Woman Dies On New York-Bound Flight

[Demagitator]

Source: KXAS | Dallas

NEW YORK -- Struggling to breathe, American Airlines passenger Carine Desir asked for oxygen, but a flight attendant twice refused her request, according to the woman's cousin.

"Don't let me die," the cousin, Antonio Oliver, recalled Desir saying after the attendant's refusal to administer the oxygen.

But Desir did die, Oliver said Sunday in a telephone interview, even after he said the flight attendant relented and various medical devices on the plane failed, including two oxygen tanks that were found to be empty and what may have been a defibrillator seemed to malfunction.

Read more: http://www.nbc5i.com/news/15399123/detail.html

[sam sarrha]

1. they denied the oxygen because they knew it didnt work.. saved some money, killing that woman

[JeanGrey]

5. I smell a big lawsuit......................

[NJmaverick]

2. It's not surprising that the O2 was empty

After all it was probably not one of the routinely checked items. It had probably been used, and no one remembered to replace/refill it. Still, odds are that the O2 was not the difference between life and death. It sound like this woman had a major MI (heart attack). The oxygen might have helped her a bit, but I doubt it would have saved her life. I feel bad for the woman and her family. 44 is too young to die.

[AnneD]

3. The fact that....

there was no O2 in the cannister is unforgivable and inexcusable. Criminal negligence on their part. Her family will be owning a piece of that airline...end of story. I feel sorry for the medical people on board that tried to help. Imagine the uproar if that has happened in a hospital.

[lynnertic]

40. I'm with you on this one.

The last time I flew a plane it hadn't even been vacuumed. The leg before that was delayed for a few minutes because a few of the bev carts were missing (3)... I overheard stewards complaining about it.

It was a different airline, and a trivial complaint compared to this. I'm really sorry this woman died and that must have been horrible for her companion (nephew?) and the others on the plane.

If airlines have the power to detain/arrest us for something as silly as speaking out, they need to take seriously their responsibility to get us to our destination safe and sound (of mind and spirit as well as body). Too many corners are being cut, and it's not the fault of Internet ticket sales driving down price (I read that somewhere).

[itsrobert]

50. The crew probably used the oxygen

Probably on a earlier flight. I seen some pilots take it to refresh themselves and keep them awake.

[AnneD]

51. I won't speculate.....

But everything has a checklist and it has to be checked off. I don't know the type of cannister they had, but many have a gouge and one can visualize the amount of O2 very easily.

My Dad was an AF mechanic....they have check off lists (went with him on occasion as a child and watched shakedowns).
I'm a Nurse and I can work an O2 cannister.

[Kelvin Mace]

8. I think three factors are at play

1) The refusal of the flight crew to render aid IMMEDIATELY.

2) The prompt administration of oxygen might have alleviated her condition enough to avoid a full blown MI. Oxygen starvation damn sure doesn't help the situation.

3) The portable defib unit also failed to function, despite being in the hands of trained medical personnel.

In each of these factors the airline is at fault.

[NJmaverick]

11. No sure if I agree with your factors

1) If they didn't have oxygen there was no aid to render

2) Here condition was an MI, the O2 might have provided some relief, but it would not have solved her problem

3) I am waiting to here better details on this charge. More than likely none of the medical personal were trained on that unit. Plus many times the unit will indicate no shockable rhythm, so it would seem to bystanders that it was not working. Most of the bystanders don't understand what a defib unit does and think that like on TV everyone has a shockable rhythm.

[unc70]

15. They could have tapped the main oxygen system on the plane

Years ago I was on a flight where they had to use the emergency supply. Unfortunately, when accessing that system, they accidentally triggered all the little masks to drop down and the emergency recording to play. This was mid-Atlantic, middle of the night, and scared the .... of most of the passengers. I was awake and had seen what they were doing when it happened.

[flyarm]

17. Nomad..you are closer to the truth here than anyone!

this is not a complete story..so people here are judging without all the facts.

You are correct about the defib..it will tell the people running it if a shock is required...many many times a shock is not required ..only certain conditions does it do anything productive..the machine tells the administers if a shock needed or what is necessary for the person it is administered on..IT DOES THE DIAGNOSIS of what procedure is nessessary...WHILE HOOKED UP ON THE PERSON.

this story is incomplete..there are more than 2 O2 bottles on a A300..and there are more than one type of O2 bottles..

and there are procedures the flight crew must follow to use the O2 bottles.understand they are dangerous ..they are under pressure.. in a tube... in the air.

all flt crew is required to do a pre flight check of the O2 bottles and the defibrillator when pre- boarding the aircraft.

there are gages that show the levels of O2 that must be met before the aircraft can be boarded by passengers.

can things malfunction? does your computer???????? absolutely .....especially when under pressurization conditions...but everything is done repeatedly to attempt to assure it doesn't..is that a guarantee ..no.

understand ..other than passenger use...for emergency only...those bottles are used by the flight crew should the aircraft under go a decompression..so the flight crew can be mobile to help the entire aircraft of passengers should a decompression occur.

This case, as all cases will be investigated fully.

for people here to sit with very few details and to think you know what happened is ridiculous.

fly..a retired flight crew

[NJmaverick]

23. My sense is that people are jumping to conclusions

based on limited and one sided informtion. Sensational story, but is it accurate?

[flygal]

29. former flight attendant here in agreement

I was shocked that story is on CNN first page. It only has one passengers account. I dropped my jaw reading that the O2 was empty - I just can't believe that one!!! o2 checks were done EVERY flight - 3-6 times a day for our short hauls. AND - the times we needed o2 it was NEVER put back - it was written up and replaced.

I can not imagine an F/A refusing o2. Even crabby F/A's would never refuse a medical request. It just doesn't sound like we have the whole story.

[flyarm]

32. last night when this was also posted here at du..i went to the FAA incident report web site

and nothing is there about this story..as of yet.

and people here are taking an incomplete story that is one sided..and making judgements..of which they have no clue what most are talking about!

Many passengers board an aircraft and have anxiety..and beg for Oxygen..the flight crew has procedures to assess all passengers as required by the FAA..before administering Oxygen.

Understand it is dangerous stuff under pressure in a pressurized cabin..( tube)..there is no time out room to take the person to..

Ensuring the safety of the "entire cabin of passengers" is the #1 duty of that crew..

they are not required to be dr's or nurses...they assess by guidelines and common sense.

under perfect conditions on the ground..equip malfunctions..


i had a guy have a heart attack mid air..and defib'ed him and then put him on O2..the bottles are "supposed to run " a certain amount of time..i had one O2.. instead of running 22 minutes that the FAA certified it to run.. it ran only 6 minutes..( it was reported..by me angrily) ..but i was to find out from the FAA report..when the passenger is breathing very hard after coming out of a heart attack..it takes the oxygen faster out of the bottle..

al-ot faster..

the time that is reported is based on calm.. slow..normal breathing..

i would not say mistakes could not have happened..or malfunctions could not have occured..but to sit here and make judgments without the whole story is ridiuclous..at best.

but you... nor i can sit here and know if that flight crew followed all procedures, as required by the FAA..and as per the airline procedures ..and their training...under the circumstances that existed.

fly

and ps...the last guy i had have a heart attack mid air was saved..and he has sent me xmas cards each of the five years since..as it happened on Xmas eve....

and for those who say they should land right away..well for this man we tried .. but could not get in as an emergency landing..because of horrible snow storms..into MCO, or Ord..we diverted each time..to another airport..and finally landed in Columbus Ohio...

oh and while i kept the man alive..another passenger stole my purse..that i got out to get an elastic band from ( a hair one) to tie down the O2 bottle to the seat for landing....yeah on xmas eve...

fly

[Kelvin Mace]

48. Hmmm... so multiple oxygen

gauges failed?

I have $20 that says nobody did any ACTUAL checks, the just signed off on the paperwork. Also, an outside contractor will have been given the job of checking the oxygen tanks aboard, while the crew just signed a paper that says they were checked.

You know, I have seen enough of these clusterfucks play out that I know the ploy by now. Yes, I could be wrong, but past experience makes it unlikely.

I'll be very interested to read the depositions. My guess is the airline will quickly and quietly settled out of court with a non-disclosure requirement in order to prevent the truth coming out.

[Kelvin Mace]

37. I have seen and trained on the portable units

they are now deploying.

My cat could use it, so I think a medical doctor/nurse would work just fine.

They initially REFUSED twice to give her oxygen, then discovered that two separate tanks were empty. In these situations, time is everything. It was only after the passengers got upset that the flight crew took the situation seriously. If the situation had been dealt with quickly, and seriously, then a decision to land might have been made earlier.

I am puzzled as to why they went to JFK instead of Miami after the woman died. I'm betting instructions from HQ that needed time to try and "spin" the disaster.

[flyarm]

41. no ,once pax is dead ..they do not divert..

and there is no emergency landing in the ocean..they were, as someone here stated, 45 minutes out over the ocean..

and yes anyone can do the defibs in use on an aircraft..they tell you what to do..but not all cases require the defib shock..and the machine will tell you if it does.

If you have used the machine, you should know that.

and there are more than 2 O2 bottles on the aircraft..if two malfunctioned and there were medically trained people working on the passenger..and they knew no O2 was getting to the pax..they could have and should have asked for other bottles.

and possibly did..we do not have the full story here and to pretend we do and surmise stuff without full knowledge of what happened ..is just bullshit.

it will be fully investigated by the FAA..and attorney's on all sides, i am sure.

fly

[Kelvin Mace]

47. I have trained on them,

not actually used them.

According to the story, it didn't work. Also, there were doctors and nurses on board. Unless they were veterinarians or dentists, I would think they would know how to use the equipment.

I also pointed out that there were more source of O2 on board.

Now, as to this being FULLY investigated by the FAA. Do you mean BushCo's FAA?

The attorneys, yes, the FAA doubtful.

[flyarm]

49. i have used the defib in the air in emergencies..i have used it approx 8 times..

in all but 2 cases it told me not to shock.
at that point it was pushed aside..in the isle..and out of the way for cpr to take place..anyone looking at it could think it wasn't being used or didn't work..if they did not have training on it.

bascially the only reason it would malfunction is the battery would be dead..and it has a long life battery ..very long life.

at least the ones equiped on aircraft have a very long life battery.

it is battery operated..there would be no reason for it to malfunction.

but all machines can and will on occassion malfunction..all flight crew are required to check to see the lock is on place on the defib machine when boarding the flight for pre-flight checks..the airline and the FAA certify the defib and O2 bottles, before locking them in place.

fly

[smoogatz]

12. You're not a doctor—

but you play one on a message board!

[NJmaverick]

16. I have been an emergency medical technician for over 22 years

Seen and treated more heart attacks in the field than I can count. Unlike yourself, I do not speak on things I know nothing about.

[smoogatz]

24. My apologies.

It sounded like you were doing a Frist, but without the benefit of video.

[Kelvin Mace]

38. Well, I certainly cede to your

expertise, but the refusal to give oxygen, led to delays in addressing the problem. It also seems to me that they could have tapped into one of the various emergency O2 systems on the plane (cockpit, cabin, flight attendant's station.

I cannot understand upon what grounds the flight attendant said, "No, oxygen for you!"

David Allen

[Tyler Durden]

19. Funny. First thing we ALWAYS did in cases of possible MI....

Start patient on 100% O2. Always.

And yes, the O2 system on the plane would have helped. That has been tried on MAC flights in the past with success.

[NJmaverick]

20. That's correct

O2 will help in most case and will not hurt. So you are taught to always put them on O2. However if the MI is the result of a blockage, the O2's affects are negligible.

[Tyler Durden]

21. Except in cases where the blockage is far enough down

To allow perfusion of areas areas around the infarct. Unless this was over the ocean, SOP: Oxygen and LAND, IMMEDIATELY.

[NJmaverick]

22. They were over the ocean with 45 minutes to the nearest

airport (being Miami).

[Tyler Durden]

26. O2, defib, even CPR have bought that much time...

One code I was on ran 60 minutes. Patient walked out of the hospital.

[NJmaverick]

28. You had a patient with no pulse for 60 minutes

and then restored their pulse after that length of time?

[Tyler Durden]

30. Yep.

We did have the full crash cart, and 3 ex-USMC Field medics.

Broke 3 ribs, but he walked out.

[NJmaverick]

36. That's exceedly rare

The odds of that happening, are probably on par with winning the lottery. Good for you guys and the patient.

[flyarm]

34. each case is totally different ..you know that. eom

[Kelvin Mace]

42. Except for that big island called CUBA

with all those doctors.

Then again, Guantanamo has a large enough air field to accommodate a commercial jet and if the doctors can be interrupted from their torture supervision work, I'm sure they could render aid.

[Kelvin Mace]

39. Yeah

the LAND IMMEDIATELY option seems to have vanished with the oxygen.

They were flying from Haiti. At 500-600mph, land, oxygen, and paramedic teams are within minutes reach.

[BlueCollar]

58. There were 12 (one dozen) O2 bottles on board

"It's not surprising"....Care to validate that statement?

"After all it was probably not one of the routinely checked items"...Care to validate that statement?

"It had probably been used, and no one remembered to replace/refill it."...Routinely inspected on preflights...

One bottle might leak down below limits but all twelve on board seems unlikely...

I've been a mechanic for almost thirty years (military and civil)and have never seen or heard of such a thing. I think you need to sit back and assess your assessment.

[qanda]

4. That is terribly tragic

I feel so bad for this woman's family. This has to be a very difficult situation made more difficult by "what ifs".

[Kelvin Mace]

6. Let's turn to the discovery evidence

that will come out in the lawsuit.

American Airlines "outsourced" maintenance of its oxygen cylinders and medical equipment on their aircraft. You know, to save money. The contractor failed to do its job. You know, to save money.

Passenger dies.

Remember cases like this every time you hear a conservative talk about tort reform. They want to eliminate people's ability to punish folks like American Airlines in a manner that would make killing its customers unprofitable, by lowering or eliminating the amount of punitive and actual damages a person can recover for criminally negligent actions like this.

As there were sufficient trained medical personnel on the plane the fault lies squarely on the airline. If the flight crew hadn't delayed treatment and if the equipment had worked, this woman would likely be alive and this would be a heroic story and an affirmation for the importance of emergency defibrillators being available in public spaces.

Instead, it is a sordid tale of corporate greed killing yet again.

[peacetalksforall]

18. This needs to be repeated - conservative movement to protect corporations -

"Remember cases like this every time you hear a conservative talk about tort reform. They want to eliminate people's ability to punish folks like American Airlines in a manner that would make killing its customers unprofitable, by lowering or eliminating the amount of punitive and actual damages a person can recover for criminally negligent actions like this."

[CanonRay]

7. The flight attendant couldn't figure out how much to charge for the oxygen.

[Kelvin Mace]

9. $10, twice

what the bourbon cost.

[bdamomma]

10. oh boy I hope that airline attendent will be held accountable.

no humanity and no compassion for people no more. shameful utterly shameful.

[ReformedChris]

13. The lawyers will have it easy on this one, almost as easy as it would have been to help this woman!

Ridiculous waste of life. Just give the woman what she wants and needs. Even if they didn't have any oxygen, the flight attendant should have done everything in her power to help this lady to cover her own ass and try to save her life. I sure hope the lawyers have fun suing the airline, it couldn't be made easier.

[smoogatz]

14. Time to re-regulate the airlines.

Deregulation has been a spectacular flop. And I won't say what I'm thinking about that flight attendant: what she did is criminal, IMO.

[speedbird]

25. did the vic use oxygen routinely? .n/t

[yellowcanine]

27. Don't flight attendants receive EMT training? Thought they had to be CPR certified.

[flyarm]

35. no emt training..no medical training..cpr and defib training only.eom

[Kelvin Mace]

43. According to the story

doctors AND nurses were aboard as passengers. However, no oxygen and no functional defib unit.

[flyarm]

44. and you are getting that side of the story from who? someone trained in the defib machine that was

there?

you know, if you know that defib machine..it tells you if a shock is required..it will not just auto shock..some conditions do not require shoc,k in fact shock could be dangerous in some cases..the machine tells one if it is required..if it says no shock ..the machine is then rendered done..it can keep a pulse..and someone not trained on it ..say someone observing ..with no training on it..may think it is not useful ..since a shock is not required.

i can not and will not judge what happened on that aircraf,t until i read a full accounting and an official report ..to do otherwise is like glorified rumour.

you of anyone David should know how responsible our media is reporting info today..sensationalism..that is what sells..and that is what they sell us..on a daily basis..

and just to make that point ..AA flt 587 crashed Nov 2001..into Rockaway Beach Ny..an A300..for three days the new head of the NTSB said the pilots must have known they were going to crash because they dumped fuel..

Pataki repeated it..

that aircraft had no capapbility to dump fuel.

fly

[Kelvin Mace]

46. Then we'll see what finally comes out of it

I can only evaluate the story based on the information provided. If we are to required to withhold comments on every story until months later when every single fact can be vetted, then this is going to be a quiet, very quiet, board.

[0007]

31. If the woman in question had COPD, it would seem to me that

what was needed at the time was her Inhalation Aerosol, such as Albuterol (sp) or combivents. (The medication was probably in her purse or person)

I have COPD and it certainly isn't fun when you need a breath of air. It can be brought on by stress or exertion.

[Pappy]

33. American Airlines should be out of business but Bush bailed them out after 9/11

The market would have taken care of crappy American Airlines after the 9/11 debacle but stupid Bush bailed them out along with a bunch of other crappy airlines. I can't stand to fly at all, they pack you in there like sardines, its hard to breath, they probe your ass before you get on board, every damn thing sucks about flying and I was so happy when they all started to go under and idiot Bush takes my tax money and gives it to his corporate masters and bails them out. Those poor people flying American should be thankful they landed at all with that airlines tarnished record.

[NJmaverick]

45. I urge people to wait until the facts are known and not

jump to conclusions, based on sketching information from a grieving relative.

[ecstatic]

52. "The woman's body was moved to the floor of the first-class section

and covered with a blanket..."

Desir was pronounced dead by one of the doctors, Joel Shulkin, and the flight continued to John F. Kennedy International Airport, without stopping in Miami. The woman's body was moved to the floor of the first-class section and covered with a blanket, Oliver said.

---

I don't know what to think about that. While it may have been a pragmatic decision to continue on, it still seems incredibly disrespectful. Perhaps they could have landed in Miami and had the woman escorted to a real hospital to see if anything more could be done. Then they could have given the entire family a first class ticket to New York and paid for the body to be transported the correct way, particularly in light of their early on refusals to administer oxygen.

[Kelvin Mace]

53. Now, dead bodies in first class

at no additional charge.

[tkmorris]

54. They'll charge her estate for the upgrade.....

[smoogatz]

56. And for the blanket.

And report her and er family to DHS for causing a ruckus.

[smoogatz]

55. It seemed better than propping her up in the bathroom

which was probably their first thought. Holy crap. No wonder I hate flying.

[happyslug]

57. Warsaw Treaty Case. This is the international Treaty on Airlines/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Convention

Limits liability to $25,066. If this had been a domestic flight Strict liability would have kicked in and no limit as to the amount of liability, but this was an international flight and the "Warsaw Convention" sets liability limits.