Colombia: Evidence suggests Chavez gave FARC $300M

[Meshuga]

Source: CNN

(CNN) -- Evidence found in computers seized in a raid over the weekend suggests that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez recently gave the leftist Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia $300 million, Colombia's national police chief said Monday.


Ecuadoran soldiers board a helicopter Monday to Angostura, near the Colombian border.

1 of 3 Speaking at a news conference, Gen. Oscar Naranjo also said evidence in the computers suggests FARC had given Chavez 100 million pesos when he was a jailed rebel leader.

FARC has fought to overthrow the Colombian government for 40 years.

Chavez had no immediate response to the allegations involving him.

Naranjo said other evidence in the computers suggests FARC purchased 50 kilograms of uranium this month.

Meanwhile, Colombia said Monday it won't send troops to its southwest and northeast borders, where Venezuelan and Ecuadoran military forces were to be separately deployed after a Colombian raid into Ecuador


Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/03/03/ecuador.colombia/index.html

[fascisthunter]

1. surrrrre

[subsuelo]

14. Let's take a vote to Authorize War on Venezuela.

Hillary, what's your vote?

[fascisthunter]

17. lol....ouch

[RantinRavin]

2. Countdown....

To the U.S. is providing false intelligence excuse.

[OKthatsIT]

113. US INTEL is PRIVATIZED...and full of lies, 'PICK & CHOOSE' intelligence

[EFerrari]

3. Way to post a hit piece!

And, yes, the Chavez government has responded.

"Venezuelan Vice President Ramon Carrizalez dismissed the charges, saying: "We are accustomed to the lies of the Colombian government."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080303/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_colombia_19

[fascisthunter]

6. warmongering is such an art form

as Bush said, "gotta catapult the propaganda!"

[EFerrari]

8. The thing is, if you follow the coverage for a while, you can see it coming.

Complaining about RCTV while neglecting their crucial role in the coup, conflating pro- Chavez marchers with "student protestors" before the referendum, saying the Chavez government has nothing to say.

It's a pattern of misrepresentation and obfuscation. We either become good readers or we catapult the propaganda ourselves. :shrug:

In this instance, Colombia is the entity that is guilty of supporting terrorist activity against Venezuela and the entity responsible for murdering people instead of resorting to the law. So, how surprising is it that Colombia is accusing Venezuela and Ecuador of the same?

Not at all. Our tax dollars at work.

[fascisthunter]

10. I Know.... I Know

I just don't give posters the benefit of the doubt as you do. They know full well what they are doing.

[rpannier]

9. And you'd expect the Venezuelan government to say anything else???

"Yes, we've been providing money to FARC."

You have no way of knowing if they are or if they aren't providing aid, neither do I.
At this point it's a he said, he said situation.

As to this story being a hit-piece... That's kind of a reactionary response...

You don't like the story, so therefore it lacks merit and is a hit-piece.

Do you do this with all stories that you don't like???

[EFerrari]

11. Tell you what. Despite that this story follows a familiar pattern,

I will retract my statement if you can find an objective report.

You won't.

Reactionary, my granny.

This is the same old, same old.

[nick303]

119. The answer to your question is yes.

Source: Every DU thread on this subject.

[Mudoria]

4. Wouldn't really be very surprising

at all if it turns out to be true.

[EFerrari]

5. It's not the particulars of the hit piece. As always, it's the spin.

The implication is that Chavez supports terrorists.

And, that is laughable.

[niceypoo]

18. Chavez is a moron for starters

I see him as one of the three stooges of world politics, Bush and Ahmadinejad being the other two.

[Pavulon]

19. No he is pretty smart..Check out LC on NYMEX.

Oil is up baby, that is what he sells. The dopeman is jacking up the price of his product. He may shed a tear for a fellow communista but money is money.

[EFerrari]

20. Certainly. That's why he has been so successful.

[leftynyc]

101. BFD - the chimp was elected

twice. Also considered successful.

[EFerrari]

104. No, the chimp was never elected once. And he has been a disaster. n/t

[leftynyc]

105. I'll give you the 2000 election

but I don't feel even if Ohio was a disaster in 04, the chimp won by more than 3 million votes. I know it's hard to believe and it took me a long time to recover, but he did win that election.

[EFerrari]

106. There's a crowd of people and a mountain of evidence that

hold the opposite view. If you get a chance, catch "Stealing Democracy" on LinkTv this week. It's on again on Friday, iirc.

Just in New Mexico alone, 21K people weren't allowed to vote for Kerry. Their ballots were "under votes" -- 21K people went to the polls, voted for Democrats but not for Kerry. Right!

Bush "won" the election there by something like 1/4 of that number. What happened in OH happened in lots of places.

[leftynyc]

107. And didn't NM have problems with

their primary this year? After 8 years of this shit, you'd think election reform would be on the top 10 of someone's list of problems for this country. You may be right about 2004 but we'll never know - 2000 was clearly a stolen election.

[EFerrari]

108. Yes, New Mexico had an embarrassingly effed up primary.

There are a lot of interesting voting practices in NM including some pretty public vote buying and selling.

Try to catch that documentary if you can. Most of the folks at the heart of the election reform movement are in it. It's a great primer for all the most common ways the Republicans are using to steal our votes.

www.linktv.org is their site and they have a schedule up.

[leftynyc]

109. I appreciate the into

and will defintitely look for it. Election reform is one of my pet issues and it makes me insane that nobody is talking about it.

[INDIA]

27. Chavez says they aren't terrorists. So I guess in his little mind, supporting them would be ok.

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/world/20080111-colombia-venezuela-hostages-chavez-political-FARC-terrorists.php

And what we DO know is that Chavez is close enough to FARC to broker the release of their hostages. So I don't know why you think the possibility of him monetarily supporting the group is "laughable." It would be reasonable to believe, judging by past and recent events, that it's quite possible. Don't you think?

[Joe Chi Minh]

32. They're freedom fighters! What business is it of the US anyway! Hell, when you think of what

they're financing - and seem to have been from time immemorial! You fascist-lovers are totally mindless?

Oh my! I've just realised. If it's true, why it would mean Hugo would be trying to destabilise another country's government! Lawksamercy, did you ever hear of such a thang! Why, I do declare, Beulah. Pass me another grape.

[INDIA]

34. Lol!

We here at DU HATE WARMONGERING SABRE RATTLERS! Oh wait, Saint Hugo is doing it? Uhhhhhh.....THIS IS ALL URIBE'S FAULT!!1!11 Chavez is only sabre rattling to protect the people of Venezuala via Ecuador...errr....at leas a mile long sliver of Ecuador.

[Joe Chi Minh]

110. You're quite right of course. The State Department, CIA and Pentagon

must be horrified if it turns out to be true that ANY country could pull such a dirty trick as to destabilise another country's government. If it' true, that's just plain UN-AMERICAN, Ugo!

[Homer12]

7. Do you think Venezula/Ecudor and Colombia will get into a war?

Just want to know what you guys think?

[nosmokes]

12. The Colombian Gov't is Dimson's puppet FCOL.

You can no more take this seriously than you can WH or Pentagon *news* out of Iraq or Afghanistan.

[goforit]

16. So true!!....What would Bushco do without all those profits from the drug trade.

[Tempest]

13. And Bush looks ignorant

"This is an odd reaction by Venezuela to Colombia's efforts against the FARC, a terrorist organization that continues to hold Colombians, Americans and others hostage," spokesman Gordon Johndroe said.


What is odd about being pissed over the violation of a neighboring country's sovereignty?

[EFerrari]

15. On its head.

The "odd" reaction is Colombia's reaction to the release of hostages by FARC.

A sane government would keep negotiating until they are all free, not go on a shooting spree designed to shut down the exchange. :shrug:

[Peace Patriot]

21. And those fiendish Chavez soldiers on the border are unplugging babies' incubators!

Here is all you need to know about this situation (and Colombia's lies)...

"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants** Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113001800.html

Translating Rumsfeld just a bit, he urges...

1. Billions more in military aid to Colombia's fascists (through Bushite fingers)--greatest war profiteer boondoggle outside of Iraq and Israel.

2. "Free trade" (kill all the union leaders you want to) for Occidental Petroleum, Drummond Coal, Chiquita, etc., in Colombia (where they chainsaw union leaders and throw their body parts into mass graves--documented, not fantasy war talk). (You wonder why there is a FARC--that is why. 40+ years of it.)

3. Economic warfare against Venezuela and against the hotbed of leftist democracies in the Andes region (where all the oil is) (i.e., Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina--all strong allies of Venezuela)--such as Exxon Mobil's moves last week to freeze $12 billion in Venezuela's assets, over a dispute about Venezuela's 60% share in its own oil (money going to social programs for the poor)--a deal that Norway's Statoil, France's Total, British BP and even Chevron agreed to. Destabilization, internal disorder.

4. Get rid of Congress and the State Department*, so the U.S. can "act swiftly" in support of "friends and allies" in South America. The Bushites have no "friends and allies" in South America, except for the fascist thugs running Colombia, the corrupt Peru "free traders," and U.S.-funded rightwing political groups and paramilitaries within Venezuela and its closest allies. I.e., "swift" U.S. military intervention in support of Colombian aggression and fascist coups in Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador and/or Argentina. (My guess--Bolivia will be the first to suffer serious disorder, from the rightwing, Bushite-supported separatists in the rural provinces where the gas and oil reserves are located.)

To sum up: We are looking at Oil War II, orchestrated by Donald Rumsfeld. If you've wondered what he's been doing in his "retirement," since the U.S. military, and China, nixed his plan to nuke Iran--this is what--finding more oil fields to hijack, by force, amidst a shit-storm of lies.)


-----------------------

*(You might think getting rid of Congress and the State Department--which is basically what Rumsfeld urges--is a bit of a Dark Lord fantasy. But the real Democrats in Congress actually DID something right--they blockaded the Colombia "free trade" deal because of the short lifespan of union organizers in Colombia. And the State Dept.? Dunno why he would hate them, except maybe their thrust is more corporate than war profiteer--they don't mind killing lots of people, but, once it's over, they want stability so folks can do bidness--know what I mean?--folks like Chevron and Exxon Mobil. And Rumsfeld, he's a chaos man--more war profiteer than corporatist. Anyway, his line back in December--before the Colombian "free trade "deal" was dead--was economic warfare as the preliminary. That failed. (He wasn't able to get rid of Congress--not yet anyway.) He got Exxon Mobil to fill that void. Now he's ready for war.)

**(Chavez is not a "tyrant." But Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney are.)

[Pavulon]

22. OIL up to 103..

that is a valuable dead communist.

[AlphaCentauri]

44. from that perspective, I'll tell you

Hi oil prices will help to pay for the war in Iraq, don't just speculate that Chavez will benefit from it see the whole picture. The Saudis will have more money to maintain their anti democratic regimens, in Dar fur oil prices will help the genocide to prevail.

Thanks God I do not agree with that point of view.

[Pavulon]

46. And Inflation

may slow down in Venezuela. They supply more oil to us than saudi does.

Chavez is an oil man.

[AlphaCentauri]

56. I see that is your point of view but I don't like undemocratic regimes like the Saudis

I do not like to support Kings that's medieval times.

[Pavulon]

62. Nor do I , Theocrats and communistas

are the price of our dependence on their product. Gold toilets and animal farm are paid for with our money.

I would GLADLY pay $2 more for gas and milk for an energy product that cuts these idiots off at the knees.

Short term pain, long term gain.

Cross party issue should be adopted asap, except they all take money from big oil.

[AlphaCentauri]

67. To do that the whole system needs an overhaul, also I don't like facist

and big money pulls the strings of everybody in politics

[Judi Lynn]

23. Big question about CNN's article: How do you give someone a lot of money when he's a prisoner?

From CNN's prize winning reporting:

Speaking at a news conference, Gen. Oscar Naranjo also said evidence in the computers suggests FARC had given Chavez 100 million pesos when he was a jailed rebel leader.

Would this mean someone brought it to him in a bag as a visitor, and it allowed him a lot of "walking around money," which enabled him to buy many toothbrushes, cigarettes, candy bars? Now you're talking. He must have really lived it up.

I have a feeling Colombian forces brought with them their own bogus "guerrilla laptops" and claimed top guerrilla secrets were exposed. These same laptops allegedly had the goods on evil deeds by the Ecuadorean President, too! Amazing, isn't it?

I'm still interested in the laptop seized by the Colombian attorney general:

Rodrigo Tovar
~snip~
The para-politics scandal has its roots in allegations made following the March 2006 congressional and municipal elections that paramilitary leaders had worked closely with right-wing pro-Uribe candidates in northern Colombia to ensure their victory at the polls. The scandal escalated dramatically following the seizure of a laptop belonging to AUC commander Rodrigo Tovar, also known as “Jorge 40.” The laptop was not delivered to authorities as part of the demobilization process; it was discovered in the possession of Tovar’s right-hand man when he was arrested in early 2006.

According to Colombia’s attorney general’s office, the laptop contained evidence that unemployed peasants in northern Colombia were paid to impersonate paramilitary fighters and to participate in the demobilization process while real paramilitaries continued committing crimes. These crimes, according to information on the laptop, included the killing of 558 individuals in just one region of northern Colombia during the cease-fire. The laptop also contained evidence of paramilitary links to local and national politicians as well as to state security forces. It is the information found on Tovar’s laptop that spawned the para-politics investigation, not confessions or evidence obtained under the Justice and Peace Law.

Despite the evolving rift between the Uribe administration and the paramilitary leaders caused by the para-politics scandal, Mancuso continued to play by the original script when he was called to testify under the Justice and Peace Law in early 2007. The AUC leader only revealed paramilitary collusion with dead or imprisoned politicians and military officers, thereby protecting active representatives of the state. The testimony of other paramilitary leaders primarily focused on revealing the whereabouts of mass graves containing the bodies of the thousands of victims of paramilitary massacres. This strategy was intended to appease human rights and victims rights groups critical of the demobilization processto by creating the illusion that the AUC leaders were confessing all their crimes.

The para-politics scandal, however, continued to evolve. By May 2007, more than 50 national and local elected representatives were under investigation by either Colombia’s attorney general’s office or the Supreme Court for ties to paramilitaries. More than a dozen had been charged with crimes, most of them close political allies of President Uribe. The fact that the para-politics scandal was beginning to tarnish President Uribe’s reputation and undermine the credibility of his administration became apparent when the Colombian leader received a hostile reception on a visit to Washington, DC in early May. Congressional Democrats were outspokenly critical of the Colombian leader and his country’s political and human rights crisis.
(snip)

http://www.colombiajournal.org/colombia258.htm

[EFerrari]

24. I bet those laptops can tell us where Osama is and what happened

to Baby Jane! :wow:

[Judi Lynn]

28. Maybe they can tell us how so many trolls are jamming up D.U.! n/t

[Ghost Dog]

29. And al about Eyeran's nooks, to!!11!!

:smoke:

[Judi Lynn]

33. I'm hoping they'll reveal whatever happened to Judge Crater!

JUDGE CRATER -- VANISHED!
What Happened to the "Missingest Man in
New York"?





http://www.prairieghosts.com/crater.html

[Pavulon]

26. LC is up, So Chavez is happy.

It would be hard to believe that two groups that have been killing each other for many years do not get money from friendly sources. Do you think Hugo, the man in red, does not fund the FARC? I mean I have an opinion, but no one has fact. At least that they are releasing yet.

Just like Saudi funnels money to the Fatah government quietly, I would bet the leftists funnel money to fight the evil us empire. Easily done by funding farc. Obviously we funnel money to columbia.

Communists tend to die in Latin America, it is not uncommon. A full fledged war over communists is not uncommon.

Lets see what Hugo does next. May be more difficult than giving orders to a few thousand guys for show.

[ArfDogMNO]

60. thank you for a voice of reason on this thread

I am amazed at the political naivete expressed by many here. The number of people who judge geopolitical situations in stark black-and-white based on who is 'bush's poodle' is quite frightening. Perhaps they might consider seeing how former hostages of FARC feel about this?

[AlphaCentauri]

77. surely they feel like The Mothers of Plaza de Mayo

The mothers who's sons and daughters look like communist thats why they were thrown in to the ocean.
I don't think the latest killing of the guerrillero would bring any hope for those families of the hostages.

[ArfDogMNO]

81. Indeed, War is Hell. There is no answer to your comment

which will change the heartbreak felt for innocent victims, of which the hostages are only a small part.

[AlphaCentauri]

82. sadly in this board some function like cheer leaders of violence

none of those cheer leaders have been in a situation like many people in latin america

[ArfDogMNO]

84. Are you referring to me? (I don't think so but not sure)

I am sitting ~150 miles from FARC, which has a presence in Darien.

Thankfully the worst of the problems that plague colombia have not reached here yet, though some have....

[AlphaCentauri]

85. no not you n/t

[Peace Patriot]

86. The former hostages want PEACE. They are joining a march for PEACE. They

had just called upon Uribe to start PEACE TALKS and to cooperate with Chavez on more hostage releases. They have been unanimous and quite vocal about this. All four of the former legislators who were recently released just held a press conference about this--just before the deliberate murder by Colombia of the CHIEF HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR, Paul Reyes, in the massacre on the Colombian-Ecuador border.

You ask, "Perhaps they might consider seeing how former hostages of FARC feel about this?". Read the following and you can answer your own question. How do they feel? They must feel like all their suffering was FOR NOTHING--because Colombia just killed any hope for peace and doesn't give a crap about them, or any of the hostages. They didn't want Paul Reyes DEAD. They wanted more hostage negotiations and peace talks to find a political solution!

------------


Chavez, freed FARC hostages call for political solution to Colombian conflict
February 29th 2008, by Kiraz Janicke - Venezuelanalysis.com
Luis Eladio Pérez and Gloria Polanco speaking at the press conference in Caracas (Reuters)

Caracas, March 1, 2008 (venezuelanalysis.com) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has called for international mediation group to negotiate a humanitarian accord in neighboring Colombia, after a successful Venezuelan led humanitarian mission secured the release of four former legislators held by the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), on Wednesday.

During a telephone call to state owned VTV Thursday, Chavez indicated that France, Ecuador, Brazil and Argentina as well as the Organization of American States support such a move. It is "essential" that Venezuela is part of any international mediation group, because "the FARC have demonstrated that they don't believe in anyone else," he added.

In a communiqué, released minutes after the hostage handover the FARC said this would be the last unilateral hostage release. The FARC reiterated their longstanding call for a military free zone as a precondition for any further negotiations for a humanitarian exchange of 40 remaining high profile hostages for 500 imprisoned guerrillas. However, the Colombian government immediately rejected this proposal.

Chavez said the desire for peace by the majority of Colombians and that the pressure of world opinion would force Uribe to change his position.

"President Uribe is going to have to change his position. Everybody is in agreement except for Uribe, " he declared.

Speaking at a press conference in Caracas on Thursday night, the former Colombian legislators, Luis Eladio Pérez, Jorge Gechem, Orlando Beltrán and Gloria Polanco, also spoke out in favor of a military free zone to facilitate a humanitarian exchange.

"I publicly challenge President Alvaro Uribe to demonstrate the success of his policy of democratic security and clear the military from the municipalities of Pradera and Florida and after 45 days the Armed Forces can recuperate this territory," Perez said after his liberation. "The solution is political, Mr. President Uribe," he repeated twice during the press conference.

"If you persist in the foolishness of insisting on a military rescue you are going to receive, Mr President Uribe, 40 or 50 corpses. It is absurd to think of a military rescue with the conditions that we had in captivity. There would be a massacre," Pérez stressed.

He revealed that the four recently liberated ex legislators have a proposal to present "to President Uribe, the President (of France Nicholas) Sarkozy and, of course, to President (of Venezuela, Hugo) Chavez." This proposal would only be made public after the three heads of state had been informed, he said.

Pérez who classified the FARC as a "political military group who use terrorist practices" also referred to former Colombian presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt, captured by the guerrillas in 2001, who he said is in a "very bad state of health."

In a message released in 2003 demonstrating Betancourt's proof of life, the former presidential candidate indicated that she was opposed any form of military rescue, as she feared a repeat of the tragedy that occurred in May that year when ex governor of Antioquia, Gilberto Echeverri, and the del ex Defense Minister, Guillermo Gaviria, died during a botched military rescue ordered by Uribe.

Betancourt maintains this position Perez said, however she is also conscious "of the high risk and lack of commitment of the President of the Republic."

In contrast Betancourt calls for a political solution to the conflict based on the Geneva Convention and believes that "fundamentally President Uribe has to recognize the political status of the FARC guerrillas," Perez said.

Pérez also affirmed that after an attempted escape, Betancourt, "remained chained up during the night," and her captors, "humiliated her, obliged her to walk barefoot, tied her to trees and rationed her food."

Ex congressman Orlando Beltrán condemned "all terrorist acts, wherever they come from. I condemn the terrorism of the FARC, of the paramilitaries and the terrorism of the State." He pointed out that Colombia "is the only country in the world that has disappeared an entire political movement, more than six thousand leaders of Unión Patriótica were disappeared, to speak only of this case."

Under a previous peace accord in the 1980's the FARC demobilized and formed Unión Patriótica, however after they laid down their arms thousands of former guerrillas were hunted down by paramilitaries, backed by the Colombian state, and massacred, forcing them back into the armed struggle.

Beltrán added that the Colombian State "has to assume responsibility and understand that they must create the conditions to achieve a humanitarian accord. I don't understand why, when make these handovers in a unilateral manner, they say they are not going to clear the military from a centimeter of the national territory."

Gloria Polanco asserted, "It is necessary to reach the heart of President Uribe, to speak to him, to explain, because he has to understand that if he does not clear the military from Pradera and Florida, which is what the FARC ask, our comrades will die in captivity."

"I am asking for a humanitarian accord, because they have to place value on life, not on a piece of land, not on a piece of territory," she said.

All four ex-legislators confirmed that they would participate in an international day of action organized by human rights organizations on March 6 in protest against paramilitary violence in Colombia. Uribe has condemned the protest scheduled to take place in some 150 cities around the world, claiming it is organized by the FARC.

(emphasis added)
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3213
(Note: Venezuela Analysis is a Fair Use web site.)

[AlphaCentauri]

93. Uribes actions were a sabotage to peace

anybody who has follow the events knows that all the political movement was to liberate and disarm the FARC.

[EFerrari]

87. Several of them probably feel grateful to Hugo Chavez. n/t

[High Plains]

100. While you're at it...

Why don't you ask the survivors of Colombian military and paramilitary massacres how they feel?

Why don't you ask the family members of all the murdered trade unionists how they feel?

The FARC has no monopoly on political violence in Colombia.

[ArfDogMNO]

112. Agreed, in Colombia there is plenty of blame. I do not feel that this

excuses simply ignoring the role FARC has played in this.

[bitchkitty]

63. How freaking idiotic can you possibly be?

"Communists tend to die in Latin America..."

Why don't you do a little research into just WHY and HOW they die? In the first place, "Communist" is an all-inclusive label for anyone who stands in the way of American profits in Latin America.

"Communists die" - men, women and children are killed by US-funded monsters with death squads and American weapons. Brought to us by the same people who send trolls to message boards to post the kind of shit that you just did.

[High Plains]

97. I thought the FARC was getting rich off coca and cocaine...

...like all the other players in Colombia.

[AlphaCentauri]

102. I was wondering that too

they could have a mantion, why they had to sleep in the jungle for so many years.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

115. You forgot the boiling frogs, Animal Farm, petro state, pimp and

communista (because we all know if you put an "a" at the end of the word it makes it even more sinister. But kudos to you on bringing the red shirt for the millionth time.

[Dave From Canada]

123. I'd also like to thank you for a voice of reason. Hugobots really annoy me sometimes. They must

have a pair of Rummy's rose-coloured glasses.

[AlphaCentauri]

36. how do they power those laptops with dynamos? and what ISP they use?

I mean are they using google maps to move in the jungle?
how do they get their ink for the printer?
did they have access to myspace?

[Pavulon]

38. mine

ran off a diesel generator or a dc inverter. ISP provided by satellite. This was around many years ago, and I am sure is still available.

Might even explain how this communist was found and killed.

[AlphaCentauri]

39. So maybe the ISP did spy on them for not paying on time

and you know in Colombia you don't have to be communist to be kill, so don't worry.

[Pavulon]

41. ISP would not need to be helping(nt)

[Judi Lynn]

43. That's for damned sure. Too much information already out about both the military & the death squads

slaughtering people in villages then dressing them so they LOOK like rebels, for appearances. It has been admitted formally by these fools.

They kill people they may suspect are leftist sympathizers, or for many other reasons, including being union workers, human rights workers, journalists, etc. If they don't like what someone's doing they explain killing him as killing someone who's working for the enemy, as with reporters who do material they don't like.

[Pavulon]

47. Seems like they killed

a communist terrorist. A bit to overtly, but a big farc fish is now dead. I wonder if he killed himself by using a sat phone or who sold him out?

[Judi Lynn]

50. Uribe's claim to Correa was that the rebels were firing at them and that's why they had to go in

there and wipe them out. Fat chance, since they were all asleep when they were slaughtered.

[Pavulon]

54. Big guy dead..

"slaughter" is a risk in that business. FARC is not a labor group. They should know the business they are in. Seems they managed to kill a columbian raider, maybe they were sleep walking..

[AlphaCentauri]

53. I'll check if those communist terrorist have a myspace website

don't forget they were trying to buy uranium, see Iran and Korea with all their resources couldn't make a nuke out of it, those guys may have some new technology.

On the other hand never go to Colombia, there, if you are a communist the government will kill you, if you look like a communist they'll kill you too, if you question the elites then you look like a communist and you know what happened. if you are a drug addict don't worry narco lords in the government do free home shipping and the last one, you could be kidnap by the FARC.

Colombia is a state with many problems to solve and little has been done.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

91. You WILL believe in whatever bullshit accusations the Colombians say was in that laptop, won't you?

I advise you to type a feet or so away from the keyboard. Your salivation might short circuit it.

[stimbox]

96. Farc only has Tom as a friend...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=318236762

[polticalpout]

25. No denial yet from Chavez that he gave the terrorist organization the $

And yea, FARC are terrorists.

[EFerrari]

90. Ah, yes, of course there was a denial. It's in #3.

[High Plains]

99. Let's cut out this "terrorist" bullshit, shall we?

The FARC is a guerrilla army that has been around since the 1960s. It is a belligerent actor in a low-level civil war that has been going on ever since then.

The word "terrorist" and all its variants should be scrubbed from the political discourse. It is purely a term of propaganda generally meaning "someone who commits political violence of which we do not approve."

Palestinian bombers = terrorists
Israeli bombers = not

Al Qaeda in Iraq = terrorists
US in Iraq = not

Salvadoran FMLN = terrorists
Nicaraguan Contras = freedom fighters

Taliban = terrorists
Northern Alliance = not

[Joe Chi Minh]

30. Peter and the Wolf springs to mind, but without the wolf turning up.

I think that'll be the lupine Peter, himself, donning his Grandma drag.

[ngant17]

31. "Evidence"? As in psy-ops and spin

Since when has Uribe actually been consistent with the facts?

This man is part of a narcotrafficker-industrialist clique in Bogotá, Colombia. Check his past record. Uribe had been on the DEA’s "most wanted" list until he was suborned by the CIA in a deal in which he was to be used against all the guerrilla forces in the Americas. He is obeying his masters in Washington very well. He has nothing to fear from FARC because he will get plenty of protection oweing to his steadfast loyalty toward US imperialism.

I think in Latin America there is something called the Treaty of Tlatelolco, which Washington completely ignores. Uribe must know this much. It is the Treaty for the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons in Latin America and the Caribbean. I think that FARC, being itself representative of the aspirations of a great majority of Columbians, and like all other Latin America governments, they do not want this plague to be here. So this accusation of the purchase of the "yellow cake", the uranium isotopes, or whatever they want to call it, this is of course nuclear bomb-making material, but it is an absurdity, a total absurdity to bring up this malicious progaganda against FARC. There are real idiots at work for Uribe these days.

http://www.opanal.org/opanal/Tlatelolco/P-Tlatelolco-i.htm

It is really the US of A which needs to be held accountable for its steadfast refusal to make this hemisphere free of nuclear weapons. What does that have to do with FARC? Nothing.

[Peace Patriot]

35. Oh, man, you GOTTA see BoRev.net about this!

It is hilarious!

www.BoRev.net. Go there now!

[AlphaCentauri]

37. ROFL

:rofl:

Oh man this guy knows what he is talking about, he must be a latino.

[Judi Lynn]

40. Omigod!

That is SO good! And so right, too! It takes that special effort to get people to remember to put together the fragments they've already learned, instead of waiting for the corporate media to spin it all for them.

Gotta remember that name: BoRev.net
Thanks!

[Peace Patriot]

42. One thing about BoRev.net--funny as it is, you always LEARN something there.

And I just learned this: The person that Uribe's forces were targeting, and killed in his sleep, Raul Reyes, was the CHIEF HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR. HE was the person that Chavez had talked into releasing the six hostages. They killed him! They goddamned killed the key person in the hostage releases, and no doubt the key person for peace talks.

This means that the hostage negotiations are OVER. Fini. Kaput. No more will be freed. And it means the hopes for peace are dead. It also means that the hostages were nothing more to Uribe and his Bushite masters than pawns in the Oil War game.

Jeez. It's worse than I thought. I thought it was just an opportunistic target. They KNEW who they were going after. They LIED to Rafael Correa (president of Ecuador) that it was a hot pursuit. Reyes and his group were not shooting at anybody. They were hiding out, asleep, in a camp. And somehow the Colombia fascists found out where Reyes was, and went and KILLED HIM and 16 others. Only one Colombian soldier died, and that means it was a slaughter.

Oh, my! I'm beginning to understand why Hugo Chavez was so upset. They killed the guy he was negotiating with!

And, furthermore, the negotiations and the hostages releases were undoubtedly why Reyes and his group--who normally hide deep in the jungle--were more vulnerable to such an attack.

Well, I hope this is the end of Uribe--and of Rumsfeld's and the Bushites' stinking activities. I hope the OAS throws Colombia AND the U.S. out of the organization. Daniel Ortega proposed that, at the meeting of Latin American countries, Spain and Portugal, recently--forming an OAS without the U.S. as a member. (There was a four hour meeting about it--news of which got eclipsed by the tiff between the Chavez and Juan Carlos.) Now, the Bushite puppetmastery in Colombia is plain for all to see. They went and killed the hope for peace in Colombia's civil war. That is unforgivable.

[AlphaCentauri]

48. The guy resumed all that we have been discussing here this morning plus

he used the proper terms 'he invaded Ecuador'

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

92. BoRev's article, plus this comment of yours, deserve an OP.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

94. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2957407

[struggle4progress]

117. Now Colombia even says they found Reyes by tracking hostage-release-related traffic:

the old don't even try to release your hostages or we'll hunt you down and kill you routine

Alleged Chávez's call to Reyes revealed location of FARC camp
A phone call Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez allegedly made to rebel leader Raúl Reyes revealed the location of the guerilla leader, according to Colombian intelligence reports radio station Radio Cadena Nacional (RCN) disclosed on Wednesday ...
http://english.eluniversal.com/2008/03/05/en_colcd_art_oas:-ecuador,-colomb_05A1410289.shtml

[Judi Lynn]

118. I recall that for the last two weeks Colombia was telling the world they knew exactly where the

rebels were keeping the hostages.

Interesting new bit of info. they just floated about how they allegedly located this group inside Ecuador.

Looks as if there's almost nothing we can believe from the Colombian government other than they want more U.S. taxpayers' dollars, and make it snappy!

[Andrushka]

70. Brilliant!

Calls the BS out for what it is.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlphaCentauri]

49. see for your self

http://www.aidc.org.za/?q=book/view/126

[Judi Lynn]

52. Love that quote in the article:

Eduardo Galeano once said, speaking about the global media companies, "Never before have so few fooled so many."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This reminds me I got a book by Eduardo Galeano for Christmas which I've been too busy to read, and I'd better get busy!

Thanks for posting the article.

[AlphaCentauri]

55. I like an interview were

Galeano says " ..in Venezuela every day in the morning you turn on the TV, the first thing you listen is that in Venezuela there is no freedom of speech, could they say that if there were no freedom of speech?"

[ArfDogMNO]

64. It is human nature, and I do not understand why people insist on thinking

they can have socialism without the human element in the nature of the government.

"Jesus Christ, is it that hard to take such a great humanitarian concept and NOT F'k it up every time?"

Yes, and those who insist on forcing this concept on the masses time and time again have killed tens of millions directly (consult Joe Stalin, mao tse-tung)

Power corrupts. It is how we are made. To deny it is to repeat the experiments of Imperial Russia --> USSR, China -->PRC, etc., time and time again.

[EFerrari]

88. Americans are probably the last people who should be lecturing anyone

on failed social experiments.

[ArfDogMNO]

111. Please illuminate us with your wisdom

To which failed experiments do you refer? How do they compare with the Glorious Revolution in China, the Rise of the Soviet Union, and other notable failed social experiments?

Somehow I cannot see how a country where the government isn't killing millions via various direct methods, and where virtually everyone can eat, as a failure.

[EFerrari]

114. Um, how many people have we killed in Iraq? And everyone can't eat here.

There seem to be some places where light does not penetrate.

[Bacchus39]

51. so despite the hysteria here, Colombia simply ignores the military build up near its borders

as well they should.

"Meanwhile, Colombia said Monday it won't send troops to its southwest and northeast borders, where Venezuelan and Ecuadoran military forces were to be separately deployed after a Colombian raid into Ecuador."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080303/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/south_america_saber_rattling

"But otherwise, there was relative calm on the ground. Colombia's defense minister, Juan Manuel Santos, said no extraordinary military moves were planned, and vowed not to be drawn into a conflict with Chavez. "

"I prefer to leave President Chavez out of this discussion," he said. "We're not commenting on what he does, says or suggests."


The rebel presence has made many Venezuelans who live near the border uneasy. Chavez's threats have only made these people more anxious. And war fever seemed absent from the streets of Caracas.

"I hope Chavez isn't thinking about the madness of sending our sons to die in an absurd war with Colombia," said Carmen Arellano, a 41-year-old homemaker. "Chavez wants to fight a war to conceal the social and economic crisis in this country."

Venezuelan political analyst Teodoro Petkoff said he doesn't believe war is imminent, despite Chavez's rhetoric: "For me he's a barking dog that doesn't bite."

[AlphaCentauri]

57. It's going to take a wild for them to invade another country n/t

[Bacchus39]

58. a "wild", no entiendo. seems like Chavez and Correa are well are their way

n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

66. ask Uribe not me

I don't have the answer you want to listen

[Bacchus39]

68. I don't want the war that you do

n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

73. Thanks but I advocate for peace not for murder

I don't care who negotiate peace in Colombia, I just want to see peace there. All those advocating murder and violence favoring the invasion of another country are simple wrong.

[ArfDogMNO]

69. Chavez would like nothing more than to be head of state of

Gran Colombia, which is today split into ecuador, colombia, and venezuela.

Mark my words, this man will at some point provoke a regional war.

[Pavulon]

72. Panama too..

since he thinks he is bolivar he would want panama back.

[ArfDogMNO]

83. (from someone sitting in Panama City)

He knows it would never be allowed. The Canal Treaty remains in force (the neutrality clause), and even Chavez knows better than to mouth off about it. He uses the carrot approach here, but Panama is implicity under the US security blanket, and quietly works with the US on the Darien/Farc problem.

Also, was the isthmus part of Gran Colombia? IIRC it was part of the Estados Unidos Centroamericanos?

[Judi Lynn]

59. Military buildup? Hot one! DU'ers are certainly too bright to buy that crap.

Speaking of military build-up along the border, we are well aware that Uribe has mentioned building not one, but THREE MILITARY BASES on the Colombia Venezuela border, once it was understood the Manta Base in Ecuador was going to be closed to the U.S.

Now THAT'S a military build-up.

No fool in his right mind would fault Venezuela and Ecuador in wanting to keep Uribe's forces out of their countries.

It's not as if armed Colombians haven't ALREADY barged in there and set up camp outside Caracas, at the behest of Cuban-Venezuelan asshole, opposition militant activist, Roberto Alonso, where they were captured, and questioned, and jailed. Many of them were allowed to return to Colombia at a later date, an act most Presidents wouldn't consider. Chavez said they hadn't harmed anyone, at that point, and had been following someone else's direction, and turned them loose.

[Bacchus39]

61. straight from the jackasses' mouth. Chavez ordered troops to the border

that's more than enough evidence for you. maybe they'll try keeping the FARC out of their countries now???? I doubt it.

[fascisthunter]

103. Damn Right We ARE

:toast:

[ArfDogMNO]

65. Mr. Arellano should consult DU on why his views are incorrect ntxt

[AlphaCentauri]

74. yep, reading to many press releases won't help n/t

[bhikkhu]

80. Perhaps holding out for more military aid

body counts require $ in Latin America, and the history just of what we "know" is nearly beyond belief particularly in Columbia...hopefully things will be different this time.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. The U.S. has no right to complain

not after funding

1. The Contras against the Sandinistas in Nicaragua (who were elected TWICE in elections that international observers agreed were fair)

2. The Mujahadeen in Afghanistan

3. the CIA-backed overthrow of several governments, including those of Iran, Brazil, Guatemala, Panama, Grenada, Haiti, Chile, and some we probably never learned about

[AlphaCentauri]

75. How much money from drug traffic goes to the colombian paramilitaries? n/t

[EFerrari]

89. East Timor, South Viet Nam. n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

116. You can add Vietnam, Cyprus, East Timor,....oh never mind. n/t

[Codedonkey]

120. I'm doubting this whole thing is ture..

or maybe it is.. I don't know. But let's just assume it is for the sake of argument. While the US government may have no right to complain, that doesn't make it right. Two wrongs don't make a right...

[Zorra]

76. I don't believe it. In all likelihood, this is a load of propaganda.

[AlphaCentauri]

78. to change the focus off the real problem n/t

[Codedonkey]

121. Brittney Spears?

[HuffleClaw]

79. now THAT is some good old fashioned cold war ruuuuskie propaganda!!!

i particularly like the bit about the uranium

[AlphaCentauri]

95. sounds like a more recently WMDs allegations in the middle east

The Uranium staff must be the most stupid allegation, countries like Iran haven't been able to develop a nuke how come a guerrilla in the jungle would do it.

[Vidar]

98. Trying to overthrow our corrupt Columbian puppet government? Bravo Chavez!

[Dave From Canada]

122. It's not his business to overthrow other countries governments. Just as it isn't Bush's either.