Dozens of children in U.S. face life in prison

[Lone_Star_Dem]

Source: Reuters

ALABASTER, Alabama (Reuters) - Underage criminals cannot face the death penalty in the United States but dozens of offenders imprisoned for crimes committed when they were young teenagers will still die behind bars.

The U.S. Supreme Court abolished the death penalty for minors in 2005 but 19 states permit "life-means-life" sentences for those under 18, according to a study by the Equal Justice Initiative (EJI).

In all, 2,225 people are sentenced to die in U.S. prisons for crimes they committed as minors and 73 of them were aged 13 and 14 at the time of the crime, according to the group, which is based in Montgomery, Alabama.

Elsewhere in the world, life sentences with no chance of parole are rare for underage offenders. Human Rights Watch estimates that only 12 people outside the United States face such sentences.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1045443520080321?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

[Dinger]

1. K & R

This is an important issue.

[goddess40]

2. Waiving children to adult court is a sick practice

that has become all too common. In Wisconsin the fact that a child is 17 means no matter the crime or other circumstances the kids going to adult court.

[lonestarnot]

3. K & R.

[Pavulon]

4. 17 year old in Chapel Hill

shot the student body president in the head. Blew her brains out over a car.

He should die in prison. To bad he can not serve his term in florence ADX.

Now why should a person who executed someone (probably 2 people) not serve natural life???

[High Plains]

6. Redemption? Rehabilitation?

Most civilized countries do not sentence even teen killers to life or death. Why is it necessary that we do it?

We are insanely punitive in this country. How's that working for us?

[Pavulon]

10. We should spend more on prevention

I am sure that asshole was steeped in the thug life from a young age. Media, surroundings, gangs, all contributed. There are many facets to fixing this problem.

However once a person, rapes or murders (1st degree in this case) they loose the privilege of participation.

Let him die in prison. Problem solved in this case.

He, regretfully, in not eligible to be put to sleep. He choose his actions, time to pay for them.

[SpikeTss]

30. Then let's immediately lock up George Bush, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Dick Cheney, Donald R.

They've murdered 4000 young people on our side and more than 1.2 million foreigners.

However once a person, rapes or murders (1st degree in this case) they loose the privilege of participation.

Let him die in prison. Problem solved in this case.

Let's do it fast, before they murder even more people!

[Pavulon]

49. Wrong Thread

it takes away from the topic that really stands alone.

[ingac70]

11. I don't think young, multiple murderers...

are capable of rehabilitation. The circumstances surrounding a crime usually points to whether someone can be rehabilitated or not.

[High Plains]

17. Really? You don't think 30 years might change something?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but isn't the maximum sentence even for murder 20 or 30 years in many countries? Why do we have to be the world's hard-asses? And how's that working for us?

[ingac70]

21. No.

Someone who can take the life of a total stranger, not once, but twice or more, for a few bucks or for kicks will never be fit to live in society.

[mitchum]

25. Of course 30 years will change something; he will be a 47 year old sociopath

[pitohui]

20. but there is no such thing

our experience in THIS country is that the teen killers went on to kill again and again, that's why people cried out for the change in the law to begin with

teens were murdering people over drug disputes, getting out at age 18 or age 21, and the gang meanwhile could recruit other teens to kill knowing they too would get out early and not face the same consequences as older members of the gang

also you had cases such as "the thin blue line" where, because the real killer was a teen and couldn't face the death penalty and the cops were so hot to fry somebody, they framed up an innocent man and put him on death row instead -- they had to set an example

there are reasons why ordinary people called out for this change in the law, nobody was getting redeemed, instead, teen killers were getting free kills

the usa is overall a much more violent country than some others and at this point some people are so damaged that the only hope is to get them out of society

i can't move to another country, i didn't choose where i was born or the high barriers put to americans being able to emigrate, so i need protection from teen killers preying on the innocent here -- i live in the new orleans area and i'm damn sick and tired of the '90 day homicides,' this claim that teens are getting harsh sentences when they're often getting nothing at all seems rather bogus to me, i'm guessing the teens who are getting harsh sentences have committed multiple murders and violent armed robberies or "enforcing" of drug sales territory

[mitchum]

23. You can't rehabilitate a sociopath or a psychopath...and nebulous...

"woo woo" quasi-spiritual concepts like redemption have no place in a SECULAR society.

He should die in prison.

[darue]

46. perhaps that's true. our civilization has been based on standing for it's falsity tho

believing against all reason in hope that everyone can rise above beyond their present nature. forget that and we might as well give up and go to Skinners cybernetic control system.

[flashl]

7. Not trying to compare who is more brutal but NO ONE goes to jail for these deaths

Report Recounts Horrors of Youth Boot Camps

Washington (The New York Times/October 11, 2007) — Reports of abuse of troubled young people in privately run boot camps and other residential treatment centers are widespread, with examples numbering in the thousands, according to a federal report released Wednesday.

The report also found that managers of these programs, which are largely unregulated, faced little or no punishment for their actions.

The report, by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, examined the cases of 10 teenagers who died while at programs in six states, finding "significant evidence of ineffective management" and "reckless or negligent operating practices." The report detailed evidence that teenagers were starved, forced to eat their own vomit, and to wallow for hours in their own excrement.

In one instance, a boy was so dehydrated that he ate dirt to survive, according to witnesses and an autopsy.

Investigators also found that owners and employees were seldom sent to prison, even when teenagers died in their care. Five of these programs are still in operation, some under new names or in other states.

Teen Boot Camps

[Lone_Star_Dem]

9. Not all of the children were even convicted of murder

For me it's painful to know here in the United States we have children being sentenced to life in prison for offenses other than capital murder. Not to mention that we have 13 and 14 year olds who are being written off as lost causes who have committed murder.

However, as it states in the article, it's popular with voters. Which means that unless we change our views as a society nothing will be changed.

[Pavulon]

12. You do not get natural life

for very many things. Generally murder triggers that sentence.

[flashl]

19. Kindly explain why cases such as

Juan Rayford are pervasive. He received 11 life terms when no one was harmed.

IMHO, white collar crimes in the U.S. harms, kills, and maims far more individuals than one person perceived as a threat to society. If there is cause for alarm, surely decisions deem as business decisions to make profits, accepting deaths as a risk, should be viewed the same.

[Pavulon]

28. Parole? Shooting into an occupied dwelling

is not a minor thing. Seems excessive but the only info I see online is his site.

His record, aggravating circumstances, etc would allow for a fair look.

[flashl]

32. His case was reviewed in Nov 2007 AFTER prosecutor dropped gun charges. No change in sentence. nt

[darue]

31. the judge and prosecutor in the Juan Rayford case should be disbarred and impoverished

this is the most outrageous thing I've ever seen. GODDAMN the UNITED STATES for this shit.

[flashl]

33. Its more common than you think. Associate a kid w/gang they are gone, LWOP.

[darue]

45. each LWOP is a significant monetary unit for the new Janissary class

lower incarceration rate = bad for business

how sad that we could permit it to come to this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. An 11 MILLION dollar bond?

Good grief. That case is a huge travesty.

[struggle4progress]

44. What, no link? Why am I not surprised? Could it be no evidence supports your claim?

[deadmessengers]

14. Interesting point...

There has to be a line where a crime is so heinous, a transgression against society so deep, that the person committing that crime has to be considered irredeemable, and that person's permanent removal from society is the only appropriate punishment. I don't believe that the punishment for someone who has crossed that line should include death, but life-without-parole seems very reasonable and societally acceptable under those circumstances. However, I'm willing to reserve judgement on the 17-year old in NC you cited, though - the whole facts and courts of law thing, you know.

Although, there's some irony to your post that I have to point out - your username (Pavulon) is the name of one of the three drugs used in the lethal injection procedure in the US.

[Pavulon]

15. Wife is a doctor

PB is a paralytic. Very common in emergency medicine. Threatens to immobilize me with it when I get on her nerves.

They should just use haloethane inhaled. 1000x ld50 no injection required. Quick and painless.

The process is antiquated and could be updated.
Carfentanyl want to knock an elephant out, this is the trick. Lethal dose for a person would fit on the head of a pin.

Happiness then dead..

[jus_the_facts]

22. "life-without-parole seems very reasonable and societally acceptable"

....if you believe this then you shouldn't have a problem with TORTURE....the hypocrisy of life in prison against the death penalty is beyond comprehension if you think torture is wrong...only people who've never spent time in/or spent time visiting others in jails and prisons can say with a straight face that LIFE BEHIND BARS is more humane.

[deadmessengers]

34. So what do you propose as an alternative?

There obviously has to be an upper boundary for what we as a society consider to be an acceptable punishment. For me that upper boundary is life without the possibility of parole, because it provides for the permanent removal of the worst sort of criminal from society, while still being reversible if errors are found (as we've seen repeatedly in the past in death penalty cases).

What is your upper bound, and why?

[jus_the_facts]

40. the subject has been debated for centuries....

....there must not be any alternatives....and those whose sentences were reversed...bet their lives are so much better now after living for YEARS with "the worst sort of criminals in society"...it's a paradox...such is life itself.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. He is 17

If that isn't a good enough reason, I don't know what to tell you.

[mainegreen]

5. Depends on the age and the crime the child committed.

I certainly think there are crimes a 16+ year old can commit that should prevent their release.

[Warpy]

8. Kids go through a massive brain rewiring process

starting at puberty. Locking these kids up for life solves nothing much. It will take them years of being evaluated and re evaluated to sort out the psychopaths versus the kids who got drunk and stupid and did something horrible.

The latter group has the hope of being cleaned up and returned to the world. The former group should never see the light of day without razor wire blocking the sun again.

[pitohui]

24. these "kids" are bigger and stronger than i am

virtually every 13 year old is bigger and stronger than i am -- nonsense to call them a "child" or a "kid" and pretend they're on the same level as some helpless toddler

by the time you're 7 or 8, you know it's wrong to pick up a gun and shoot somebody to get what's in their wallet

i'm not interested in the "bie lie" we hear nowadays about how people are not adults capable of moral sense until age 25, your brain gets constantly rewired and changed all the time if you're learning and growing at all, that doesn't mean you should be able to get in some free kills

if the kid who robbed and shot somebody did it while high or drunk, i don't care, the person they killed doesn't get their life back because the kid has the excuse of being "high"

[Hugabear]

27. So you think that science, psychology, and basic anatomy is just a "big lie"?

When did this turn into FR?

[woo me with science]

35. Oh please. You speak as though science, psychology, and anatomy had one finding.

Development is extremely complex, and these threads that refer to 17-year-olds as "children" are disingenuous. Just as an example, do you know what psychology teaches about the development of conscience? I'll give you a hint. Conscience and the ability to empathize with another human being usually don't kick in belatedly, at 18 or 21. A 17-year-old young man is not an unformed blob, waiting for the magical age of 21 for all his capacities to magically kick in and make him a stellar member of society.

Yes, development matters, and there are some executive processes that can kick in late. However, to assume that every 17-year-old who commits a heinous act is a victim of his own immaturity is beyond naive. The vast majority of 17-year-olds never hold a gun to someone's head or torture another human being. These people need to be handled on a case-by-case basis and the whole of their crime and psyche and circumstances considered. Pretending that "science" provides evidence only for your side of this issue is either a willful or extremely ignorant misreading of the scientific literature.

[Warpy]

29. Alas, they still ARE kids

and while it might be uncomfortable to admit, they are simply not adults. They lack the reasoning power of adults. Teenagers do stupid things, things they wouldn't have done before they hit puberty and still had good sense.

I don't care how big they've gotten, they're still not adults.

If you want to spend $50,000/year of your own money keeping a 15 year old "adult" locked up for 65 years, be my guest. However, I know some of these rotten kids are salvageable once they clean up and grow up.

[brentspeak]

41. Most teenagers don't murder other human beings

But the ones that do need to be locked up - forever.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. I believe we should always try to rehabilitate our children

A brain isn't fully developed until the mid 20s.

[ButterflyBlood]

13. I've got no problems with sentencing 16 and 17 year old murderers to life

They're hardly any different than 18 year olds here. Does someone who kills someone a week before their 18th birthday deserve different treatment than had they committed it a week later?

[High Plains]

16. The US has five times more kids doing life than the whole rest of the world?

I feel so proud.

[Pavulon]

18. A few factors..

[Solon]

47. Eh, those factors make little sense...

Why you show a television as an example is simply puzzling, in both Europe and Japan, they have just as many, if not more violent television shows, and they watch many of the same movies we do, so that can't be a factor.

As far as Gangs, well, they are a problem, but its more connected to the Drug war and Prohibition factors than anything else. Decriminalize drugs and set up treatment centers for addicts, treating it as a medical problem, rather than a criminal problem, and you would go quite far in reducing the violence associated with drugs.

The last one is more like an expression of the subculture created by the second problem mentioned, but it really doesn't have the influence you would think, again, Americans aren't the only ones who listen to Gangsta rap, so I don't see that as much of a factor.

The fact is that the problems with youth crime rates in this country are linked to two key factors, abject poverty, with no opportunity for families to leave it, and drug prohibition, which, when linked with the poverty, is usually the only practical way to leave poverty, even if only temporarily. All prohibition does is criminalize users, and help dealers make a lot of money, the profit margins are obscene, and since its illegal, its also expensive.

[Pavulon]

50. The lifestyle stacks bodies..

if you back out suicides you see a very large number of gang and drug related deaths. These guys are fighting in the "drug war".

What put them there is what needs to be changed.

I listened to gangsta rap, country music, death metal, in friends cars in high school, college dooms and m923 trucks.

A good number of people I met were poor black and rural. They had a different lifestyle than people who grew up in the city.

I agree with your post, 100%.

[mitchum]

26. Well, this is "the land of opportunity"

[sudopod]

36. holy shit! O_o nt

[depakid]

37. It would be interesting to study attitudes toward child sentencing and firearms regulation

My guess is that one would find a strong correlation between those who support draconian punishment and those with libertarian views toward firearms.

It would also be interesting to ferret out the core attitudes, beliefs and values underlying those positions.

[54anickel]

42. Well, it doesn't appear to be working as a deterrent....

or reformatory, my guess is it is now thought of as a good thing on its own account...the wicked should suffer. A vindictive punishment, sort of like the concept of hell. Back in the "old days" there was a "penitentiary" for those serving a "penance" and being rehabilitated and an asylum for those who needed "treatment" for a mental illness - what some up thread are calling a sociopath...guess that's why they both were considered part of "social services". Remember those?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. Sociopathy is hard to define.

Sociopathy is usually used to describe criminals without conscience or the ability to feel empathy or remorse. The statement has been made you can't grow a conscience. The term is often used interchangeably with psychopathy. Both terms are often confused with psychotic disorders. Just wanted to offer some clarification.

David

[scrinmaster]

59. It probably has something to do with punishing the people who commit crimes,

Instead of trying to take rights away from those who have done nothing wrong.

[sarcasmo]

38. USA, USA, oops I mean Prison Industrial Complex, were #1, were #1.

[Nutmegger]

39. Another big win for the "tough on crime" crowd and the Prison Industrial Complex. [n\t]

[AwakeAtLast]

43. When we start spending more on education than we spend on prisons, that will change

I get so angry when I hear people talk about how much money we "waste" on education, yet don't think twice about that brand new Supermax prison the state just built.

Kinda like our military budget, now that I think about it. Give education a quarter of the what the military gets - you would see dramatic changes in our nation's children.

[ohio2007]

51. Close the prisons. That education institution turns out the wrong type of graduates

they don't work. We should deport the worst case inmates to our Turkish ally. The cost would be a fraction of what it is in the US institutions

/sarc

[LynnTheDem]

48. We're #1!!! We're #1!!!

More shame to pile onto the staggering pile of America's shame.

[treestar]

52. If they murdered someone, it may not be a bad thing

Than have them grow up, go out and commit murder again, then get the death penalty.

That's the idea, lock up those who are dangerous to others, but without killing them. Sounds more humane. If it is really possible to rehabilitate them, that can be shown or done. So there should at least be the possibility of parole as there would be with any lifer. The idea was that being younger, it was more likely they could be rehabilitated.

[ohio2007]

53. Vermont inmates file lawsuit over prison food

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=efe_1206294504

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Just read a story the other day about a 16 year old sentenced to 30 years

for having sex with a minor. A 16 year old.

On edit, the minor was 14.

[happyslug]

60. Has anybody done ANY research on this, or are you just repeating what the TV says???

More a more research on the Brain are pointing to 21 as the point where the Brain is fully developed:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040508/bob9.asp
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=27&did=977

The ability to "Multi-Task" does not appear till you are about 17, add a few years to develop this, again it shows the brain is NOT fully developed till one is Age 21.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050518104401.htm

If someone is Convicted of Murder the chances he will commit another Murder is slim, less than 1%:

Study showing Murder rates for Released murders (.6 for people on Full Parole and .2% for people on "Day Parole" i.e. released during the day, but had to be in a half-way house or other secure building at night:
http://www.npb-cnlc.gc.ca/reports/pr101001_e.htm

While people who commit Burglaries have a high rate of doing the same crime upon release from jail (Over 70% chance) Murder and other "Serious" crimes have much lower rates:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0603-02.htm

The report found that people who commit crimes involving money are more likely to be rearrested than those committing homicide or rape, with a recidivism rate of 70 percent for robbers and 74 percent for burglars compared with 41 percent for those whose previous crime was homicide and 46 percent for those whose previous crime was rape.

Please note the above report is for ALL CRIMES not just murder, thus the number is much higher than for repeat murderers.

Through you must watch the calculation, the following site highlights the 67% re-arrest for "Violent" crimes and then merely mention that the re-conviction rate is less then 50% within three years of release (And remember this is for ALL Crime not just the crime they had done time for) and only about 25% actually going back to Jail.:

http://ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/reentry/recidivism.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#recidivism

Rape is weird when it comes to Statistics. While only 5.3% of the people convicted of Rape are arrested for rape within three years of being released from Jail, those that do repeat sex crime do it repeatedly. This tends to Skew the statistics. For example if you have 100 people convicted of sex crimes, and within three years you have 100 new sex crimes from that same group, you can claim one rape for each rapist released, (i.e. 100% increase), even if only one of the released prisoners did all 100 subsequent rapes. Thus those Rapists who rape after their first conviction, need to be locked up permanently, most Murderers and Rapist rarely commit the crime again.

Now one of the reason is most Murders and Rapists serve very long sentences and thus are rarely released, even in the liberal days of the 1960s and 1970s, unless they served several years behind bars. Most are not the 20 year old hoodlum they were when the Murder occurred, they tend to be middle age about 45 year olds when they are released. The days of stress do to adolescents is long pass an keeping them in Jail a waste of time and money.

At least one Study indict that the more supervision an ex-inmate has upon release from the prison the lower the rate of re-new criminal activity:

http://www.ct.gov/doc/cwp/view.asp?a=1492&Q=305970

The main factor in a ex-felon bring re-arrested seems to be how much support he received AFTER he is released from Prison, the more support (Educational, Job Placement etc) the lower the chance that he or she will commit another crime.:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/336017_recidivism19.html
http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.org/article_index/article_display.cfm?id=5741&SiteTopicRequest=17&TOPIC_TITLE=State%20Funding
http://www.azcorrections.gov/adc/reports/recidivism.asp

The above was from just a one hour net search on the subject. The chance that a teenager (or anyone under age 21) is "Fixed" in his outlook for the rest of his life is NOT supported by the reports from the Scientific Community on this subject. Given that a person's brain is NOT fully developed till he is about age 21, the people of the Middle ages had it about right that 21 should be the age when you should treat a person as an adult, a more "advance" point of view than those expressed on this thread.