Pilot's gun discharges on US Airways flight

[Roland99]

Source: WCNC TV

CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A US Airways pilot’s gun accidentally discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday, according to as statement released by the airline. The statement said the discharge happened on Flight 1536, which left Denver at approximately 6:45am and arrived in Charlotte at approximately 11:51am. The Airbus A319 plane landed safely and none of the flight’s 124 passengers or five crew members was injured, according to the statement. It was a full flight. And airline spokeswoman said the plane has been taken out of service to make sure it is safe to return to flight. A Transportation Safety Administration spokeswoman reached by WCNC Sunday said the pilot is part of TSA’s Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO) program, which trains pilots to carry guns on flights. Andrea McCauley said the gun discharged in the cockpit, but she could not release how the gun was being transported at the time. She did not release the pilot’s name, but said he was authorized to carry the weapon and was last requalified in the FFDO program last November. A statement from TSA said the airplane was never in danger, and the TSA and the Federal Air Marshals Service are investigating the incident. WCNC reporter Diana Rugg is following up on this story.

Read more: http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-032308-sjf-gunonplane.1c4cabd1.html

[Pavulon]

1. Correction "Pilot discharges handgun.."

they don't go bang on their own...

[uppityperson]

2. Maybe it was one of those special AI ones that think and go bang on their own?

Indeed, the writing puts responsibility onto the gun for discharging.

[Xipe Totec]

3. Guns don't kill people

Pilots who don't know how to handle guns kill people.

[Bonobo]

6. Thank you.

[parasim]

7. Maybe he left it in the oven. nt

[wuushew]

9. Where do you get that from the article?

Unintended oxidation of explosives does seem consistent with the known rules of chemistry.

Jumping to the conclusion of pilot error seems imprudent without more information.

[Pavulon]

11. never seen it.

fired thousands of rounds from various weapons. even the m16, that had a tendency to dimple rounds when the bolt released, never popped one.

Not saying it is not possible, just very very improbable.

[RamboLiberal]

17. Almost impossible

Believe me this was pilot error. No excuse for a negligent discharge. For whatever reason he must've had it out of the holster and when handling had finger in trigger instead of along side the gun. BOOM! Wonder if any brown stain pants in cockpit!!!!! That had to be really loud in the enclosed space of a cockpit. Send that pilot back for retraining in firearms or pull his/her license to carry on planes.

[Sweet Pea]

18. Were you in the cockpit with the pilot?

If not, whatever you post is mere speculation, nothing more, nothing less.

Peopel who post absolutes without having the experience of being there to witness something are more often than not wannabe's who are looking for attention.

[RamboLiberal]

23. No - but you ask anyone who handles handguns

& incidentally I've been shooting competition for 10 years and shooting for 15. The kind of handgun that pilot would've been carrying wouldn't have gone off w/o him pressing the trigger.

People have Negligent Discharges most often when they are holstering/unholstering or when they drop a gun and instead of letting it hit the deck make a grab for it. BOOM.

I don't have to be in the cockpit to know the likely scenario. It wasn't ammo going off on its own.

[Sweet Pea]

28. I have experience with weapons as well

and also know that accidental discharges CAN happen without anyone touching a trigger or in some cases the weapon itself. Corroded firing pins, eroded hammer stops, poorly maintained hardware - any number of reasons could have resulted in that weapon discharging accidentally without the pilot's hand even getting close to that trigger. You weren't there so you don't know shit about what happened. All you can do is speculate, and my fucking dog could speculate as well as you can, it appears.

Perhaps you do think you are the end all and be all as far as weapons are concerned (with a nick like Rambo, my doubts are erased) but I reiterate my initial comment - anyone who states an absolute without even being at the scene of whatever happened is a poseur.

[RamboLiberal]

29. Well this expert agrees with me

Mike Boyd, who runs the Colorado-based aviation consulting firm The Boyd Group, said: "The TSA has never been real supportive of this program. It's something I think Congress kind of put on them."

Boyd supports the program. He said the only way he can surmise a gun going off in flight is if it was not properly stored.

"A properly stored weapon with the safety on does not go off," he said. "The gun had to be out in the open. The gun had to be handled."

http://www.denverpost.com/rapids/ci_8686897

The pilots to my understanding carry H&Ks. A very fine very reliable handgun. He wasn't carrying some piece of shit firearm that goes off on its own. Someone or something touched that trigger! I hope they release the report cause I bet I'm right on this one.

I've trained with enough firearms with a number of experts to know that most ND's are caused by a human brain fart and not some mechanical problem, especially with modern firearms like this pilot would be carrying! I'd bet 99% on human brain fart less than 1% on mechanical problem with gun.

My bet since they were on landing approach is he was stowing the gun. I read that they have to have some kind of lock or have the weapon locked when off the plane. I'm not sure what TSA requires them to use. Another possibility is he forgot to use the decocking lever which you know makes it that much easier for a lighter trigger touch to fire the weapon.

And my inital reply wasn't to you but to poster who speculated some chemical reaction in ammo magically caused it to fire. If you're such an expert you know with modern handgun ammo that is virtually impossible!

On edit they do carry H&K.

"The training is very rigorous and extensive," Baird said, adding that crew members who completed the program were issued Heckler & Koch .40-caliber semiautomatic handguns. Some pilots carry guns that are loaded and ready to go, he said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-pilot25mar25,1,537268.story

[RamboLiberal]

51. Another expert

But they all carry the same gun, the high-priced and high-quality H&K USP, which Alter said was specially selected for the program. Gun safety expert Ronald Scott, a ballistics expert who served for 25 years with the Massachusetts State Police, said the gun wouldn't discharge accidentally if dropped or jarred in some way.

"It's a top-of-the-line model," Scott said. "They're accurate and highly reliable. This is not something that you would just walk into a gun store and buy. And it's also not something that goes off by itself. ... Someone would have to squeeze the trigger."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hDecnvyEUT05TRqnyCbUfz9W5PegD8VKRCL00

[NickB79]

25. Essentially, you're stating the gunpowder spontaneously combusted

FWIW, there are literally tons of surplus ammo on the market, some from WWII, that still functions properly when fired and doesn't explode randomly. You need extremely rapid oxidation, ie flame or spark from the primer, to set off the powder. A slow, steady oxidation of gunpowder simply converts it to fertilizer.

[Ztarbod]

13. Absolutely correct!

[truthisfreedom]

4. F*cking disaster waiting to happen. The plane was "never in any danger" my ass.

It was obviously in danger. The plane was hit by the bullet... obviously, because no people were.

Pilots are very busy people. Adding a gun to the mix is f*ing ridiculous! Anybody who claims the people on that plane were safer because of that gun's presence IS OUT OF HIS/HER MIND.

[Pavulon]

12. many Air Force personnel

carry a weapon (used to be an m9) as part of their kit. Without hearing more it is not possible to get a good picture.

[donco]

5. Hmm,his name

didn’t happen to be Barney did it? :-)

[xchrom]

8. yup -- there we go.

you could see that coming.

[harmonicon]

10. I guess the program just "trains pilots to carry guns on flights"

Apparently it does not train them in how and/or when to use them. If this jackass isn't fired, there will never be any excuse by any company to ever fire anyone for having done anything - ever.

[RamboLiberal]

31. They have to requalify twice a year

The Federal Flight Deck Officer program, created in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, trains eligible flight crew members in the use of firearms, use of force, legal issues, defensive tactics, the psychology of survival and standard operating procedures. Officers who carry firearms are required to requalify for the program twice a year.

"The training is very rigorous and extensive," Baird said, adding that crew members who completed the program were issued Heckler & Koch .40-caliber semiautomatic handguns. Some pilots carry guns that are loaded and ready to go, he said.

The pilot whose gun discharged Saturday last requalified on Nov. 7, according to the TSA statement.

"They go through same process it takes to join the FBI or other federal law enforcement organizations," Hesselbein said. "It's a stringent program. This was an accidental discharge -- no one wants to see this happen again. But it's a known risk, and they're going to see what they can do to make sure it doesn't happen again."

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-pilot25mar25,1,537268.story

[defendandprotect]

14. THIS is the typical end result of having guns --- !!!

[Orsino]

20. No, it's not typical...

...but statistically it's inevitable.

[slackmaster]

22. And if fear of armed pilots prevents one plane full of people from crashing into a building

The danger of having pilots carrying guns is a small price to pay.

[defendandprotect]

26. NORAD might actually come in handy to intercept planes . . .

and OOPS! that's exactly what they used to do prior to 9/11 --- !!!

[sergeiAK]

30. That might have an adverse effect

on the lives of those aboard. Are they expendable, because that's what you appear to be saying?

[Thickasabrick]

15. Living in Charlotte and forced to fly US "Scare" - this doesn't

surprise me at all. Worst airline ever.

[SharonAnn]

16. US AIR - Unfortunately Still Allegheny In Reality

[slackmaster]

19. And the plane did not experience an "explosive decompression"?

Amazing.

[harun]

21. They probably use bullets that specifically will NOT do that. I wonder

if the windows in the cockpit would be protected though. One would think so.

[RamboLiberal]

24. That's a James Bond myth

Mythbusters proved this one wrong. http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2004/01/mythbusters_explosive_decompre.html

[RamboLiberal]

27. A bit more info

The Federal Air Marshall service said this is the first time anything like this has happened. Federal Flight Deck Officers use Heckler and Koch universal self-loading 40-caliber pistols and are allowed to carry these weapons ready to use -- like any other law enforcement officer. The Federal Flight Deck Officers need to be re-qualified twice a year.

A federal aviation security source told ABC the discharged round hit the side of the Airbus A319 and did not hit any sensitive equipment. The round likely exited the bulkhead but did not result in depressurization. The incident occurred on final approach.

TSA said passengers were not aware that the weapon was discharged and flight 1536 landed without incident.

The jet has been taken out of service for inspection.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15690409/detail.html

[fascisthunter]

32. but, but, but... guns don't cause death

people with guns do...duh. It's why we need them so much....

[cboy4]

33. Photos show bullet damage to plane

Source: Associated Press


In these undated images provided to the Associated Press, Tuesday, March 25, 2008, a purported bullet hole is shown in a US Airways aircraft. In the top photo a suspected bullet hole is shown in the left third of the photo. In the bottom photo the suspected bullet hole is shown in the bottom center of the photograph. A gunshot fired from a pistol belonging to the pilot of a US Airways flight blasted a small hole through the plane's cockpit wall. Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver to Charlotte did not pose a danger to those on board.


CHARLOTTE, N.C. - Photos show that a shot fired from a US Airways pilot's pistol blasted a small hole through the cockpit wall of a plane that landed in North Carolina.

The photos obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press show a small entry hole in the lower side of the cockpit wall and a small exit hole on the exterior below the cockpit window.

The AP described the photos and the bullet hole to US Airways spokesman Phil Gee, who said "they sound authentic."

Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver to Charlotte did not endanger those on board.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080325/ap_on_re_us/gun_on_plane_11

[kestrel91316]

34. Oy. Well, at least the plane didn't undergo explosive depressurization....

It definitely could have turned out worse, I suspect.

[bean fidhleir]

35. I think they have sealant to prevent that

There are too many things that can punch a small hole through an airliner in flight.

[slackmaster]

36. Paging AJNTSA Guy

[LeftyMom]

38. That only happens in movies.

http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2004/01/mythbusters_explosive_decompre.html

[RamboLiberal]

40. As another poster pointed out - bullet explosive decompression

is a movie myth. Hey maybe the pilot was trying to be a mythbuster. :sarcasm:

[snooper2]

37. Was Hillary in the cockpit..

:evilgrin:

duck!

[KansDem]

39. Photo of pilot

:sarcasm:

[RamboLiberal]

41. CNN asked how gun goes off in plane

What I liked best about reporting on the accidental discharge of a gun in the cockpit of a US Airways flight to Charlotte, N.C., was the interview on CNN with a pilot (not the one who fired the gun). We news media types don’t know much about what happened in this incident. In fact, all we know is that a gun went off and the passengers didn’t even know about it. So the CNN reporter was asking questions like “How could a gun go off in an airplane?” … to which the pilot replied something like “Pretty much the same way it does on the ground.” Yup.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/andersmeanders/entries/2008/03/25/when_pilots_fire_accident.html

[Warpy]

43. In other words, he was playing with it because he was bored

or trying to show off what a stud he is.

He was just damned lucky it didn't wipe out any of the important stuff living behind that cockpit wall.

That asshole should never be allowed to carry a gun on board again. He's proven he can't be trusted with it.

[Kelvin Mace]

47. The only way the gun could go off

would be if the hammer was cocked. Anyone carrying a gun in such a manner is an idiot (barring law enforcement). Having the safety off as well makes him a fucking idiot.

[RamboLiberal]

50. No - hammer doesn't have to be cocked

I'm not quite as familar with H&K as I am with Sigs, Glocks and S&W M&P but I believe the H&K he may have been carrying has a decocker and a safety.

Obviously the saftey had to be off.

Now he may have forgotten to use the decocker when he chambered the round. Therefore the gun would be in single action mode, i.e. only a light press against trigger would fire it.

Or if hammer down then a double action discharge could happen, but he'd have to have pulled a heavier trigger.

My guess is he was stowing the gun in carry case since they were on landing approach and either inadvertently pressed the trigger or dropped the gun and tried to grab as it was falling(I've heard of several NDs that way). I sure hope he wasn't showing it off in the cockpit.

But they all carry the same gun, the high-priced and high-quality H&K USP, which Alter said was specially selected for the program. Gun safety expert Ronald Scott, a ballistics expert who served for 25 years with the Massachusetts State Police, said the gun wouldn't discharge accidentally if dropped or jarred in some way.

"It's a top-of-the-line model," Scott said. "They're accurate and highly reliable. This is not something that you would just walk into a gun store and buy. And it's also not something that goes off by itself. ... Someone would have to squeeze the trigger."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hDecnvyEUT05TRqnyCbUfz9W5PegD8VKRCL00

H&K USP

[ohio2007]

45. Actually.....here is the pic of the "air marshall"

[qanda]

42. I thought for sure this was a thread about Hillary

And how a bullet hole in an airplane proves she was telling the truth. I guess I've spent too much time in GDP.

[ohio2007]

44. fighter pilot wanna be. I'd say he almost shot off his knee cap

playing with the safety on that gun ;)

[heliarc]

46. Wonder if he was aiming for Paul Prudhomme

http://www.wwltv.com/

Or if he shot Prudhomme accidentally :-)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

48. Shouldn't be a problem for someone with certain

skills

[YDogg]

49. J-B Weld rocks

[RamboLiberal]

52. I speculated it happened as he was stowing the weapon

Since that made the most sense of why he had it out of the holster. Looks like that is what happened.

The report also revealed that the captain of Flight 1536 from Denver fired the shot as he "was stowing his weapon." The captain was carrying the 13-shot pistol as part of the Federal Flight Deck Officer program run by the federal Transportation Security Administration.

Officials have declined to say why the captain's weapon wasn't in his holster or flight bag.

TSA spokesman Nelson Minerly declined to say exactly how many pilots carry guns or under what circumstances they can have them out during a flight. But while they're in the cockpit, pilots in the program are supposed to wear the guns, and the guns should be loaded, Minerly said.

"Anytime the weapon is on the person," he said, "it needs to be ready to fire."

http://www.charlotte.com/business/story/552793.html

I don't know if the pilots are given a holster and of what type or if they can select their own. What they should have if they are stowing the guns in bags is a paddle holster so they don't have to remove the gun from the holster or have to get the holster off their belt. That way the gun can stay safely in the holster when taking off and putting on the holster.

I do wonder if he may have forgetten to decock the pistol when he originally chambered the round. It's an easy step to forget when chambering a round. But with the H&K the safety also had to be off. Well somehow he got his finger or something in the trigger with sufficient pressure to make it fire.

I understand they use a lock box when weapon not on their person.

[superconnected]

53. Probably drunk.

[RamboLiberal]

54. I seriously doubt that - n/t