Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies

[spinbaby]

Source: AP

WESTON, Wis. (AP) — Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday from diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said the family believes in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but she said they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

Read more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gy_FocuLcPyslOqVeaOFan8yo7eQD8VLUSO01

[MNDemNY]

1. Adults can make that choice, for themselves, to make that choice for a child is

IMO murder. I hope to see them prosecuted.

[zanne]

2. Yes, prosecution is in order.

They effectively caused the death of a child they were supposed to be protecting.

[orangerevolution]

4. Careful how you apply that logic

That is sounding like people should be prosecuted for an abortion.

[Burma Jones]

6. No, the victim was a person, a fetus isn't

[orangerevolution]

9. I am just saying

There are some who look at the logic and others that do not.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Serial Mom]

14. What logic? No comparison of a living viable child to cells!

[orangerevolution]

15. I never said they were comparable.

I am talking about the logic behind the idea that it is an adults responsibility to protect a child.

At what point does it go from a clump of cells to a child? I don't know that answer. Medicine can do amazing things with babies born pre-mature.

[Serial Mom]

18. Read your post!

Careful how you apply that logic
That is sounding like people should be prosecuted for an abortion.

And the word is premature, with no hyphen, if you have any knowledge of birth at all!

[orangerevolution]

19. I said it was "sounding like"

and sorry for the hyphen. I am but a simple man who knows his part in the process.

[Serial Mom]

23. Don't bring up abortion on a thread about CHILD ABUSE!

There is no place in this thread about the topic of abortion - so stop your "logic" and your "sounding like" stuff here.

A young innocent girl died because her parents prayed instead of taking care of her medical needs.

[nodehopper]

24. at the point where it's out of the womb n/t

[uppityperson]

54. Is this first picture a child medicine could do amazing things with?

Could "Medicine can do amazing things with babies born pre-mature."




No. But it may have been able to with this person:


And don't give me that "some people logic" stuff.

[fasttense]

64. When the clump of cells is out of the Mother.

That's the point you can call it a baby or a person.

Your logic can work backward too. If you call a clump of cells or fetus a living person, at what point does the egg and sperm become a person? Should a man be sent to jail for wasting his sperm (which could have become a person)? There is biblical precedent for that argument. Should a woman be arrested when she has her period because that clump of cells could contain a fertilized egg? Not every fertilized egg manages to attach to the womb.

Bedsides this is about a school aged girl, allowed to die for her parent's beliefs. Your argument is very weak.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Serial Mom]

8. This was a child who had a very managable sickness!

It is abuse to sit and watch her die! No comparsion!

[calimary]

44. And they're not fanatics or anything. Nah... no way.

:sarcasm:

I'm sorry. I'm probably a little TOO intolerant here, but I just have NO patience for people like this. And it's very hard to find a way to understand this - or them. By all means go pray, okay? But do it WHILE you have the doctors looking at her!!!

[scot]

55. Like anorexics never think they're skinny.

[calimary]

56. Welcome to DU!

I shouldn't be so judgmental here, I realize.

But these cases just burn me up!!!

[bdamomma]

52. exactly, it is a treatable disease, I just don't understand

it, these people do not believe in preventative medicine, sad.

[varkam]

10. Of course there's a major difference between an 11-year-old girl and a fetus.

:hi:

[China_cat]

11. Oh bullshit.

They're talking about a BORN child, not a clump of cells. The parents chose to bring her into the world (I know, there's that nasty concept of choice) and they owed her the same care they would have owed to a dog they adopted from the shelter.

As for that, I agree that adults should have the right to choose non-treatment for themselves and that when the child reaches his/her majority and is considered an adult then the right to choose is his/hers. But you don't have the right to let a child die from lack of care. Sounds more like they were too damned lazy to want to learn how to manage the condition...didn't want to take the time necessary to learn to test blood sugar, give insulin, manage diet.

But then, by their logic, I would have to say yes, god does provide healing...he/she/it gave humans brains to figure these things out and become DOCTORS.

[Scairp]

29. Waaay off the mark

This was a living 11 year old girl, not a fetus in utero. Hardly the same. These parents had an obligation to get her medical attention. She laid there and died and they prayed. What assholes. I do hope the other children are sent away to live with relatives who will get them medical care when they require it.

[uppityperson]

53. Oh bullshit. Search is instructive.

[crim son]

75. You are getting flack for this statement but I agree.

Certainly it's a stretch, but not the sort of stretch that rabid anti-abortionists wouldn't be willing to make.

[hyphenate]

46. I don't know whether it could be called

a "murder" per se, but negligent homicide or negligent manslaughter I'm sure could be made a case for.

[MNDemNY]

48. Patato-potato

[hyphenate]

49. .

:)

[awoke_in_2003]

66. You forgot the "e"

:)

[PittPoliSci]

3. assholes. sadists.

they sat their and watched their daughter die and did nothing about it. a hope a lengthy stay in prison is in order.

[Red Zelda]

5. These religious sadists will call it god's will

Insane. In the membrane.

[awoke_in_2003]

12. Maybe one day

we, as a species, will finally give up the belief in imaginary friends that will magically cure us or let us die as "his" pleasure.

On edit, for those that believe: Do you really think that if the Jesus existed he would have time to worry about 1 insignificant person on 1 insignificant planet in the far reaches of an insignificant galaxy?

[superconnected]

16. Why would anyone who believed answer you?

You just called their deity "jebus". Your treatment of them ranks up there with the people who ridicule and persecute non-believers.

I don't like to see ignorance and abuse (because they don't think like you do) on either side. The term ignorance used here refers directly to the dali-lamas explanation of intolerance, which is very applicable here.

Hence I call it out.

[awoke_in_2003]

25. You are correct...

(my Homer popped out). I edited for proper spelling. But my original premise will be kept- the sooner we stop depending on mystical beings to save us, the better off we will be.

[Thothmes]

36. then we can rely on the government to save us?

[Ian David]

61. We can rely upon ourselves and on We The People. n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

65. No, we can rely

on medical knowledge to save us. Diabetes is not that hard to keep in control, as long as you mind your diet and take your insulin. Just because they didn't have insulin in Jesus' day doesn't mean we shouldn't use it now. These people who use religion to deny medical care ain't right in the head, and probably have no problem taking advantage of other modern conveniences.

[LanternWaste]

31. Yes.

"time to worry about 1 insignificant person on 1 insignificant planet in the far reaches of an insignificant galaxy?"

Yes.

[JerseygirlCT]

40. Yes, I do.

To God, not a one of us is insignificant.

The question is when we as a species will realize that not one of us is insignifant.

[awoke_in_2003]

67. One is significant

only because humanity demands it. If we, as a society, started deeming that some are insignificant then eventually we would start seeing horrors like the Holocaust on a regular basis. But, on the grand cosmic scale, we are not individually significant. Thinking this is the only important planet in the universe is kind of xenophobic. Just because we haven't proven sentient life elsewhere in the universe doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Odds are against it.

[JerseygirlCT]

68. Did I say anywhere that I believed we are the ONLY

significant beings?

Believing that God finds each of us important in no way negates the possibility that there are others God finds important, too. When limits don't exist, that's entirely possible.

I agree; the odds are strong that sentient life exists elsewhere (just not in the White House).

[awoke_in_2003]

70. "(just not in the White House)."

touche' :)

[sinkingfeeling]

17. My dog has been diabetic for 4 years. I test her blood and give her insulin 3 times a day.

One might think a 'parent' would show as much concern for their child.

[harmonicon]

20. murderers

These people should be locked up, and if ever allowed in public again, they should be fixed like animals so that they may never reproduce. Possibly a good punishment on top of that would be to never allow them any medical treatment.

[JerseygirlCT]

21. I don't know that this is the case here specifically

But I've often noted that it's interesting that the same people who feel they have the right to deny their child necessary medical care based on their religious beliefs are often the same people who feel it's their business whether a woman chooses to have an abortion or not.

[readmoreoften]

60. Actually it makes perfect sense. God expects you never to intervene with 'his' children. However...

What I don't understand is why they feed their children. If God can magically cure their illnesses, why can't he magically take away their hunger? Why do they clothe them? Clothes are man-made. Medicine is man-made. Come to think of it, there's even natural medicine. If all they care about is "life" and God does the rest, why not just leave them on the porch like a plant and let God work his magic?

Or, they could just take care of their children and do everything to protect them and help them survive... :shrug:

[Bo]

22. MORE NUTJOBS FOR JESUS

........What is wrong with these people.....throw them in JAIL NOW

[Akoto]

26. How tragic. Prompt treatment for this usually results in full recovery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetic_ketoacidosis#Treatment

[Serial Mom]

27. And she wouldn't had to have been treated for this, if her diabetes was treated!

[KamaAina]

28. The mom's name is Leilani Neumann? Oh noes!

She most likely has, as we say, Hawai'i ties, Leilani not exactly being a common name elsewhere. :(

[GoddessOfGuinness]

35. Nut cases come in all flavors.

It's a human thing, thank goodness.

[mainer]

38. Unless she was military born in Hawaii

But then, there are many people in Hawaii who are Mormons or 7th Day Adventists.

[LanternWaste]

30. It would appear that these parents didn't fully understand

It would appear that these parents didn't fully understand that sometimes when we pray, the answer is no, and that there are times in which it strengthens us when attempting to stand on our own feet (and the feet of a few good doctors and nurses) rather than relying on His.

[JerseygirlCT]

41. The rowboat story

Short version: people caught in a flood, crying out to God to save them. Someone comes by with a boat and offers to help them in, but they refuse, because God will save them.

When they meet God, they ask God why? Why didn't you save us?

I sent the boat, didn't I?

God doesn't ask that we turn our backs on our brains or human ingenuity.

[AdHocSolver]

58. This story came to mind as soon as I read the OP.

There is no inconsistency in praying for help and having the prayer answered by receiving that help through a person, in this case, a doctor.

Their refusing medical help for the child shows a lack of understanding of faith in God, and is indicative of a belief in magic and idolatry. A truly religious person would have taken the child to a doctor, and pray that the doctor would have the proper knowledge to heal the child.

One can believe that healing comes from God and still seek medical treatment when needed. These people denied the possibility that God would see fit to work through a medically trained person.

The parents' attitude was one of extreme hubris. It is unfortunate that the child died when medical treatment exists that could have alleviated her condition.

[Wizard777]

32. I wonder what a study like they do with medicines would reveal about prayer?

Some medicine before they are even released. They know that medicine will kill 100 or 1,000 people out of 100,000 or 1,000,000 people that take it. Does prayer kill that many? If it does it could still be approved by teh FDA just like the medicines. The pharmco's don't even say that it will kill you or cause death anymore. Now they say it can cause a "fatal event."

Also for those who think these parents should be charged with a crime. If a child is taking medicine that causes them to have a "fatal event." Should they be charged with a crime also?

[darue]

51. it's been done. very extensive study on prayer. it has zero effect, even seemed slightly to harm

http://www.google.com/search?q=study+on+prayer+medical+outcomes

[readmoreoften]

62. Yes, if a pharmaceutical company gives a diabetic insulin that kills them when they need it then it

is manslaughter and gross incompetence.

This child died because she was not given INSULIN, not some experimental drug. It's the parents fault. 100%. They watched as their child died just the same as if she'd cut her finger on a steak knife and they watched her bleed to death over the course of days because they wouldn't let her use a bandaid. Their other children should be taken away and they should be imprisoned.

And to answer your question: yes. If a pharmaceutical company puts dangerous drugs on the market, the people who made those decisions should be charged with a crime.

[vinylsolution]

33. And the right wingnuts say Islam is a religion fixated by death....

The life and health of their own child meant less to them than placating a fictional, invisible cloud being. I hope these people rot in a freezing jail cell forever.

The fundamentalists here are far more dangerous than any overseas. But our glorious corporate media will never tell us a simple truth that.

[Ellen Forradalom]

57. Tell me about it

The New York Times Magazine ran an alarmist piece about madrassas, yet it treated equally extremist Christian homeschooling fundies as a kind of curiosity, nothing more.

[Javaman]

34. The bent logic of the religious nuts...

If girl dies, it's gods will. If girl lives, it's a miracle.

[Taverner]

37. Yup

Religion is a delusion on a grand scale

[hyphenate]

47. I just wanted to say

the Bush looks like he's got constipation in that picture. I had to chuckle, even though this is a serious topic.

[awoke_in_2003]

69. " Bush looks like he's got constipation"

well, he is full of shit.

[Ian David]

63. If she floats, she's a witch. If she dies, she was innocent. n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

39. they've prosecuted Christian Scientists for negligent homicide before. n/t

[goodgd_yall]

42. Poor dear

All that suffering for the sake of a parent's delusions.

[krabigirl]

43. Yikes! what is wrong with people??!

[hyphenate]

45. WTF?

>>>>>The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said the family believes in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but she said they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.<<<<<

Yeah, a lot of fundies say that, while they're watching the 700 Club, listening to Rush, and opening their bibles to some obscure passage about hate and hating.

They don't have to belong to an "organized" religion--they hear it every day from other sources than a preacher. Perhaps a preacher would be more compassionate, though I somehow doubt it.

My ex-friend claimed that she, too, didn't belong to an "organized" religion, only to a "bible study" group. Yuppers.

[darue]

50. charge them with MURDER and WHY didn't the court remove that child from their custody?

damn these evil fucking religious freaks

[onager]

59. Time for the Robert Heinlein quote again...

As spoken by Lazarus Long in Time Enough For Love:

The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery.

Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

71. As a parent of a child with diabetes

I can't imagine watching my child die a slow death in which s/he is feeling more and more miserable each day. I have guilt over waiting 3 days to take our son to the hospital when he was heading into diabetic ketoacidosis. The solution is simple - insulin. It's not like diabetes is a rare disease that has no known cure or known treatment plan. How can you not take a sick child to a doctor?

[LeftHander]

72. Hate to say it....but they need to be arrested for neglect....

Laws are not selectivly applied based on religion.

[LynneSin]

73. I'm wondering if they tried that because they could not afford doctors

:shrug:

[Mothers]

74. Blaming Prayers, more to the story then meets the eye..

What is missing from this story of the 11 year old girl dying of undiagnosed diabetes is the fact that public schools requires "yearly" check ups before being promoted to the next grade. So before we blame the parents for Medical Neglect while they are mourning the loss of their child, we might want to see what the school records indicated. In addition the Police Chief seemed to be reading off the actual condition sheet, such as vomiting, nausea, excessive thirst, I didn't see those symptoms being given by the mother that the girl was "suffering" from.

Before Religion is blamed for this girls death and the parents are tried in the media, we should ensure that this girls death is not utilized to force medical treatment on children or anyone living in a free society. Medical treatments such as antidepressant induced suicide that is forced onto children at an alarming rate never seems to be linked with the actual responsible party, the psychiatric industry. We hear that the child "stop taking their antidepressants", yet that is not what the black box warning suicide warning says on the box of antidepressants, these children are starting, on, and withdrawing from antidepressants. Let's collect the evidence.

So, this tragic death should undergo a due process that is ethical and ensure clear on honest debate on the rights we hold as individuals and parents while ensure that parents or any caregiver does not medically neglect their children. It is not about her faith, it is about her knowledge of what should noticed about her daughter's health and what decisions she made.