Nader might sway November presidential election, poll shows

[swag]

Source: MarketWatch

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- Sen. John McCain has moved ahead of both of his potential Democratic rivals in a Zogby International poll that also includes independent Ralph Nader on the ballot. McCain, R-Ariz., would beat Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., by five points and Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., by six points, according to the survey of 1,001 likely voters conducted March 13 and 14. Consumer activist Nader polls at 6% in a general-election matchup between McCain and Clinton and at 5% in a McCain-Obama tilt. "Nader's presence in the race can potentially turn a lulu of a race into an absolute tizzy," said pollster John Zogby. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.2 percentage points.

Read more: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/nader-might-sway-november-presidential/story.aspx?guid=%7B11D74905%2D7D4B%2D487E%2D82F0%2DB77637D9E3E1%7D

[polichick]

1. Somebody needs to talk Nader and his followers off the ledge!

[leftofcool]

4. Didn't we try that with Kerry/Edwards?

Wasn't it Michael Moore who got down on hands and knees and begged him not to run?

[polichick]

5. I guess so - it's a good thing Obama's campaign is registering so many new voters.

[karynnj]

125. More importantly - Kerry met with him

That meeting did change the dynamics as he did not attack attack Kerry as he did Gore - in fact he had some convoluted argument that he helped Kerry because he could and would attack Bush harder than Kerry could get away with. (How's that for delusional thinking. (He had some good feeling about Kerry because of 1971). This doesn't change that a lot of his money came from the RW.

I hope that after we have a nominee - Nader is seen for what he is.

[Joe Bacon]

30. N.A.D.E.R. =

Narcisstic
Asshole
Determined to
Elect
Republicans

Fuck You Ralph

[DeadEyeDyck]

72. Might you show some respect

Mr. Nader is a seminal figure in the green movement, environmental safety, workers rights and started a long overdue socialist movement in Amerika.

We all stand on the sholders of Ralph Nader, including Dennis Kucinich, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards and Barack Obama.

History will remember Ralph Nader as the MLK of the American Socialism.

[Joe Bacon]

74. Ask the 4,000+ families of dead soldiers what they think of nader

Dont think they like that selfish snot too much!

[TechBear_Seattle]

83. So running for President makes one a selfish snot? Obama and Clinton included?

What about Bush? If that selfish snot had not run for office, we wouldn't have gone to war either.


But somehow it is all Nader's fault, right?

[Voice for Peace]

85. ot that animation is so funny, it suddenly stuck its tongue out at me and scared me

[mac56]

87. puh-leez

He's an egotistical, vengeful, opportunistic son of a bitch. Hypocritical too (fired his own employees for trying to start a union).

Whatever he once achieved in the green movement, etc., he has long since pissed away.

Now he's nothing but a spoiler and a Republican shill.

I refuse to stand on his shoulders. Fuck him.

[knight_of_the_star]

95. Respect is EARNED

Ralph did great things years and years ago, but in this day and age he is resting on rotted laurels of victories past and seeking to polish those up for the sake of his ego and vengeance, not for the sake of the people he claims to want to work for.

[Capn Sunshine]

105. wow, welcome to DU comrade

You forgot the secret code words that trigger the outpouring of communist sympathies

[matcom]

120. Hey Dick!

Let's thank Nader for the last 8 years shall we?

MLK?

:rofl:

[bean fidhleir]

76. For someone with a DK av, you sure don't seem to have an appropriate commitment to democracy

To you think Dennis would agree with you? I don't.

[Cabcere]

2. In the words of Derek Smalls:

"This is fuckin' all we need!"

[zonmoy]

3. perhaps it might finally show the democrats that being pale imitations of repukes ain't working.

[pnwmom]

14. Spoken like a Naderite. All it will do is split the progressive vote,

which always works to the advantage of the Rethugs.

When are Nader and his ilk ever going to face up to the fact that we are NOT in a parliamentary system?

[zonmoy]

17. when are the democrats going to figure out that being just like a repuke

is just as bad as being a repuke.

also I am not planning on voting for nader. just say that this site shows my plans for voting.

http://www.vote-nobody.com/

[pnwmom]

26. Only an idiot could look at the past 8 years under Bush and say that

the Dems are just like the Rethugs.

[zonmoy]

29. both are tools of the elite.

it is just that the democrats are there to fool the powerless into thinking that their needs are being listened too.

[bronxiteforever]

49. Justices Scalia and Thomas and Alito thank you for your support

[mzmolly]

67. Al Gore was not a "tool of the elite" Ralf Nader is.

He is a corporate owner and union buster who has people like you fooled into voting against the best interest of our nation and beyond.

[zonmoy]

69. What political action committees did gore take money from

and how did that change or shape his political agenda.

both parties are as far as I am concerned hopelessly corrupted by the money needed to run for office. At this point I figure that no matter which party gets in. our democracy/republic has at best 10 to 20 years before we become a fascistic puppet of the corporations. the only good news I see is that with peak energy I figure we have 50 years at most before all of civilization collapses into a dark age that includes the dying off of about 90% of the human race.

[mzmolly]

79. What Republican operatives did Nader take money from?

Democrats are taking FAR more contributions from individuals than corporate interests. Al Gore was a strong supporter of Campaign Finance Reform.

Also, Al Gore had refused PAC money:

http://www.issues2000.org/2008/Al_Gore_Government_Reform.htm#8">ISSUES 2000

Ban soft money and provide free broadcast time

Al Gore said he would:

Ban soft money

Set up a “Democracy Endowment” that would allow individuals, corporations and unions to contribute to a non-partisan trust used to help provide money for any congressional candidate who agrees to spending limits

Provide of free broadcast time
Gore says that the first bill he will support and sign as president will be a campaign-finance reform bill.

Source: The Economist, “Issues 2000” special Sep 30, 2000

Campaign finance reform will be very first bill to Congress

If you entrust me with the Presidency, I will put our democracy back in your hands, and get all the special-interest money - all of it - out of our democracy, by enacting campaign finance reform. I feel so strongly about this, I promise you that campaign finance reform will be the very first bill that Joe Lieberman and I send to Congress. Let others try to restore the old guard. We come to this convention as the change we wish to see in America.

Source: Speech to the 2000 Democratic National Convention Aug 18, 2000

$7B public campaign finance fund

Mr. Gore’s proposal would provide public financing of campaigns from a $7 billion fund to be filled with tax-deductible contributions from many of the same interests and individuals who now fuel campaigns -- but without the direct contributions to candidates. It would also outlaw so-called soft money, the unlimited contributions from corporations, unions, interest groups and wealthy donors, require greater disclosure of independent expenditures and provide free television time for candidates

Source: John Broder, New York Times Apr 16, 2000

Full disclosure for lobbyists, donations, & issue ads

Gore said, “Full disclosure of lobbying activities can help us dry up the supply of special interest money, and free TV time can help reduce the demand for it.”
Gore’s plan includes explicit disclosure rules for lobbyists and third-party groups that pay for political issue ads.

Lobbyists would be required to post monthly disclosure statements on the Internet that would detail all of their lobbying contacts, topics discussed with legislators and political contributions made.
Organizations paying for issue ads would be required to disclose the names of their financial backers, and tax-exempt groups would be required to release their donor lists. In addition, television broadcasters who air issue ads would be required by the Federal Communications Commission to provide candidates targeted by such ads with free air time in response.
Source: CNN.com AllPolitics Mar 27, 2000

George Bush wasn't even CLOSE to Al Gore, Democrats AREN'T EVEN CLOSE to Republicans on the issues. Check the continual SPLIT on votes in the house/senate if you remain confused.

[zonmoy]

94. did the party refuse pac money

or did the party use pac money to support gore. the fact that the party or any "liberal" candidate takes any corporate money at all is a bad thing for me.

also what makes you think that I plan to vote for nader. I am currently planning to write in either nobody or none of the above for president.

besides I figure the elections are rigged anyways and my vote probably won't even be counted. as for democratic candidates I did vote for Kucinich for the democratic nominee. he was one of the two that I considered remotely tolerable. the other one was gravel.

[mzmolly]

99. Moveon is a PAC, and they have their own agenda.

As for your "bad thing" thing, I'd like you to share with me what corporate money Clinton/Obama have taken that troubles you. Specifics please. I find that many "Naderites" don't think for themselves but have the "lingo" down pat.

I'm glad you supported Kucinich in spite of his taking $29,550 from PAC's in his latest Congressional run and $14,200 in his Presidential run.

[pegleg]

101. They both voted for this damned war, they both refuse to impeach,

they both refuse to reform "black box" voting, they both refuse to take on big media - they are very much alike underneath.

[mcg]

31. They are not "just like a repuke", you are just repeating Nader's lies.

An objective look at the voting records of democrats and republicans shows a big difference.

http://www.votesmart.org/

If you are not going to support democrats, just leave. This is not nobodyunderground.com.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

80. Which Party prevented the march into Iran and Syria thus far?

Which Party raised the minimum wage? Which Party passed bills to expand child health insurance coverage? Which Party expanded aid to families for college costs? Which Party passed a bill supporting stem cell research? Which Party passed a bill mandating cars get 40 percent better fuel efficiency? Which Party rejected retroactive immunity for phone companies?

And so on...

In order to participate here one is supposed to be "generally supportive of Democratic Candidates for office", you are clearly not so why are you here?

[zonmoy]

93. I tend to be supportive of candidates that are actually progressive democrats.

not those who use the democratic party to push whatever agenda their corporate masters want.

[mzmolly]

98. Which candidate is pushing a corporate master agenda? And, which candidates

meet your agenda?

[zonmoy]

121. lets see.

first off tell me how either of the two major candidates will end corporate personhood and restore the ability to control corporations to the people and the states.

as for what candidates are left that I can actually get even close to. mike gravel is about the only democrat left that I can tolerate even though he doesnt seem to have a plan to end corporate power.

also hillary seems to want to continue with the empire. something that I am certain can only lead to our own destruction.

and an article for you to peruse and too answer.



Dear George,



The fix is in; the Oligarchy has done its work well. Nothing will change, even if the Democrats sweep the 2008 election. True, there will be some superficial changes. Where you swung a naked broad sword, they will drape theirs in velvet; where you crowed, they will coo; where you swaggered, they will soft-shoe, but it will still be the same old shit. The only substantive difference is that when they screw the public, they will feel its pain; you never did.





Whether a Democrat or Republican occupies the Oval Office, the first presidential priority will be the care and feeding of the Corporatist State and the Military-Industrial Complex that protects its overseas interests. Eduardo Galeano has aptly described our nation’s capitol as “a workplace of the hired hands who sell their legislative services to the highest corporate bidder.”<1>

http://blogs.salon.com/0004024/2007/04/12.html#a1041

[mzmolly]

65. Ah yes, we should strive to compete with Nader for his 6% of the vote.

:eyes:

[scratchy]

38. BINGO! We have a winner

Go Nader Go

[FVZA_Colonel]

40. "Go Nader Go" ... Right into helping John McCain get elected!

If you really can't see some sort of a difference between Obama and Clinton or McCain you are a fool.

[mzmolly]

81. Yes,

to hell.

[Vidar]

103. Nicely put. Couldn't agree more.

[fascisthunter]

6. No He Won't... what a bunch of BS

If anything, get ready for another STOLEN election and Nader once again will be the perfect patsie.

[OKthatsIT]

THAT IS a very good point.

Good sound thinking..thank you.

[EFerrari]

75. There you go. n/t

[bluestateguy]

7. Not if we fight to keep his name off of the ballot in state after state.

In the words of Al Davis, "Just win baby".

We're talking about the future of this nation here. I'm sorry, but anything goes.

[stimbox]

9. That's mighty democratic of you. n/t

[pnwmom]

15. Nothing undemocratic about making sure Nader follows the same rules

everyone else does.

Despite what he says, he isn't entitled to submit voter petitions containing names like "Minnie Mouse."

[stimbox]

18. He wasn't talking about following rules.

He was talking about fighting to keep his name off of the ballot in state after state.

That's sounds pretty fishy to me.

[TechBear_Seattle]

11. Yeah. "DOWN WITH DISSENT! DOWN WITH DEMOCRACY!"

Stop and realize that this attitude is exactly WHY Nader gets what little support he gets.

[billbuckhead]

70. More anti-democracy from Hillary's opponent's minions

They'll sell their soul for their false god.

[BreweryYardRat]

115. "Anything goes."

Absolutely anything in this case, as far as I'm concerned.

Nader = excuse for Republican election theft, especially with electronic voting machines.

Whatever it takes...

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. And whose fault would that be?

Nader for excercising his fundamental rights as a citizen, or the Democratic Party for losing yet again because they have (yet again) alienated the people supposedly at their base in their efforts to recruit the right wing?

If the party would spend more time looking after the progressives, we would have no reason to stray.

[pnwmom]

16. If the Dems met every demand of the left wing, they'd lose votes

from the moderates.

The fact is that we don't live under a parliamentary system. All Nader does whenever he runs is take votes away from the more progressive major party candidate -- which, in effect, hands the winning margin to the Rethugs.

[TechBear_Seattle]

20. So they strive to meet every demand of the right wing instead

And still, they lose votes. How else do you explain the abject terror of Nader?

[pnwmom]

27. It's not abject terror -- it's practical realism vs. perfectionistic idealism.

Any time you split the vote of progressives, you assist the other side.

[depakid]

52. Absolutely wrong- you're buying the corporate media's framing

The objective FACTS show that on issue after issue, a substantial- sometimes overwhelming number of Americans support progressive positions. The evidence couldn't be clearer (despite the fact that MOST of the national politicians in the Democratic party choose corporate money over principles and broader self interest).

You can read the evidence here for yourself here:

The facts simply don't support the oft-repeated mantra that we are a "conservative nation."

http://wwww.alternet.org/story/54409 /

and here:

Contrary to popular belief, the majority of Americans are liberal. How long will it take politicians and the media to get that?

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/54914 /

and especially here:

The Progressive Majority: Why a Conservative America is a Myth

http://mediamatters.org/progmaj/report

[pberq]

109. Thank you, depakid!

That is very important information that DUers should keep in mind.

Does anyone else remember when Michael Moore went to the 2004 Republican Convention, and interviewed some of the regular people who were there? They consistently were for progressive values.

[zonmoy]

22. which to me says that we need to break the system.

so that we don't keep getting political fields like this.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008

[Lorien]

51. Holy Shit

I knew there was a reason why this election held so little allure for me. :-( My own "dot" is to the Southwest of Nader's (right around the "Gandhi" mark from another page).

[zonmoy]

71. while mine is in the lower left hand corner.

I have found that I consider myself more and more an anarchist.

[Captain Angry]

61. Neat chart. Thank you for posting that.

I wonder why things never seem to change after elections...

[Lorien]

48. The Dems are supposed to BE the Left Wing

Why is it that the repugs always cater to their far right wacko base, and the Dems always cater to the repugs?? Which strategy has proven to be the winning one in recent years?

[uppityperson]

21. "Blame Nadar" won't work this time. This time it will be the fault of the Dem party, and the nasty

campaigning combined with a lot of telling advertising showing people how the Dem party candidates are more interested in being nasty to each other than anything else. Advertising works. It would be nice if both C and O campaigns would get their acts together and Dems work as a whole, as a unit, rather than infighting. And no, I'm not interested in getting into "who said what" since the issue is bigger than any particular instance.

If the party would spend more time looking after progressives, we would have no reason to stray. It will be nice when we get to "then there was one" time. Nadar is a patsy this time.

[zonmoy]

24. he always was a patsy.

he was the one to take the fall for the democrats throwing the race every time he ran.

[Pogue.Mahone]

47. Amen...

uppity! this last week has probably done more harm to our chances in november than ANYTHING the right-wingers have done at any time this election!

as an aside, does anyone really think nader actually has a chance of getting any votes? he blew the election in 2000 but he barely registered in 2004.

[IndependentDem]

53. agree 100%, we can only blame ourselves this time n/t

[Triana]

10. SO. How much are the Republicans paying him to run THIS time? (n/t)

[Tippy]

43. I don't think he was paid a dime he is so full of himself..he only cares keeping republicans in the

WH....It is not nor never has been what is right for the country...it is about revenge he wanted to run as a Democrat never got the call and boy is he gonna make us pay.....

[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[2Design]

13. how did he get news time again - great candidates couldn't wake up these

dead media - mcLame is not ahead of anyone - he looks like a third place loser

[Phred42]

19. - is he on the Rove payroll?

miserable Fucking Bastard

[JerseygirlCT]

23. Great. He's such an ass. And he knows what this does in a close

race - and yet, the giant ego pushes him on.

We need to start focusing on November and doing all we can to make sure it's NOT a close race and that whichever of our candidates gets the nod, he or she is far ahead.

And Ralph can go pound sand.

[acmavm]

25. If the dems were running a good candidate instead of the two self-serving

slugs that we're stuck with, this would be a non-issue.

[99th_Monkey]

28. Like I said, Obama and Nader need to sit down and have a little talk

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5098753&mesg_id=5098753

[susankh4]

32. His VP will make him very attractive to:

1) The Latino Vote.
2) The Youth Vote.
3) The Anti-war Vote.

[bemildred]

33. No he won't. This is not 2000. nt

[still_one]

35. I agree. Looks like Zogby screwed up again on his sampling /nt

[still_one]

34. Zogby's polls have not been too good this year. I also don't buy his 6% for Nader

that is way too much. I question his polling methods

Not only do I think Nader is insignificant, but those that would support Nader would NEVER support the Democratic candidate.

[singilarpoint]

42. I think..

I think that it is just the state run media softening up the masses, for their next election theft.
After their deed is done, they will say, Our hands are clean, it must have been that Nader fella.
Also I doubt if 6% of the country even knows that Nader is even running...Let alone that 6% would even vote for him.."The story stinks all the way up to high heaven".. as my Grandmother would say...

[LiberalFighter]

58. I agree. Nader didn't get 6% last time. Not even in 2000.

[Ravachol]

91. And how do you know that?

"His" electorate is mainly composed of greens, socialists and radical leftists, along with a good number of people who are tired of the statut quo between two relatively similar parties.

If your two candidates weren't corporate shills, I for one know of many "might-be-voting-Nader" who would have voted D, this year. Example: for a man like Edwards. Or Kucinich.

Just sayin'.

[singilarpoint]

36. We must..

We must not take our eye off the ball. Yes, Nader is a thorn in the side of all that is decent. But there also paperless ballots out there. John Mccain as president would simply destroy our country. I can not make it any clearer........People have said, and I must agree: If you liked bush as president, you are gonna love mccain....

[orleans]

37. well, as someone once said

THERE YOU GO AGAIN

[fshrink]

39. Bring it on!

We need to know what America really has in its belly after 8 years of humiliation. My bet is that the guy who invented the "consumer", the best thing for capitalism since the interested loan, will not change a thing. He has become irrelevant.

[freedomnorth]

41. Remember Alex Jones yelling: Whos side are you on? n/t.

[CGrantt57]

44. Anybody who trusts anything Zogby says...

is a fucking idiot.

I don't know who they've been polling, but, their results have been horribly, consistently wrong.

[depakid]

45. That's about the long and short of it

But it won't keep DU'ers from jumping to the tune (of most any poll). For some reason, people seem to think they're sacrosanct.

[zonmoy]

73. no poll is sacrosanct

not even the vote in an election is sacrosanct. although if the exit polls and the election results don't agree that is a real good case for the election being fraudulent. although the best indication is what the international poll watching organizations say about our electoral system.

now what is it that was said by them about it.

[Taverner]

46. Let's hope Nader goes into a coma

[Freedom Train]

50. Add to that the Green Party

which I guess will also siphon off a few votes. Also, Mike Gravel is apparently now supporting one of their contenders for the nomination.

[zalinda]

54. Nader warned the dems

He said if Edwards was in the race, he'd stay out. But, the dem party big wigs wanted the historic race that we are stuck with now, and so Nader kept his promise. Oh, and don't count him out just yet. There are a lot of lefties who can't stand Obama or Clinton, they have been made promises for years, decades, and the dem party has shit on them every time. These lefties are the ones who have held their noses and even worked for candidates that didn't even come close to their ideals. This time it just may be that they have had enough, enough of being taken for granted, enough of promises that aren't kept, enough of the wait until the next election.

Nothing will change for the vast majority of people here in the US, absolutely nothing. You can talk about the Supreme Court, or whatever, but the plain simple truth is that it doesn't touch the poor. The poor are hassled daily, the poor get screwed over by just about everyone, the poor are always in survival mode. These people who take part in the primaries and especially caucuses are not poor, so they pick someone they think will keep them comfortable. They aren't looking at what's best for this country, but which popular candidate they want to support. It is just like high school football here with a grudge match between competing schools, it's a game to you people. To the poor, it's our lives and you've made sure that we won't rise above our stations or get any relief.

zalinda

[Auggie]

55. 1000 voters? Poll a 100,000 -- then I'll worry.

[Cal Carpenter]

56. One thing I don't understand

is there seems to be an assumption that Nader voters would vote for the Democratic candidate if Nader weren't on the ballot.

I know some nonvoters and 3rd party voters, and voting for a Dem just isn't something they would do. We've argued about it a lot.

[jzodda]

57. Why can't nader just move away...Like to the North Pole

or put him on a lunar orbit expedition

[LiberalFighter]

59. Margin of error 3.2%!!! That puts Nader at 2.8%. Even that is too high.

[singilarpoint]

62. 2004 RESULTS

According to a NYT article I have just read, Nader gained 0.38% of the vote in 2004.

[LiberalFighter]

110. That's about right. Nader made a real impact in 2004.

[robcon]

123. Margin of error 3.2%!!! That puts Nader at 9.2%. Even that is too low!

You see, the margin of error goes both up and down.

Actually, since the poll is Zogby, the margin of error is 100%. He sets up poll results to get headlines for himself - not to accurately predict the results. (No one will remember this poll in November, when Nader gets less than 1%, IMO.)

[onehandle]

60. Where will he spend the last weeks of the election to elect McCain?

In 2000 it was Florida. My money is on Ohio considering how it went in 2004.

Fuck you, Ralph.

[bobthedrummer]

63. "Ralph Nader-Apoplexy Season All Over Again" by Tom Gallagher (3-6-2008)

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/06/7517/

Ralph Nader isn't responsible for the coup that installed the Decider.

[McCamy Taylor]

64. Articles like this are written to encourage GOP contributions to Nader.

[No Blood for Hubris]

68. You wish, Ralphie. Washed all that blood on your hands off yet? No?

I thought not.

600K dead, dude.

Your doing, Bush = Gore guy.

[Politicalboi]

77. Too bad

He can't get the title of the Spoiler Party. Besides no one is talking about him. And if the media would talk more about how things would have been different if we were under a Gore administration maybe more people would wake up and see him for what he is a spoiler. But I still think FL was stolen in 2000 and Nadar didn't really make a big difference. And who does these polls. I don't think McCain stands a chance against either Dem in this race. What both Dem's should do is hit home to these people that they better be ready to sacrifice their children if McCain gets the nod. 100 year war and his top ten hit Bomb Bomb Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran. Winter Soldier should get more exposure and more people would see what is really going on in Iraq.

[applegrove]

78. He seems to just not care anymore. All that matters is Nader's own agenda and

who cares if we end up with the same Repukes in power cause they are the same as the Dems to him. Asshole!

[pokercat999]

82. Oh boo hoo, if ya can't beat Nader you don't deserve to

be preznut anyway.

[robcon]

84. I think we can ignore the poll. It's Zogby, so it's corrupt.

n/t

[ryanmuegge]

86. It's going to be close.

[Tom Joad]

88. that means that Obama needs to convince potential Nader voters that w

he really will end the US occupation of Iraq once and for all (maybe he can actually promise to end the Occupation by the end of his first year in office, rather than hedging on even promising a complete withdrawal even by the year 2013)

in other words, democracy is a wonderful thing, and i am glad that obama will get some competition from the left. It is not enough to be saner than John McCain. (damn, ain't your senile aunt saner than John McCain?)

[Brazenly Liberal]

89. I can think of one really good reason not to vote for Ralph

He'd make a lousy President.

His work for consumers and for the environment is something to be remembered, respected, and emulated. However, we do not honor ourselves, each other, or Nader himself if we Peter Principle his ass into the White House.

[AlphaCentauri]

97. bah! don't blame nader n/.t

[LulaMay]

90. John Zogby has no credibility left after his 'predictions' of HRC's demise. But Nader is a jerk.

and utterly, completely self absorbed.

[krkaufman]

92. Nader is about the least of the Democratic Party's problems

We're creating plenty of our own without having to worry about Nader. He was a non-entity in 2004, and should have been again.

[mac56]

96. Great.

Just goddamn great.

Say hello to President McCain.

Thanks a hell of a lot, Ralphie.

:puke:

[Better Believe It]

102. Clinton + Obama = Spoilers!

So how many votes do you think Hillary Clinton will "steal" from Ralph Nader if she's the nominee?

I mean .... Nader is entitled to most of Clinton's "anti-war" votes since he opposed the war from day one while Clinton supports it .... isn't that right?

:)

And if Clinton or Obama aren't on the ballot and running Nader would get tens of millions of votes and could even get elected running against McCain! Clinton and Obama .... damn spoilers!

Perhaps Nader can raise big corporate bucks to keep the Democratic Party candidate off election ballots with lawsuit after lawsuit. After all, that's what Kerry did to Nader in 2004! What goes around comes around. If those millions of bucks had been spent to fight pro-war Bush rather than anti-war Nader I bet Kerry would have won the 2004 election!

[mac56]

108. Don't. Even. Go. There.

Don't waste a moment of your precious time or mine, trying to in any way defend that sleazy weasel fucker Nader to me.

He made it close enough for the Repubs to steal the election. And he did so, knowing exactly what he was doing, and in full agreement with it.

If I didn't hate him so much I'd feel kind of sorry for him. All the great things he did for consumers, the environment, working people...instead he enabled the Bush administration to decimate all the good his name was once associated with. And he did it out of sheer egotism and megalomania.

So don't waste any more of your time or mine.

PS: Ralph Nader. Smart enough to get unsafe cars off the road - too stupid to figure out why all his donors are Republicans.

[Better Believe It]

112. What About Democratic Party Enablers?

Would you care to name any of the Democratic Party leaders in Congress who either voted for much of George Bush's legislative agenda and/or failed (that's an understatement) to stop Bush from implementing his agenda?

I and most others here have a long, long list of of those legislative betrayals of the people. Let's name names.

I'll start with one.

Hillary Clinton.

It seems these alleged "leaders" like Clinton and Pelosi can't accomplish much when they are not in charge and accomplish even less when they are in charge of Congress!

It seems these endless attacks on Nader are simply an attempt to divert attention away from those Democratic Party enablers.

If Hillary steals the nomination it's likely that Nader will gain significant support among Democrats and Independents.

If that happens, blame Hillary and Democratic Party officials for giving the election to McCain, not Nader.

I certainly think Hillary would rather see her "experienced" pal McCain win the election over Obama should he be selected at the convention. That's the message a lot of people got from one of her tv commercials when she spoke highly of McCain and knocked Obama for his "inexperience".

Ya. She experienced all right. At all the wrong things!

Oh .... most of Naders contributors are/were Republicans? I think most were either independents or Democrats, some were Republicans just like some of Kerry's contributors were Republicans. Have you forgotten the Republicans for Kerry campaign committee?

[mac56]

119. Now, see, there you're doing it.

Wasting your time and mine.

[slackmaster]

100. The fix is in

:argh:

[ramapo]

104. What moron would vote for Nader?

It seems every four years Nader crawls out of the woodwork to run for President. Like he as a chance to do anything but fuck things up. Now what does he do in the interim? Nothing as far as I can see.

[Better Believe It]

114. Michael Moore?

Michael Moore? He's not a moron in my book and Moore was just one of many prominent liberals, progressives and Democrats who campaigned for and voted for Nader in the election he allegedly stole from Gore.

I still can't understand why Gore was entitled to many, most or all of the votes that Nader got in 2000. Could someone explain this mystery to me.

I believe that ALL candidates who run for office, including Ralph Nader, are entitled to receive ALL of the votes that voters cast for them. Guess I must just be wrong on that.

Was Gore also entitled to the 40,000 votes cast for socialists and other radical presidential candidates who were on the Florida ballot.

And how about the 250,000 registered Democrats in Florida who voted for Bush in the 2000 election. Perhaps they would have voted for Gore in 2000 if the Democratic Party would have waged an effective campaign in Florida or would have actually fought against Bush's election theft in 2000.

When the organized labor movement proposed organizing massive demonstrations of tens of thousands of working people against the election theft in Florida why did the Democratic Party officialdom urge restraint? Lots of people wanted to hit the streets and leading Democrats said: "Oh no .... can't do that .... Republicans will get mad at us!"

Come to think of it, when has the Democratic Party NC or top leaders of that party such as the Clintons or Pelosi ever supported any anti-war demonstrations or other street protests against the Bush governments policies?

I know the answer that question and so does everyone else here on DU.

The answer is NEVER! Never have and never will.

[Supersedeas]

106. just the diversion of votes that Diebold (or successors) were looking for

[depakid]

116. There'll be Libertarians and that bizarre "Constitutional party," too

So you can't blame Nader for that, either.

[haymakeragain]

107. It basically came down to this: impeachment off the table, Nader on the table

Pelosi should have upheld the constitution instead of using Bush Inc.'s crimes to win more elections for Dem machine candidates down the road. Sorry folks, Nader is on the table because the Dems didn't stand up to Bush, they bent over instead.

[HuffleClaw]

111. oooookay

i rather doubt that

[Xithras]

113. To be expected, I think.

When you have an election without a real liberal on the ticket, it's somewhat normal for the hardcore liberals to look elsewhere.

What are the choices?

A Republican
A DLC (aka Republican Lite)
A DLC-Lite
A 3rd party Liberal.

The Democratic Party systematically worked to exclude real liberals from this election. Whining about the liberals going elsewhere at this point is a bit disingenuous. I won't vote for Nader because I personally don't like the guy, but I know several people who are considering it and generally do agree that principles have to come before party.

I don't vote for Democrats because I'm a Democrat. I vote for Democrats because I'm a progressive and this party typically supports MY positions (not the other way around) often enough that I offer its membership my vote. Should the party abandon its populist platform entirely (it has been waning badly for the past decade or so), I'll go elsewhere too. We're not there yet.

[ecstatic]

117. WTF??? Now THAT'S what you call a "latte liberal"

After 8 years of bush, I find the number of Nader supporters to be astonishingly high.

Who are these idiots?

I can see the number of Nader supporters skyrocketing once the nominee is chosen, but not before....???

[burrowowl]

118. EES will sway the election more than Nader

Here in New Mexico, they have been hired to do the voter registration list. I sent in my registration to change from Green to Democrate in September for the Feb elections. It got lose, sent in another 12 weeks ago, no response yet, will call clerk to see what is up. A Friend who lives on my street, has voted in every election, including local school elections, etc., in which turnout is very low, SINCE 1956! and her name was not on the list to vote in the Feb. NM Presidential Primary!!!!! She has voted from the same address and in every fucking election since 1956!

[progpen]

122. This discussion is not surprising, but it is funny.

I don't know who I'll vote for in November, but when I read "progressives" acting more like repugs than liberals, it makes me wonder what the hell is going on in the Democratic Party these days.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

124. Ya know, with the shit-slinging fest that the campaign is turning into

I wouldn't be surprised if a certain percentage of people vote for Nader just out of disgust with the way the two contenders are conducting themselves.

The candidates had better clean up their act and stop taking the bait from the MSM if they don't want to turn off a significant part of the electorate.