Bush Vetoes Bill Banning Torture

[Scurrilous]

Source: CBS News

Says CIA May Need To Use Harsh Interrogation Techniques That Critics Call Black Mark On America

<snip>

"President George W. Bush said Saturday he vetoed legislation that would ban the CIA from using harsh interrogation methods such as waterboarding to break suspected terrorists because it would end practices that have prevented attacks.

"The bill Congress sent me would take away one of the most valuable tools in the war on terror," Mr. Bush said in his weekly radio address taped for broadcast Saturday. "So today I vetoed it."

The bill he rejected provides guidelines for intelligence activities for the year and has the interrogation requirement as one provision. It cleared the House of Representatives in December and the Senate last month.

"This is no time for Congress to abandon practices that have a proven track record of keeping America safe," the president said."

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/08/national/main3919474.shtml

[joshdawg]

1. torture bill

Surprise! Surprise! Surprise, sergeant Carter!!! ala Gomer Pyle.

[NYC Liberal]

2. I thought we didn't torture, George!

Funny that.

[gratuitous]

7. Not to mention

Bush categorically asserts that torture has "a proven track record." Really? Or is he just mixing up reality with an episode of "24" again? But we don't torture. But it has a proven track record. Thankfully, impeachment is off the table, so we won't know the truth anytime soon.

[NYC Liberal]

46. Impeachment... it should be "indictment" at this point.

These people are criminals, they belong in prison.

[SpiralHawk]

3. "Perfectly EVIL. Mars is opposite Pluto today." - Ronald Reagan's Dead Republicon Astrologer*

"The perfect OCCULT Celestial Signature for an unmitigated anti-American, antiChristian Act of Evil, by a republicon Skull & Boner occultist!"

- Ronald Reagan's Dead Republicon Astrologer*



* Courageously channeled by Spiral Hawk, who took the PPP (Proper Prophylactic Precaution) of consuming 1/2 dozen cream-filled doughnuts beforehand to protect the purity of his Precious Bodily Fluids before entering the darkest recesses of the occult republicon netherworld.

[Oreegone]

4. Ok, Mr. Bush your point is lost once again.

PANAMA CITY — President Bush strongly defended U.S. interrogation practices for detainees held in the war on terrorism Monday, insisting, "We do not torture."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-11-07-bush-terror-suspects_x.htm

[frogcycle]

5. Solidifying that legacy

[saigon68]

22. War Criminal

This will be his legacy

[thunder rising]

6. "one of the most valuable tools"...use it on Arab kids to get the goods on terra-ist parents.

[Diclotican]

8. Scurrilous

Scurrilous

Just wait to se when the next american are in trouble, in a country where the police, and other or in a state with no authority at all, where gangs and it like have get hold on a american citizen. And are torturing the unlucky person.. Then you would find the whole US up in anger. The media, the press, the american public and the president... And they would not even men chen that US in fact allow torture on others...

And, was not TORTURE banned as a tool before in US?..

This is bad, very bad, and dead wrong.. And would do NOTHING to give United States of America a better star in the rest of the world.. You are no better than Say Somalia now... And Somalia are in the other end of the specter - until now then...


Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

[skepticscott]

14. Let's just imagine

A small group of American military personnel whose vehicle has strayed over the Iran border, or a pilot whose plane has crashed in Iran. The Iranians, having heard from our own mouths for a long time that we are contemplating military action against them if we feel they are getting too big for their nuclear britches, believe that this incursion is part of a prelude to an imminent attack. Their own security interests, they decide, require them to find out more from the captured soldiers, and when normal interrogation methods are ineffective, they resort to torture. Our soldiers protest that they know nothing about any attack, but are told by their captors, "Well, we'll soon see, won't we?" What would the reaction of George Bush and his neocon allies be to Iran's use of torture on our military personnel for exactly the same reasons and under exactly the same circumstances that they claim justify our own unrestricted use of such tactics? The question hardly needs to be asked.

[davekriss]

41. Surely yours is a rhetorical question...

...as Bush would use such an event as the casus belli for invasion. We all know our imperial leader believes might makes right, and he believes he has the might. Our State does not believe in symmetrical grants of rights and priviledges. We don't believe in reciprocity, that what's right for us is right for everyone. That was made clear, officially, by the words of the National Security Strategy of the United States (NSS), published at whitehouse gov in September of 2002. In it we said we would take any state and military option at our disposal to pre-emptively destroy any plans or attempts to usurp our hegemony. We only have to think the other nation has nefarious future plans to go to war -- we require no evidence, no immnient threat. The NSS even strongly suggests we would go to war to keep another nation's marginal tax rates low! But no other nation is allowed to do the same as, the NSS says, our State will crush them if they try. If you never have, read the NSS of 2002. It's chilling.

Many people understand that torture is not an effective means to surface actionable intelligence, as the tortured will say anything, agree to everything, to make the pain stop. No, torture is a tool in the State's arsenal meant to wreak terror on the population out of which the tortured are plucked. It is meant to smash the will to resist. Torture is thus public. In the case of Guantanamo, it stands out like a beacon on the world's stage, saying 'this will happen to you, your spouse, your children, your grandmother if you continue to agitate for democratic freedom against our will; we will force you to name names -- even innocent names -- so we can widen the net of terror and weaken trust and solidarity back home, crumbling the foundation to populist movements. There will be no one left to trust.' Torture is meant to despirit the sentiment and motivation (again) of the population back home.

In Central America in the Reagan eighties we trained the security establishments of right-wing states to torture (as well as use other techniques) to quell the left-oriented popular desire for clean hospitals, for schools, for more equitable distribution of wealth. Note that the tortured dead of the general citizenry were left at roadsides, or buried in mass shallow graves easily found; others were tortured to near death and returned to tell their tales and be seen, thereby sending a chill into the rest of the population. The most concise description of the American-trained way used then and now can be found here, by Steve Kangas (who died mysteriously in the bathrooms of Richard Scaife's offices of (I read) two gunshots to the head -- ruled a suicide, of course).

Getting back to the point of the poster before me, no one can reasonably expect the Bush administration to be concerned about reciprocity and moral symmetry, as Bush's ethics come out of Mein Kampf.

[skepticscott]

48. It was definitely rhetorical

We all know the Shrub cadre would emphatically denounce the use of torture by any other country against Americans, even if we had claimed to be entitled to use it against that country's citizens, and that they would use it to inflame pro-war sentiment in the US.

[Diclotican]

45. skepticscott

skepticscott

If they believe that the group of american military personnel are one of the spear to attack Iran, the iranians would use whatever means to get the information, regardless of they are telling the truth, or not..

And by the standard the current Administration have given their own soldiers, everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is up to the Iranian authority to decide.. America can NOT complain, and refer to the Geneva-conventions, or other part of tract-ates US already have broken repeatedly.. The poor soldiers would just be over given, to the iranians mercy...

And what that would end in, is anyones gusss... But I would not be in the foot gear of the service men and/or woman who are been taken into custody by the special branches of the Iranian armed forces.. After all they are used tactic courtesy of Fort Branning USA... The old SAVAK, was teaching allot of their torture-methods after the Iranian revolution... MANY of the old regime was given the choice. Either teach us. or you and you whole family would die...

And the current regime in Tehran have used the techniques to treat their enemies BAD before.. That can some of my co-worker tell me when we was talking about it....

If USA can torture, it can be used by others.. And if US are violent, and barbaric in their actions.. Many other country are probably mutch better to use the teqnices.. And even have the advantage of hundred of year of finished the use... China have just 5000 year of that stuff.... And they KNOW how to torture.. THey have things in their coffins, whou would give the Fort Banning torturmaster the shiver of shame of the blend torture them are teaching out...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

[Tumbulu]

9. This is so outrageous

Why can't he be impeached??????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SpiralHawk]

10. Bush is LYING blatantly. The Evil-Doer-in-Chief is on the record about this

[ConcernedCanuk]

11. George Bush is insane

.
.
.

The USA is not waging a War on Terror

The USA is waging a War OF Terror.

And winning.

[mschmal]

12. The Constitution and International Law still prevails.

Bush's veto is not the final word.

Waterboarding is still unConstitutionally cruel and also a violation of International Law. It is a violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of which the US is a signator. It is also violation of US Treaty obligations pursuant to the UN Convention Against Torture.

Remember under the Constitution Art. VI, Treaties of the US are the supreme law of the land.

Whether or not Waterboarding is specifically defined as torture or not is irrelevant as to whether it is illegal.

In other words, Waterboarding was already illegal. Even if the President states that Waterboarding is not cruel enough to violate the Constitution, the Courts could still disagree.

Consider the kind of country we live in.

The former president lied about receiving oral sex and was impeached.
The current president sanctions torture.

Mark

[JBoy]

18. Well said, and welcome to DU Mark!

[UALRBSofL]

13. I'll be so glad when he is out of office

It can't come soon enough.

[Algorem]

15. Dems condemn decision

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/bush-vetoes-intelligence-bill-democrats-condemn-decision-2008-03-08.html


...Democrats struck a defiant tone, with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) saying the House would try to override the veto. However, the measure did not pass with veto-proof majorities in either chamber.

“In the final analysis, our ability to lead the world will depend not only on our military might, but on our moral authority,” Pelosi said. “We will begin to reassert that moral authority by attempting to override the President’s veto next week. The world must know that America does not torture.”

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) said: “Even as the President warns against ignoring the advice of our commanders in Iraq, he has rejected the Army Field Manual’s recognition that such horrific tactics elicit unreliable information, put U.S. troops at risk and undermine our counterinsurgency efforts.”

In the Democratic radio address, Iraq and Afghanistan veteran Roger Martinez spoke out against Sen. John McCain’s (R-Ariz.) presidential campaign. McCain earned the required delegates for the GOP nomination on Tuesday, while the Democratic race between Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) and Barack Obama (Ill.) persists...

[Karenina]

23. Moral authority???

:rofl::rofl::rofl: THAT got flushed down with the citizens of NOLA.

[NoodleyAppendage]

16. Supreme IRONY. Torture is one "of the most valuable tools in the war on terror."

Using terror to fight terror...only a Moran President and sociopath would follow this line of logic.

J

[VP505]

17. OK, so lets veto his Presidency!

If there wasn't already enough reason to impeach the a-hole in Chief this veto ought to remove any doubt that he deserves it NOW!!!

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

19. Now your legacy is secure, George.

You don't have to worry any more about what history will say about you- it's just been carved into the bones of your family bloodline for all time.

*bush The Impaler is born.

[Algorem]

20. "Good morning. This week, I addressed the Department of Home-

land Security on its fifth anniversary and thanked the men and women who work tirelessly to keep us safe. Because of their hard work, and the efforts of many across all levels of government, we have not suffered another attack on our soil since September the 11th, 2001.

This is not for a lack of effort on the part of the enemy. Al Qaida remains determined to attack America again. Two years ago, Osama bin Laden warned the American people, "Operations are under preparation, and you will see them on your own ground once they are finished." Because the danger remains, we need to ensure our intelligence officials have all the tools they need to stop the terrorists.

Unfortunately, Congress recently sent me an intelligence authorization bill that would diminish these vital tools. So today, I vetoed it. And here is why:

The bill Congress sent me would take away one of the most valuable tools in the war on terror –- the CIA program to detain and question key terrorist leaders and operatives. This program has produced critical intelligence that has helped us prevent a number of attacks. The program helped us stop a plot to strike a U.S. Marine camp in Djibouti, a planned attack on the U.S. consulate in Karachi, a plot to hijack a passenger plane and fly it into Library Tower in Los Angeles, and a plot to crash passenger planes into Heathrow Airport or buildings in downtown London. And it has helped us understand al Qaida's structure and financing and communications and logistics. Were it not for this program, our intelligence community believes that al Qaida and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland.

The main reason this program has been effective is that it allows the CIA to use specialized interrogation procedures to question a small number of the most dangerous terrorists under careful supervision. The bill Congress sent me would deprive the CIA of the authority to use these safe and lawful techniques. Instead, it would restrict the CIA's range of acceptable interrogation methods to those provided in the Army Field Manual. The procedures in this manual were designed for use by soldiers questioning lawful combatants captured on the battlefield. They were not intended for intelligence professionals trained to question hardened terrorists.

Limiting the CIA's interrogation methods to those in the Army Field Manual would be dangerous because the manual is publicly available and easily accessible on the Internet. Shortly after 9/11, we learned that key al Qaida operatives had been trained to resist the methods outlined in the manual. And this is why we created alternative procedures to question the most dangerous al Qaida operatives, particularly those who might have knowledge of attacks planned on our homeland. The best source of information about terrorist attacks is the terrorists themselves. If we were to shut down this program and restrict the CIA to methods in the Field Manual, we could lose vital information from senior al Qaida terrorists, and that could cost American lives.

The bill Congress sent me would not simply ban one particular interrogation method, as some have implied. Instead, it would eliminate all the alternative procedures we've developed to question the world's most dangerous and violent terrorists. This would end an effective program that Congress authorized just over a year ago.

The fact that we have not been attacked over the past six-and-a-half years is not a matter of chance. It is the result of good policies and the determined efforts of individuals carrying them out. We owe these individuals our thanks, and we owe them the authorities they need to do their jobs effectively.

We have no higher responsibility than stopping terrorist attacks. And this is no time for Congress to abandon practices that have a proven track record of keeping America safe.

Thank you for listening.''

[LynnTheDem]

21. bUsh to world;

We torture, and you can, too!

NO WHINING when AMERICAN SOLDIERS and/or civilians are WATERBOARDED. Just SUCK IT UP.

Now that the world has US permission to torture you, are ya feeling safer yet???

[Purveyor]

24. Bush: Waterboarding Must Be Preserved To Prevent Attacks

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON - President Bush said Saturday he vetoed legislation that would ban the CIA from using harsh interrogation methods such as waterboarding to break suspected terrorists because it would end practices that have prevented attacks.

"The bill Congress sent me would take away one of the most valuable tools in the war on terror," Bush said in his weekly radio address taped for broadcast Saturday. "So today I vetoed it," Bush said. The bill provides guidelines for intelligence activities for the year and includes the interrogation requirement. It passed the House in December and the Senate last month.

"This is no time for Congress to abandon practices that have a proven track record of keeping America safe," the president said.

Supporters of the legislation say it would preserve the United States' ability to collect critical intelligence and raise country's moral standing abroad.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Congress would work to override Bush's veto next week. "In the final analysis, our ability to lead the world will depend not only on our military might, but on our moral authority," said Pelosi, D-Calif.



Read more: http://www.startribune.com/nation/16413281.html

[LynnTheDem]

25. bUsh to world;

We torture, and you can, too!

The first American soldier (or civilian) who is waterboarded...SUCK IT UP.

[saigon68]

26. War Criminal

Scum Bag's legacy

[fascisthunter]

27. I'm Sure People Like Hitler WOuld Have Felt the Same Way

Bush is in "great" company.

[Cant trust em]

28. waterboarding is what keeps us safe?

Good lord how desperate have we become?

Also, here is the best thing Nancy Pelosi has ever said.

"In the final analysis, our ability to lead the world will depend not only on our military might, but on our moral authority," said Pelosi, D-Calif.

[mac56]

29. Waterboard HIS sorry ass.

See how he likes it.

[liberal N proud]

30. Permitting waterboarding will insure more attacks

It will help bolster the hate that bu$h has cultivated around the world and give terrorist groups reason to hate us.

Bu$h has got to be the stupidest fucker to ever darken the door step of the white house.

[Cant trust em]

31. McCain has flip flopped

he voted against the bill though he has publicly stated his disapproval of waterboarding.

Here's to using this against him in the fall.

:toast:

[RC]

37. McCain is way beyond Flip/Flopping. He is a Shape Shifter.

He will change to whatever he needs to be for the moment. And Hillary embraced McCain over Obama? What has this country become?

[lordsummerisle]

32. Like many Bush's policies

this will have the opposite effect.

[ixion]

33. to the Hague with thee, war criminal

I will have no part in your torture.

[The Stranger]

34. "I'm Nancy Pelosi, and I made sure torture would be legalized."

Oh Nancy Disaster, we hardly knew ya.

[bluerum]

35. Yeah. A suicide bomber is going to worry about getting dunked.

[quiet.american]

36. What "proven track record of keeping America safe" ?!

HORRIFIC. The man is an abomination. And that John McCain stood next to him like some kind of Manchurian Candidate grinning that disturbing smile of his while Bush gave him his blessing -- good Lord.

[jcla]

38. Bush's call is to drown the guilty to save the innocent...

except for the fact that waterboarding is wrong, illegal and stupid ... just who does Bush think is a candidate for waterboarding... do we start with anyone opposed to his policies.. his enemies list... anyone he and his buddies in and out the of the CIA feel is a threat... for instance, many U.S. voters.... the townships of Brattleboro and Newfane in Vermont...

[LynnTheDem]

39. Look how well TORTURE did to prevent 911!

Yes, our TORTURING other people makes us ever so much SAFER!!!

Well, except when Americans are TORTURED by other nations. And except for the increased hatred of us for our incredibly deep total hypocrisy.

And when the US government starts TORTURING its own people.

AMERICA TORTURES PEOPLE. Oh I am just so fucking proud of America rah rah fucking rah.

[davekriss]

40. Forget "moral standing abroad"...

...it would improve moral standing at home. What George W Bush and the former rubber stamp Republican Congress have done in our name is unacceptable. The Office of the President of the United States was usurped in December 12 2000 by a man without ethical compass, without an ounce of compassion, and with global greed of such enormity that he lies us into crony-profitable war, surely spies on the political opposition to quell dissent, decimates our Treasury for many generations to come, and rots out our economy for us today.

Worst - President - Ever.

[texastoast]

42. Burn in hell, shrubbie

Yours is coming.

[uppityperson]

43. k&r since it looks like combining threads did away with a bunch of recs.

[ananda]

44. Bush is one sick sociopath.

nt

[texshelters]

47. Again the President of the "world's leading democracy" proves

that he has no compassion. The following excerpt focuses on the fact that torture doesn't work, while pretending that it does. Torture doesn't get you reliable information:

(Start Excerpt)
Even though rendition and torture improve our democracy, there are some so-called experts out there that think torture doesn’t lead to confession and are against it. These include:

Rear Admiral (retired) John Hutson is against torture just because he thinks “ ‘cruel, inhuman or degrading conduct, are not part of our national character’ ” (Amnesty International: 2006). What does he know? He was an Admiral. He probably never left his ship to deal with real terrorists!

Bob Baer, former CIA official, thinks that torture just scares people, but you never get the truth out of the CIA. He thinks the only thing we might get is false confessions. Well Bob, maybe we want to scare them, and then make up our own truth later. Ever thought of that?

Lawrence Korb, former Naval Intelligence officer and Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration, thinks that if we torture the enemy, they will feel okay torturing us. The man acts as if he has children in the military. Calm down there buckaroo! If you don’t have kids in the military, then don’t worry about our troops getting tortured. If he thinks our troops can’t handle torture better than the towel-heads, then he supports terrorists.

Michael Scheuer, formerly a senior CIA official in the Counter-Terrorism Center, thinks that by torturing a suspect, he’s going to just spill his guts and tell us “‘whatever you want to hear.’” Isn’t that the point?

Dan Coleman, retired FBI agent, tells us that by torturing others we might “‘lose our souls’” (ibid). Who made him God?

All these so-called experts from military intelligence, the CIA and the FBI don’t know anything about terrorism. If they did, they would know that torture not only helps us feel superior to others. The knowledge that terrorists are being tortured, despite the fact it might not work, keeps up the morale of the soldiers in the field and the folks back home. (End Excerpt)


Tex Shelters