Iraq war protesters disrupt Chicago Mass ("Catholic Schoolgirls Against the War")

[Barrett808]

Source: Associated Press

CHICAGO - Six Iraq war protesters disrupted an Easter Mass on Sunday, shouting and squirting fake blood on themselves and parishioners in a packed auditorium.

Three men and three women startled the crowd during Cardinal Francis George's homily, yelling "Even the Pope calls for peace" as they were removed from the Mass by security guards and ushers.

One Mass attendee, Mike Wainscott of Chicago, yelled at the anti-war protesters.

"Are you happy with yourselves?" he said. "There were kids in there. You scared little kids with your selfish act. Are you happy now?"

The group, which calls itself Catholic Schoolgirls Against the War, said in a statement after the arrests that they targeted the Holy Name Cathedral on Easter to reach a large audience, including Chicago's most prominent Catholic citizens and the press, which usually covers the services.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080324/ap_on_re_us/iraq_protest_mass

[Bluzmann57]

1. There is a time and place for everything

This was neither the time nor the place. Now I am sure people in here will flame me because it always happens when I express an opinion, but fuck it. I don't care. I am sticking by it. So I repeat, not the time, not the place. After all, Jesus was anti war. So why try to interrupt his celebration with this shit?

[acmavm]

13. I agree. The Mass was a celebration in honor of the most peaceful

human being to ever walk the Earth. If we lived by the rules he tried to teach us, we would truly live in peace.

[coalition_unwilling]

66. "The most peaceful human being to ever walk the earth . . . " - you have

got to be joking, right? First of all, there's lively debate as to whether the figure historically known as "Jesus of Nazareth" even existed. Even if the person did exist and even if the Synoptic Gospels give a reasonably reliable account of his teachings (highly questionable), the figure of the Synoptic Gospels alternates between radical pacifism and calls for violent radical change. (I can't bring the scriptural references to mind right now, but they are there within the first four Gospels.)

[spoony]

116. You can't "bring them to mind"

because your post shows you have little idea of what you're talking about. One clue is that you seem to not know the difference between the words "synoptic" and "canonical" amongst other things.

[coalition_unwilling]

125. Welcome to my Ignore list. Instead of responding to what I wrote, you

introduce a straw man (difference between Synoptic and Canonical, which I don't believe I ever raised) to dismiss my principal point, which is that there is serious dispute as to whether the historical figure known as "Jesus of Nazareth" even existed as recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke (the Synoptic Gospels).

[spoony]

131. Wow you can Google

Lol, at least you learned something today.

[and-justice-for-all]

133. There is NO evidence that 'He' ever existed..nt

[CatholicEdHead]

17. I agree

It was not the right time in the middle of Easter Sunday mass. They made many more enemies than friends.

[goddess40]

53. this was the exact time and place for this

if this church is like our local catholic church - pushing the war and support for Bush.

[selador]

56. there is no exact time and place

to interrupt a catholic mass (especially not on easter sunday) for a war protest

bad idea. these guys deserve some coolin off time in jail

[anti-hate]

71. this is the exact time and place for this

Americans, including Catholics really need to get out of the bubble. Who cares if this upset the churchgoers. It's time to think about how the rest of the world is being inconvenienced by illegal invasions and killing. I am glad these six young people protested where they knew it would get media coverage......maybe it will wake up the comatose !

[truedelphi]

88. Thanks Goddess. Didn't notice yr comemnts yesterday - I felt very alone

I cannot even enter a Catholic Church.

One reason - no women priests!!

Not to mention - no women bishops!

And then the last two Republicans I worked for were both Catholics.

And church to them was an opportunity to show off their new Lexus SUV, their new clothes etc.

Not much has changed since I was growing up!

[winter999]

89. Glad your kids weren't there.

[LeftyMom]

115. Do Christians ever actually read the bible?

Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. Matthew 21:12

If a devout Jew can overturn tables and make a scene in the temple at Jerusalem, I don't think shouting at Easter mass is even out of theological bounds, let alone real world ones. Hell, if the guy actually existed he'd probably be proud a few of his followers following in his sandal steps.

[davidinalameda]

2. I'm sure this display will win LOTS of people to their side

:sarcasm:

[Kolesar]

Too many Americans are pretending the war is not happening

The morning TV news tells us who is winning American Idol, instead.

[Hissyspit]

14. "win people to their side"

If people sitting in an Easter mass have not figured out which side they should be on by now, then they are the worst kind of hypocrites.

[Itchinjim]

3. Disrupting an Easter Mass is an outrage

I don't care what your opinion of the war or the church is. This was a bullshit act and these persons should be charged with a hate crime.

[Kolesar]

7. Having to go to Mass was an outrage

Brylcreem in my hair. Incense and icons.
We used to recite:
Forgive us oh, Lord,
Forgive us oh, Lord,
Forgive us oh, Lord,

Just to reinforce how wretched we 9 year olds were. At least they taught me the concept of coveting the neighbor's wife.

[CatholicEdHead]

18. It is optional, you do not have to go

Nobody is forcing you.

[Kolesar]

113. Not when you are ordered to get into the Pontiac

[davidinalameda]

21. your anti-religion bigotry is showing

you might want to tuck it back in

[Kolesar]

45. "Covet is like to steal the neighbors wife" So why do I want to steal Mrs. Pyschniak ?

...with the big legs?

I'd rather steal some Hot Wheels--like the Pugsley kid does.

[SoxFan]

109. Don't go

But don't you go trampling on the rights of others by demeaning what those of us who are Christians consider to be the most sacred day of the year.

[Kolesar]

112. trampling on the rights of others?

did you even read my post??

[hifalutin]

10. Amen.

Especially on Easter Sunday!

[earthside]

16. When U.S. Bombs ...

... actually fell on mosques in Iraq five years ago, killing people ... now THAT was an outrage.

Nobody got hurt ,,, just reminded in Chicago.

[truedelphi]

101. And it was about time. Even God was trying to tell us something yesterday

He seemed to think we needed a reminder. Even allowing having troop number 4000 to meet him on the sacred day of Easter.

[truebrit71]

64. A "hate crime"....really? How about no..?

:eyes:

[winter999]

93. You don't think this is a hate crime?? So what if these

protesters did the same thing in a Mosque, just change the subject to... "Rights of Women" or "Gays in Iran" or "Kill Schoolchildren in Chechnya" and see how many people call this a hate-crime.

The only people who support this kind of thing were not members of the congregation. I wouldn't put this as a Win for our cause, but rather a Loss.

[The Stranger]

82. Nah bullshit. The War is the only outrage. Easter Mass is nothing close.

[tpsbmam]

4. What a damn fool thing to do -- crap like this absolutely hurts the cause. n/t

[hifalutin]

11. My thoughts exactly.

It makes us look as bad as 'them' if not worse on this special day.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

5. WHILE THERE IS ANY ATROCITY, NO ONE IS INNOCENT

OR ABOVE THE FRAY.

[Kolesar]

8. They should all pray that Cheney dies before he nukes Iran

We are getting down to the final days...in the "bunker".

[wordpix]

55. Silent compliance

with immoral, illegal acts is not helpful, either

[The Stranger]

83. You got that right.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

6. Unlike the AIDS protests, this is totally whacko

because for the most part, the Catholic church hierarchy is anti-war.

It's so far off the mark that I wonder if it has been done by agents provocateurs to discredit the anti-war movement, sort of like the masked "anarchists" who smashed windows at the WTO conference in Seattle.

[hifalutin]

12. I smell

a rat!

[magellan]

24. Nope

I googled each of the names listed in a post below and finally got a hit on Angela Haban. Read for yourself, she's part of the Chicago Coalition Against War and Racism:

http://lists.ccawr.org/pipermail/ccawrinternal/2007-October.txt

Squirting fake blood on strangers, particularly at an Easter mass, was a stupid thing to do. This is the sort of thing that makes it even more difficult for legitimate concerns to be heard.

[Tesha]

49. Bullshit.

> Unlike the AIDS protests, this is totally whacko
> because for the most part, the Catholic church
hierarchy is anti-war.

Bullshit.

The Catholic Church hierarchy might be "anti-war", but
when it comes to deciding what candidates and which party
they'll get behind (and they most definitely get behind
candidates and parties and make it clear, nudge-nudge,
wink-wink, to their parishoners), they *INVARIABLY* place
far more emphasis on abortion and gays than on opposition
to war or support for social justice.

Thisis *EXACTLY* the sort of action that should happen
more and more often as this God-damned war persists.

Tesha

[selador]

57. no it isn't

it's a catholic mass for pete's sake.

interrupting religious worship ESPECIALLY on one of the most holy days of the year to protest the war is wrong. no ifs, ands or buts.

[Tesha]

60. Why? Are they some sort of special club with "special rights"?

Sorry, but the Catholic Church in America has been a
powerful force behind Republicanism and Bush, and the
parishoners deserve to be put on notice that their
actions in the voting booth have actual consequences
(and yes, the highest of the hierarchy now considers
the voters' support for the war a sin, even if the
word hasn't trickled down to the Archbishops and
Bishops yet who, as I said, seem to spend all their
fire and brimstone on abortions and gays).

Tesha

[selador]

61. in some ways yes

see: the 1st amendment. free exercise of religion and all

they are also PRIVATE property
i don't care WHAT the bishops, archbishops or whatever spend their time on (although it is especially ironic in this case, since the catholic church is against the iraq war)

it's wrong.

it's really that simple.

it's at least as bad as somebody breaking into your own home and spraying you with fake blood.

at least

[Tesha]

65. First Amendment has *NOTHING* to do with what private citizens can choose to do within a Church.

As I'm sure you realize, the First Amendment has
*NOTHING* to do with what private citizens can
choose to do within a Church.

If they choose to express their opinions using
civil disobedience of assault or trespassing
laws, that's their choice.


> although it is especially ironic in this case,
> since the catholic church is against the iraq war

You keep saying this, but offer no proof that
the church, on average, is preaching against the
war.

Tesha

[redwitch]

73. My church does.

And the priest who said mass on Easter spoke against the war.

[Tesha]

77. I'm glad to hear that (and there's no sarcasm in what I'm saying) (NT)

[selador]

74. yes it does

it's called free exercise of religion

these protesters were attempting to prohibit the free exercise thereof.

and again, THE (capital "T") catholic church is against the war

i have no idea, nor do i care, what this particular church has done for or against.

even if they are 100% for it and been pimpin' it nonstop - i don't care

the protest was still wrong. stand outside the church and protest

to enter the church, trespass, pour fake blood, etc. is not justified. period

[Tesha]

76. Have you ever *READ* The Amendment?

It's short so, here, I'll cite it for you:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the
people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Notice that it only tells you what *CONGRESS* can't do. It has
no bearing at all on non-governmental actors.

Tesha

[selador]

80. i am aware of that.

i'm not saying they are going to get brought up on civil rights charges, because as you correctly point out the violator was not a govt. actor

my point is that govt. DOES consider religion SPECIAL, such that thye specifically reference a protection for it.

and that is the point that i responded to.

in brief, yes - religion IS special.

under our constitution.

[winter999]

99. You use the EXACT same excuse that the KKK used when

they would burn down churches in the black South.

[Tesha]

102. What? That the Constitution means what it means?

If that's an excuse, I'll always use it.

Unfortunately, it's not what I said here but nice
attempt to put words in my mouth.

I agree that crimes were committed here, but I support
people's right to engage in appropriate *CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE*
if they're willing to pay the price for their crimes. And
frankly, if you see squirting fake blood to help end a war
as being in any way similar to burning down a church to drive
out a certain race, I'd suggest you seek mental help.

Tesha

[SoxFan]

70. Tesha, that's simply not true

Yes, a few members of the clergy make noise and get noticed (the bishops in Colorado Springs and St Louis nationally, the Montmigny brothers locally), but Catholic social teaching is the polar opposite of the nonsense that passes for Republican ideology today.

Look at your local voter list. I will bet you a cold frosty at the watering hole of your choice that most of the priests in southern NH are registered as Democrats. Your typical priest comes from a working or middle class Irish, French or Italian background. The GOP politics of greed doesn't resonate with these guys. Some get wrapped around the axle on the abortion issue, but most of the priests that I've known over the years are basically populist Democrats.

And don't get me started on nuns. I had one in high schoopl who ORDERED me to find her a stash of Mondale/Ferraro and John Kerry for Senate buttons so she could distribute them to faculty members at Central Catholic and St Mary's HS in Lawrence!

[Tesha]

75. My local church spends a lot of time and effort...

While I don't know the political leanings of all
ten (?) parishes in my town, I can say for certain
that my biggest local church spends a lot of time
and effort lobbying the local school boards against
comprehensive sex education, supporting pro-life
political causes, and the like.

And our local archbishops (first Bernard Cardinal
Law and now O'Malley) have made it clear that their
leanings are *NOT* towards Democrats (well, unless
they're very young male Democrats and then Law might
have had certain inclinations...)

Tesha

[truedelphi]

91. Sorry but as someone raised Catholic, I have to agree w/ Tesha

Most of the Catholics I knew during the vietnam era were more intent on their pro-GE, Honeywell, Raytheon, Dow Chemical Stock portfolio than on their love of peace.

It would be easy to stop this. But a letter from a group of Bishops is not going to do it.

Saying that Catholics who invest in the war machinery are gonna be excommunicated and not allowed at the communion rail, that might do it.

I mean, what would all those lovely Republican ladies do if they couldn't shimmy up to the alter rail in their newest designer clothes!!

[truedelphi]

90. My firestorm and brimstone is in part that there are NO WOMEN PRIESTS!

What would Mary the mother of Jesus say!

And it is very true - the pro-Bush pro war, Catholic agenda is very very anti-peace.

If the Catholic Bishops wanted to take action, it should be more than a letter, it should be a clearly worded document spelling out that any and all Catholics with investments in GE, Rockwell, Honeywell, Raytheon etc be xcommunicated.

You dine with Bush - you are excommunicated!

Even if you are in the upper levels of the Church!

[AngryOldDem]

86. While I agree with you that the Church should be called out on its hypocrisy....

...Easter Mass was NOT the time, nor the place, to do it.

Sorry.

[truedelphi]

92. Why not? this war means that many in Iraq can no longer celebrate their holidays

In fact, four million Iraqis Have had to leave their country and their congregations behind.

Besides that, the Christians who were living in Iraq have suffered heavily.

This was a very upscale parish in Chicago, and I bet most of the parishioners have investments in their stock portfolios related to war industries.

If the bishop did dine with George the Warmonger, he should be excommunicated! (That is what the older and very traditional values of the Church would be demanding. Too bad those excommunication priniciples are no longer around. Except for women whohave abortions.)

[Occulus]

119. Fine.

Midnight Mass, then.

:)

[MisterP]

114. well, the Powers That Be don't need provocateurs if any protesters are accused of being the same

and thus muffled and muzzled by the pressure of "not looking immoderate." Stanislaw Lem called this procrustics in Eden: the people monitor themselves. Just like the gun nuts who keep an eye out on everyone around them.

[Arctic Dave]

9. Why not at mass?

How many people have been KILLED during their religious service in the ME. So sorry these people inconvienced the people celebrating mass. If people are so pissed about what happened they should get off their asses and actively participate in trying to end this occupation. If the Father is truly caring for his fellow man he should be ripping * a new asshole at every service.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Some questions:

1. How do you know that many of the parishioners are NOT already anti-war and participating in anti-war activities?

2. If you're trying to persuade people instead of just being obnoxious, why not picket or leaflet outside?

I still smell agents provocateurs.

[pegleg]

26. Makes no sense and discriminates against Catholics

[Tesha]

122. Were these protesters not Catholics themselves? At what church should they protest? (NT)

[winter999]

96. You miss the point. Instead of endearing these people to

our cause, it has only estranged them. So much for winning hearts and minds. This did more damage than help.

[tomreedtoon]

19. Maybe not acceptable, but understandable.

There doesn't seem to be any end to the war, and it doesn't look like any candidate of any party is going to end it soon after the election anyway. Yes, to us rational people, it is possible...but some people in our country are at the breaking point. If I had lost a loved one in this war, especially under stupid conditions, I'm not sure I wouldn't go crazy.

I'm not defending them; it was stupid, if for no other reason than it's an inappropriate target. Most churches are not supporting the continuance of the war, even if they're not actively anti-war. The protest would have mattered more if it was at a McCain fundraiser or a Bush appearance. Or for that matter, outside a garden party at Nancy Pelosi's mansion.

But...you folks had better gird your loins. I think you're going to see a lot more of these inappropriate and misaimed protests throughout the rest of this year. There's a lot of pissed-off and powerless people who will take to extreme measures.

[defendandprotect]

20. Church teachings do more to "scare" little kids --- !!!!

[anti-hate]

72. Church teachings do more to "scare" little kids --- !!!!

AMEN ! ! ! I still have emotional scars !

[defendandprotect]

87. Recovering Catholic here --- and I got out at 12 years of age --- !!!

I hear regularly from my younger sisters how much it frightened them --- !!!

I had a 350 pound Catholic nun in one class --- and another completely bats lay teacher
who told us about how they tortured martyrs day after day, every day!!!!

Geez . . . !!!!

[seriousstan]

22. Here are the fools....

http://bp2.blogger.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/R-cnWcRIf9I/AAAAAAAAMTE/xukDhVHYD-s/s200/ryane+ziemba.JPG
Ryane Ziemba
http://bp2.blogger.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/R-ck9cRIf4I/AAAAAAAAMSc/FYUH6F_kZec/s200/donte+smith.JPG
Donte Smith
http://bp1.blogger.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/R-clWMRIf5I/AAAAAAAAMSk/ayu5Jkh_uqM/s200/ephron+ramirez.JPG
Ephron Ramirez, Jr.
http://bp0.blogger.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/R-cl98RIf6I/AAAAAAAAMSs/FEr5VUtQo_M/s200/angela+haban.JPG
Angela Haban
http://bp0.blogger.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/R-cmh8RIf7I/AAAAAAAAMS0/2T8HMHPgasU/s200/mercedes+phinaih.JPG
Mercedes Phinaih
http://bp2.blogger.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/R-cm9cRIf8I/AAAAAAAAMS8/fSnaCmA-Hi8/s200/regan+maher.JPG
Regan Maher

[winter999]

97. Where's Rachel's picture?

[seriousstan]

103. Rachel who?

Chicago police identified the six arrested as: Donte D. Smith, 18, of Chicago; Ephran Ramirez Jr., 22, of Chicago; Ryne Ziemba, 25, of Chicago; Mercedes Phinaih, 18, of Bloomington; Regan Maher, 25, of Chicago; and Angela Haban, 20, of Prospect Heights.

All except Smith received $25,000 bail. Smith, who spent time in prison for illegally entering a U.S. military installation, had his bond set at $35,000, prosectors said.

[dailykoff]

23. You know every kid in there dug it.

Okay maybe not, but if I was a kid I would have, unless I got squirted. Mass isn't terribly exciting.

[Radical Activist]

25. "Catholic Schoolgirls Against the War"

Also the name of my favorite porn video.
:)

[selador]

27. Iraq war protesters disrupt Chicago Mass

Source: yahoo, guardian UK

are you KIDDING me? simply amazing. interrupting an easter mass, and squirting fale blood on parishioners?!?!?!?




CHICAGO - Six Iraq war protesters disrupted an Easter Mass on Sunday, shouting and squirting fake blood on themselves and parishioners in a packed auditorium.

Three men and three women startled the crowd during Cardinal Francis George's homily, yelling "Even the Pope calls for peace" as they were removed from the Mass by security guards and ushers.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080324/ap_on_re_us/iraq_protest_mass

No link yet.

[Whoa_Nelly]

28. You still have time to change your post headline per LBN posting rules

Thread headline should read:
Iraq war protesters disrupt Chicago Mass

[selador]

31. doing it now thx. nt

[Warpy]

29. Yeah, that was tacky

enough to have been a false flag deal.

Whether or not it was is moot. It's still wrong to squirt bloody looking liquid on folks in church.

Now, if they'd done it at some sort of GOP rally, that would have been very different.

[TheWraith]

30. Don't automatically assume that because it was tasteless it was a conspiracy

The anti-war movement has plenty of stupid and tasteless people--in fact, it by its nature tends to attract them.

[mallard]

43. The pro-war 'movement' ...

... also seems to have plenty of fools full of themselves (nevermind the war profiteering) as well.

[Warpy]

59. Look up "moot."

Thank you.

[TML]

32. It was wrong

but is it a felony? That's what they're being charged with.

[leftofcool]

34. Yep assault is a felony

even if you squirt fake blood on someone. And there were children present.

[selador]

35. you are wrong

while penal codes vary state to state, the assault charges in this incident were MISDEMEANOR not felonious

the felony charges were in regards to the property damage.

in most jurisdictions, most forms of simple assault are misdemeanors fwiw. as was the case in this incident

[leftofcool]

36. We shall see

If any children were assaulted with paint of any kind or fake blood, there will be other charges filed. I don't think this is over yet

[selador]

38. great

im just speaking facts

the OP stated the assault charges were felonies (false) and that assault charges are usually felonies (also false)

the assault charges in THIS instance were charged as misdemeanors, because it was simple assault

they could be charged with something else in the future.

my statement was simply to correct falsehoods from somebody who failed to actually read the article for content, and as to their false statement about assault being a felony charge. it GENERALLY isn't, although again penal codes vary

in this case, the charge was battery.

my state has no such criminal charge as "battery". some states do.

regardless, it was misdemeanor

[leftofcool]

37. I should also add

our little grand daughter was in that church. She was knocked to the ground. If my daughter in law has her way, there will be felony charges over it.

[selador]

39. i saw that movie

THERE WILL BE BLOOD.

i mean seriously, if there ever was an occasion for somebody to get a punch in the nose DURING mass, it was these protestors.

and no jury would ever find you guilty.

[truedelphi]

41. As someone who watched the people in my Parish ignore the friggin' Vietnam

war for one year after another, all I can say is "Good for the Protesters"

And you know what is truly obscene - this three trillion dollar war is why these children will probably go to bed hungry for year after year in the near future.

That is the real obscenity, along with the death and the death and the death, and the refugees and the total horror of Iraq - not the fake blood.

[bluestateguy]

33. The Catholic Church has always been against the war

Nitwits.

[caraher]

40. I watched the video on the Chicago Tribune web site

They were certainly aware that the Catholic Church was against the war; that's part of why they chanted "Even the Pope calls for peace!" From what I've read they were targeting the bishop celebrating the mass, who recently met with Lord Pissypants and is apparently one of the most conservative Catholic bishops.

Nevertheless, even if they were targeting the bishop it was a dopey thing to do.

[truedelphi]

42. I tried to return to the Catholic Church some three years ago

Every time the priest asked if there were any people that we should ask to have prayed for, one parishoner after another wanted "Our Troops" to be prayed for.

At one point, after weeks of people wanting the troops to be prayed for, I asked that everyone be involved in the war including the civilians, be prayed for, and I felt like the congregation wanted me to leave.

The Catholic Chur ch is VERY VERY conservative. Or maybe it's jsut that the churches close to me were suburban in nature.

[CatholicEdHead]

63. Some parishes are more conservative than others

Of course the more moderate to liberal ones are becoming fewer and fewer each day. :( Most of the new crop of priests follow lockstep to the rules and there is not much else.

[Posteritatis]

44. It's one of those "no fact can convince me" things with some people

I'm pretty sure there's folks who won't be satisfied until the Pope places every country in the coalition under interdict until they get out. (Which, I admit, would be kind of awesome, but it ain't gonna happen.)

Basically, admitting the church was against the war from the start would come too close to implying it's on the right side on one issue or another to a few people, and they aren't going to be willing to accept that.

[Kolesar]

46. The church spent their efforts to stop Kerry when they should have stopped the war

Those bishops who excommunicated Kerry could not have proceeded without the nod of Pope JP2. And Ratzenberger/Pope Benedict was part of it.

[Posteritatis]

106. Excommunicated?

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0405749.htm

I thought not. But thanks for proving my point.

And the Pope isn't the sole person who determines excommunication. Hell, for several offenses within the church the clergy doesn't have to get involved; it's automatic.

[Kolesar]

111. And what point was it that you were trying to prove, Posteritatis?

[truedelphi]

94. A little old letter from the Bishops denouncing the war means nothing

A woman who is a practicing Catholic faces excommunication should she have an abortion.

Yet the majority of Catholic adults I grew up with (Vietnam era) who owned stock had their stock portfolios heavily packed with military might industrials.

How abt a letter from the Bishops saying if you invest in war industries, you are excommunciated.

It's wrong to kill one six week old fetus, but okay to enable your government to kill tens of thousands of human beings??

[SoxFan]

108. Thank you!

Finally, someone who gets it. The fact that the Catholic Church opposed the Iraq War from the start and is on the progressive side of issues ranging from debt relief to foreign aid to immigration reform gets in the way of the Catholic-bashing narrative.

[Tesha]

50. It's a shame SO FEW CATHOLICS know that.

Church-going Catholics are a very reliable Republican
voting bloc.

Tesha

[Tesha]

48. Good. More actions like this are needed. (NT)

[spoony]

117. Ok, send me your address and I'll throw blood on you.

[Tesha]

123. I'm already out there protesting the war; what are *YOU* doing? (NT)

[spoony]

130. I just told you, I'll throw blood on you for being American

It makes just as much sense as condemning all Catholics.

[Tesha]

134. It's okay -- you can admit you're doing nothing. We're friends here. (NT)

[ContraBass Black]

47. That sounds counter-productive.

Particularly the squirting of fake blood onto non-participants.

[pleah]

51. Security guards in church?

WTF?!

[SoxFan]

67. Not unusual

This took place at a Cathedral. Cathedrals, particularly those in major archdioceses such as Chicago, NYC, Boston, and LA, are often the target of organized protesters and freelance whackdoodles during Easter and Christmas services. Even in my home diocese (Manchester, NH), there is sometimes a paid police detail out front to handle potential disruptions.

[Ordr]

52. Immature assholes.

n/t

[Dogmudgeon]

54. The next thing you know, they'll be scourging the moneylenders out of the churches.

Turning over tables, kicking usurer ass, making a scene ...

Think of the children!

--p!
The children loved it.
And half of the congregants and three-quarters of the clergy.

[SoxFan]

69. They picked the wrong target

The Catholic Church was outspoken in its opposition to the Iraq War from the very begining. There are plenty of more consrvative denominations that didn't voice their opposition, but anti-Catholicism is a trendy form of bigotry that appeals to a certain pseudohip set.

[Radical Activist]

85. No, the Catholic Church didn't.

The Pope did, but many of its leaders and members in America did not speak out. If this group gets more Catholics to change their support for Bush and the war then they've done something positive.

[SoxFan]

100. The facts are the facts

Bishop Wilton Gregory, Chair, US Conference of Catholic Bishops: Letter to President Bush re Iraq
http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/international/bush902.shtml

US Conference of Catholic Bishops: Statement on Iraq
http://www.usccb.org/bishops/iraq.shtml

Statement of Pio Cardinal Laghi, Papal Envoy
http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2003/03-051.shtml

Bishop John H. Ricard, Diocese of Pensacola-Tallahassee, statement on torture of Iraqi prisoners
http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/international/torturestm.shtml

Bishop Thomas Wenski, Diocese of Orlando, on Iraq transition
http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/international/iraqstatement0106.shtml

Bishop Joseph Fiorenza, Diocese of Galveston-Houston, on Iraq policy
http://www.usccb.org/bishops/iraqfio.shtml

[Radical Activist]

107. How about the fact that so many Catholics still voted for Bush?

Those pronouncements look good on paper but obviously they didn't creep down to the local level where as more congregations are told to base their vote on abortion than the war. If these protesters can make it sink in with people that they violate their church by supporting the war then they're doing a good thing. The protests I went to had clergy from several religions, but I've yet to see a Catholic Priest speak at one in my area. Why aren't Catholic Priests present and wearing their collar at EVERY anti-war event? Why is it that I meet Quaker and Unitarian clergy at the anti-war planning meetings but not Catholic Priests? I meet Catholic activists who are involved but not the leaders of their own parish.

[Tesha]

121. The Church "reined in" socially-active priests...

Remember the Berrigan brothers, Philip and Daniel? They
were Catholic priests opposed tothe Viet name war and the
church eventually told them to sit down and shut up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Berrigan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Berrigan


Same with Robert Drinan, the Massachusetts priest who was
briefly a Congressional rep:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Drinan


Tesha

[AngryAmish]

58. We need to learn from their wisdom

[Ordr]

62. What wisdom?

[coalition_unwilling]

68. Geez, the "kids" in Iraq are getting blown to bits on a dialy basis and you're worried

that the little {American} kids were 'scared'?

[Zynx]

78. Protesting at a church whose officials are against the war doesn't make a whole

lot of sense to me. This would be like me protesting the war in a UW-Madison lecture hall. There's really no point.

[Tesha]

79. Perhaps when the CEO of the Church...

Perhaps when the CEO of the Church gets the message down to the
Executive VPs, VPs, and District Managers it would be pointless
but right now, the executives who run the American division of
The Church still routinely support Republicans and Republican
social positions (like hating abortion and gays) over nasty
liberal positions like being against the war, feeding the poor,
and so on...

Tesha

[Zynx]

81. If that's how you see it, fine.

[truedelphi]

95. Thanks again, T. I'd love to see not a letter but an edict of excommunication

You vote for Bush and his warmongering-ism, you are excommunciated. Also you are ex'ed if you dine with Bush.

The Catholic Church has always struck me with the basest hypocrisy.

And how come they Church still doesn't have women priests?? Could it be that you and I are angrier at the Church than some of the male defendants in this discussion of the Church because their sex is represented in positions of power, while ours isn't?

[Tesha]

120. *THAT* is the sort of thing that would signal they really mean their anti-war stance.

But they seem a lot faster to excommunicate based on "pelvic"
issues (although a priest who f**ks altarboys doesn't seem
to rate being excommunicated either; go figure!).

Tesha

[truedelphi]

127. Until the policy of excommunication extends into the Iraq political arena

it is all so much "lip servce"

A letter from the Bishops condemning the War makes those Bishop's feel good (before their next round of golf)

But it is just hypocrisy.

[Tesha]

135. RE: before their next round of golf

[The Stranger]

84. If the parishioners were worth a shit, they would have joined in on the protest -- all of them.

Together -- making a great statement about the atrocities in Iraq.

[truedelphi]

98. But on Easter! While wearing their glorious designer clothes?? Bought and paid for

With their stock investments from the Military Industrial investments their brokers chose fror them??

Why on Easter??

Hmmm, maybe God had something to say abt it. He seemed to be saying "Why not on Easter!Why not!" And to show us what he meant, the four thousandth troop was killed in the barbaric nation in which we have quagmired our nation's blood and treasure.

[SoxFan]

110. Designer clothes?

You know for a fact what the parishioners wore? How they derive their income?

My parish is a cathedral. We have parishioners who are wealthy business types, sure. But we are also home to the diocesan African Apostolate, which performs outreach to African refugees. On any given Sunday, we have a fair number of Haitians and Dominicans in the pews, as well as plenty of the middle class Irish-American families that have traditionally been the mainstay of the parish.

I think some of the folks who came here from Lagos or Port-au-Prince might be surprised to see themselves characterized as cogs in the military-industrial machine.

Please, enough with the stereotypes and the glib anti-Catholic bigotry.

[truedelphi]

126. I was raised in Chicago. I know the church this happened in

The fact that millionaires in an urban setting can live just a block or two from a newly arrived refugee doesn't make them less wealthy.

In fact, since they are probably employing those people at slave wages, it probably increases their wealth.

On edit - BTW my mother brought me up inside the Catholic Church - where the first thing the nuns taught me was that I shouldn't get too close to my Dad as he was a Protestant and would spend eternity in Limbo.

Such an atmosphere of tolerance - the Holy Catholic Church!!

[ohio2007]

104. maybe if they were worth a shit they would have walked out. as I'm sure many did.

What will happen when they do this in Denver at the DNC ? This trial run in Obama's home town is a scene of what is to come.

Cops will be making overtime pay that week

[spoony]

118. Something about being assaulted makes people defensive

It's crazy, I know, but when maniacs bumrush your holiest celebration and spray fake blood on people, it doesn't inspire them to join the maniacs. I know this comes as a great shock to you and I hope you were sitting down.

[The Stranger]

124. No, unfortunately, I was standing, and you could have knocked me over with a feather.

I mean fake blood? Holy fucking shit! That stuff can fuck you up! I'm glad I wasn't there or I may have fainted from the mayhem and carnage.

Getting sprayed with fake blood is tantamount to TORTURE.

You're right. What was I thinking?

[truedelphi]

128. Something abt the average Catholic of wealth and means

voting Repuglican or for DLC types like Hillary makes young people, who know their future has been sold out from under them, a bit testy too.

It is a spiritual and psychological reality that the longer you hold in your frustration, the worse the assault that will result. I'm glad these young people had the sense to make their protest known in the spirit of the Berrigans.

One of my beliefs abt so many people going postal is that they hold in their frustrations so long, til finally there's a blood bath. With rteal blood.

We pretend to be a "polite society" whith no longer the street fights or bloodied noses in the better neighborhoods. Not that we are a "polite society"

If we were a polite society, the rich would not have raped the middle income class for the past two decades.

Bu that is okay - so what if the Catholic kids I grew up with and who inherited their parent's companies, got themselves Golden Parachutes, declared the companies bankrupt, and allowed those workers' pensions to go into the toilet.

[ohio2007]

105. "Catholic school girls" ? nope, HE doesn't look like a school girl

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=905_1206349074

either does the black guy or the other white guy...the women don't look like schoolgirls either imo ;)

[northernsoul]

129. hint: don't emulate PETA if you want to be taken seriously

This was a really, really bad decision on somebody's part.

[and-justice-for-all]

132. I can't think of anything more selfish than religion..