is Gandalf.

[Teaser]

9. I thought the archbishop of canterbury had more sense than that

You know, this is stupider than anything I've heard from Pope Palpatine lately.

[PassingFair]

26. His church probably has special status he doesn't want to lose....

From the tussle in Canada in '05:

"Islamic law could be used to settle civil and marital disputes under a proposal made by former Ontario Attorney General Marion Boyd.

Roman Catholic and Jewish arbitration tribunals already operate Ontario.

Opponents of Sharia law say allowing Islamic tribunals could lead to discrimination against women.



"Ms Boyd argues that if Sharia is not allowed, all religious arbitration bodies could be abolished. "


I know here in the United States, churches are afforded special privledges...
Priests cannot be compelled to testify (I don't think) about "confessions".
They kept their abuse problem sealed up for DECADES.

[amandabeech]

78. The privilege of priest and penitant doesn't constitute any kind of special court.

In U.S. law, any recognized religious figure (priest, protestant minister, rabbi, mullah, etc.) has the same privilege as a doctor, psychologist or attorney to remain silent on matters that the penitant, patient or client tells him or her. That's the reason why priests couldn't be compelled to rat out other priests who had confessed their horrendous sins.

The privilege did not work out well in the cases of abuse, obviously, but no religion here is even close to having any kind of separate legal system recognized by the secular legal system. For example, Catholic Church laws and tribunes deciding marriage annulments has nothing to do with legal divorce here. It is totally irrelevant.

The abuses of which you speak haven't spread throughout the rest of the legal system, and I'm saying that as an attorney. Maybe that helps a little.

[roguevalley]

60. there have been great Archbishops in the past but I think this clown

is evangelically leaning. correct me, brits, if I am wrong.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

13. Now that's a fine racist sentiment, full of "values".

I'll have to show my Muslim gay boss your very "western enlightment" post!

[Rottenmac]

20. well now...

I'll have to show my Muslim gay boss your very "western enlightenment" post!

Right after you do that, ask him/her how they feel about Sharia law and Homosexuality. (I'm not 100% sure, but I'm PRETTY sure it goes something like "DEATH TO HOMOSEXUALS."

Ibn Abbas and Abu Huraira reported God's messenger as saying, 'Accursed is he who does what Lot's people did.' In a version . . . on the authority of Ibn Abbas it says that Ali had two people burned and that Abu Bakr [Muhammad's chief companion> had a wall thrown down on them. (Mishkat, vol. 1, p. 765, Prescribed Punishments)]

So maybe... JUST MAYBE you might take that into effect.

EDITED

British Imam says "It's OK to kill gays"

[annabanana]

72. I'm sure some fundie can find it in the bible too. . . . . .n/t

[NashVegas]

22. It Sounds Like

Your Muslim gay boss has already adopted Western values.

[Xithras]

42. You need to study the Enlightenment

It's the 17th century movement that all modern democratic ideals, and the concepts of freedom, are based upon. It, along with it's subset "The Age of Reason", established that the fundamentals of law should be equality, freedom, and knowledge, and NOT blind religious faith and the rule of oligarchs.

Many historians will correctly point out that the majority of historical friction between the muslim world and the western world boils down to competing philosophies on rule...the Islamic world never had an equivalent of the Age of Enlightenment. Even during it's most advanced and learned period, the rule of the people was still subjugated beneath the tenets of religion.

I actually read an interesting (and depressing) book which posited that the Muslim world was actually entering an age of enlightenment from the mid-1800's to WWI. Religious practice was at an all time low, the region was modernizing at an incredible clip, and the Ottoman Empire had started to disintegrate under a rising wave of ethnic nationalism that predominantly wanted freedom from Ottoman rule. The nations that were trying to pull themselves from the Ottoman thumb were primarily based on Enlightenment ideals that spread across the empire from the Balkans. Most historians will tell you that, given another 50 or so years free of outside influence (i.e., by the 1950's) most of the middle east would have been run by secular governments.

Then the Ottomans got into WWI. When they submitted to the Allies, we correctly broke the empire up, but rather than leaving them to themselves, the European nations occupied the region and ran them essentially as colonies. The Muslim Enlightenment was crushed, and the movements towards freedom were put down in favor of the establishment of governments favorable to their liberators (i.e., governments willing to sell their people out for profit). This created repression among the people, repression lead to rebellion, and militant Islam became the unifying ideal. None of it would have happened if not for the "empire builders".

[rayofreason]

44. Shall I pile on?

In addition to the fine comments left by other posters, I would like to take you to task for referring to boricua79's post as "racist". Islam is not a race. Moreover, boricua79 did not say that all muslims adopt those extreme attitudes, however, one could make the case that in the world today the only legal system calls for the death penalty for homosexuality is Sharia, and that this penalty is actually imposed in some countries, notably Iran.

The fundamental idea underlining the post is correct. Western legal system are founded on enlightenment values and a notion of popular sovereignty, whereas Sharia is founded on the notion that only God is sovereign, that all legislation flows from His word as revealed in the Quran, and that human legislation is illegitimate if seen to be in conflict with God's law.

[sam sarrha]

49. and did your muslim gay boss come here to keep from having his F'n gay head chopped off ..??

[Taverner]

53. Well, FTR, Sharia law is neither enlightened nor has it values

Sexist racist hateful religious B S

[boricua79]

55. you do that

and while you're at it, tell him to call back home and ask his relatives in the Middle East to stop stoning gays and arresting Western women.

And take your "high horse" attitude and shove it.

[TankLV]

68. here here !!! Good words. The TRUTH has not been better spoken...l

We DON'T need or WANT fucking muslim INTOLERANCE...

just as we would rightly condemn the idiot Cristians who would impose their brand of religion on everyone else...

[roguevalley]

61. I find it hard that moderate Muslims don't speak up. They have allowed

by their dithering around for the idiots of their faith to become the model of what Islam is in the minds of half the world. Just as the dorkasses of Christianity make me want to hide under a bed, so do the extremists of Islam. Your boss might be very enlightened about this issue but too many others aren't and if they are, they are not speaking up. A man is now condemned to death for downloading data about some abuse and how many damned times do we hear about women getting stoned? Until people stand up and say this is not what Allah/God/Yahwah means, then what can you expect from the world?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. There is no Islamic Central, no Muslim pope

There are only local leaders.

That's why Indonesia has a laid-back form of Islam and Saudi Arabia has an uptight one.

[TankLV]

67. Sorry, but that poster is CORRECT...it's not "racist" in the LEAST...

I prefer the ENLIGHTENMENT and WESTERN VALUES over IGNORANT BIGOTED RELIGIOUS CLOWNS...

PERIOD!

[Ellen Forradalom]

12. One law for all is the basis for equality.

He must think equality is a bit of a danger.

[AP]

89. The US has 51 different sets of laws.

[dflprincess]

91. The majority of which have their roots in English Common Law

n/t

[leftynyc]

15. A Muslim court settling

marriage disputes? With their treatment of women, I don't think so. And if they want a religious divorce, they can do it through their mosque but would still have to get a civil divorce to make it legal. I assume more than one wife is not allowed under British law.

[sam sarrha]

48. and a civil divorce will shame the family and she knows she will have bad accident

wake the hell up, what part of religious subjugation of women don't you understand

[leftynyc]

50. I understand everything about it

that's why I'll fight ANY implementation of sharia law here in the US. Britian is making a mistake by kow towing to the muslims here and it's exactly because of it's subjugation of women. If the husband doesn't want a civil divorce, tough shit. And if anything happens to his wife, throw his ass in jail - I mean REALLY crack down on this kind of stuff so they'll either leave or behave. I'm tired of religious freaks.

[leftynyc]

71. I'd also like to point out

that just giving into these kinds of customs allows the MEN in these situation to continue to treat their women like shit. My position is that if you don't punish this behavior, and punish it severely, they have no reason to change. They can just continue to treat their wives and daughters like cattle. I mean your position is that we must allow them to continue their "customs" because it's their culture. I say if their culture allow the subjugation of women, we, in the west, have the obligation to do what we can to change that behavior.

[supernova]

18. Makes me feel icky

*As long as people use it as a form of arbetration, maybe it's ok. However, you don't really know to what extent one party (usually the female) has been coerced into this process. And I find that scary.

*They would still have to go through a civil divorce court to make it legal. These courts would be ceremonial only.

As for me, no way on Earth, Heaven, or Hell would I live in an area where religious law (Xtain, Jewish, or Muslim) replaced secular law. They're the reason we have secular laws to begin with.

[PassingFair]

21. I hope the UK comes down on this as hard as Canada did:

From the side bar:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4236762.stm


Sharia law move quashed in Canada

snip>Mr McGuinty, who had been studying Ms Boyd's report since last December, said he was concerned religious family courts could "threaten our common ground".

He told the Canadian Press news agency: "There will be no Sharia law in Ontario. There will be no religious arbitration in Ontario. There will be one law for all Ontarians."

'Loud and clear'

Women's rights activist Homa Ar-Jomand, who helped organise the rallies last Thursday, said she was delighted by the decision.

[NashVegas]

23. How Many Muslims Go West to Escape Sharia?

The majority of the UK Muslims don't support this.

[supernova]

24. I would hope not

And I have to wonder at the mentality of people who live in the UK and want the very thing they came to escape? Doesn't make sense.

[PassingFair]

25. Archbishop fears losing certain "powers" of his OWN church.

What favors shown to the Church of England may
be demanded by other religions.

THAT is probably why "Archy" views this
as "inevitable"....

[supernova]

27. Spot on!

:thumbsup:

Perhaps certain sectors of the immigrant commuity will force the UK to look at sep of church/state issues in the future.

[nels25]

45. You might be surprised

I read about a movement of Islamics in Canada several years ago wanting to use Sharia law in non criminal matters, If I recall correctly the part of canada that was involved bought it.

I could be wrong though.

Any way no way do I want my daughter or wife to ever have to suffer through Sharia.

[eib1]

57. Then they shouldn't have to deal with it.

They live in a western country.
Let them be as free as the rest of us. Their faith will take care of itself.
Why don't the rest have that kind of confidence?

[roguevalley]

62. I hope they speak up. I love the UK and I admire the principles of

Islam but this shit is fucked up.

[TankLV]

69. ONE law for ALL - THAT should be the ONLY policy...

if you don't like it - shove it...

And I can't put it stronger...

[liberalhistorian]

28. I think it's bullshit. Choosing between "cultural loyalty or

state loyalty?" Um...........if they don't want to follow the laws and culture of the state they're immigrated to, maybe they shouldn't have emigrated. If they want to be a part of the UK, then they need to follow UK rules, plain and simple.

And let's not kid ourselves. It would NOT be voluntary for the women, period. I would strongly fight against this if I were a UK citizen.

[mooseandsquirrel]

29. Sharia law in Britain seen unavoidable

Source: Reuters

By Paul Majendie

LONDON (Reuters) - Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, spiritual leader of the world's Anglicans, said on Thursday the introduction of some aspects of Islamic Sharia law in Britain was unavoidable.

snip

Read more: http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL0790681320080207

[Ellen Forradalom]

30. Previously posted

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3172070

BTW are you the mooseandsquirrel from the Bartcop forum?

[Ytzak]

31. If fair is fair, the Archbishop is right...

If you accommodate one religion in law then all should be accommodated

This is an excellent reason why every vestige of religion should be eradicated from the law.

[sam sarrha]

35. better cover up your girlfriend or you could see her head bashed in with rocks during foot ball half

time for showing too much arm.... or hair or stepping outside to get the mail un escorted

the end of civilization is very near with the first law passed to accommodate religion

[Tempest]

36. Read the article

Before starting in with the hyperbole.

The Jews already have special rights and courts in England for civil issues in the same way.

[Book Lover]

54. And the same problems arise

http://www.safiyyah.ca/wordpress/?p=312

This link refers to a Canadian case, but the principle is the same.

[roguevalley]

63. Isn't it amazing that because Henry the Eighth was such a dipshit

that we suffer from his bs even to this day? If he had had a damned son with his first wife, none of this shit would be happening.. I imagine in another dimension, he had one and everyone is fine and dandy.

[Critters2]

81. As an ordained woman in a tradition born of the English Reformation,

I don't see how continued Roman Catholic hegemony would be "find and dandy". I like being ordained and worshiping in the vernacular, among other things. But that's me.

[Penance]

83. Speaking as a former resident of Ireland...

I question whether your ordination was worth the oppression and deaths of millions of my people due in no small part to the retention of their religion. But that's me.

[Critters2]

84. I'm descended from Huguenots. The fine, upstanding Roman Catholic Church

tried to completely wipe out my ancestors and nearly succeeded. Six of one, half dozen of another.

[Penance]

88. Tu Quoque

I guess you're right. As long as your sect's actions were not as bad as the Catholics, it's not a problem. What's a few dead irishmen compared to as women can be ordained and you beat the Catholics to the vernacular mass by 4 centuries?

[Critters2]

94. So, the deaths of my ancestors are acceptable, since they're not Catholic or Irish?

And no concern about the ongoing Catholic oppression of women? Welcome to my ignore list.

[kestrel91316]

32. Don't the Brits NEED tourist dollars?? Because they are sure gonna

lose a lot of them if they institute sharia.

[libodem]

33. Well, ya run them out of their

homeland and you have to expect that they will bring their customs into yours. Fair enough.

[roguevalley]

64. Not fair enough. In India, some expect their damned wives to burn

on their pyre with the dead husband. Bringing their dipshit ideas with them is crap. I would never go to another country and expect to have my American ways trump the local stuff.

[Hugabear]

34. More Islamophobia, I see

The right-wingers in the US have been beating this drum for awhile now, bemoaning the "Islamization" of Europe. It's all part and parcel of their plan to get us to take action against Muslims, before "they take control of us"

[Hamlette]

38. what are "sharia-compliant mortgage products"?

[Hamlette]

39. oops...should have googled first

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/living/mortgages.shtml

Seems like a creative way to get around paying interest which is prohibited under sharia law. (The bank buys the home and they pay "rent" to the bank for 30 years then they own the home...or a variant of that).

Oh the thinks people do to worship fairy tales. . .

[Xithras]

37. Sharia is incompatible with freedom and equality.

Sharia, for example, prohibits muslim women from marrying non-muslim men, but permits muslim men to marry anyone they want. Women have very few divorce rights...except in the case of male impotence. Blasphemy is prohibited, even among non-muslims...at least blasphemy against Islam. Religious conversion merits death, and sex out of wedlock will get you 100 lashes.

I doubt that any of these aspects would be implemented in our lifetimes, but it's beyond doubt that they WILL be implemented SOMEWHERE if it's permitted. There will always be people who want to become more observant, and over time they will eventually build up majorities in areas and implement their ideals.

This is why no religious law from ANY religion should ever be implemented as binding in a secular nation. Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu...the religion is irrelevant. Just about every religion has aspects that infringe on the rights of nonbelievers and impose limitations on the freedom of its members. If people wish to willingly abide by those aspects, it is their right to do so...but those aspects should never carry the force of law.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. "There's one law for everybody" is a blessing.

It's also a bit self-serving. The archbishop of canterbury would very much like a parallel religious judicial system.

[Sultana]

51. Sharia law is hell

I have lived under it and only those in power benefit from it.

:mad:

[Taverner]

52. That fucker is insane

KEEP YOUR RELIGION OUT OF MY GOVERNMENT!!!

[eib1]

56. It worked for thousands of years:

Quote:
But Dr Williams says the argument that "there's one law for everybody... I think that's a bit of a danger".
end quote.

It was never a danger before.
It need not be a danger now.
Britain can retain the western heritage or refuse it.
I don't think the Sharia will ever be reconciled to western precedents of law and custom.

[TankLV]

66. They better damn well not even TRY to get that here in the US...

This IDIOCY has got to be CONDEMNED LOUNDLY AND CLEARLY...

Fuck this shit.

NO theocracy - muslim OR christian...

[LeftishBrit]

70. I don't want either Sharia law, or Archbishops getting involved in what the laws should be.

I don't think other British people will want this either. We are a very secular nation.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. If the UK is such a secular nation...

Then why are there Orthodox Jewish courts?

From the article:

'Dr Williams noted that Orthodox Jewish courts already operated, and that the law accommodated the anti-abortion views of some Christians.'

Personally I'm opposed to any religion entering the judicial system, but what comes out strongest in this thread is that Americans who know bugger all about what Sharia actually is seem to think they're a bunch of experts on the matter...

[muriel_volestrangler]

74. The ABC is of course already involved in law-making

along with the other Anglican bishops who get House of Lords' seats by right. I'd love to see Gordon Brown, who thinks what Williams said is wrong, admit that having an established church isn't such a good idea after all. But I don't expect he'll be able to be that intellectually honest.

[LeftishBrit]

76. I agree on this..

most religious involvement in law nowadays (e.g by Bishops in the House of Lords) is very symbolic and limited; but I don't want to see any expansion of it, and I think that the time is long overdue for disestablishment.

Orthodox Jewish and Muslim groups, and churches, make some advisory decisions for their own 'flocks' now; and it may be that this is all that the bishop was referring to - but it should continue to be made clear that the law of the land is unrelated to, and overrides, any specific religious group's decisions.

[amandabeech]

79. The Swedes de-nationalized the Church of Sweden (Lutheran) a few years ago.

The CofS is no longer the state church. I don't recall what the financial arrangements were, but now all churches are equal in Sweden and the Swedish world has not ended.

It may be time for the English to take a look at what Sweden did.

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. FYI, full transcript of interview, and the lecture, here:

radio interview

lecture to the lawyers

Note that he compares this not only to the religious court for Orthodox Jews already in Britain, but also to Native American community jurisdiction in Canada (or, if you want, in the US). Food for thought.

[ohio2007]

77. What most Brits think of the matter

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a5b_1202657423


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASqJAT1W3r0

but the MSM wants to give the minority the voice.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. What it looks like to me is that

1) He was actually proposing limited application for personal disputes (not that I agree with that either) instead of a whole separate legal system for Muslims

2) The right-wing press (all the quotes are from right-wing newspapers) took his remarks out of context

3) All the resentment of Muslim immigrants came straight to the surface, sometimes in hysterical form

If you read the comments on the BBC website, you find that a lot of people go on and on about Britain's Christian heritage. One has to wonder how many of these people who want to defend that country's Christian heritage have been inside a church since last Easter or maybe twenty Easters ago.

[apocalypsehow]

85. My concern would be the treatment of women under such procedures

along with the hyper-sexist - indeed, misogynistic - attitudes that often goes along with such religious tribunals. Heck, with patriarchal religions (not just Islam) period. That said, I need to study more about the issue to have an informed opinion.

[bobthedrummer]

86. This Archbishop of Canterbury is also a druid, yet he disputes that too.

"When a druid isn't a druid" (BBC 8-6-2002)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2173194.stm

:silly:

[MrSlayer]

87. No, it isn't "unavoidable".

If you come to live in someone else's country you live by their laws or get out, period. No one should ever alter their laws to accomidate religious extremists of any sort. This guy is whacked.

[Hekate]

92. Let's see...religious freedom ...human rights for women and girls... what to do, what to do...

When "religion" and "cultural practices" conflict with Common Law and written laws here in the West, our laws should have precedence.

Other countries practice slavery, and sometimes immigrants or legal residents bring their slaves with them in the form of household workers. But here, it is illegal. In Los Angeles a wealthy couple went to prison for bringing a child with them to be their household slave. (She slept on the kitchen floor, was kept out of sight and out of school, and this went on for at least 10 years.)

Similarly, we believe that women are full human beings and not slaves or idiots. Women must have the right of self-determination when making contracts (including marriage contracts), and underage girls must be protected from legal and sexual exploitation should their parents' culture/religion believe in childhood betrothals or child-marriages. If an adult consents to an arranged marriage, that's fine.

Human progress and human rights is what we are supposed to stand for.

I believe that Sharia Law must remain right where it developed, in places where women and girls unfortunately have the status of chattel. We have our own laws. We respect religious law -- insofar as it does not conflict with civil law. There's a lot of latitude, but not an infinite amount. We really should not be confused about that.

Hekate

[Endangered Specie]

95. I don't get to say this as often as I should, but... Thank God I live In America!

and not there!