NBC reports Florida will not hold second primary

[JMDEM]

Source: MSNBC

BREAKING NEWS: Florida Democratic Party says it will not hold second primary

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

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No story yet -- just a "breaking news" banner

[Mojorabbit]

1. Dammit!

This pisses me off to no end.

[1776Forever]

2. I say 50 / 50 split like Dodd has proposed! I live in Florida - Let's just get this over with!

The Parties in Florida screwed this up! The candidates and delegates should not be punished. Let's just get this over with and seat the delegates. We were all told (I am a member of our local Democratic Party) this election was not going to count and a lot of people who did not have a home to vote on the tax bill that was on the ballot did not vote. Enough!

[Captain Hilts]

4. The R's screwed it up. Clinton beat Obama solidly - no 50/50. nt

[catgirl]

7. It would have been a closer race if it wasn't moved up against the rules

It was not a legitimate primary- period. Either split it 50/50 or don't count it
at all. Fair is fair. The party knew the risk they were taking. They were warned.

[Zhade]

45. Yeah, and if Clinton hadn't campaigned there the night before.

Fundraisers? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[demo dutch]

55. if only you were telling the truth!!!! Both Obama & Clinton were fundraising in FL which they were

allowed under party rules.

[lark]

54. What a great talking point!

Let's disenfranchise all the voters from FL just because their leaders and the national party all happen to be total idiots. Oh yeah, that will just warm the cockles of all the local dems, right? Wrong!! Maybe you are OK with this, but I am never ever in favor of not counting votes and can't understand how any Dem could support this. It's just amazing how Obama supporters are taking the positions of Bushco and willing to support highjacking the vote for their own aims. Why go with Chris Dodd's suggestions, is he impartial - NO Way. Why not split the vote the way the voters in the state voted - what in the world is wrong with that? I voted for Edwards, I do not want my vote to count for Obama or I would have voted for him. Hundreds of thousands of people voted, do you want them to stay home on general election day? I'm a yellow dog activist Dem and could never bring myself to vote for "all war all the time", but I also will not support a party that disenfranchises voters - period the end. It's a values thing. I usually contribute a fair amount of money during these cycles to both the Dem candidate, dem party, and any progressive advertising campaign that catches my fancy. I will not contriubute one red dime if my vote isn't counted, will not work for the party or nominee. Multiply me times thousands and what in the world has the Dem party gained by their intransiegence? If the Dem party doesn't hold votes sacrosanct, what other values are they willing to desert when it fits their fancy. You are either for right or for wrong.:nuke:

[1776Forever]

9. Both parties have to take some of the responsibility. Here is a link for the entire story.......

http://www.fladems.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/#q11

The Rules say you had to try to stop the primary move, but Democrats voted for the law. What gives?

Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority’s throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.

[DaLittle Kitty]

12. The BLAME Rests SQUARELY On FDP Chair Karen Thurman's Shoulders... Watch Her Indict Herself HERE!

Run time: 03:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORQZ6iZw1DU

Thurman MUST BE IMPEACHED for this DEBACLE!!!!!!!

[Divine Discontent]

21. Blame the idiot (yes idiot) Thurman

she should have got her head out of her butt, and realized the decision would be a buffoon move, worked at pushing the calendar date up in future elections, and not disobeyed the national party because she believes we're so utterly important. Nelson then, imho, got his feet muddied up in this disaster and made me not like him. Our ENTIRE FL gov't from the annoying fake Governor to the Senators to the House Reps who are strumming Clinton's tune, to the state house morons that worked with the rethugs on this, are a joke.

Surprisingly, they got this follow-up situation right so far - there shouldn't be a redo, but the delegates shouldn't count unless they split them.

[humbled_opinion]

13. Oh don't you think it would have been a wee bit

closer if OBAMA HAD ACTUALLY CAMPAIGNED THERE???? Get off the Hillary talking points.

[Captain Hilts]

16. He ran ads. The others didn't. nt

[Qutzupalotl]

17. ...in adjacent states.

It's not like they're going to build a wall along the state line to block transmissions.

[superkia]

44. Do you see this as an issue about the voters being counted...

or about a candidate getting an advantage? I am always curious why allot of Clinton supporters could care less about the voters being disenfranchised. Also, saying that someone ran ads doesn't mean that both candidates were able to campaign so that ALL of the voters would have an opportunity to choose who they thought was best for their childrens future. I wish Clinton and Obama supporters both, would stop and think about how ignorant they look when they choose (A) candidate over the American people...pathetic!

This just shows even more how Americans are becoming very selfish and helping the elite destroy our country. Together we stand, divided we fall. Right now the divide and conquer agenda is working perfectly. The only way it works is if people like yourself cant think on your own and you let yourself be lead with blinders on. Good thing is, FEMA has nice camps where they can herd people like you.


If they campaigned, maybe Clinton could have won 90/10 and had more of a lead. Let them campaign, show the voters who they are and let the voters decide. Its like playing four square in elementary school and when the bully is about to lose, he wants to change the rules so he can stay in the game longer. Get a grip, Clinton is doing the usual type of campaign with her throwing the sink nonsense and the people are sick of being herded and prodded. We already have our own prods, there called tasers so all we need now is our brand burnt into us...implanted chip or RFID national I.D. could work.

[Bumblebee]

23. Only Obama talking points are accepted then?

[spotbird]

15. Florida and Michigan were

the only state where Democratic turnout was lower than Republican.

Why do you think that was? Do you think it has any relation to the fact that the voters knew the vote didn't matter?

[1monster]

33. Spin like a top... Florida turn out was record high. Democrats as well as Republicans.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18514724

Record Voter Turnout in Florida

Voting was brisk throughout the day. Even before primary day, more than 1 million Florida residents, or about 10 percent of all those eligible, participated through absentee ballots or early voting. (Florida is one of several states to allow early voting at select polling stations.)

In the last Florida GOP contest in 2000, 700,000 Republicans voted. This year, about 1.9 million did. Democratic turnout was also up dramatically from 2000 and 2004, with at least 1.7 million voting on that side.

While the close presidential race may have helped turnout, a local proposition on property taxes also fueled voter traffic.

[spotbird]

49. Florida and Michigan were the only

states where Democratic turnout was lower than Republican, as your post demonstrates.

Why were those the only states with lower Democratic than Republican turnout? Because the officials, and the candidates said the election would not count.

What would you people do if you had to confine your arguments to the truth?

[1monster]

53. Your premise is worthless because you are not taking into consideration the fact that

Flroida has more Republican (especially likely) voters than Florida has Democratic (especially likely) voters.

I know that it didn't used to be that way. I remember when Republican voters were shut out of elections because the office holder was determined in the primaries...there were no Republican opponents.

But in the last twenty years, it has been the exact opposite. Democratic voters are often shut out of elections because the office holders were determined in the primaries...there were no Democratic opponents.

[durrrty libby]

18. Exactly. 50/50 my ass.These people are no democrats,just buffoons

There was a huge turnout. Everyone I know voted

[Divine Discontent]

40. There was no campaign in FL because of the flub by our state party...

as a Floridian I say it means crap that Clinton won a pointless vote that few voters attended. If it were going to count, the outcome would have been a near 50/50 split, so either split the delegates and move on, or don't seat them. It's so ridiculous our state couldn't follow the rules set up that 48 other states and Guam, DC & Puerto Rico were able to abide by.

[rsmith6621]

5. I say your state party broke the rules so....

....deal with it.....Thank people like Sen Bill Nelson.

[kstewart33]

3. Good news for Obama. nt

[kennetha]

6. This means a donnybrook at the Convention

Neither the Clinton campaign nor the Florida Democrats will at all concede to a 50-50 split. They will now petition the Credentials Committee to seat Florida as voted in January. Imagine if MIchigan revotes and Hillary wins it and wins Pennsylvania and NC and Indiana and pulls within, say, 30 delegates of Obama. Fl as voted could make the difference. There will be a HUGE fight.


We'd better hope one of these campaigns collapses soon.

[politmuse1]

8. So Florida votes are trashed AGAIN. By Democrats now.

I was one of the few people in 2000 who marched in the streets demanding that they count the votes. To this day I can't get over Florida 2000. What right will we ever have as Democrats to hold our heads high and say that our president was stolen by the Supereme Court if our party allows the legitimate votes of Florida voters to be treated with the same disdain as that shown by Kathrine Harris and the Supreme Injustices?

Shame, shame, shame.

[rosesaylavee]

10. You need to take that up with your state DEM leadership.

They are the ones who betrayed you. They are the ones who led you down this path.

Personally, I would like to see the delegates seated and have it be 50/50 to reduce the bickering.

[humbled_opinion]

14. I say they should hold a caucus

Obama will beat Hillary in a landslide... Hillary is the only one that doesn't realize it. Stop tearing the party apart for your vicious ego and vanity miss thing....Do the right thing and bail out so that Obama can rightfully run and beat McCain...


Oh by the way Hill all your racists flap, is just gonna make Obama stronger.

[Bumblebee]

24. Sure you would since it would benefit Obama. But you know what? I don't care any more.

I am resigned to have Obama as our nominee and then McCain as the pres. I am tired of it all, so be it. I think Hillary should quit, get out of the way -- and so will many of us but I don't think many Obama people really care about what we do. They think they can do it all by themselves without us because otherwise they probably would have shown more respect for the candidate whom at least 50% of Democrats support. Too bad they do not do the GE through caucuses, isn't it? Then Obama would be a shoe-in!

PS Don't bother to reply. I am truly unplugging from the discussions here or anywhere else. No use. I won't even be back in November to say "I told you so."

And my apologies to #10. It was supposed to be a reply to #14.

[rosesaylavee]

26. Well, #10 has a reply.

Too bad you lack the backbone for Democracy. Too bad you have chosen to UNPLUG because your candidate just may not win. Too bad your thinking is so fucking rigid you can't see that this is not a pissing contest. The future of the country is hanging in the balance here.

Take your fucking marbles and go home, coward.

When the R candidate wins because people such as you who know ALL THATS BEST, refuse to vote for the DEM nominee in November, and the Supreme Court becomes unretrievably republican during the next four years, we will know just who to thank.

[BearSquirrel2]

35. The reason Hillary is against Caucuses ...

The reason the Hillary camp is against caucuses is because Dittoheads are less likely to attend caucuses.

[PaddyBlueEyes]

42. Wrong

The reason Hillary is against caucuses, is they discriminate against a whole segment of the Democratic Party. What about cops, firefighters, nurses, store clerks etc. Anyone who does shift work for a living and doesnt work a 9 to 5 job, that includes alot of Union folks. You remember them dont you? The people who built the Democratic Party.

[BearSquirrel2]

43. As I recall ...

As I recall, the Clinton people put the Caucus in place in Nevada. No, this is just a convenient position for her.

I too would prefer to see primaries, but I don't think for a second that Hillary is taking any position that does not favor her doomed candidacy above all other things.

So yeah, she's against caucuses because it's harder for the dittoheads to vote and because Florida is unlikely to do another primary and she doesn't want her referendum lead to disappear in an actual contested election.

[1monster]

34. Cacaroche! We, the voters have been betrayed by the whole of the Democratic

Party, both the state and the national parties.

We are simply pawns in this little power struggle.

But the thing that really infuriates me is that Bill Nelson and the other super delegates will be seated at the convention and WE the legitimate voters who did nothing wrong will have our votes scorned.

If Dean wanted to make a point, it should have been the other way around, with the super delegates refused convention credentials and the elected delegates seated.

But nooooo. That's too logical.

[dysfunctional press]

11. which "legitimate" votes are you referring to?

surely not the primary- voters were told in advance that the primary votes in the race for democratic nominee wouldn't count, so there's NO WAY that those votes that were cast can be considered "legitimate". sorry. try living in a non-third-world-banana-republic state next time.

[politmuse1]

19. Not know?!

Political junkies may have known. The elderly grandma who went to the trouble of getting a ride to cast a vote assumed it was for real. You can't play with people's lives and votes that way.

And you call a 50-50 plan "compromise"? Is there any sanity left in this world? Or is it simply that people don't know what 50-50 means? Then why seat them at all? 50-50 means that no one gains or loses anything. Nothing changes. Nada. Zip. Is that a "compromise"? This is not about giving convention badges to a few delegates. It's about the candidates, not whether the individual delegate will sit in the hallway or take a seat inside. This has nothing to do with Clinton or Obama. This is logic gone mad!

[dysfunctional press]

25. that's why it pays to be an educated voter...

and a good example why an election held in a state without campaigns by the candidates is an illegitimate one. people are more likely to just vote for the only candidate they have any familiarity or name recognition with.

as to calling the 50-50 plan a compromise- you must have replied to the wrong post, because i said nothing of the sort. i don't believe that the rules should be changed after the fact- the delegates/super-delegates from florida should DEFINITELY NOT be seated at the convention.

[politmuse1]

29. If the election was "illegitimate," it shouldn't have been held

Sure it's nice to be an informed voter, but we won't change the world and human nature. We have to deal with reality.

If the election was not legitimate, as you say, it should not have been held. I don't care who should have called it off, but what kind of insanity is it in a democracy to allow a primary to go on, for people to go to the trouble of voting, for volunteers to kill themselves to get the vote out, for officials to count it, and then for the party to say "Ooops. Here's the trash can."

You also say it wasn't a fair election because voters only voted for names they were familiar with. Then all primaries were illegitimate because the media made sure that only Clinton and Obama's name were recognizable. How many voters would be able to tell Biden or Dodd from an oak tree? Let's cancel all those primaries then.

As for seating delegates, personally I'd have preferred a revote simply because of the controversy. But as long as that's not possible, I don't see how anyone can say that the voice of the people of one of the largest states in the country should not count.

And sorry about the 50-50 comment. I know you didn't say it. I lumped it all together.

[dysfunctional press]

38. you're right about that-it probably shouldn't have been held...

as it was a complete waste of time. and- i'd imagine that there were other issues/races on the ballot as well- like the property tax issue that brought such huge numbers of people to the polls.

[KingFlorez]

20. Something has got to be done

Otherwise, this is going to cause whoever the nominee is to lose the state of Florida in the general. Yes, I know that the rules were broken, but it was the fault of the GOP legislature because they moved up the date. I think stripping the state of all it's delegates was a huge mistake. Had they stripped them of half, this situation wouldn't be so bad, but now Florida has absolutely no say in this process. It's undemocratic.

[Divine Discontent]

22. it's undemocratic

and we have Thurman and the other party heads in Tallahassee to blame for their failure in realizing this was going to occur. I think so LITTLE of this state due to their repeated screwups on democracy issues.

[dysfunctional press]

39. it's undemocratic to play favorites with MI and FL...

by letting them flout the rules that 48 other states, guam, puerto rico and d.c. all were able to abide by.

[1776Forever]

27. If anyone cares here are the offical totals -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5126134&mesg_id=5126518

[zanne]

28. I think we're ignoring the basic problem here.

If Michigan holds its election again, what happens in four more years when several states try to outdo each other in the bid for first-in-the-nation status? I haven't seen anyone on DU talk about this basic problem. All we're looking at is how affects our candidate of choice.

So what happens in four years? If there are no consequences this time, the states will be slugging it out next time, with our primaries possibly being held in 2011 to provide for a first in the nation primary.

ANY IDEAS OUT THERE ABOUT THIS?

[politmuse1]

30. NH was in violation of the rule, too

No, I have no idea how to stop the front-loading of primaries. It's insane, and it leads to a situation where a nominee can be decided at the beginning of the year (alas, not this time!), some seven months before the convention. That's an eternity. The party should not allow such madness.

But:

1. If I understand correctly, New Hampshire was in violation of the same rule when it moved up its primary, and it wasn't punished the same way. That means Florida and Michigan are discriminated against.

2. You stop the primary somehow. Don't ask me how. I'm no party leader or state official. But you can't actually hold a real primary and then throw away the votes.

[zanne]

32. According to the NH election laws, NH has to be first in the nation.

I'm not saying it's right, but we can't go changing the rules because we don't like what's happening. We have to do it the right way, but nobody seems to want to talk about a solution. I don't have the answer, either, but we have to start a dialog now so we won't be in the same boat in four years.

If you've lived in NH for a long time like I have, the possibility of letting another state be first sounds appealing. It can be a real pain in the butt.(The phone calls start in April)and everybody is very happy when it's over.

[1monster]

36. Tough on New Hampshire! What if every state in the Union passed a law that

said their state had to have the first primary?

New Hampshire's laws are superior to every other state's laws?

I don't think so.

[zanne]

47. No, NH's laws aren't superior to anyone else's...

It's just the way things have been set up for many, many years now. If you want to change that, this is the time to start changing it for the year 2012. If you just want to complain about Howard Dean and the Florida vote, you won't care about changing the rules the right way. In other words, if you're truly serious about changing the Primary system, help to work on it now so that in four years time we'll have a better system. Otherwise, you're just screaming into the wind.

[Capn Sunshine]

46. You don't understand correctly

the rules are specific; NH chooses when and is first.

But no one read the rules, they just spew memes from various campaigns

[BearSquirrel2]

37. What chairman Dean wants ...

Howard Dean is on record for rotating primaries. I don't think the old guard (Clintonites) are for this because frankly, its a 50 state strategy and it requires more work. Think, instead of cozying up to the local in a few states to get your early bounce, your going to have to make new alliances every four year.

I think it's time for the early state monopoly to end. I though it was time THIS YEAR. But the old guard would not let that happen. So them's the rules and we have to live with them. There was no National Florida Democratic nominating primary. There was just a referendum at the state level. Same thing goes for Michigan. Until Florida and Michigan legitimately hold a nomination process under DNC rules, there are no Michigan and Florida delegates.

BTW, you can bet your ass that had Obama left his name on the ballot and WON ... Hillary would be suing to have the state disqualified. And in such a case where the DNC are breaking their own rules, she would have a case. Hillary is NOT suing now because she hasn't a leg to stand on. Dean is following the rules that he disagrees with so this doesn't end up in court.

[zanne]

50. I've read your responses, but still, nobody wants to solve the problem. nt

Let's try to set our sights on the future, OK? If we don't, it'll just happen again. Do you want that? We have to come up with solutions to this problem before the next presidential primaries. It seems that nobody wants to discuss that, but it's the central theme in all of this.

[Speciesamused]

31. Alright!!!They have to pay for their mistake. Maybe someday

people will learn about trying to be
bad ass. A in the Dark Ages Floridian.

[seafan]

41. Florida Dems abandon mail-in vote plan

Florida Dems abandon mail-in vote plan

By BRENDAN FARRINGTON, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 51 minutes ago
March 17, 2008

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Facing strong opposition, Florida Democrats on Monday abandoned plans to hold a do-over presidential primary with a mail-in vote and threw the delegate dispute into the lap of the national party.
While the decision by Florida Democrats left the state's 210 delegates in limbo, Democrats in Michigan moved closer to holding another contest on June 3. Legislative leaders reviewed a measure Monday that would set up a privately funded, state-administered do-over primary, The Associated Press learned.

In Florida, a frustrated Democratic Party chairwoman Karen L. Thurman sent a letter announcing the decision.

"A party-run primary or caucus has been ruled out, and it's simply not possible for the state to hold another election, even if the party were to pay for it," Thurman said. "... This doesn't mean that Democrats are giving up on Florida voters. It means that a solution will have to come from the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee, which is scheduled to meet again in April."

Members of Florida's congressional delegation unanimously opposed the plan, and Barack Obama expressed concern about the security of a mail-in vote organized so quickly. Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign expressed disappointment with Florida's decision.

.....

Florida Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson, who backs Clinton, has suggested one alternative — seating all Florida delegates already chosen but only giving them half a vote each. Nelson discussed this idea with Clinton and Obama on the Senate floor last week. Based on the Jan. 29 results, Clinton would have won 105, Obama 67 and John Edwards 13. Instead they would get half those delegate votes.

.....

Florida Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz said the congressional delegation is talking with the DNC and both campaigns to find another solution to seating Florida's delegates, including an idea that would take into account the January vote among other factors.

Of course you are, Debbie. It's what you've demanded from the beginning, to seat these illegitimate delegates for "your girl".



And this:

On Monday in Atlanta, federal appeals judges skeptically questioned a lawyer who argued that the national party's decision to strip Florida of its 210 convention delegates was unconstitutional.

Michael Steinberg, a lawyer for Victor DiMaio, a Democratic Party activist from Tampa, said Florida's Democratic voters are being disenfranchised by not being permitted to have their say in choosing their party's nominee. The action violates DiMaio's constitutional right to equal protection, he argued.

"The citizens of the state of Florida are not being treated equally," Steinberg told the judges.

But Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the Democratic National Committee, said the party has the right to set its own the rules and not seat delegates who refuse to follow them.

There was no indication when the court would rule.

Fury doesn't describe this any more.

[mtnester]

48. SCOTUS will get involved

as it did before when it was none of their business..and I do not think ANY of us, no matter who we support, will like that much.

[Heywood J]

51. Well, now it's not so easy to blame Dean and the DNC.

If Florida doesn't want to hold a primary by the rules, we can't make them. But this shouldn't be surprising that the delegates won't be seated now. This time, it was the state's own party who decided that Florida voters don't count. Take it out on them.

[Wabbajack_]

52. National IRV primary

[demo dutch]

56. How ironic, Dems fought to count FL votes in 2000, and now they refuse to count FL

Jeb Bush: Florida Primary Fight "Ironic Beyond Belief" in light of the "2000 Count every Vote!"
Snip
Jeb Bush could barely contain his amusement at the Democrat Party’s Florida and Michigan delegate dilemma in its tightly contested presidential race, saying it’s “ironic beyond belief” that the party which accused him and other Republicans of suppressing the vote in the 2000 Florida presidential election re-count now “got themselves in a hole” of “their own doing.”

“My thoughts are filled with irony that every vote should count,” Bush said with a broad smile. “I mean this brings back memories of hyperbole and anger, mock anger …. It was a political circus for several years running, people trying to stoke the anger of a group of voters.”

http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/8546.article

The DNC is soon becoming the laughing stock if they don't pull their heads out of their asses and resolve this nonsense!