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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:40 PM
Original message
Obama May Face Grilling on Patriotism
Source: Associated Press


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Sen. Barack Obama's refusal to wear an American flag lapel pin along with a photo of him not putting his hand over his heart during the National Anthem led conservatives on Internet and in the media to question his patriotism.

Now Obama's wife, Michelle, has drawn their ire, too, for saying recently that she's really proud of her country for the first time in her adult life.
Conservative consultants say that combined, the cases could be an issue for Obama in the general election if he wins the nomination, especially as he runs against Vietnam war hero Sen. John McCain.

"The reason it hasn't been an issue so far is that we're still in the microcosm of the Democratic primary," said Republican consultant Roger Stone. "Many Americans will find the three things offensive. Barack Obama is out of the McGovern wing of the party, and he is part of the blame America first crowd."

Opponents of Sen. John Kerry proved in the 2004 election that voters are sensitive to suggestions that a candidate is not sufficiently patriotic. The Democratic presidential nominee's campaign was torpedoed by critics of his Vietnam War record called the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, even though he won multiple military honors and was lauded by his superiors.





Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA_ATTACK_FODDER?SITE=MIPON&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT



<more at link>
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's breaking news?
Boy, the AP has its priorities screwed up.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yeah, this is the OLD stuff! nt
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Publish date and time: Feb 23, 12:00 PM EST
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Post One's point stands--it's OLD stuff. They can put a fresh date on it, but this has
been around the track twice already.

The new stuff is Michelle Obama's THESIS...their association with "domestic terrorists" from the Weather Underground, and the upcoming Rezko trial.

This looks like recycled filler to me.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
8.  I was checking to see if this had been posted
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 01:58 PM by themartyred
I believe it is best suited in the GD-P forum. There is nothing breaking about it other than Nedra's release date of her comments on it. Thanks for posting it!
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
54. It's the most popular story
on yahoo right now.So obviously a ton of people hadn't seen it.
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devilindisguise Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. I haven't seen it
My husband is a vet. He was angry because Obama didn't put his hand on his heart for the POA, but when I pointed out to him the scene where the National Anthem was played and Obama stood with his hands to his sides, - my darling went a little berserk. I would compare his anger to that of calling a woman's anger "bitchy". But of course we don't call men "bitch". What is the name for them getting furious? Anyone know? BTW - Hillary and the others had their hand over their heart while he stood there arms dangling down.
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hellbound-liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Swift Boat veterans and the rest of their right wing friends prefer a deserter like Bush
to someone who volunteered for combat like Kerry. I don't particularly care for their brand of "patriotism". Obama couldn't satisfy those nut jobs anyway. Piss on 'em!
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bulloney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Every Democratic presidential candidate has had his patriotism attacked by the RW smear machine
going back at least to Bill Clinton.

Why should we expect any different with Obama or Hillary, or whomever gets the Democratic nomination?
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. I can only say that the republicans patriotism has gotten 4000 Americans killed
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 02:05 PM by still_one
over 25000 seriously wounded, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqiis killed

If this what this country believes is patriotism, then the country does deserve what it is getting

It won't matter whether the nominee is Hillary or Barrack, they will paint the same trash on both of them. Need I remind you of the ABC pseudo documentary which blamed Bill Clinton for 9/11

Nothing will surprise me concerning the stupidity of Americans, and if they again vote against their own interests, those right wingers who are losing their housing and children in wars based on lies, deserve it.

Unfortunately, the innoncent will be punished also

However, I believe the young of this country realize the BS of the last 8 years, and also realize that if mccain does get in, they very likely will have a draft. They won't call it a draft, but it will be the same thing, and as far a women's rights, if they also ignore this situation, they also will face the consequences of a republican administration

As far as I am concerned we have had bush for two terms, if they elect a bush surrogate for a third time, as far as I am concerned it is 3 strikes and your out, and let the country pay for its ignorance and war mongering policies






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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Suggest you edit for "4000"
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Thanks /nt
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bulloney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. You're right. They won't call it a "draft."
Just like they call guerillas "insurgents" and invasion "occupation" and on and on.

And the dumb sheep who follow the RW blathering idiots on the radio will encourage this to materialize and they won't realize it until it's too late.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
43. It's not just the young, my friend....
A lot of us old foggies have seen this shit since Humprey and McGovern...

It goes back to McCarther and his hatred of FDR...

It goes back to the hatred of Wilson...

It's long and nasty and is one of the ugly currents that runs through American history...

Unfortunatly, people get all riled up about flag pins and salutes and all sorts of crap and vote for ass holes who make it more profitable to lobby the government than to serve the government...

The soldier has always come last when the ass wipes are in charge...

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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Unfortunately, I am also what you are classifying as "old foggie", so I am not so young
You would have thought we would have learned something by now?




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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Duplicate /nt
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 07:36 PM by still_one




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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
7. The propaganda will now increase. By October media will hammer home their message
attacking his patriotism and building up McCain as a God. CNN, MSNBC and Fox "News" will be at full throat on this. Let the flag waving begin. 'Murcans will go to Wal Mart and buy their flags for their car windows and wear those little flags on their clothes.

Maybe we can get John Prine to bring back "Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore..."
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
56. Not so sure. The media LIKES Obama. Also the patriotisim card is a bit worn out with voters
It seems like Obama has managed to do what Bill Clinton did. When some sort of thing like this is brought up by the media he has been able to have his response get as much exposure as the original charge.

Also after we have seen what voting for "patriotisim" has brought us with "W" the public is not so easily manipulated IMO
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devilindisguise Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
58. The only good bumper sticker on the war
The only one I've seen that I like says: "Pray For Our Soldiers". No flags, no "support the military". Just "Pray for our Soldiers". That seems to be all we can do.
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. "Guard against postures of pretended patriotism" -- George Washington
In other words "fuck those who wrap themselves in the flag and challenge the patriotism of others." Posts like this make me sick.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. And "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" : Samuel Johnson
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. A good one!
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Frisbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
40. Hmmmm...

I always thought that quote was Voltaire (based on a quote from the movie, Paths of Glory, which I highly recommend, BTW). Shows what I (don't) know. In any case, in checking it out, and proving myself mistaken, I found these quotes.


+++


“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.”
~ Thomas Jefferson

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.”
~ Thomas Jefferson

“War does not determine who is right — only who is left.”
~ Anonymous

“A sea of red coats and white trousers, in perfect step, the airs of the Republic blasted with particular gusto, the kind of sing-along oom pah pah of which patriotism is made.”
~ Anonymous

“I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.”
~ James Baldwin

“Patriotism is fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and as irrational as a headless hen.”
~ Ambrose Bierce

“Patriotism: combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.”
~ Ambrose Bierce

“God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed.”
~ Louis Buñuel

“Patriotism is the religion of hell.”
~ James Branch Cabell

“I found out why war is hell — army authority is absolute. You are defended and judged by the same kind of people who accuse and prosecute you.”
~ Michael Caine, Playboy, 1996

“The love of one’s country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?”
~ Pablo Casals

“'My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'”
~ G. K. Chesterton

“Many a bum show has been saved by the flag.”
~ George M. Cohan

“Men in authority will always think that criticism of their policies is dangerous. They will always equate their policies with patriotism, and find criticism subversive.”
~ Henry Steele Commager

“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.”
~ William O. Douglas

“Never was patriot yet, but was a fool.”
~ John Dryden

“Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism — how passionately I hate them!”
~ Albert Einstein

“I find it difficult to believe that I belong to such an idiotic, rotten species — the species that actually boasts of its freedom of will, heroism on command, senseless violence, and all of the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism.”
~ Albert Einstein

“No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.”
~ Barbara Ehrenreich

“When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart.”
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, Journals, 1824

“Freedom of speech and freedom of action are meaningless without freedom to think. And there is no freedom of thought without doubt.”
~ Bergen Evans

“That kind of patriotism which consists in hating all other nations.”
~ Elizabeth Gaskell

“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
~ Charles de Gaulle, General

“Naturally the common people don’t want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
~ Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

“Patriotism ruins history.”
~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

“Patriotism… is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.”
~ Emma Goldman

“Patriotism: noun, a nationalistic cheerleading that causes a peculiar form of blindness that magnifies the faults of your rivals and makes your own country’s faults invisible.”
~ Roedy

“Patriotism tugs at the heartstrings. It is matter of loyalty. This goes right back to our hunter-gatherer past. You must support your chief no matter what a bastard he is. The alternative is being clobbered by the neighbouring tribe. My tribe right or wrong.”
~ Roedy

“Patriotism is like the ring in the nose of a pig. It lets somebody else lead you around by the nose. If you are super patriotic, most of your critical faculties are turned off. You are a patsy.”
~ Roedy

“I am a citizen of planet Earth first, Canada second.”
~ Roedy

“Nationalism is disguised racism.”
~ Roedy

“Americans have no shame about the atrocious way their country treated the citizen of Iran, Cuba, Viet Nam, Chile, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Haiti, Venezuela, Iraq, Mexico… because they have one set of ethics about how you treat Americans and another how you treat non-Americans. How is that different from South Africa’s old apartheid system, India’s cast system or Europe’s class system?”
~ Roedy

“Patriotism is proud of a country’s virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country’s virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, 'the greatest,' but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is.”
~ Sydney J. Harris

“Treason doth never prosper. What’s the reason? Why, when it prospers, none dare call it treason.”
~ Sir John Harrington

“ A politician will do anything to keep his job even become a patriot.”
~ William Randolph Hearst(1863-1951) US newspaper publisher, Recalled on his death 14 Aug 1951

“The U.S. public is depoliticized, poorly informed on foreign affairs… and strongly patriotic in the face of a struggle with ‘another Hitler’. Even though the public is normally averse to war, even with modest propaganda efforts… the public can be quickly transformed into enthusiastic supporters of war.”
~ Edward S. Herman

“The heights of popularity and patriotism are still the beaten road to power and tyranny; flattery to treachery; standing armies to arbitrary government; and the glory of God to the temporal interest of the clergy.”
~ David Hume

“One of the great attractions of patriotism — it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat. Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous.”
~ Aldous Huxley

“At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols.”
~ Aldous Huxley

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.”
~ Thomas Jefferson

“Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.”
~ Samuel Johnson

“When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism!”
~ David Starr Jordan

“Patriotism does not oblige us to acquiesce in the destruction of liberty. Patriotism obliges us to question it, at least.”
~ Wendy Kaminer

“Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched.”
~ Guy de Maupassant

“The highest patriotism is not a blind acceptance of official policy, but a love of one’s country deep enough to call her to a higher plain.”
~ George McGovern

“In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell.”
~ H. L. Mencken

“Whenever you hear a man speak of his love for his country, it is a sign that he expects to be paid for it.”
~ H. L. Mencken

“The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.”
~ H. L. Mencken

“We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.”
~ Edward R. Murrow

“Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.”
~ George Jean Nathan

“Patriotism is usually stronger than class hatred, and always stronger than internationalism.”
~ George Orwell

“Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.”
~ George Orwell

“The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”
~ George Orwell

“Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious.”
~ George Orwell

“The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”
~ George Orwell

“If patriotism is 'the last refuge of a scoundrel,' it is not merely because evil deeds may be performed in the name of patriotism, but because patriotic fervor can obliterate moral distinctions altogether.”
~ Ralph B. Perry

“Socrates said he was not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world.”
~ Plutarch, On Banishment

“To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography.”
~ George Santayana

“A man’s feet must be planted in his country, but his eyes should survey the world.”
~ George Santayana

“Men love their country, not because it is great, but because it is their own.”
~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca

“The peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: 'Our country — when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right.'”
~ Carl Schurz

“You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.”
~ George Bernard Shaw

“Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy.”
~ George Bernard Shaw

“A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation’s nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again.”
~ George Bernard Shaw

“I can train a monkey to wave an American flag. That does not make the monkey patriotic.”
~ Scott Ritter

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
~ Theodore Roosevelt

“Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else.”
~ Theodore Roosevelt

“Patriots always talk of dying for their country and never of killing for their country.”
~ Bertrand Russell

“Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.”
~ Bertrand Russell

“Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.”
~ George Bernard Shaw

“Moral cowardice that keeps us from speaking our minds is as dangerous to this country as irresponsible talk. The right way is not always the popular and easy way. Standing for right when it is unpopular is a true test of moral character.”
~ Margaret Chase Smith

“Patriotism means unqualified and unwavering love for the nation, which implies not uncritical eagerness to serve, not support for unjust claims, but frank assessment of its vices and sins, and penitence for them.”
~ Alexander Solzhenitsyn

“Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.”
~ Adlai Stevenson

“During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.”
~ Howard Thurman

“The time is fast approaching when to call a man a patriot will be the deepest insult you can offer him. Patriotism now means advocating plunder in the interest of the privileged classes of the particular State system into which we have happened to be born.”
~ Leo Tolstoy

“Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn’t. You cannot shirk this and be a man.”
~ Thomas Tusser

“The government is merely a servant — merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.”
~ Mark Twain

“Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn’t. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let me label you as they may.”
~ Mark Twain

“Man is the only Patriot. He sets himself apart in his own country, under his own flag, and sneers at the other nations, and keeps multitudinous uniformed assassins on hand at heavy expense to grab slices of other people’s countries, and keep them from grabbing slices of his. And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood of his hands and works for ‘the universal brotherhood of man’ — with his mouth.”
~ Mark Twain

“Born in iniquity and conceived in sin, the spirit of nationalism has never ceased to bend human institutions to the service of dissension and distress.”
~ Thorstein Veblen

“It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind.”
~ Voltaire (1694-1778)

“Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.”
~ George Washington

“Beer commercials are so patriotic: ‘Made the American Way’. What does that have to do with America? Is that what America stands for? Feeling sluggish and urinating frequently?”
~ Evelyn Waugh

“Patriotism has become a mere national self assertion, a sentimentality of flag-cheering with no constructive duties.”
~ H. G. Wells

“Our true nationality is mankind.”
~ H. G. Wells

“Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.”
~ Oscar Wilde

“There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past. It is very suspicious of freedom, uncomfortable with diversity, hostile to science, unfriendly to reason, contemptuous of personal autonomy. It sees America as a religious nation. It views patriotism as allegiance to God. It secretly adores coercion and conformity. Despite our constitution, despite the legacy of the Enlightenment, it appeals to millions of Americans and threatens our freedom. The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America as a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular. It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make it strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and irrational conformity. This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society. We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it against all its enemies.”
~ Rabbi Sherwin Wine

“You’re not to be so blind with patriotism that you can’t face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”
~ Malcolm X
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. great stuff...thanks
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
73. Thank you! Great collection. I
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. oh i bet Nedra couldn't wait to pen that, this stuff is old and tired, much like Nedra.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
72. Nedra Pickler is a republican media whore...eom
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. They really take us for fools. Anyone who
thinks Barack and his wife are "unpatriotic" is nuts or believes in the media BS.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. Peh. Phooey. Ridiculous pap.
Who gives a rat's ass?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. You will. Eventually.
Dear Michele.
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. These people have a hair up their butt.
Bill Maher had David Frum & (I forget the name) R.Congressman from GA on his show and they were discussing this stuff, and how much it matters.

I wish for them all that they one day may get a life.
Luckily the real life of this nation isn't as stupid. Time for anal idiots to step aside.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. I do not own a flag pin, nor does my husband, and I've never
put my hand over my heart for the national anthem. You do that for the pledge of allegiance. Can't we get back to the REAL issues like whether or not Santa must be present in a Jesus display on public property at Christmas time?
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CatnHat Donating Member (669 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. But many do own
a flag pin. You can dismiss the Clinton's, you can dismiss real issues; but many people who scarified for our country and their families are a segment of America that no one can dismiss. As a Democrat, I am totally against this war, that said, I am saddened by the fact that about 4,000 of our men and woman died and scores wounded for Bush's war. These service men and woman are the true "patriots". If Obama can't support this by a mere gesture of laying his hand over his heart, then the question of patriotism becomes a real issue. Actions do speak louder than words.
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nbcouch Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. Support the troops
by putting your hand over your heart? By wearing a flag pin? How exactly does this support the troops???

I rather suspect that the troops would prefer some REAL support, like working to bring them home ASAP from an illegal, immoral and totally unjustified "war," for example. A hundred million flag lapel pins or yellow car magnets are worth exactly zero next to that, or next to one properly equipped Humvee.
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CatnHat Donating Member (669 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
53. That's a good
post to send to BUSH administration. But as it stands, this country is in war, and "little" gestures do matter. What message does Obama send by not showing his support of the flag. Our service men and women deserve respect; if they can show respect for our country by fighting this illegal and immoral war, don't you think even the smallest gesture does count. Our flag represents alot to our service men and woman, don't count that out.

Write your Congressmen or representative and get involved, you act like only one person can end this war; doesn't work that way. If Al Gore was president; we would never be in Iraq. Before you go on a Hillary tirade, Obama claimed he was against the war; and a couple years later, he sided with Bush, when it suited him politically; and now he's against it again; gee I wonder why.
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nbcouch Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #53
67. My post was intended
for anyone who thinks meaningless gestures like putting your hand over your heart for the national anthem constitute support for the troops, or moreover, for anyone who feels that if you don't make such gestures, you don't support the troops. For that matter, I'm still waiting for a reasonable definition of the phrase "support the troops." Do you have one?

I don't recite the pledge of allegiance, or sing the national anthem, or wear a flag pin, or drive around with an insipid slogan on a magnet on my car. I do, on the other hand, speak out frequently and spend long hours during the election cycle working for candidates who understand what it really means to support your country and your community.

When someone comes up with a pledge of allegiance to the Constitution of the United States (kind of like the oath of office required of our elected officials), you can sign me up to recite that sucker every morning.
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devilindisguise Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #36
60. Don't care about flag pins, it's a non issue
But, one places one's hand over one's heart for the POA and the National Anthem. That is a known fact. I will give Obama the credit that he probably doesns't know because he spent so much time in the Muslim Schools, and in Hawaii and other spots that aren't stateside.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. LOL
You're an idiot.
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devilindisguise Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
59. What:?
I've never been to a horse race, or any large event playing the National Anthem where people didn't place their hand on their heart. The men all place their hands over their heart, if they know what's good. You need to speak to veterans of wars. Also do some research.
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nbcouch Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. "If they know what's good"?
Meaning what, exactly? That if they don't, the brown shirts will get them in the middle of the night?

In the current political environment, you are not so far from the truth, unfortunately. Do you support the thought police mentality that this represents? If so, the GOP have a nice warm spot waiting for you.

I've known a lot of vets in my lifetime - friends, relatives - and based on what I know about them, I reckon they'd tell you that their service was about preserving the freedoms enumerated in our Constitution, NOT about slavishly following convention when it comes to the public display of "devotion" to symbols.

By the way, Barack Obama is a Christian. He's never practiced Islam or attended a Muslim school. He currently attends the United Church of Christ.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. With OP's like you, who needs REPUBLICANS?


Google flag lapel pins and you'll find ALL KINDS of
RW bullshit about Obama not wearing a flag pin on his
lapel.

Maybe you and your friends would be more comfortable
hanging out with more "patriotic" Americans....




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BobbyVan Donating Member (502 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Uh, this is an AP article!!!
We shouldn't cocoon ourselves away from what the MSM is saying, right or wrong.

Oh, and Obama should just wear the damn flag pin and put this issue to rest. Geez.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Zieg Heil, Mr. Van!
Any other patriotic identifiers we should
be required to flash?


"Oh, and Obama should just wear the damn flag pin and put this issue to rest. Geez."


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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
63. How about a yellow ribbon and a flag decal on his car? n/t
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nbcouch Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Too late
The smear's already in place. He could paint the flag on his forehead every morning from now until November and they'd still say "but on such-and-such date he didn't have a flag and he didn't put his hand over his heart, blah blah blah..."

I hope he DOESN"T give in to this kind of baiting horseshit, that he continues doing exactly as he pleases when it comes to so-called patriotic symbolism (and other matters of zero importance), and further, that he refuses to dignify this particular smear with any response whatsoever.

Obama needs to continue doing what he's doing, for the time being at least. It's working really, REALLY well.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. this is not news at all... ap should be ashamed of themselves. screw 'Murikan flag lapel pins
that has nothing whatsoever to do with concern for one's country.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. MAY?
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

When are Congressional Dems going to demand a special prosecutor into McCain's affair with a lobbyist?
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
28. TIme to start calling McCain "the Bush wing of the republikkkon party"
every day, every time a microphone goes on
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
29. This is the lamest thing I have heard lately.
I am finding myself bored to death with all these lame attacks on the candidates. Surely we, as a people, are not so stupid that these little stories and accusations could have much impact , except by the most ignorant RW's .At this point we have heard and seen it all.These stories are for O'Liely's followers.
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Desperadoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore
© John Prine

While digesting Reader's Digest
In the back of a dirty book store,
A plastic flag, with gum on the back,
Fell out on the floor.
Well, I picked it up and I ran outside
Slapped it on my window shield,
And if I could see old Betsy Ross
I'd tell her how good I feel.

Chorus:
But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

Well, I went to the bank this morning
And the cashier he said to me,
"If you join the Christmas club
We'll give you ten of them flags for free."
Well, I didn't mess around a bit
I took him up on what he said.
And I stuck them stickers all over my car
And one on my wife's forehead.

Repeat Chorus:

Well, I got my window shield so filled
With flags I couldn't see.
So, I ran the car upside a curb
And right into a tree.
By the time they got a doctor down
I was already dead.
And I'll never understand why the man
Standing in the Pearly Gates said...

"But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
We're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more."
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
31. Oh NoeZ!!!!11!
Anything but that!!!


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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. I'd rather a candidate that didn't just pay lip-service to his Patriotism, anyway.

A lapel pin does not a patriot make. Somebody should tell the GOP fuckwits in Congress that.
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devilindisguise Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #32
61. I believe the definiton of Patriotism is Love for one's country
That doesn't mean a flag pin. It does mean placing one's hand on one's heart during the playing of the National Anthem, and during the Pledge of Allegiance to one's country. I learned that in first grade.
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
33. Gotta love
Roger Stone's effort to distance the Republican party from the anti-patriotic messages. As if.

Personally, I'd never worn a flag pin until W was "selected" to office. Since that day on which the Supreme Court violated the Constitution, I've worn a flag pin. Upside down. It's amazing how many people can spot it from across a room and make it their business to tell me about it. One woman reached out to turn it while whispering, "I know you don't want to send the wrong message, honey." I put it back the way it was and told her, not whispering, that I was sending exactly the right message, "Dearie." Yep, she called me names. Made my whole day!
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
35. Oh good freaking grief!
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 03:29 PM by JerseygirlCT
So as long as you wave a flag around and wear the right pins you can sytematically dismantle everything this country was founded on, (making your buddies zillions in the process) and that's a-ok patriotic.

Decline to wear the proper coded symbolism and you're suddenly of the McGovern wing of the Democratic party? (He's not, although I'd have no problem with that, personally!).

This sort of stuff is insane, and I hope unlike Kerry, he fights every single bit of it with strong language and his usual cogent arguments.

Such bs!

edited to add: this is like the folks who think they're being patriotic by slapping a flag sticker on the back of their Expeditions...
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. Or one of those fucking yellow magnetic ribbons....
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Yes! Exactly what I was thinking about
That's it then, you can congratulate yourself for fighting those terrorists, so long as you slap one or more of those things on your big car.
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
37. That makes me so
shit I could mad all over. Patriotism is something you feel and not wear. Wearing a pin or having a magnet on your car does not make a patriot. Many of those wearing flag pins have done our country great harm. As far as the hand over the heart bs, I didn't know until I read snopes you were supposed to have your hand over your heart during the Star Spangled Banner and I am almost 55 years old. In my whole life I have never placed my hand over my heart during the national anthem. I know the right wingers will use this to attack him. It's our responsibility as democrats to throw it back in their faces.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
38. Another reason Wes Clark would be a great choice for VP . . . . . . . .
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 04:04 PM by charles t
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. The first sensible response
I'm extremely interested in the nature of the right wing attacks that are going to be used, and this one is at the top of their hit parade. Some congressional puke from Georgia was on Bill Maher last night and that is all he could talk about. Maher didn't have a a good response ready to shut the bastard up. If we don't have that, they win the point.
I think a strong unassailable VP is a good start but we need something specific to Obama... 20 words or less.
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nbcouch Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
52. Nobody is unassailable - unless they are GOP n/t
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
42. * wears a flag pin every day....
and he is the biggest America hater that I know of. The pin does not define American.
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MarkInLA Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
47. I admire Obama's independence
The belief that he needs to wear an American flag lapel to be considered a good American is akin to the Nazis forcing Jews to wear yellow stars.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
49. Rove, et al, will play this up BIG TIME!
They will make the Kerry Swiftboating look like a sunday school class.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
50. The way to handle this is w/ ridicule
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 09:18 PM by Beetwasher
Obama needs to ridicule any and all idiots who question his patriotism.

For example: why do I need to wear a flag lapel pin? Hah! That's nothing! I have American flags tatooed on my retinas! I challenge Magoo to top that!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
51. Yeah...love how the GOP are the grillers and we're all presumed guilty . . . !!!
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
55. The kind of patriotism advocated by the right gets people killed.
No thanks.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
62. George Bush wears a flag pin and puts his hand over his heart...
...(sometimes even the CORRECT hand), and he by no means fits my definition of a patriot.

That this is even being seriously discussed anywhere is an insult to us all.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
65. HIT PIECE ALERT!
...conservatives on Internet and in the media to question his patriotism.
CONSERVATIVES don't like Obama! I had no idea!

Opponents of Sen. John Kerry proved in the 2004 election that voters are sensitive to suggestions that a candidate is not sufficiently patriotic.
The swiftboating of Kerry was successful because he didn't take it seriously enough to fight back. Obama won't make that mistake. What voters are "sensitive" to is candidates who won't stand up for themselves.

Obama already is the subject of a shadowy smear campaign based on the Internet that falsely suggests he's a Muslim...(He) has been fighting the e-mail hoax, which also claims he doesn't put his hand over his heart during the Pledge of Allegiance, and he's been trying to correct the misinformation.
Well, if media like yours did a BETTER job of STATING that it IS misinformation, it wouldn't be an issue anymore!


This is just another excuse to repeat the rumors and give them a veneer of legitimacy, not to mention tie Obama to Kerry.


rocknation
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October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
66. I don't have a problem with this
I think the Pledge of Allegiance is a bizarre custom. I tend to respect it, but how much of that is because I've been "trained." It didn't hit me as odd till I watched my children do it, and I was aghast because they didn't even know what they were saying/pledging. I know I tend to be in the minority on this issue. I don't want "God" in the pledge either, but that's another thread, I suppose.

I also think Obama will come up with a new way to show his patriotism and his supporters will unite behind him. The flag on the lapel represents the GOP to me. It's unfortunate, but they've stolen the flag, pin, and just about every other "symbol" of patriotism (and a whole lot more). GWB wears his pin all the time, (when he's not wearing his #43 presidential seal get-up) and all his supporters follow suit.

I didn't care for Michelle's comments, and I tend to dislike what she says and how she says it. She's a bit of a loose canon. I also worry sometimes about her and Obama because they seem overconfident and smug -- and I don't know why they feel they have to act so superior. I cringe a bit when they come off as know-it-alls. Maybe that's just because I'm conditioned to cringe where Dem candidates are concerned. We never know if a scream (Dean) will put and end to the campaign, or purple band-aids (anti-Kerry) will result in more mockery. I seriously hope I'm wrong, because the idea of McCain as president makes me ill.

One of the GOP types on Bill Maher's show questioned Michelle's comments by noting her Ivy League education and privileges. It's easy to mock her on that one. I also noticed the right-wingers were starting to attack Obama on Bill's show. (Here it comes.) <exhale> Suddenly, instead of Obama being an eloquent, inspirational speaker -- he's "windy." Now that Hillary's campaign is floundering, I expect they GOPers to come out with the negative memes on Obama. I hope he can not only withstand what they will throw, but that he will know how to fight back.

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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
69. I'm really looking forward to seeing Obama respond to that in GE debates
Like he's always done, with all of the other petty and ridiculous accusations of both Hillary and McCain campaigns, Obama will
no doubt use this as a golden opportunity to educate the American public on the real meaning of patriotism ... no doubt drawing
on quotes from our founding fathers .. and knock another one out of the park, revealing the RWers to be the phony patriots they
really are. This will stand in sharp contrast to the lame and ineffectual responses by Kerry in '04 to such charges.

I can hardly wait. :bounce:

Go Obama!! :yourock:
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
70. how does the inquisition grill these days? Spit or swallow? n/t
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
71. Your Flag Pin Was Made In China
New meme. Pass it on.




:patriot: :think: CHINA

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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
74. What is 'patriotism' these days?
To have a common frame of reference may prove useful.
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