Beyond the Border of War (AWOL US soldiers in Canada)

[RedSock]

Source: Washington Post

TORONTO -- In from the cold they come, gangly young men and graying grandfathers alike, filling a downtown church with the kind of polite anticipation more befitting an afternoon wedding than an antiwar rally. Banners dangle from the choir loft, bearing the same appeal as the T-shirts for sale in the foyer: "Let Them Stay."

Lee Zaslofsky bustles from pew to pew, an anxious organizer making sure everyone is in place on a recent Saturday -- the politicians and academics, the musicians, the pacifists, and a handful of runaway American soldiers seeking refuge in Canada.

Zaslofsky, 63, knows each of the latter by both name and need. There is Jeremy Hinzman, the first one to seek asylum here, in limbo for four years now. And Phil McDowell, the computer geek whose patriotism was put to the test in Baghdad. And Patrick Hart, the veteran worried about lost medical benefits for his sick son. All found their way to Zaslofsky and the quasi-underground network he runs for AWOL Americans crossing the border with little more than what they can fit in a duffel bag. ...

Across Canada, the remnants of a lost counterculture are rising up again as hundreds of aging draft dodgers reluctantly leave the quiet comforts of their anonymous lives to help an estimated 200 Iraq war deserters who fled north with no promise of asylum.

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/16/AR2008031602749.html

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Great to finally see something about this issue in the US MSM.

(edit: added description to title)

[superconnected]

1. Heros. They chose not to kill people.

And to me that makes them heros.

[rmgarrette64]

7. Nope, sorry. Deserters.

Not even a question about it. This is an all-volunteer army. They volunteered, then fled. They aren't heroes, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.

By all means, if they want to stay in Canada, let them. They're not worth the effort. If they come home, they should face a courts-martial.

R. Garrett

[RedSock]

10. why not read the article?

why don't you tell phil mcdowell that he signed up ... he did his duty, fulfilled the contract he and the US signed -- and then was called back AGAINST HIS WILL.

another solider served for 2 years -- as he had agreed to -- and was stop-lossed and re-drafted against his will FOR 25 ADDITIONAL YEARS!!!

some people who have fled to canada signed up because it was the only way for them to get health care for their young children.

read joshua key's "the deserter's tale" for how recruiters lie and lie and lie to get men and women to sign up.

...

by the way, the vietnam guys happily refer to themselvces as deserters, it is not an insult.

...

also as i recall, the whole "following orders" defense sort of went out of style at nuremberg.

[Zhade]

14. Bet you'd volunteer for a firing squad too, huh?

Deserting an illegal war of aggression - not fighting in it - is the honorable thing to do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Have you seen Body of War?

Tomas Young signed up on 9-13-01 to go to Afghanistan and get Osama. But he was sent to Iraq where he only saw women and children fleeing from US troops. That same story is repeated by many vets of this war.

http://www.bodyofwar.com/

Did you watch any of the Winter Soldier testimony last weekend?

http://ivaw.org/

Lying to go to war and lying to the troops about the mission - is this okay with you? Or is deserting the truly honorable act?

[Zhade]

13. Indeed. Real heroes.

NT!

[ClayZ]

2. K & R

[Hulk]

3. This may not be popular, but I've got to say it...

I was a Vietnam draftee. I was drafted in '69, went to infantry training and got shipped over to Nam in late summer and came home on my back in late October. It took me three months before I could get up and walk again.

I had that choice to run to Canada, but I knew someone else was going to fill my spot if I did, and I wasn't sure that our country could be so f*cked up as to be fighting a worthless war with no real purpose. I was wrong.

Later I was teaching and met a young man about my age, and I learned he DID run to Canada, and was later given immunity to return to the US. I resented that...a great deal. I don't think there was anyone over there fighting next to me that thought it was "a good war", or that it was accomplishing anything. Now I'm working next to a guy that ran north to avoid the hell that I endured, and the hell that 59,000 never came home alive from. I resented that then...and I think I still resent it now.

I realize they had the same choice I did, but out of duty to my country, which is a hollow statement in many senses, I reluctantly answered the call.

To refer to them as "heroes" is a bit much for me to swallow. I see where you are coming from, "they didn't kill anybody", but "heroes"?? I don't think so. They went because they didn't want their asses chewed up and spit out for nothing like what has happened to the other nearly 4000 dead and tens of thousands maimed and mentally injured. When you are stuck in that situation, you kill in order to avoid being killed. You kill in order to save your brother or sister next to you.

I think if you ask any soldier on the front lines in Iraq, "the grunts"...they will nearly all say that they don't want to be there and that they would do anything to get home. Are they heroes?? Or are they stuck in the same Catch 22 that I was stuck in?? You believe in your country, and your country screws you over.

Not heroes in my book. They left to save their skin, and I appreciate that...but I don't respect it. Maybe there is no other way, but let's not start calling them "heroes". Way off the mark, in my humble opinion.

The officer up in Seattle that refuses to go for conscientious reasons, maybe that's the noble way to go. Run to Canada or Mexico or Europe or hide away if you want to....but let's not start calling them "heroes".

[Kolesar]

4. That was insightful

Ok, consider this. A young person signs up to fight the war on terror. A noble motivation. Then, the US decides to invade Iraq. Some period of time into the soldier's enlistment, the message finally gets out in the media that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and was not a threat of any sort, certainly not worth invading with any size of military. The soldier feels he has been "had" and wants out. How would you advise him?

[Pogue.Mahone]

5. Not much wiggle room...

you didn't say what branch of the service he's in and i can only talk about the marine corps. he's really got no choice but to suck it up and carry on. he could apply for conscientious objector (co) status but that entails something along the lines of a religious conversion, not just a political objection. and if he tries for co status, it has to be a formalized conversion, where he goes and meets with a representative of that religion, someone who's willing to accompany him and make the statement that he's a true convert and the war is against his religious/moral convictions. then a board will be convened to review his request to see if it has merit.

i understand in the navy you can actually BUY your way out of a contract.

[JeanGrey]

6. Good for you. YOU are a hero. Not these men.

I apologize for them to you.

[RedSock]

11. heroes

These men do not want to be called heroes. They want to live with their families in peace.

I find it amazing (and sad) that supposedly progressive people who are against the Iraq occupation would not support these men and women.

They should have stayed in Iraq and continued murdering innocent civilians?

They should have stayed in Iraq and continued torturing children?

They should have stayed in Iraq and continued bombing residential neighborhoods?

They should have stayed in Iraq and continued doing the illegal, immoral work of Bush and Cheney?

REALLY? That's what you actually believe?

...

You either support the men and women who have woken up and turned their back on this horrific invasion and occupation -- or you can support what the US is doing in Iraq.

It's one or the other.

...

EDIT: These men and women have packed up whatever they could fit in their cars (some with young children) and drove to an another country where they had no job waiting, no place to live, no friends, no family ... simply because they could not stand going back to the hellhole of Iraq.

That takes a special kind of courage.

[Zhade]

16. HEAR, HEAR! The truth!

NT!

[JeanGrey]

17. I stand by what I said and I again say to the one who served;

you deserve to be called "hero".

[Zhade]

18. The ones who refuse to murder for oil: heroes.

Heroes, one and all.

[Outlier]

8. I defer to those who served.

I think your point about those awol not being heroes is spot on. The draft dodgers in the 60's had more reason to run than the enlistees the last 10 years, because they were drafted and did not volunteer. Someone who wanted to show courage, who had enlisted, should have been leading the anti-war marches or adopting a pacifist stance and trying to get out of their service in a very public anti-war way, not running away to Canada, that just made somebody else get called up.

Your statement of going to Vietnam so someone else would not have to go in your place is a most profound statment of selflessness. That must have taken a great deal of courage, and you should be proud of your service.

If I recall, Al Gore made the same statement discussing his Vietnam experience. He went to vietnam as opposed to dodging the draft thru the national guard or appling for the never ending deferment, and forcing someone else to take his place.

In that you and Gore are one in the same, which should make your day.

[Zhade]

15. They refuse to kill in a criminal war. They're heroes.

NT!

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. They are heroes because they refuse to kill innocent women and children

Watch the WInter Soldier testimony. Everything about this war is a lie. The heroes are rejecting the lies.

US troops defecate in MRE containers and give them to hungry Iraqi children.

Iraqi women are raped by US troops.

Iraqis who don't speak English are shot by our troops for failing to follow orders - given in English.

http://ivaw.org/

Watch the testimony. Educate yourself.

[superconnected]

9. I have no problem with a soldier changing their mind and not fighting

or anyone for that matter.

The people who resent these people are people who force their will on others. That's all it can be.

I'm for making the military something people can legally get out of immediately if their opinion changes. Look how many people went into the bush war honestly, changed their mind and fought a war they didn't support mentally, and are now mentally fucked up for life because they have blood on their hands.

Nobody should have to have blood on their hands because... *gulp* some other poor snot who didn't have the guts or brains to say "NO" would have to fill their place.

So in short patriotism and fake heroism - fighting(killing) so someone else doesn't have to, is a poor excuse that doesn't even rate, imo. If they left because they didn't want to die themselves, more power too them for that also. Saying they ought to stick their life on the line can only come from someone who prefers to force their will on others. Thank goodness these people changed their minds and didn't buy in to the prevailing bullshit reasons(cited on this very thread) to fight a war.

[Zhade]

12. THESE are the true heroes.

Not to knock our soldiers - they're pawns at best, and they need to come home and be eased back into society with every bit of aid we can give them - but those who risk it all to not kill others in an illegal, immoral occupation are truly brave.

[Supersedeas]

19. nothing to see here -- feed them more Heather Mills updates