Gunman opens fire in City Council meeting

[MarkInLA]

Source: MSNBC.COM

KIRKWOOD, Mo. - A gunman opened fire at a city council meeting in suburban St. Louis Thursday night, hitting the mayor, two council members and at least two other people, according to a newspaper. There was no immediate word on whether anyone was killed.

Police shot the gunman, who had hit Kirkwood Mayor Mike Swoboda, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, which had a reporter at the meeting.

Also shot were a police officer, council members Michael H.T. Lynch and Connie Karr, and Public Works Director Kenneth Yost, the correspondent, Janet McNichols, told the newspaper.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23059784/

---

Is it just me or are these random shootings becoming more prevalent?

[ursi]

1. jeezus

[ursi]

50. 6 dead total

6 dead after gunfire at Mo. meeting

KIRKWOOD, Mo. - A gunman with a history of acrimony against civic leaders stormed City Hall during a council meeting Thursday night, killing two police officers and three city officials before law enforcers fatally shot him, authorities said. The mayor was critically injured in the rampage.

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The victims at the meeting in suburban St. Louis were killed after the gunman rushed the council chambers and began firing as he yelled "Shoot the mayor!" according to St. Louis County Police spokeswoman Tracy Panus. Two people were wounded before Kirkwood police fatally shot him, she said.

Panus said the names of the victims would not be released until a news conference Friday morning. But the wounded included Mayor Mike Swoboda, who was in critical condition late Thursday in the intensive-care unit of St. John's Mercy Hospital in Creve Coeur, hospital spokesman Bill McShane said, declining to discuss the nature of the injuries. McShane said another victim, Suburban Journals newspaper reporter Todd Smith, was in satisfactory condition.

The gunman killed one officer outside City Hall, then walked into the chambers and shot another before continuing to fire, Panus said.

Janet McNichols, a reporter covering the meeting for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, told the newspaper that the 7 p.m. meeting with about 30 people had just started when the shooter rushed in and opened fire with at least one weapon. He started yelling about shooting the mayor while walking around and firing, hitting police Officer Tom Ballman in the head, she said.

Public Works Director Kenneth Yost was shot in the head, and council members Michael H.T. Lynch and Connie Karr also were hit, she said.

more...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080208/ap_on_re_us/missouri_shooting;_ylt=Ai48Vk3NqGjioFGqAwxcnlZvzwcF

[Tesha]

56. Just another day in the land of "More Guns for Everyone!"

Every day, on average, guns kill eighty-some Americans.

And as is so common, this guy was known to be an anti-
social nutball, but he still had his guns, alrighty!

Tesha


(And don't bother lecturing me about "But many of those
people are suicides. And a few are bad guys. ...")

[liberalhistorian]

62. Thank you!

Very well-put, unfortunatly, the guns uber alles people are spinning away, with their usual bullshit. How many of us have to die and how much blood has to be spilled before they finally GET IT?

[derby378]

78. Get WHAT, exactly?

The concept that we should be left with outdated and antique weaponry while those who have no respect for the law wind up with all the modern technology to oppress us with?

You want to tackle violent crime, do it. Just don't shift the focus to picking on the innocent and the law-abiding.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beevul]

114. And YOU are out of line.

And if the NRA didn't have alot of gun nuts propping it up, it couldn't lean on the government to allow guns in public. And not only bad guys have guns, idiot. Anybody with a gun can lose control and cost this country another 5 or six lives. I understand that doesn't mean much to you, but to people with a conscience, it means alot.

Another personal attack from they that claim personal attacks is all they ever encounter when trying to debate fairly and honestly. I'm shocked. And anyone with a car can suddenly lose control and cost this country another 5 or 6 lives. And all the registration, insurance and testing can do NOTHING to prevent it. I understand that this doesn't mean much to you, but it does to anyone with so much as a shred of honesty or principal.


In other news...80 + million gun owners in possession of 200 + million guns didn't kill anyone today.


Don't let that get in the way of your little crusade, or interfere with getting your hate on...misplaced though it is. Maybe you should quit being selfish though, and think of the damage your little hate based crusade costs the Democratic party...


And don't bother with the "guns aren't a factor in elections or politics" line...its been thouroughly deconstructed already.

[Newsjock]

2. Several believed dead

'It is clearly believed that several people have died.' -- KMOV's reporter, live.

Live stream here: http://kmov.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=57410&live=yes

---

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/C9F47E8DFBA0B871862573E90007E20F?OpenDocument

A man walked into a Kirkwood city council meeting Thursday night and shot several people, including the city’s mayor and several council members.

A correspondent for the Post-Dispatch who was attending said the 7 p.m. meeting had just started when the man rushed into the council chambers yelling and began opening fire with at least one weapon. She identified the man as Charles Lee "Cookie" Thornton.

"He came from the back of the room," said Janet McNichols, the correspondent. "He kept yelling ‘shoot the mayor’ and he just walked around shooting anybody he could."

McNichols said the shooter first fired at a police officer at the meeting, then began firing at the council. As people went to the floor, the shooter walked toward the council area.

[derby378]

3. Just announced on MSNBC: Two policemen killed in shootout

Damn. My heart goes out to the families of those two officers. :cry:

[MissDeeds]

4. Just horrible

My brother is in law enforcement and my husband is a former mayor and council member...makes my blood run cold. Sympathies going out to the families of the dead.

[Paladin]

17. And Yet, LIke The Rest Of The GU Gun Activists,......

....you look upon incidents like this, one after another after another, as an acceptable trade-off for the sort of free and easy fireams ownership you insist upon.

[derby378]

20. Your words, not mine...

And besides, could you kindly let the families grieve a little before trying to politicize this?

[liberalhistorian]

32. Maybe families wouldn't have to grieve

over incidents like this that go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on if the gun nuts weren't so nutty about their damned guns. As a columnist said after the VT tragedy, "we are getting tired of prying your guns from your cold, dead hands."

[derby378]

33. Lumping law-abiding gun owners with Seung-hui Cho isn't going to help your cause

Why not try to reduce violence of all kinds in America and take aim at the root causes of what causes all this violence instead of focusing on just one kind of violence to the exclusion of all others?

[lastliberalintexas]

47. Because that's too difficult

It's much easier to pass gun regulations, 3 strikes laws and mandatory sentencing guidelines which actually do nothing to truly reduce violent crime. How dare you expect Americans to have attention spans longer than a gnat and politicians to work on solutions that won't come to fruition prior to the next election- which is, you know, a mere 2 years away. Education, jobs, economic progress, family and community support programs- things like that cost money and take time, neither of which Americans are very willing to spend these days. Much easier to just pass a bill. Or something.

[liberalhistorian]

63. Blahblahblah. Blahblahblahblahblahblahblah

blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah

Same old, same old bullshit spinning from the Guns Uber Alles crowd. How much blood is going to be enough for you?

[CreekDog]

105. It's near impossible to pass gun laws in this nation

Or maybe you didn't notice that there is no assault weapons ban and that the last time we had one it was watered down significantly.

[zanne]

90. When is your heart transplant?

You're in dire need of one.

[sendero]

60. You live in lala land..

... like the rest of the people in the world who think you can fix every social problem with legislation.

THERE IS NO LAW IN THE WORLD YOU CAN PASS, NO ENFORCEMENT ACTION POSSIBLE, THAT WOULD KEEP A FIREARM OUT OF THE HANDS OF AN AMERICAN WHO WANTS ONE.

Grow the FUCK UP.

[liberalhistorian]

61. "Grow up" is a term used by people, along with "get a life", when

they have no other argument, it's a childish foot-stamping. Yes, that may be true that people who want them can get firearms no matter what. But guess what? We can make it as difficult as possible for the wrong people to get them, and we can maybe, just maybe, try and have just a wee bit more security and tightening up. For instance, why was someone able to just walk into a council meeting and start shooting? Why was someone able to just walk into a college building and start shooting? Why was someone able to just walk into a fucking shopping mall at fucking Christmas and start shooting? Etc., etc., etc., etc., etc, etc, etc., etc., ad infinitum. There ARE enforcement actions you can take to keep people from doing such things, even simple security measures to keep guns out of certain areas at least. We're just too fucking concerned with the "right" for anybody, anywhere to own as many guns as they want whenever and however they want.

This shit doesn't happen in other countries BECAUSE THEY DON'T ALLOW IT. They value the lives of their citizens more than they value guns uber alles. I'm getting goddamned sick and tired of worrying about somone opening fire wherever I go and people shouldn't fucking have to live like that. But no, we go in an even worse direction. Now we're jumping up and down screaming for the right to have firearms inside schools and the national parks, for Christ's sake. The more these things happen, the crazier the guns uber alles people get. Unfortunately, Congress is right in their pockets. Fuckers.

[derby378]

79. Your side has had 40 years to make gun control work, and failed

That's because your compatriots insisted on confiscating and banning firearms instead of encouraging law-abiding citizens to be more responsible about gun ownership and gun safety. Guess how that plays with people such as I?

So now we're going to have a place at the table, whether Obama and Clinton like it or not. Let's work the problem together and take on violent crime the right way for once.

[liberalhistorian]

106. It hasn't worked because republicans won't let it

be enforced and because too much of Congress is in the pocket of the NR fucking A, which even once came out against the banning of "cop killer" bullets, the motherfuckers. I'm getting sick of hearing about gun "rights" when we now have to worry about going ANYWHERE for fear of some nutball with a goddamn gun walking in and blowing us away when we're going about our daily business. Where is our right to be free from shit like this?

And "my compatriots"? Sounds like you're on the wrong board and in the wrong party. And gun control does not mean confiscating and banning all firearms. It means commonsense things like certain people shouldn't have them, tighter background checks including even at private gun shows (something YOUR "compatriots" have fought successfully, thank you very fucking much), not being allowed to carry them in certain common public areas, etc., etc. ALL of which YOUR "compatriots" and the NRfuckingA have fought off. Why? Because they and you consider your precious guns and your god-given right to have however many of them whenever and wherever you want without even many security checks to be more important than OUR rights and OUR security and OUR right to be free of this kind of shit, which happens every single fucking day. So, thanks for nothing. You wanna go with your "compatriots" to the other side of the table, go right fucking ahead. We won't miss you.

[beevul]

113. Wrong much?

"Congress is in the pocket of the NR fucking A, which even once came out against the banning of "cop killer" bullets..."

Try stepping into the present. The 80's are tired of your misunderstanding and misrepresentation of THAT issue. And the NRA represents 4 million gun owners. That leaves just 80 million plus of us that don't belong to the NRA and would like to keep our legally owned property thanks very much.

"And "my compatriots"? Sounds like you're on the wrong board and in the wrong party. And gun control does not mean confiscating and banning all firearms. It means commonsense things like certain people shouldn't have them, tighter background checks including even at private gun shows (something YOUR "compatriots" have fought successfully, thank you very fucking much), not being allowed to carry them in certain common public areas, etc., etc. ALL of which YOUR "compatriots" and the NRfuckingA have fought off. Why? Because they and you consider your precious guns and your god-given right to have however many of them whenever and wherever you want without even many security checks to be more important than OUR rights and OUR security and OUR right to be free of this kind of shit, which happens every single fucking day. So, thanks for nothing. You wanna go with your "compatriots" to the other side of the table, go right fucking ahead. We won't miss you."

Oh the bluster...Private gun shows? What the hell is a private gun show, and how often do THEY happen? Cite please.

Not being allowed to carry guns in certain public places? Oh, you mean like schools like VT...and shopping malls...

The measures you and your "compatriots" proposed, supported, and stand behind...ARE FAILING. I say again...FAILING. Thats not republicans fault. Thats not gun owners fault. Thats the fault of believing that those measures would actually do something, and the only people that EVER believe that, are YOU and your "compatriots". Don't you dare pass the buck. This one is on you and yours.

Your gun free zone in VT. Why didn't YOUR gun free zone work eh?

You said alot of things, NONE of which have you backed up.

Its just so much hot air until you do.

[derby378]

117. "Wrong party?" Sorry, man, but I walked away from the Repukes a long time ago

That's right, I was raised by parents who voted predominantly Republican. And so were many other DUers. I left the GOP for the same reason the rest of us did - I just couldn't deal with the bullshit anymore. When they started embarassing Bill Clinton on national television over the Monica Lewinsky affair, that was the last straw.

And it was Howard Dean who inspired me to become a Democrat back in 2003, because he inspired me with a vision of what the Democratic Party could become.

So yeah, I'm exactly where I belong. I may give Skinner and some of the other DUers headaches (including you), but I came to the realization that even when I was a nominal Republican, I believed in people's freedom to speak, to worship, to think for themselves. But Democrats celebrate those freedoms, while too many Republicans are willing to barter them away for an illusion of safety and security.

One more thing, and this is the part you're going to really hate: You need pro-RKBA Democrats like me. I've been paying attention to the history books, too. No Democrat has been able to win (and keep) the White House with a 50% + 1 majority since 1976. Gore won it in 2000, but we all know how Bush stole it from Gore with the help of James Baker, Katherine Harris, and his buddies in the Supreme Court. And neither McCain nor Huckabee is just going to roll over and let our Democratic nominee waltz into the Oval Office without a big nasty donnybrook. So you're going to need us, and in a bad way, because 50% + 1 sounds pretty damn good right now. And just as important as turning the White House blue in 2008 is keeping Congress blue in November 2010 ad beyond. I suggest you start thinking about where you want the Democratic Party to be in the long term instead of trying to overboard any Democrat who happens to own a rifle with a pistol grip.

My two cents...

[boilinmad]

76. Whatever....

........GUNS FUCKING SUCK !!!

[karlrschneider]

101. Teaching pigs to sing is a waste of time. Even I forget that sometimes.

:D

[Paladin]

99. Oh, Spare Me.

You've been around here more than long enough to know how this works: both sides of the gun argument base their respective stances on corpses. And every time there is yet another shooting incident that turns up in the DU forums---and Christ knows, there's never a shortage of them, particularly in the last few days--- both sides come galloping in to make their points just as soon as possible. So don't lay any of that sanctimonious boo-hoo-ing about grieving families on me, OK? After all, your side is the one trying your damnedist to assure that untold numbers of families suffer tragedies in the future from gun-inflicted violence in this country. My side is the one that's trying to do something about it.....

[liberalhistorian]

107. AMEN!

I can't being to describe my frustration with them and their endless spinning right now.

[beevul]

116. Spare you? SPARE YOU?

I wasn't going to reply to you...I had decided after our last little spat to just ignore what you say...But I have had enough. I though I made this clear last time, but apparently you need another dose of reality...

"You've been around here more than long enough to know how this works: both sides of the gun argument base their respective stances on corpses. And every time there is yet another shooting incident that turns up in the DU forums---and Christ knows, there's never a shortage of them, particularly in the last few days--- both sides come galloping in to make their points just as soon as possible. So don't lay any of that sanctimonious boo-hoo-ing about grieving families on me, OK? After all, your side is the one trying your damnedist to assure that untold numbers of families suffer tragedies in the future from gun-inflicted violence in this country. My side is the one that's trying to do something about it.....

That whole parargaph was mostly alot of nothing...except this:

"After all, your side is the one trying your damnedist to assure that untold numbers of families suffer tragedies in the future from gun-inflicted violence in this country. My side is the one that's trying to do something about it".

You sir, are full of shit. You know better than thinking that anyone on the pro-gun side wants "untold numbers of families suffer tragedies in the future from gun-inflicted violence in this country". Yet you said what you said.

Your side isn't trying to do anything about it. You just want to keep on doing the same UNSUCCESSFUL things you have been trying for a decade plus...and thats to attack and attempt to undercut the power of - those that support the private ownership of weapons. Even at the cost of millions of dead iraqi people, restrictions on womens rights to choose, and other important civil rights.

I said it before and I'll say it again:


Noone is more to blame for gun violence than those that try to force LAW ABIDING gun owners to choose, thereby contributing to losses by Democratic Party politicians that might otherwise have actually done something to lessen ALL forms of violence.

If thats you, and it sure looks like it is, then OWN IT, and learn from it...and until you do, every time you feel like pointing a finger, look in the mirror before you do.


Good day.

[Paladin]

118. I Stand By My Comments

Your response is absolutely ridiculous and unworthy of further comment.

[Pavulon]

27. Free??

Like the free and easy access to heroin and cocaine. Hookers and weed are banned. Good luck with a ban. They have a great history of success.

Fix the problem.

[bossy22]

42. you know what

everytime there is a shooting you guys always jump on the mantra "we need more gun control" without evening knowing the facts. All we know is that he used a gun, it never told us how he acquired his firearm or what type. For all we know he could have just built it in his basement, in which whatever gun control you proposed would have no effect. What im trying to say is not discussing whether gun control works or not, im saying lets not jump to conclusions before we know the facts.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

49. Welcome to DU.

[Rage for Order]

5. Why does the headline always say "Gunman", yet...

We never see "knifeman", "clubman", or "fistman" when someone is killed with a weapon other than a gun?

[MarkInLA]

7. What would you prefer?

"Man with a gun"? No matter how you say it, it's not going to reduce the number of murders by gun in this country, is it?

[Rage for Order]

15. Just an observation

It seems to me that the term "gunman" is only used to sensationalize the story. I understand the "If it bleeds, it leads" news mentality, but the use of "gunman" (but for some reason, never "gunwoman") has always puzzled me.

[Paladin]

18. You're Just Trying To Minimize Yet Another Gun Slaughter

And you're not being very successful at it.....

[Pavulon]

23. 5500 people died today in the US

statistically the number who dies from gun crime is insignificant. It is a political red herring that kills elections.

You have a much better chance of dying in your car. However you will not make the news..

[jasmine621]

35. You know you are taking a risk when you get in your car.

But who expects to be shot and killed at a council meeting? Each one of those 5500 deaths by auto is very significant to the loved ones of those killed. You can't minimize a death just because it's by guns instead of by a car. These aren't numbers being killed, these are people.

[Rage for Order]

24. Obviously, that's what I'm doing

Perhaps you should read post #16, time-stamped 3 minutes earlier than your post.

[liberalhistorian]

72. Don't bother, you might as well endlessly bang your

head against the wall. We're stuck with this shit happening and with being afraid of being gunned down wherever we go because of such spins and nonsense.

[Pavulon]

96. Propose a solution

Just ONE time I would like to hear a solution from someone on these vulture threads.

Solution= A legal method that could be implemented to deal with the problem of gun violence in the US.

I am all ears.

[bitchkitty]

108. Kind of a silly observation.

You don't see the words knifeman or clubman because they aren't words. Gunman is a word.

[daleo]

8. How about gun nut?

Just kidding.

What I meant was "nut with a gun".

[Rage for Order]

16. Either way

I don't mean to minimize this senseless violence, so I'll drop this line of inquiry. Perhaps it would've been better to pose the question in a thread of its own. My thoughts are with the victims and their families.

[Tesha]

57. It's pretty rare that a "knifeman" kills five people at a public meeting...

It's pretty rare that a "knifeman, clubman, or fistman"
kills five people at a public meeting with two of the
victims being armed police officers.

Generally, that sort of carnage *REQUIRES* a gun
(although I suppose bombs are the next big thing).

Tesha

[liberalhistorian]

73. Maybe because you can kill more people in a very, very short

time with guns than with knives, clubs, or your fists? You people really are stretching here, you know.

[Pavulon]

95. Google TATP

people are sitting around improvising simple primary explosives from over the counter materials. If you vaporized with a magic ray every firearm in the nation people WILL still find ways to kill other people. Guns can be made easily, the method is not the problem.

The INTENT is the problem. This is a cultural problem.

[MarkInLA]

6. This is at least the fourth big shooting story today

1. The LAPD shootout early today.

2. The husband shooting his wife who worked as a teacher in Ohio.

3. The would-be Super Bowl shooter (he planned a "massacre")

4. And now this.

[karlrschneider]

46. #2 wasn't a "big shooting" it was commonplace. #3 didn't happen.

#1 was a fairly typical criminal vs. cop event. The only thing worthy of notice in this story is that it took place in a "gun-free zone" which didn't turn out to be one.

[MarkInLA]

53. By "big", I meant that it made the headlines, that's all...

Do you not think that number of gun murders in this country is significant enough to warrant a discussion?

[liberalhistorian]

74. No, he doesn't. He doesn't care how many people

are killed by guns every single day, he only cares that people are allowed to have guns however, whenever and wherever they want.

[karlrschneider]

84. That is a Goddamned lie and you know it.

FU

[Paladin]

97. Prove That It's A Lie, KS

Or is the extent of your defense a bunch of silly abbreviated obscenities?

[karlrschneider]

100. How the fuck did you escape my ignore list? Well it's fixed now.

...

[Paladin]

103. On Your Ignore List? Imagine My Dismay...... (n/t)

[MarkInLA]

83. "Los Angeles siege leaves 5 dead, LAPD devastated"

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fivedead9feb09,0,6406442.story

Yeah, a fairly typical criminal vs cop event. You were right. It was no big deal. :sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Gunman opens fire at Kirkwood, Mo., public meeting

Source: Kansas City Star


The Associated Press

A gunman opened fire at a meeting of the Kirkwood City Council in suburban St. Louis Thursday night, hitting the mayor and several council members, according to a newspaper. There was no immediate word on whether anyone was killed.

Police shot the gunman, who had hit Kirkwood Mayor Mike Swoboda, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, which had a reporter attending the meeting.

The reporter said a police officer, council members Michael H.T. Lynch and Connie Karr, and Public Works Director Kenneth Yost also were shot.

The victims were taken to St. John's Mercy Hospital, but Kirkwood police told The Associated Press that no one was available to provide any information. St. Louis County police did not return several calls, though a news conference was scheduled for later Thursday.

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/480528.html

[Mojorabbit]

10. I think we will see

more shootings, robberies, domestic violence, etc as times get harder and people start to snap.

[billbuckhead]

12. Many 3rd world nations have a lower murder rate than the USA. Poverty is no excuse!

This is a moral failure and blaming it on poverty is wrong. Many poorer nations have much lower murder rates than the USA. Compare for yourself at this link---
<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita>

One thing Obama, Hillary and McCain all share, is a record of fighting the gun lobby.

[Pavulon]

13. Congrats..

first political post tying this event to gun policy..

pile all of the local shooting up from today and about 295 more people will die in their cars..

Gun Control is POLITICAL SUICIDE. If it comes up it WILL swing a general election.

BTW the swiss manage not to machine gun each other to death.

Cultural problem.

edit clarity

[Paladin]

21. There's A Poll Down In The Gun Dungeon....

...indicating that 48% of you DU gun activists are ready to vote Republican in this election. So any warnings of "political suicide" ring kind of hollow.....

[Pavulon]

25. Stupid Issue Politically

no candidate has the will or ability to make significant changes to the laws. Any promises will polarize people needlessly.

It is a worthless political issue.

[zanne]

91. You are amoral.

Your childish selfishness and your self=righteous outrage directed at people who want to take away your friggin' toys tells me that you don't care about anybody but yourself and your guns. Boy, are you ever going on Ignore.

[zanne]

92. Sorry, Paladin. I meant to reply to Pavulon. nt

[Paladin]

98. No Problem, Zanne; I Figured As Much. (n/t)

[Pavulon]

94. Big picture

now take a step back and take a fresh look. There are NUMEROUS unenforced gun control laws on the books now. There are effective measures on the books as well. Banning something does NOTHING. It has the REVERSE effect. Like the DRUG WAR.

The constitution is not a trifle thing. If you have a political will to change it, go for it. It has been done before. Prohibition, for example, was an amendment.

Ignoring a rational position is for children and people who are unable to form a decent rebuttal.

Almost all gun control returns NO measure of safety to citizens and costs votes.

It WILL swing a general election. The Party supports this position, wisely.

I do not further my position by posting on every thread involving a shooting death like some here.

[Tesha]

58. The Swiss probably also care for their mentally-unstable folks...

The Swiss probably also care for their mentally-unstable folks
rather than let them run around town endlessly causing trouble
until they end up machine-gunning down the town council.

Here, we do nothing about our paranoid delusional cases and
they then go buy guns to "solve" their problems.

Tesha

[Bozita]

26. Maybe it's not the poverty. Maybe a rapid slide into poverty is something different.

There's a lot of that going around here lately.

[Mojorabbit]

29. Most poor countries

are not suffering a decline. There is a difference in situations. In countries going from good to bad you see a lot of violence. Stress from lost jobs and trying to squeak by causes people to snap.
The crime rate always goes up when there is an economic downturn.

[Rick Myers]

11. There is a creepy reality to it... Sign of the times...

We are in deep kimchee.

[Ian David]

14. This sucks. Here's some info on Mayor Mike Swoboda

Why My City is Cool

Kirkwood Mayor Mike Swoboda signed onto the U.S. Mayors' Climate Protection Agreement on Earth Day 2006.

The Environmental committee appointed by Mayor Swoboda has been meeting regularly and has chosen as their motto "Kirkwood Living Green." Kirkwood is dedicated to preserving open space and creating walkable communities. They work to keep their urban forests healthy and regularly plant trees to support shade and reduce CO2.

The City of Kirkwood staff looks for energy efficient products and promotes Energy Star appliances. They have increased the pump efficiency of both water and waster water systems. They increased the use of an existing pump station from 0.5 million gallons per day to 2 million gallons per day for less than $700 per month in power. Their electric department is looking into using landfill methane for energy.

In addition, Kirkwood's Fleet and Building Service Director is the Executive Director of the St. Louis Regional Clean Cities program.



More:
http://coolcities.us/cityProfiles.php?city=102&state=MO

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. It's a neat little town

[OzarkDem]

Yes it is,

I used to live near there and know a lot of people who still live there.

It used to be a rather cool, liberal city along with Webster Groves. Great hangout for the young crowd in the 60's. First head shop I went to was in their downtown, the Spectrum.

[janx]

111. OH MY GOD...

:rofl: I would not even have remembered that. But you're right. It was there.

[jasmine621]

36. Looks like a great place to live and breathe. nt

[wildflowergardener]

37. yes it is

It is a nice place to live. Something like this is certainly a great shock. I grew up in Kirkwood and my parents still live there.

Meg

[jasmine621]

38. What is the population, demographics?

I might want to move there.

[OzarkDem]

39. Link here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkwood,_Missouri

In the city the population was spread out with 23.4% under the age of 18, 5.9% from 18 to 24, 27.6% from 25 to 44, 24.9% from 45 to 64, and 18.2% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 41 years. For every 100 females there were 84.1 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 79.4 males. The median income for a household in the city was $55,122, and the median income for a family was $72,830. Males had a median income of $51,515 versus $36,235 for females. The per capita income for the city was $32,012. About 2.8% of families and 4.6% of the population were below the poverty line, including 6.1% of those under age 18 and 3.6% of those age 65 or over.

Its in the midst of the suburbs in western, southwestern St. Louis county. Nice area. A lot of old historic homes.

[wildflowergardener]

40. population

Website says 27,324. It's basically a small suburb of St. Louis. Very good schools. One of the safest places you can live in St. Louis, which is why it's quite a shock. Houses are fairly expensive though, which is why I had to move to Webster Groves, which is a nearby suburb - you could get a little nicer house for the same price in Webster.

Demographics - well many more white people than black (90% white, about 7-8 percent black and small percentage of other races). The area that the shooter lives in is the area with the highest percentage of minorities and also where the other shooting of the Kirkwood police officer occurred. I recall schools be fairly evenly mixed as far as race goes - though many kids were bused in from the city - that was in the 80's though.

Here is a page with all details of demographics:
http://www.infoplease.com/us/census/data/missouri/kirkwood/demographic.html

Meg

[janx]

112. Actually, Kirkwood started integrating its local schools back

in the 60s. Robinson School was predominantly white, while Rose Hill School had mostly black students. So Kirkwood starting busing kids around. (I remember because I was on the bus.)

[janx]

110. I think I might know you!

:hi:

[wildflowergardener]

19. news

They just said on the news that 5 people were killed - 3 from inside the meeting and 2 policemen as well. 2 were brought to the hospital.

This is from channel 5 St. Louis.

I saw 4 police cars speed by tonight around 7 and wondered what had happened.

Meg

[MadMaddie]

22. The real problem will be "Mental Illness in America"....there is

probably a record for the guy that committed this crime. How did he get a gun?

In Seattle on New Years eve a young woman was stabbed to death by a homeless man. A man that had been recently released from 8-10 yearsof prison for stabbing or shooting a man to death at a bus stop. His records indicated that he was a threat to the public but they let him go anyway.

[bossy22]

45. mental illness in america

is not helped by our exceedingly spectacular non-existent health care system

[fed-up]

28. Charles Thornton, Appellant v. City of Kirkwood and Ken Yost, Respondents 2005

same guy?? my condo0lences to the families, this is awful.. :(

http://ci.kirkwood.mo.us/meetings/City%20Council/011807M.htm
January 18, 2007
CITY ATTORNEY REPORT

Mr. Hessel reported that Charles Thornton filed a lawsuit for a temporary restraining order. The request for the restraining order was denied.




http://www.courts.mo.gov/Courts/PubOpinions.nsf/ccd96539c3fb13ce8625661f004bc7da/aebbfbd50f3e650286256fee00466224?OpenDocument

Case Number: ED84580

Handdown Date: 04/26/2005

Plaintiff’s attempts to fight these citations in court.(FN1) Yost is the Director of Public Works for the City, a municipal corporation, and he is responsible for the enforcement of the Building, Property Maintenance, Health, Nuisance and Zoning Codes for the City. According to Yost’s affidavit filed in connection with Defendants’ motion for summary judgment, he exercises discretion in determining whether a violation of the City’s ordinances has occurred or whether to initiate a charge based upon the violation. He is not required to initiate a charge if he concludes that an ordinance has been violated; instead, he may issue a verbal or written warning or take no action, depending on what he considers appropriate under the circumstances.
Plaintiff is apparently a subcontractor who had been performing some construction or plumbing work on property at 299 McCullough Avenue, which is located in the City and owned by one William Allen.(FN2) In May 2001, Yost cited Plaintiff for numerous violations of the City’s ordinances relating to various building codes and allowing unlawful conditions or activities to exist on the property.(FN3) After Plaintiff was issued the citations, he returned to the property to continue working and was arrested by the City police for working without an approved site plan. A two-day bench trial was ultimately held in the City’s municipal court, and Plaintiff was found guilty of 34 of the 38 counts and assessed fines.
Pursuant to Rule 37.71 of the Missouri Rules of Criminal Procedure, Plaintiff requested a trial de novo and all 34 of the municipal court convictions were certified to the circuit court. At trial, Plaintiff presented the testimony of Thomas Klocke, who stated that Plaintiff was working as a subcontractor for him on May 17, 2001, at the subject property that was the location of two of the charges against Plaintiff.(FN4) Plaintiff apparently had never previously notified any City employee that he was working as a subcontractor on that date. The cause was submitted to the circuit court on only 32 counts, and Plaintiff was found guilty of 27 of the counts and fined.
In May 2002, Plaintiff’s attorney(FN5) filed a claim in the circuit court against Defendants alleging malicious prosecution and a violation of 42 U.S.C. section 1983. Plaintiff claimed that because he was found not guilty on a few of the charges after trial, the charges were initiated or prosecuted maliciously or in bad faith. Specifically, he claimed that he was charged with a violation of City ordinances 10-58 and 20-168(c) but that he was found not guilty of those charges. Plaintiff also alleged that he was taken into police custody and incarcerated for a period of time during which he suffered substantial monetary losses. In his amended petition, he prayed for judgment for compensatory damages in the amount of $10,000 and for punitive damages in the amount of $12,000,000, in addition to other costs and reasonable attorney’s fees.
Defendants moved for summary judgment on the basis that Plaintiff could not show all of the elements needed to pursue a claim for malicious prosecution in that he failed to show that the relevant proceedings terminated in his favor and the absence of probable cause for the prosecution. Defendants also argued that the City is protected from suit by the doctrine of sovereign immunity and that Yost is protected from suit by the doctrine of official immunity.

edited to add this

http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5345761

Shooting took place at Kirkwood City Council meeting. It was a meeting on zoning when a man walked in, said "All we want is justice" and started shooting. Unreal!

..

Occurred at City Hall and at Imo's. The Imo's is the same one that Michael Devlin worked. Not sure if there is a connection.
...

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/analysis.aspx?id=19647
..Federal court rejects council critic's First Amendment claims

By David L. Hudson Jr.
First Amendment scholar
02.07.08

A federal judge in Missouri has rejected the First Amendment claims of a man removed from Kirkwood City Council meetings for “repetitive, personal, virulent attacks” against council members.

Charles Lee Thornton had sued the city of Kirkwood after he was arrested twice (and later convicted) for disorderly conduct at two council meetings in 2006.

In May 2006, Thornton had the opportunity to speak during the public-comment portion of a council meeting that addressed the expansion of two businesses — a funeral home and a senior living facility. During the time reserved to discuss the funeral home, Thornton rose to speak about what he alleged was personal harassment of him by city officials, not the expansion of the business. He displayed a large poster with a picture of a donkey and made intemperate remarks about the mayor. Thornton then warned the funeral home owner that the city had a “plantation-mentality” and “jackass-like qualities.”

Thornton engaged in similar conduct after the presentation about the senior living center. He said the mayor was “sitting there looking stupid.” The mayor eventually ordered Thornton to leave the podium and called the police. When the police came to the podium, Thornton sat on the floor and refused to leave. He was arrested and later convicted of disorderly conduct. He has appealed his conviction to a state appeals court.

Similar events occurred at a June 2006 City Council meeting. During the public-comment portion, Thornton was allowed to speak, at which point he began: “Jackass, jackass, jackass … .” Eventually the mayor asked the police to remove Thornton, who again sat on the floor. Once again he was arrested and convicted of disorderly conduct.

Thornton later filed a federal lawsuit, contending that his First Amendment rights had been violated. U.S. District Judge Catherine D. Perry disagreed in her Jan. 28, 2008, opinion in Thornton v. City of Kirkwood. She applied a forum analysis, determining that the public comment portion of the meetings constituted a limited designated public forum that the city could reserve for certain groups and topics of discussion. She did not find the public-comment period to be a traditional public forum in which government restrictions on speech must pass strict scrutiny — the highest form of judicial review.

She noted that there was substantial confusion in the lower courts over the terms “limited public forum” and “designated public forum.” Perry ruled that a limited designated public forum is a subclass of a designated public forum in which restrictions on speech must be reasonable and viewpoint-neutral.

“As the meeting was a limited designated public forum, Kirkwood had the right to restrict the topic of discussion to the expansion of two businesses,” Perry wrote. Rather than addressing germane subject matter, “Thornton engaged in personal attacks against the mayor, Kirkwood, and the city council.

“Any restrictions on Thornton’s speech were reasonable, viewpoint neutral, and served important governmental interests,” Perry wrote. “Because Thornton does not have a First Amendment right to engage in irrelevant debate and to voice repetitive, personal, virulent attacks against Kirkwood and its city officials during the comment portion of a city council public hearing, his claim fails as a matter of law.”

[JBoy]

31. Some interesting stuff you dug up there - definitely the same guy

Reading this link: http://www.courts.mo.gov/Courts/PubOpinions.nsf/ccd96539c3fb13ce8625661f004bc7da/aebbfbd50f3e650286256fee00466224?OpenDocument

It looks like he was getting a ton of municipal citations for unlawfully operating a construction business, and that sent him off the deep end.

[RamboLiberal]

52. Yep this guy was well-known at the meetings

Thornton was well-known at City Hall, often making outrageous comments at public meetings, according to a 2006 article in the weekly Webster-Kirkwood Times.

The newspaper quoted Swoboda as saying in June 2006 that Thornton's contentious remarks over the years created "one of the most embarrassing situations that I have experienced in my many years of public service."

Swoboda's comments came during a council meeting attended by Thornton two weeks after the man was forcibly removed from the chambers. The mayor said at the time that the council considered banning Thornton from future meetings but decided against it.

"The city council has decided that they will not lower themselves to Mr. Thornton's level," Swoboda said at the meeting. "We will act with integrity and continue to deal with him at these council proceedings. However, we will not allow Mr. Thornton, or any other person, to disrupt these proceedings."

Thornton said during the meeting that he had been issued more than 150 tickets.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=4259970&page=2

[FourScore]

30. Five shot to death at City Council meeting in Missouri

Source: CNN

Seven people were shot, five of them fatally, Thursday evening at a police station and a City Council meeting in the city of Kirkwood, Missouri, police said.

Authorities shot and killed the gunman.

Two of those killed were police officers, said Tracy Panus, spokeswoman for St. Louis County police.

"We have what we believe to be our suspect," Panus said. "There's no reason for the Kirkwood residents to feel unsafe at this poin


Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/02/07/city.council.shooting/index.html

[Cronopio]

54. To paraphrase Eddie Izzard ...

Guns don't kill people, it's just that peculiar sound they make.

Don't blame the gun though. Never blame the gun, or the many who love it.

[NashVegas]

41. Zoning Meetings

Last year we had a man shoot himself at a town council meeting up in Clarksville. He had been denied an appeal on a zoning variance. He was deep in debt, IIRC and felt without it, his business would go under.

Money does funny things to ya.

[BadGimp]

43. When I was a teenager in FLA... [dawn tin foil hat]

When I was a teenager in Florida back around 72, I had the good fortune to be an honorary member of a Miami Eagle Scout troop (boy was a lucky mofo). This troop benefited greatly by the fact that members of the Miami PD would volunteer to serve as chaperons or team leaders. Heck we even had a 45ft slew at our beck and call, mored in Key Biscayne.

The thing that most impacted me about these Miami PD guys was the matter of fact way in which they would talk about how the Moon's phases would affect the type of crimes they would see on a given day or partial week. There were a few moon phases they knew well. The one they really hated was a "0% moon light" phase.

So as I pondered the seeming accelerated frequency of these mass killer news stories this week, (including the tornados in the S), I checked the moon phase for today on Google: "The new, .05 day old moon, 0% lit:"

And yes I do harbor some strong ideas about 9/11. For starters, what's up with those 3 large pools of molten metal that glowed hot for weeks after the towers fell? What melted that metal?

[bossy22]

44. first off

wha??? but thats not important

i will answer your fire question- well the reason it burned was that the fire was caused by jet fuel which burns very very hot, and when the building collapsed, it allowed for some oxygen to reach the fire. Around the fire there was probably plenty of fuel so it kept burning, and since it was covered, water could not reach it to cool it. Most of it wasnt metal to my knowledge but slow burning combustibles

[BadGimp]

82. you can do better than that

Please do some research on the temperature jet fuel burns at and for how long it burns. You will find that number to be lower than that required to melt steel, and the time it burns is intenti0onally very very brief.

Then take a look at the temperature Steel MELTS at. Not softens, melts.

The temperature required to cause steel to melt and pool like that, then glow hot for weeks can not and WAS NOT generated by jet fuel or anything else that was legally allowed into those towers.

Do your homework Mr. 97 posts and then get back to me.

[karlrschneider]

85. As an engineer, you make a really mediocre plumber.

:eyes:

[lebkuchen]

48. USA should be changed to OKC

Just another day at the OK Coral.

[lancer78]

51. I don't condone what happened

but the city where I live is double-charging some people for water and sewer. City officials can bring it on themselves sometimes.

[MarkInLA]

55. lol...You've got to be joking.

You're basically saying that city officials should expect to be shot if they overcharge residents for water and sewer services.

I'll just hope that I missed the sarcasm or irony in your comment.

[Pale Blue Dot]

59. Economic times are getting very tough.

Desperate times always push desperate people to commit acts of violence.

I expected to see a rise in incidents like this, and I expect that the increase will continue for the foreseeable future.

[villager]

64. Gunman Kills 5 People at City Council Meeting

Source: NY Times

Gunman Kills 5 People at City Council Meeting


Police officers stood guard outside City Hall in Kirkwood, Mo. More Photos >

By MONICA DAVEY

Five people were fatally shot and two others wounded on Thursday evening by a man who opened fire as a City Council meeting began in Kirkwood, Mo., a generally placid suburb of St. Louis, the authorities there said. The gunman was shot to death by police.

The violence began about 7 p.m., when the man approached a Kirkwood police officer in a parking lot near the police station and shot and killed the officer, a spokeswoman for the St. Louis County police, Tracy Panus, said late Thursday.

Moments later, the man appeared inside City Hall, a short walk from the Police Department, shot and killed another police officer and then fatally shot three city officials who were inside the council meeting, officials said. Two others at the meeting were also shot and wounded, one critically, Ms. Panus
said.

“We have what we believe to be our suspect,” she said. “We do feel like we have everyone accounted for.”

Witnesses told of chaotic scene in Kirkwood, a middle class community of about 27,000 people with a main street lined with shops and restaurants and many grand homes. As officers from departments from suburbs throughout the region swarmed into Kirkwood, many residents expressed disbelief and anger that such a thing could happen in there.

The authorities would not identify the dead late Thursday.

<snip>


Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/us/08missouri.html?hp

[MichaelHarris]

65. well it never would have happened

if everyone in the council meeting had been armed, even the babies.

[villager]

66. it's the lack of armed babies depriving the rest of us of our freedoms!

n/t

[MichaelHarris]

67. I totally agree

when babies are armed then only babies will have arms or something like that. Maybe it's, "you can have my gun when you pry it from the cold dead hand of a baby". Too many bumper stickers to remember.

[slackmaster]

81. Another perfectly normal person who suddenly "snapped" with no warning at all

...history of acrimony against city leaders...

...Thornton was not a stranger to the council, where he was often a contentious presence. In May 2006, he was handcuffed and pulled from a meeting. He was charged with disorderly conduct and released....

...Thornton frequently aimed his ire at the mayor and at Yost....

...In a ruling Jan. 28, U.S. District Judge Catherine D. Perry took into account that Thornton had been convicted twice of disorderly conduct for disrupting meetings in 2006 with off-point complaints about persecution by officials....

...Thornton's mother said that Kirkwood officials had kept after her son, “giving him tickets for everything they could.” She said she never suspected her son would be violent...


http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080208/news_1n8shoot.html

[davepc]

86. If he didn't shoot the armed police officer 1st then maybe it wouldn't of happened at all

but he went for the guy with a gun on his hip, which gave him enough time kill the the others...who had no ability to shoot back at him.

[orleans]

68. my god! how fucking bizarre! (more from your link)

Some witnesses said they had heard at least 15 gunshots, maybe more. About 30 people were believed to be at the meeting. Some tried to fight off the gunman by throwing chairs

The authorities did not identify the gunman, but The Post-Dispatch reporter and other witnesses identified him as Charles Lee Thornton, an independent contractor known as Cookie. Mr. Thornton was said to have often come to council meetings and to have had repeated disagreements with Kirkwood officials.

“He came from the back of the room,” Janet McNichols, the correspondent, told The Post-Dispatch. “He kept saying something about, ‘Shoot the mayor,’ and he just walked around shooting anybody he could.”

On the newspaper’s Web site, Ms. McNichols said she had looked up to see a police officer shot in the head, then saw the gunman shooting at a public works official. “After that, I was on my stomach under the chairs,” she said. “I laid on my stomach waiting to get shot. Oh, God, it was a horror.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/us/08missouri.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

[MichaelHarris]

69. I would say

Cookie was pissed off.

[Crunchy Frog]

70. Thank heavens we still have our second ammendment rights in this country.

I bet if those police officers had been armed, they would have been able to stop the guy.

[villager]

80. yes, yesterday's news certainly showed us how safe guns are making us!

n/t

[ikojo]

71. Kirkwood is also where kidnapper Michael Devlin

lived. Michael Devlin kidnapped Shawn Hornbeck and kept him captive, in plain sight, for four years. Shawn and another boy, Ben Ownby were rescued in January 2007.

Kirkwood is also where Kevin Johnson killed a police officer in 2005. Mr Johnson has since been sentenced to death for that killing. Mr Johnson said he was upset at the cops and reacted when he felt they did not respond quickly enough to a call to help his brother who died following a seizure.

Not quite the idyllic suburb that Kirkwood residents would like to believe it is.

Many tensions, particularly along racial lines (as there are in much of the St Louis area). Residents in the Meachem Park area of Kirkwood feel they are often singled out for greater law enforcement.

[Blue_Tires]

75. sad that so many instantly want violence to solve disagreements

[fascisthunter]

87. Yup... Just Look at Our Government

"You want diplomacy? What are ya some kinda fruity hippy liberal???? We need to bomb the shit out of 'them'."

[flashl]

88. This story resonates with me differently because I feel this situation

did not happen instantly.

More than once, I have been the 'cool down' person in situations after the 'establishment' group took great joy in yanking the chains of similar personalities. In these personal experiences, the ‘establishment’ types aggravated these individuals unmercifully and threaten their livelihoods. It was painful to watch people in authority play the proverbial cat and mouse game with other people's lives. Of course, everyone do not react the same while under relenting pressure from a city hall officals or persons in authority who can make your life miserable.

In the instances that I mentioned earlier, I just happened to be a person that those individuals trusted when they were approaching their destinations with a gun seeking payback.

Each individual knew that I respected them a human beings and they thankfully accepted my offer to talk it out before they acted in anger.

[soleft]

77. And what about the aborted shooting at the Superbowl

That was also over a City Council dispute.

When i think if Tom Delay on Hardball yesterday, saying he wanted absolutely on restrictions on the 2nd amendment - God i hope he never holds public office again.

[ckramer]

93. Live free (of parking tickets) or die

New Hampshire style...

Libertarians say everyone should have a gun.

Another way to reduce the population quickly.

[pinniped]

102. The first thing the gun-nuts on gun-nut websites want to know is what kind....

of gun was used.

"Oh no, I just hope it wasn't a black rifle."

They think these shooting rampages are staged by the U.N. or gun control groups to further propel their agenda. There are enough ticking time bomb gun-nuts in this country that there's certainly no need for them to 'program' someone to go off.

-------
I think the guy in San Diego that went on the armored bulldozer rampage was also mad at the city council for messing with his muffler shop or something like that.

[Paladin]

104. That's An Interesting Phenomenon, Isn't It?

I think our resident guncentrics swoop in and start talking about the esoterica of the firearms used, in a vain attempt to take attention off the tragic incidents themselves. It doesn't work.....

[janx]

109. Kirkwood is my home town! I just found out about this and

I remember that guy! Unbelievable!

[Canuckistanian]

115. Only in America

Believe me, the rest of the world watches these stories and wonders what the Hell America is doing telling other people how to run their lives.