Times poll: Dems want primary results to count

[AlGore-08.com]

Source: St. Petersburg Times

Howard Dean and Barack Obama may insist Florida’s Democratic presidential primary was meaningless, but a new poll shows Florida Democrats aren’t buying it, and one in four may not back their party's nominee in November if Florida winds up with no voice in the nomination.

Not only do Florida Democrats say that the Democratic presidential contenders’ boycott of their primary had little effect, but an overwhelming plurality want the officially meaningless results to count, a new St. Petersburg Times/Bay News 9 poll finds.

A record 1.75-million Florida Democrats voted in the Jan. 29 primary, which Hillary Rodham Clinton won by 17 percentage points, but as punishment for holding the primary earlier than allowed by the national party, no delegates were at stake. Now, as a nomination stalemate looms, the candidates and state and national party leaders are struggling to figure out how and if America’s biggest swing state can have a voice in the Democratic nomination.

(snip)

More than three out of four Florida Democrats say it’s “very important” that Florida’s delegates count toward the nomination, and one in four said they would be less likely to support the ultimate Democratic nominee if Florida’s delegates don’t count.

(more... )

Read more: http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2008/03/by-adam-c-smith.html

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Have to do the usual primary season disclaimer - - I have no preference between Obama and Clinton. I will back whoever wins the nomination.

[David Dunham]

1. Howard Dean is a DUNCE on this issue.

[madfloridian]

8. No, actually he is the one with integrity.

Hillary said she did not think the states would count until she needed them. Then she wanted them.

[VeraAgnes]

11. Howard Dean blinked on this one.

I love and admire Dean but I have to take the hit on this one, he should let Florida vote early....The goal is always let the people vote. A financial fine would of been adequate. This is a greek tragedy.

[madfloridian]

12. Bull hockey.

The rules committee followed the rules, and an arrogant state decided they were superior.

[pajjr]

17. well

it's not the arogance of the voters. I know obama people don't want this to count because it's a crucial vote and they will lose

[madfloridian]

19. The voters have a responsibility to kick out leaders like this.

And do not refer to me as Obama people. I do support him, but that is not who I am.

I have hours and hours reseaching this FL fiasco, so do not talk down to me on this issue.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1906

[Spiffarino]

23. Obama people by and large want it to be a fair primary

All the Democratic candidates pledged that they would abide by the rules. Clinton is the only one backtracking on this.

Dean did exactly what he had to do. The rules were agreed upon, Florida's Democratic Party - along with Republicans in state government - changed the primary date against the very rules they pledged to uphold. The voters are not responsible for this stupid act, they are the victims. They should go after the idiots who decided to break the rules.

If Dean were to allow the delegates to count, the Democratic National Committee would cease to be relevant and anarchy would ensue. It's hard enough to herd these cats when they follow the rules...imagine what would happen if suddenly the rules didn't matter.

If Florida Dems want to seat their delegates in the normal way they need to work within the rules and find a compromise that the state and national parties can handle along with the remaining candidates. This is something they cannot seem to do, and this is why Florida continues to be the poster child for electoral dysfunction. Michigan appears to be getting its act together while Florida behaves like a three-headed beast at war with itself.

[VeraAgnes]

18. So what?

Arrogance is not a reason to deny registered voters the privilege of voting. Rules are guidelines, not laws. It was a terrible choice to not accept the arrogance of a state to have their citizens vote when, they wanted them to vote. So what, no one dies...they just vote.

One could view the advance vote date as a misdemeanor not a 1st degree felony. Issue a fine,and all are happy. We want people to vote for who is going to lead the country...that is the priority....not a fine-print rule.

Dean's uphold the fine print rule is abusive.

[madfloridian]

20. So what? Nothing matters anymore. Right? Just as long as Hillary wins.

That is what all of this has been about from the start.

They will take the party down with them to win.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1906

[VeraAgnes]

21. I'm going back to before Florida actually voted.

Dean should never of put up the "I enforce the rules wall, hell or high water". He did let Nevada and others move their date up to spread the cycle around...so what does that tell us?

The right to vote is greater than any rule.

Fines are issued in all aspects of business and communities for such minor issues. A fine would of been appropriate since other states were granted, yes granted the privilege. So, the rule is is flexible.

Now, the entire country of Democrats have a bitter taste in their moths when they hear about voting. That's counter productive since every website seems to have, "Register to Vote" links.

[madfloridian]

24. No that is not true at all.

The four early states were leapfrogged by FL and MI and lost their places. They, all of them, applied to the DNC and got permission since they were butted.

I am amazed at how FL has let the spin go on. None of our leaders here have the integrity to tell the truth.

The rules were not fines. Why should they make up new rules for two arrogant states.

[Auntie Bush]

40. "Just as long as Hillary wins. That is what all of this has been about from the start."

Man...I smell rotten baloney! Pardon while I open some windows!

Are you determined to disenfranchise millions of FL voters just as long as Obama wins. I think so! If the tables are turned and Obama needed those votes...you'd be up here screaming..."The selfish evil Hillary cares more about winning than disfranchising millions of FL voters...Oh the outrage...I'm never going to vote for her in the GE". You can't deny you'd be all for ignoring the fine print. The whole situation can't be solved by the party because NO ONE wants to lose some votes and someone else wants to gain votes. That's why the discourse! It has nothing to do with rules or fine print.

The party could solve it on their own if BOTH candidates stayed out of their business. It was stupid of Dean to make the decision to disenfranchise innocent voters for moving the date. If he had been smart and farsighted he would have given them a hefty fine instead. Why the hell should voters be punished for their leaders decision?

For you to blame this on Hillary's need to win the White House is stupid and bias. Go to the corner and put your thinking cap on straight...it's twisted.

[People4Change]

22. FL Democrats are not that dumb, just our leaders are!

The dunce hats in this fiasco should go to FL senator Jeremy
Ring, a DEMOCRAT, and the FL Democratic party leadership, who
all thought they could move up the primary so FL would have
more importance and that the DNC would not, ultimately, punish
FL for the transgression. My hope is we've blown up the whole
primary system," Ring said. "It would be the biggest
legacy we'll get from this legislation."

He got that part right.

Well they were wrong about the forgive and forget part and all
FL Dems are going to pay the price.  As a FL Democratic I am
angry at Ring, the FL Dem leaders AND the DNC for saying our
votes wouldn't be counted at all while the Republicans told
the FL Repubs that they would take away 1/2 of their votes.  

Will I stay at home in November to punish them?  Hell no. 
Most Democrats I know said the same thing.  I don't know where
the St Pete Times did their survey.  WE have more intelligence
than our so called leaders.

[Spiffarino]

36. "WE have more intelligence than our so called leaders"

Which is why democracies work and dictatorships don't.

The Florida "leadership" dictated that they would break the rules and screwed it up royally, but it's Florida's Democratic voters who suffer.

[snot]

2. It's not fair to those who followed the rules for it to count.

They could follow the rules, or they could have done a re-vote -- they had plenty of time to see this coming.

[Clovis Sangrail]

7. exactly

Had we known there were no consequences to ignoring the scheduling rules we would have moved our primary up before Fl and Mi.
And should Fl and Mi get seated without a complete revote that fits within the rules you can bet that next time it will be used as precedent for other states to ignore the rules.

[VeraAgnes]

13. Where is the crime I say?

To withhold the right to vote is one for me. Dean could of issues a fine...but never hold the line and not let people vote. Other states got to move up early which was reasonable...but to discard, deny Americans to vote is a major blunder. Dean needs to fix this now.

[pajjr]

15. its not fair

that the democratic party has bungled this primary so badly . It is not the fault of Hillary or Obama

[madfloridian]

30. Blame the two states. And NOW it is Hillary's fault for demanding it.

Seems like so many here now don't care about anything but her winning.

[madfloridian]

3. And if we don't get our way we will vote for McCain.

Florida Dem senator whines to the BBC....threatens DNC.."mutually assured destruction."

We will destroy the party if you don't give us our way, Dr. Dean.

Now.

I say thank goodness that someone understands that there has to be some order.

FL and MI took a chance, and it did not work out for them. They should sit down now and hush.

[cyclezealot]

26. Seemed they were comparatevely quiet

It's the DNC that wanted MI and FL Dems to bail out the competition of Clinton and Obama. Its more like the DNC wanted MI and FL undo their mistakes. Similiar to how the Republicans handled this conflict. They cut their delegation, not eliminate them. A much smarter move. And we think Dr Dean brillant? The Republicans thought this through , why not Dr. Dean.

[madfloridian]

27. They did not care if they lost only half. That was the problem.

They were willing to risk half to get their way.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1903

They do not care if they destroy the party in their little tantrums.

[cyclezealot]

28. The Fl , MI GOP delegation cut in half did not destroy the Repukes

The GOP campaigned in both Primaries, back in January. . Can not Mr. Dean have the same foresight in predicting the outcome of his actions. It's not a tantrum. The conflict has been swept under the rug for a couple election cycles. Many of us want our primary choices to be a meaningful as those of other states. that is not asking too much.

[madfloridian]

29. Well, then, sue him. Everyone else is.

What's one more lawsuit. I am sure someone will be happy to fund it for you.

[Clovis Sangrail]

34. This wasn't about Fl and Mi wanting their primaries to be *as meaningful

as other states.

They wanted their primaries to be *more meaningful than other states.
That's still what this is about (at least for Fl)

I agree the primary system is screwed up and needs to be overhauled, but that needs to be done between primaries not during one.

Fl doesn't get to say "we don't want to play in your game" and then later say "no no no, we really do want to play"
It's not fair to everybody else.

[cyclezealot]

39. Sems to me it was the DNC that wanted Fl/MI players when

Neither Hillary or Obama had sufficient delegates to win the nomination without the Fla/ Mich vote. Up until the Clinton / Obama delegate lock the Mi / Fl situation was pretty much ignored by all.

[Mojambo]

4. Sucks for them. I think they need to get more involved with their state party

And make sure that they never let it fuck up this badly again.

Honestly, I don't see the Democrats carrying Florida anyway.

[Tarc]

5. That is what I have been saying for awhile now

Disenfranchising either Florida or Michigan will likely cost the Democratic nominee this election.

[BlueJac]

6. no need for more BushShit...........

Hillary you are so the past, it is time to move forward!

[RBInMaine]

9. What would be expected from a poll of FL dems on this? THEY BROKE THE RULES !

THEY BROKE THE DAMN RULES !! BE PISSED AT YOUR STATE FOR BREAKING THE RULES. DEAN AND OBAMA WOULD BE OK WITH A FAIR DO-OVER AT THE STATE'S OR PRIVATE EXPENSE. THAT IS FAIR !! FL AND MI BROKE THE FREAKIN' RULES.
THEY ARE REAPING WHAT THEY CHOSE TO SOW. THEY NEED TO TAKE THE LEAD TO FIX IT, NOT THE DNC !!

[AlGore-08.com]

10. Read the story at the link, most of the FL Dems blame the state leg, the state party & the DNC

The rank and file Florida democrats did not break the rules - - they did not decide when the primary would be held.

[madfloridian]

14. And Dean offfered a revote, and the state refused it.

So why the heck are they still mad with him?....Because of the spin and lies.

[John Q. Citizen]

25. It's true that the FL party's voters were abandoned by the FL party bosses.

Those voters need to get on the county steering committees and elect some less assholish leaders. Their attempt to grandstand and force there own selfish way down the throats of all the other states in the nation as well as their own voters was stupid, short sighted, and rude. Nobody started talking about a re-vote seriously until the last minute when time was very short. I can guess why the Repos are winning in Florida. The Dem party is run by and large by assholes who aren't that distinguishable from their Repo counter parts. Not all of them, but way too many.

The votes absolutely can't be counted even though rank and file want them to count. Running an election with no campaigning allowed isn't an election as we know it. To allow those votes would be a violation of all the ground rules agreed upon, as well as anti- democratic in a very real way. How can you hold an election where the candidates can't campaign? It breaks one of the basic tenets of what the West considers to be a "fair election."

MI is even a better example of a substandard election. No campaigning and just Hill and Kucinich (who attempted to be removed from the ballot) on the ballot.

So while I feel sorry for the rank and file, I can't in good conscience begin to see how delegates in a substandard non-election could be seated in any way that effected the race. Only after Hillary has conceded can a solution to FL and MI be crafted. I believe the party has suggested in passing a 50%/50% split of delegates might work. That seems to be the only fair way. Just split them in half since neither FL or MI has held or will hold what could be considered a fair election for the Dem nomination delegates.

[Me.]

16. The Dem Leadership In Fla. Knew What They Were Doing & The Chance They Were Taking

Their miscalculation was in thinking they would only lose half their delegates. They didn't mind that half the voters would subsequently be disenfranchised as long as they got their way and got to jump the line. Imagine their surprise when their plan backfired and they were told they'd have no delegates. And why? Because they went before the rules committee and lied to their faces. Stupid lies that could be checked and verified. Now that they've been caught they're whining?

[Zhade]

31. NO. It was not a legit election. Fuck cheating!

NT!

[DRoseDARs]

32. The title is slightly misleading; readers might confuse it for a larger Times publication instead

...of a smaller Florida newspaper which OF COURSE would find that many Floridians polled in Florida are going to want Florida's primary results to count. It's like polling the French in France about whether or not they like French wine. ;)

[tomreedtoon]

33. Damn it, listen....THERE IS NO FLORIDA DEMOCRATIC PARTY!

They are all Republicans wearing donkey ears. They LAUGHED about their illegal switch of primary dates. They want to destroy Dean and the national Democratic organization. How thick are your skulls that you haven't realized it yet?

If you keep claiming that there is a genuine Democratic Party apparatus in the Sunshine State, I'm going to slap you with those stale leftover pizzas they sell at Disney World until you apologize.

[Vinca]

35. I was thinking about the Florida primary - it was right after SC, right?

It occurred to me that if Obama had gone into Florida, right after his huge win in South Carolina, and campaigned the way he usually does - speeches, town halls, etc. - he might have won it. It's too bad we'll never know. I said the moment I heard the DNC plan that it was big trouble - just to stop a state from going earlier in the cycle. Back then, I remember being in the minority. Most thought it was the only way make the primary "fair." Most thought the rearranging of states in order to diminish the role of Iowa and New Hampshire was a good idea. Hate to say I told you so. The DNC should have left well enough alone.

[Spiffarino]

38. The Republicans got it right

Yeah, I know. My tongue burns just uttering those words.

What they did was immediately cut the delegate count in half, which punished them for breaking the rules but also allowed Florida go on with its primary campaign. If the DNC had done the same thing it might have controlled the damage.

OTOH, Florida Democratic leaders are so thick-headed they surely would have found another way to mess the thing up. Never mind.

[ReformedChris]

37. If McCain picks Gov.Crist as his VP then Florida is basically marginalized for us anyways

If not, Florida will be in play and our party has to fix whatever bruised egos there are in the FL Democratic Party to get the higher ups motivated. I think we will rally as true Florida Democrats to the nominee in the end. Too much is riding on this election to allow 100 Year War McCain into the White House due to some stupid ass delegate flap.

[NoodleyAppendage]

41. TOUGH SHIT. If Florida or Michigan voters don't like it they should vote their STATE REPS out.

This problem was NOT caused by Dean or the DNC. It was caused by Florida and Michigan state legislatures thumbing their noses at RULES THAT THE REMAINING 48 STATES ADHERED TO.

FUCK 'EM.

J