Agents at polygamist ranch checking 'safety of children'

[eppur_se_muova]

Source: CNN

(CNN) -- Texas authorities are investigating "the safety of children" at a ranch occupied by about 400 followers of polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs, officials said Friday.

Authorities have sealed off the 1,900-acre ranch near Eldorado and no one is allowed to enter or leave, officials with Child Protective Services and the Department of Public Safety said.

The people living at the ranch are cooperating, authorities said.

Escorted by police, social workers entered the compound in south central Texas at 8 p.m. Thursday after receiving "a referral," said Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/04/texas.ranch/index.html

[MADem]

1. Checking on the welfare of Rhonda Volmer, perhaps?

Critics of the sect say it arranges marriages for girls as young as 13, and that competition for brides may be reduced through exiling young men. If male followers are excommunicated, the critics claim, their wives and children can be reassigned to someone else.

[SammyWinstonJack]

65. Mad Love!

:evilgrin:

[Warren Stupidity]

2. These people have the right to live their lives in peace.

I realize that there is a grey area where the state also needs to protect the interests of minors, but sealing off a private community to conduct what appears to be a modern day witch hunt is an outrage.

[bahrbearian]

3. Sure

Jeffs is now being held in the Mohave County Jail in Kingman, Arizona, where he will be tried on charges of being an accomplice to incest and sex with minors.

In November ,Jeffs was sentenced to 10 years in jail after being convicted of two charges of accomplice to rape.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. So we are supporting guilt by association and collective punishment?

Jeffs is not there - he is in jail. The police have sealed off the town and barred all outsiders from access - such as for example the press.

[kestrel91316]

10. The adults in the community are in a criminal conspiracy to abuse the children.

That's all this is about. You don't get to use your religion as a cover for criminal activity anymore. Not is the US.

You like polygamy so much, give up your citizenship and go live in the Middle East. Convert to Islam, and have your multiple wifies that you can abuse to your heart's content.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. You know this how?

It is not a question of how you or I 'like' polygamy. I don't like monogamy much either. It really isn't any of my business. Your attitude is highly intolerant.

[kestrel91316]

13. EXCUSE me for not tolerating child sexual abuse and rape.

Warren Jeffs and ALL his followers believe in "marrying" pre-teen girls off ILLEGALLY to obvious pedophiles. And they also believe in abandoning teenage boys as "excess" males to eliminate competition.

I know this because I haven't been living in a frickin'cave all these years. I pay attention to the news. I have read more than a few books about fundie Mormons and polygamy. And I happen to be a descendant of Mormon polygamists.

Yes, I am intolerant of violent crimes against and abandonment of children. But you go ahead and support what they are doing. I'm sure they'd appreciate you joining them.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. You've assumed guilt.

But I am done. Have fun. Enjoy the next waco.

[superconnected]

24. Assumed guilt? Did you read the verdicts of molestation and rape the

juries have already reached over Jeffs' cases.

[BadgerLaw2010]

77. What assumed guilt? Guilt was found re: child rape.

[girl gone mad]

88. You sound really uninformed about this cult. n/t

[Chovexani]

108. Er, because they are guilty.

Like another poster said, you seem to be really uninformed about this particular sect.

I live in Arizona and thus have been following this case, and what is practiced in Colorado City is not consensual by any means. Women are brainwashed from birth to accept that polygyny is their only way to get into heaven, and they are married off at 13 and 14. Young men are kicked out of the community (Google "Lost Boys" some time).

I am polyamorous and see nothing inherently wrong with polygamy in the most basic definition, or even with the way it works with the Hendersons on Big Love (aside from the patriarchal nature of the set up, but, again--consenting adults, no one's there who doesn't want to be, no abuse, none of my business). But there is a huge difference between that and what is practiced in Colorado City. It has been well-documented what goes on there and you should read up on it before getting into a knee-jerk defense of the town.

[1monster]

16. On second thought, nevermind. I need to verify my info...

[High Plains]

56. Does any relationship other than monogamy constitute abuse?

Just curious. Is there something inherently abusive about polygamy? Or polyandry?

It's not my thing, but I am inclined to let other people live their lives the way they want to.

[Crunchy Frog]

75. When it's nonconsensual, and/or involves minors?

:shrug:

[Chovexani]

106. Not everyone in nonmonogamous relationships is a fundie Mormon, thanks.

There is a huge difference between polyamory or even "plural marriage" as practiced by certain Mormons and the kind of coercive polygyny you see in these kind of fundie Mormon cults.

Please don't conflate the two.

[Crunchy Frog]

111. I don't think I was conflating anything.

I simply feel that any sexual relationship that is nonconsenual or that involves adults having sex with minors qualifies as abusive. If you wish to disagree with me on that count, please feel free to, but please don't accuse me of saying something I didn't.

[Chovexani]

112. It sounded that way.

I apologize. It just gets really, really tiring to have to correct people's thinking that nonmonogamy inherently means abuse of women and children. Every single thread on it without fail turns into this.

[JerseygirlCT]

125. Exactly. nt

[InkAddict]

85. No, don't think so. necessarily, but consider that the manifestations of abuse

due to the irregular habits of the cohabitors might not take place for decades.

Consider: A man and a woman marry and he goes off to war. The wife meets and befriends a woman who comes from an abusive home. The woman invites her friend into the marital apartment because she is generous, because she is lonely, or because it eases finances, whatever, while her spouse is away at war. The husband comes home, but the invitee remains in the household for over 50 years, partaking of all family-oriented tasks, sharing the household duties including childcare of the one son of the marriage who was born within three years of the husband's return. The invitee does not date, never improves her education, nor forms any other meaningful personal relationships outside of that habitation. Even after being diagnosed (perhaps wrongly) and hospitalized for a serious infectious disease, she remains. In the later years, she pays no rent. The four even take long vacations together and occupy a king-double (to save expenses, of course, with the juvenile son present). The invitee and woman's husband continue to share the home upon the wife's death. Upon the invitee's death, (she outlasted the husband's wife) the husband suggests that the invitee be buried on top of his wife in the family's plot and even suggests that he is entitled to items from the invitee's estate and personal effects.

Although the marital couple were religious, devoting their attention to their church, the invitee only rarely attended church services with the marital couple, preferring home worship/study with a book by Billy Graham, never seeking a congregation for herself, no problem there, right?

The son of that marriage vows never to be an only child (after having what amounts to two very overprotective mothers), and notwithstanding the fact that he was never unsatisfied or bothered by the history he was given nor tipped-off to something more scandalous by his high-school friends' forthright comments, nor heard any others' remarks about this long-term arrangement in which he lived, nevertheless he and his wife have had a rough time coping with marital issues related to intimacy, roles, and communication, probably not really unlike many couples, but perhaps understandable with that history. They'll perhaps overcome these issues one day, they're still working on it.

How far can agape (altruistic love) be stretched without disturbing the (sexual)status of a marital unit or without an inquiry to law enforcement? Just because it seems happy, doesn't always make it so. Just because it's peaceful, doesn't mean there's not a BIG problem that any of the parties should probably get professional counseling to resolve. It's fairly easy to detect physical abuse if one is alert to its signs, but emotional abuse can be subtle and buried in the subconscious, inhibiting free expression and a special relationship of "two hearts" or extending emotional attachments far beyond correctness. It's a tough call.

[Kitty Herder]

86. High Plains, I'm not sure you understand. This is not consensual.

That's the problem.

First, these girls are brainwashed from birth. Second, they're married off to older men while they are still minors. We can only speculate how frequently this is against their will. I would guess more often than not.

The freedom of individual women and girls to control their own bodies and their own lives has to trump religion every time.

If consenting adults choose to live in polygamous relationships, I don't think that's any business of mine or the state's. But that's not what we're talking about here.

[1monster]

14. This community is well known for dumping it male children, as young as age 13, on to the streets

to ensure less competition for the affections of the young girs....

The dumping of the male children is illegal and totally immoral, let alone their reasons for doing the dumping.

I say INVETIGATE the welfare of the children in that community.

I'm just not sure I'd leave it up to Children's Portection Services. Many of those organizations don't have very good reputations themselves, however well-intentioned they may be.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. If there are specific crimes then by all means prosecute.

Sealing off a community and barring outside observers to conduct some sort of blanket investigation is a gross violation of these people's rights. See the 4th amendment.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Quaint idea those ancients had.

[1monster]

19. Perhaps you don't understand that if there is an allegation or accusastion of child abuse

made, Children's Protection Services are required, by law, to investigage. If that allegation covers a whole community, they are still required to investigate.

These agencies exist to ensure the safety and welfare of minor children.

Frankly, I don't understand what has taken CPS so long in investigaing this community. I've read horror stories from women and girls who got away and from the boys who have been dumped on the street so they don't compete with the older men in the community. If the family members of the dumped boys try to help, they, especially the men, can also be "excommunicated" and thrown out of the town, losing their homes and their families...because their women folk will be reallocated to other men in the community.

There is a town near the polygamist Mormon community that is awash in teenage boys who were dumped the way some evil people dump puppies and kittens. They do what they can to help the boys, but it is a huge problem.

[Ilsa]

20. Sounds like there is probable cause to me.

If there are abandoned children in town that have ratted out the effing bastard, then I think they should be checking on these people.

There are women who have escaped from compounds like this and reported the brainwashing and lack of choice for teenage girls in not marrying the chief rooster.

[Gerald21]

28. If I'm understanding this right...

So suppose I had a friend who lives in the same community as me and believes and practices the same religion. And suppose that someone filed an accusation against him of child abuse. Should merely my association with this person and sharing of religious beliefs be sufficient grounds for the government to come in and kidnap my children? We’ve just seen it happen.

[Kitty Herder]

87. This is not a situation similar to the hypothetical you are describing, Gerald21.

This is a religious community that conspires to commit these crimes as part of their religious belief and their commitment to following the words of their "prophet." It's not a case of a few bad apples.

And there are few "outsiders" living among them to report these crimes. People are scared to even visit Colorado City and Hilldale, due to the oft-repeated warning: "Be careful. They still believe in blood atonement down there."

[Gerald21]

29. If I'm understanding this right...

Ok, suppose I have a friend who lives in the same community as me and believes and practices the same religion. And suppose that someone filed an accusation against him of child abuse. Should merely my association with this person and sharing of religious beliefs be sufficient grounds for the government to come in and kidnap my children? If it can happen to them...

[mbperrin]

7. Actually, there is no gray area. Polygamy is simply illegal.

And transporting minors across state lines for "marriages" not filed with the state is illegal as well. Does it not seem a bit peculiar that these 12 year olds are being married to 45 year old men while the boys are literally thrown on the streets at the same age?

What part of sexual abuse and abandonment is not clear here?

[Warren Stupidity]

12. The Jeffs case is settled. He is in jail.

Polygamy is not the issue here. Child abuse is. A polygamous lifestyle may equate to child abuse for you, but last time I looked that is not the law.

[tavalon]

71. It's not the polygamy

It's the abuse of children. Consenting adults can and do form alliances of more than two and that's okay, no matter what the state thinks it can say about it.

[mbperrin]

8. As a lifetime Texas resident accustomed to nearly no services,

I can assure you that there must be some lurid accusations indeed to provoke an investigation this size. I have personal knowledge of a case where a 50 year old father was raping his 6 month old daughter daily both vaginally and anally, and it took CPS two years to get on that.

By then, the syphilis had actually permanently damaged the girls' nervous system. She died at age 7 in the custody of this man. She was removed for 2 years and then returned.

So something wild has been reported.

[kestrel91316]

9. Polygamy is a well-known cover for rampant pedophilia, rape,

child abuse, domestic abuse, and welfare fraud. This is no witch hunt. Forcibly isolating your children from society so they don't know the meaning of "sexual abuse" is the name of these people's game. And the womenfolk were raised and abused in the system so they are ignorant of their rights and of what normal behavior is.

[girl gone mad]

90. You have to wonder..

exactly how this small, isolated community, which shuns most outsiders, gets the money to build a massive compound.

[sudopod]

104. Massive amounts of free manual labor.

I really doubt that they hired a unionized contractor and filed all of the proper paperwork with the authorities. ;)

[kestrel91316]

117. Appanently the custom is for ALL the men to have outside paying jobs, and

for them to turn over their ENTIRE paycheck directly to the "church".

[NashVegas]

121. Maybe Some Answers Here

I read this article when it was first published 10 years ago.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9501E2D8123CF932A25751C1A961958260

As for where the money comes from, they boost each other. Got a job needs doing? Call my good friend, Gerry ...

[Redstone]

18. Not a woman, are you? I'm not either, but I'd never make such an ignorant statement.

You're going to call what those people do "a grey area?"

Redtone

[Cerridwen]

26. Please read the post I link below.

These people do not occupy a grey area and this is hardly a witch hunt. If you think Jeffs being behind bars has changed the operation of these towns, of this cult, then you know nothing of this particular "religion". Perhaps the information in this link will serve to correct that.

[Frank Cannon]

27. Well, if you really think so.

Why don't you have a seat over there and talk to me?

[MADem]

84. ..............

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

50. What happened here is a 16 year old was forced to marry a 50 year old

He also impregnated her. The man she was forced to marry had been previously prosecuted in Arizona for another underage marriage. So the police had a pretty good case and a good reason to go in the way they did. My understanding is that the police had warrants to go in and search for the man involved in the underage marriage, his underage wife and baby and any records related to the marriage. It's my understanding the removal of the girls was not planned.

[yardwork]

128. Reports are now saying that she was fifteen when she gave birth.

In Texas it is illegal for children under the age of 16 to get married, even with the consent of their parents.

[MADem]

83. Yeah, pay no attention to the pregnant children in forced marriages to perverts

One of whom telephoned the authorities begging for help.

:eyes:

Incredible.

[muryan]

93. Thats a pretty misinformed statement

Theres a laundry list of crimes that have been documented, im glad they are finally taking some action and helping those kids.

[sudopod]

103. They have a right to worship as they please.

They don't have the right to marry off 13 year old girls to 60 year old men, beat them if they disagree, and tell they that they'll go to hell if they leave.

[JerseygirlCT]

124. No they don't. Not when they're imprisoning and abusing

minors. Their rights are over right then.

The young male children are tossed out on their own. The female children are enslaved in sexually abusive relationships with much older men. Nowhere in any of that is free will involved. These are minors, and no amount of the adults' religious beliefs balances what they do to these children.

Then we can talk about the virtual enslavement of those female children as they reach adulthood. Again, not much of free will there.

So really we're talking about balancing the so called religious rights of a bunch of sick older men against the women and children they are enslaving or abusing.

Not much of a contest, in my book.

[DCKit]

5. Isn't that what they said before they burned down the Branch Davidian compound...

and killed all the people, women and children included, inside?

Just sayin'

[Warren Stupidity]

6. not 'killed', 'liberated'.

The folks at the waco compound were liberated. We gave them their freedom.

[Ilsa]

21. Why, have the people in this compound shot some CPS employees

or law enforcement officers and barricaded themselves in?

[alarimer]

52. Those people were shot before the fire started.

The blame lies ENTIRELY with Koresh.

[girl gone mad]

91. agreed.

Child rapist Koresh is the sole person responsible for the deaths in Waco.

[emad]

22. Kids have been removed...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,346390,00.html
and
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/04/children-remove.html

[eppur_se_muova]

23. Thanks for update. nt

[eppur_se_muova]

25. UPDATE: "Dozens of children removed from polygamist ranch" (CNN)

ELDORADO, Texas (CNN) -- Authorities say they removed 52 children, ages 6 months to 17 years, from a West Texas ranch occupied by followers of imprisoned polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs.

Eighteen girls have been placed in the temporary custody of the state under a court order, said Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner.

Authorities said they continue to search the 1,900-acre YFZ ranch, and at least one suspect is being sought by police.

Meisner said troopers and child welfare officials arrived at the secluded ranch Thursday evening with arrest and search warrants. They were responding to a report of "physical abuse" and neglect involving a 16-year-old girl. At this point in the investigation, she added, the abuse does not appear to be sexual.

Another Child Protective Services spokesman, Darrell Azar, said the 18 girls were placed in state custody because it appeared that they "had been abused or were at immediate risk of future abuse."
***
more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/04/texas.ranch/index.html

ETA: That last paragraph sure sounds like a presumption of guilt, doesn't it? I mean, as long as no one's died, we just don't know, do we? :sarcasm:

[oberliner]

30. Texas Takes Kids From Polygamist Retreat

Source: AP

ELDORADO, Texas (AP) — Child welfare officials and state troopers Friday removed a busload of children from a secretive religious retreat built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs following a complaint.

The small white bus that drove out of the compound accompanied by state troopers was filled with children being taken away from the retreat, said Marleigh Meisner, spokeswoman for Texas Child Protective Services. She could not immediately say how many.

The bus left the compound filled with what appeared to be mostly girls, dressed in conservative long-sleeve dresses.



Read more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD8VRAS1O0

[Maddy McCall]

31. I used to really keep up with this cult...

but I've not done much reading on it lately.

I'm glad that the children were taken.

[oberliner]

32. Here's some more updated info

ELDORADO, Texas (AP) — Child welfare officials following up on an abuse complaint took custody of 18 girls Friday who lived at a secretive West Texas religious retreat built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs.

A total of 52 girls, ages 6 months to 17 years, were bused away on Friday to be interviewed, but only 18 were immediately taken into state custody, said Texas Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner. No arrests had been made.

Meisner said welfare officials were looking for foster homes for the girls, most of whom have rarely been outside the insular world of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They were being housed for now at a civic center, she said.

"We're dealing with children that aren't accustomed to the outside world, so we're trying to be very sensitive to their needs," Meisner said.

Authorities had interviewed about half the girls since arriving Thursday evening at the remote compound with law enforcers, she said. Interviews were expected to continue over the weekend.

The investigation began with a call alleging physical abuse of a 16-year-old girl living there, Meisner said.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD8VRC1T00

[Maddy McCall]

33. Can you imagine how frightening it is for those girls?

Never to have been outside of their community, totally brainwashed, and now to be placed in homes of "outsiders" that they've been taught to distrust?

I really feel sorry for the children.

Last time I read an article about the El Dorado compound, most of the neighbors didn't mind Jeffs' group being there. They said that as long as they abided the laws and did what they were supposed to do, they didn't mind them.

I bet they are thinking again, now.

This is the compound in Eldorado.

It's HUGE.

[oberliner]

35. It's pretty awful what has been allowed to go on

And apparently is continuing to go on.

[High Plains]

57. They're going to "interview" six-month old babies?

Are there allegations of infant sexual or physical abuse? I haven't heard any.

I know these people are not popular, but we better be very careful about kidnapping dozens of children under color of law.

Near where I live, we have Hutterite and Mennonite communities. They're weird, they wear funny clothes and live in isolated "compounds" (that's what we call farms when we want to make them sound scary). I have no idea of their marriage or sex habits. I also have no interest in intervening in their lives.

[mbperrin]

97. A 16 year old girl made a 911 call to report her life in danger and

sexual and physical abuse of children from the ages of 6 months and up.

She still has not been found in that compound.

Question: Should we just ignore 911 calls?

Other question: If this girl turns up dead and her baby missing or dead, will you concede that there could possibly be some little slight problem worth investigating?

The man they're looking for, and this girl's "husband" is a 50 year old convicted sex offender, by the way.

[NaturalHigh]

36. Same here.

I read "Under The Banner Of Heaven" and did some research about these people, but they seem to be trying to fly under the radar lately.

[JeanGrey]

61. Me, too. Oprah recently did a whole show on this town

full of polygamists.

[LiberalFighter]

34. They should sterilize Warren

[Diclotican]

37. LiberalFighter

LiberalFighter

Or at least put him into a prison, where he, and I am sorry to say, many of the follower of he's ideology deserve to be...

As a member of Jesus Cristi Church of later day saints, I feel troublesome over this sect, because they claim to be the REAL Church, not the offspring when our Church had a change of ideology in the 1890s.. And I am also troubled by the fact that this "Church" of him, are doing the mother Church a lot of harm, when people who don't se the difference believe us to be as his Church...

I know our shurch in our history have being rather stupid. And I know that in some circles, in US the Church have a lot of power, maybe more than they have the right to have..

But, this is NOT the Church I was "falling in love with" and are a member of. And I feel it just horrible that you can close up kids, and never let them experience the world outside of home. This is WRONG in every sense, and I hope this kids, girls as boys now, can get a real life, without been closed up, and never know what lies behind the wall...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language..

ps, No I am not wearing magical underwear.. And have never being doing that either.

[tavalon]

40. It's hard for those of us who aren't Mormons but have chosen nontraditional marriage

It isn't his Mormonism or polygamy that's the problem, it's the incest and the brainwashing that are the problems, but Mormons and polygamists (or polyamorists) who get the bad rap even though 90% of both are very good people.

[JeanGrey]

42. Excuse me please, but polygamy IS the problem. And

always will be.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

43. Your solution is enforced monogamy?

You might want to brush up on your Durkheim
as to the effects of that on women.
Do you also condemn multiple husbands (polygamy)
as practiced in Northern Nepal?

[tavalon]

45. Small world she lives in, eh?

I wonder if I should let her know that Alt.Polycon is going to be in Atlanta this year? Nah, probably just wig her out. :evilgrin:

[tavalon]

46. I think the word you are looking for is polyandry

but yeah, there are flavors of poly all over the world. In fact, monogamy is likely a minority POV in the world. Even here in the U.S., what is practiced is actually serial monogamy and in fact, most cheat. While the folks I hang with (polyamorists) can and occasionally do cheat, there is far less incentive since it's okay to have more than one partner. My poly is unusual even in the poly community in that I have tended to create multipartner households which is different from how many polys do poly.

[girl gone mad]

92. Monogamy is definitely not the minority.

I have nothing against consensual polygamy/polyandry between adults, however, monogamy is by and large the way of the world. The male to female birth rate has remained basically 1:1 throughout recorded history and large scale polygamy tends to destabilize societies, as it's the lower class men who are usually left without a mate.

[aquart]

47. You mean, polyandry?

They don't do that for fun. It's done for practical reasons and I'm guessing a good time is NOT had by all.

I don't condemn it. But I also know they would never have opted for it if circumstances weren't dire..

I realize you present it because you think we'll think it's a situation where the woman is in control. It ain't. You would have done way better presenting some of the marriage customs of Africa. The woman is courted by the man's entire age group, which makes sense, because she can screw anyone in that group unless her man is at war or on a major hunt. An affable system.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

49. polyandry / polygamy in which a woman...

has more than one husband.

Oxford Dictionary.

We are both right, can we leave it at that as I'll not quibble over semantics.

"You mean..."
"It's done..."
"I'm guessing..."
"...I also know..."
"I realize you..."
"...you think..."
"You would have..."

So what is it I'm trying to say, shall I PM you my PW so you can post for me?

[tavalon]

69. Polyamory is definitely women centric

We tend to decide how the geometry will go. It's quite pagan that way (another female centric thing - pagan religion).

[JeanGrey]

62. One husband, one wife. Period. Anything else is abuse of women, sorry.

[tavalon]

68. Oh, yeah, I'm so abused

:eyes:

Aw, JeanGrey, life is much bigger than you know. Get over your bad self, mmmkay?

[JeanGrey]

80. If you are in a plural marriage I feel badly for you. Usually

it is self esteem issues.

[tavalon]

95. Ha! Too funny. I'm going to have to pass that one on to the hubbies.

[kestrel91316]

118. Wow, two hubbies? Hm........I could sort of go for that, lol........

At least all the handyman stuff would always be getting done.......

[tavalon]

70. How is a man and a man together abusive? ;)

Just wondering? Did you mean to get to FreeRepublic and land here instead? I just told one of my hubbies what you said, he said he's going to call J. and let him know. We are having a great laugh at your expense. Thanks for the amusement.

That said, the problem with this cult is the incest and the religious indoctrination. And the fact that it gives perfectly good mormons and polys a black eye in the process.

You, OTOH, are just ignorant. Feel free to get an education. If you really are a Democrat, you need to be better educated about the world around you. Ignorance does not help us. That you come from the land of Zell Miller doesn't give you the right to behave like him.

Democrats are much more tolerant of other peoples way of relating, even if it different from one's own. We don't tolerate abuse but if the others are not being abused, we don't assume their choices are wrong. Consider yourself schooled. I suggest you continue to educated yourself.

[JeanGrey]

81. One of your hubbies? Yes, I'm sure they WERE amused.

How sad.

[tavalon]

96. You're projecting an awful lot of your shit onto my life

I live a self determined wonderful live with family who is wholly supportive of one another. I'm sorry you can't see past your stuff to imagine that it could be radically different from what you would choose and still be a good choice. I don't have a problem with your choices, though I think you've been too sheltered but you certainly seem to have a big issue with my life choices. Anything in your past that might make you feel defensive about the choices I've made?

[Chovexani]

110. Well thank you, Rev. Falwell.

I suppose I'd better inform my girlfriend that she is horribly abused when our boyfriend and I take her to dinner and a movie. And, oh my gods, bowling. BOWLING!

I have seen the light!

[JeanGrey]

116. You're welcome. Somebody has to.

[JeanGrey]

115. Polygamy is illegal, period.

[tavalon]

44. No, it isn't

Just because my family isn't made up of just two adults doesn't make it bad. It works very well, thank you very much.

[JeanGrey]

63. It is illegal and wrong.

[tavalon]

66. You have a very, very small mind

Expand it a little, would you? Your brain is cramped.

[JeanGrey]

79. Bigamy has nothing to do with small minds.

It is degrading to women but wonderful for men.

[tavalon]

94. You don't speak for me, dear

[JeanGrey]

114. Oh I know there are many deluded women out there.

Look at what is going on in Texas.

[Feron]

120. Just because someone's life choices are different..

than something that you would personally choose for yourself doesn't automatically mean that the other person is deluded or wrong. Different strokes for different folks. Furthermore women are intelligent enough to make their own choices without people telling them what choices they should make. Or telling women they are incompetent for choosing a different path in life.

Personally polygamy and polyamory are not for me, however it does work for some people. I have no problem with it as long as the relationships are non-abusive and between consenting adults.

The problem with the FLDS is that it is an abusive cult. It wouldn't be surprising to see adults that grew up in an FLDS compound defend it because it is the only lifestyle they have known. It's like someone growing up in Scientology and believing wholeheartedly that psychiatry is evil or that mental illness is cured by a vitamin and sauna purification.

These people are, in other words, isolated and kept ignorant because isolated and ignorant people are easily controlled. Brainwashing and other mindfucks to keep people in line are often in play as well like in Scientology.

An analogy using monogamy would be choosing a spouse versus being forced to marry a man for tribal/religious/monetary reasons. Having multiple spouses isn't abusive by itself ,but like any relationship arrangement there are abusive cases. Certainly I'm not going to eschew a relationship with a man because of abusive monogamous relationships.

There is a difference even if you choose to not see it.

[JeanGrey]

123. No. Polygamy is ILLEGAL and it is even worse to bring

children into such a cult to marry them off to old men and throw them away if they are boys.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

51. 4% of dads may unknowingly be raising another man's child

"In the UK, around a third of pregnancies are unplanned, and around one in five women in long term relationships has had an affair, with similar figures reported from other developed countries."

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/28971.php

"Rebecca Webster, a counsellor for private paternity testing company DNA Bioscience, who speaks to about 500 men each month about such decisions, said: "We will raise the issue about whether they have thought about the consequences both for them and all those involved.

"Very often they are quite distressed and they want someone to talk to.

"By the time they get the results a lot of people have prepared themselves. But it's a very emotional process, even if the result is the one they wanted."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4137506.stm

Can the above also be blamed on polygamy? Monogamy? Neither? Both?

[JeanGrey]

64. Of course. If you have one husband or one wife and are

faithful, your children are raised by YOU. If you are divorced of course there are step families or never married. Nothing good comes from adultery.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

76. The actions of the naked ape...

indicate that monogamy is not the nature of the beast.
Is it your intention cast yourself as one who would rule
with the iron fist of The Grand Inquisitor in the enforcement
of monogamy?

------------------------------------------------------------
Those who are faithful know only the trivial side of love: it is the faithless who know love's tragedies.
--Oscar Wilde

[JeanGrey]

82. If you wish to see yourself as an ape, feel free.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

98. Typed for your edification,

my typing skills are not great, I went to the trouble hoping for intelligent discourse and that you might be surprised to find Morris is largely in agreement with you.

The Naked Ape
-Desmond Morris
Chapter Two

"A word must be added here on the question of monogamy and polygamy.
The development of the pair-bond, which has occurred in the species as a whole, will naturally favor monogamy, but it does not absolutely demand it. If the violent hunting life results in adult males becoming scarcer than females, there will be tendency for some of the surviving males to form pair-bonds with more than one female. This will then make it possible to increase the breeding rate without setting up dangerous tensions by creating 'spare' females. If the pair-formation process became so totally exclusive that it prevented this, it would be inefficient. This would not be an easy development, however, because of the possessiveness of the females concerned and the dangers of provoking serious sexual rivalries between them. Also working against it would be the basic economic pressures of maintaining the larger family group with all its offspring. A small degree of polygamy could exist, but it would be severely limited. It is interesting that although it still occurs in a number of minor cultures today, all the major societies (which account for the vast majority of the world population of the species) are monogamous. Even in those that permit polygamy, it is not usually practiced by more than a small minority of the males concerned. It is intriguing to speculate as to whether its omission from almost all the larger cultures has, been a major factor in the attainment of their present successful status. We can, at any rate, sum up by saying that, whatever obscure, backward, tribal units are doing today, the mainstream of our species expresses its pair-bonding character in its most extreme for, namely long-term monogamous matings.

This, then, is the naked ape in all its erotic complexity: a highly sexed, pair-forming species with any unique features; a complicated blend of primate ancestry with extensive carnivore modifications. Now, to this we must add the third and final ingredient: modern civilization. The enlarged brain that accompanied the transformation of the simple forest-dweller into a co-operative hunter began to busy itself with technological improvements. The simple tribal dwelling places became great towns and cities. The axe age blossomed into the space age. But what effect did the acquisition of all this gloss and glitter have on the sexual system of the species? Very little seems to be the answer. It has all been to quick, to sudden, for any fundamental biological advances to occur.
Superficially they seem to have occurred, it is true, but this is largely make-believe. Behind the facade of modern city life there is the same old naked ape.
Only the names have been changed: for 'hunting' read 'working', for 'hunting grounds' read 'place of business', for 'home base' read 'house', for 'pair-bond' read 'marriage', for 'mate' read 'wife, and so on.The American studies of contemporary sexual patterns, referred to earlier, have revealed that the physiological and anatomical equipment of the species is still being put to full use. The evidence of prehistoric remnants combined with comparative data from living carnivores and other living primates has given us a picture of how the naked ape must have used this sexual equipment in the distant past and how he must have organized his sex life. The contemporary evidence appears to give much the same basic picture, once one has cleaned away the dark varnish of public moralizing."

[MilesColtrane]

48. The problem is rape/child abuse.

12-14 year old girls in forced, arranged marriages, with all that entails, is heinous enough. When it's supposedly done in the name of god, it's just that more sickening.

[Diclotican]

53. tavalon

tavalon

I am member of the Jesus Cristi Church of later day saints. And I would just say. This is _not_ the same surch I am member of. I know that in some parts of US, where the surch have more power over mind then good is, then it might be some missuses and that is wrong, dead wrong. But mr Warren are not part of OUR Church. Hi, and his follower are member of a branch who was getting out of the church in the 1890s, because of the decision that we don't alove polygamy longer.. This Church who was going out, are using the same books and so on as our Church, but they are in no way a part of Jesus Crista of later day saints. They even have their own President who rule their shurch... So I guess they are on their own in many cases there

I would never have more than 1 wife anyway.. And if it is not bad enough with 2 or 4 wifes, who can be nasty enough when they bound together against the poor man in the house.. Just think about a couple of mother in laws... That is DEFIANT a scary though for a man..:nuke:

No thanks. better to have one wife who you can love, respect and care for the rest of the life then...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[tavalon]

67. I'm quite sad that my wife left

but my two husbands are quite handy around the house. No one makes better egg salad than she did, though.

I'm not actually being facetious. I am a polyamorist.

[Diclotican]

73. tavalon

tavalon

Okay?. Never meet polyamorist before:think: But as they say it a first for everything..

But if it work for you then it is a case between you and your two husbands I guess... But good that they are quite handy around the house. Many woman who claim that their better half are not excactly that.. I know my foster father was far from handyman. Not as in the home then:P. My foster mother have allways been more good when it come to doing thing in the house. But he was doing his shears then.. Even if he sometimes made a mess about everything...

But then, where I came from, it is not used to be a place of the world where two wifes, or husbands is allowed. I think it is against our penal code to have more than one wife or one husband:think:

I for one, would not have more than one wife. It is best, in my view to have one wife, and one wife alone...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[Chovexani]

109. Amen

There is a lot of ignorance out there on poly relationships, and it doesn't help that the only version most people get to see is these crazy ass fundie Mormon cults.

[LiberalFighter]

60. Too many different churches have too much power...

more than they have a right to have.

And too many of their leaders exert too much influence where they have no right. They want in many cases to be the leader of everyone and have the power over everyone.

People like Warren probably wear more than magical underwear.

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. Where are the boys?

Sent away no doubt. Less competition.

[blondeatlast]

59. That's precisely what they do. Northern Arizona communities

have a very tough time handling the problem of teenage boys "dumped" by the cult.

[kestrel91316]

119. "Where are the boys?"...........well, you get one guess......

The ranch IS 1700 acres, after all. That's a heck of a lot of dirt.

[elshiva]

39. Jesus wept.

Sad, sad perversion of the Mormon faith... :(

[DeSwiss]

41. I hope they have an opportunity to heal....

- http://www.polygamy.org/publications.shtml">Tapestry Against Polygamy

[bitchkitty]

54. I think he's scum

but not because he practices polygamy, which should be legal. Practicing polygamy with young teenagers is another thing entirely though...

[marshall]

55. Where's Janet Reno when we need her?

Why do these nuts congregate in Texas?

[Rage for Order]

58. Hopefully they can manage to do this without burning everything to the ground. nt/t

[Endangered Specie]

72. you know, I'm suprised so many DUers take the side of the Branch Dividians

lest we forget they were a pack of ultra-right-wing religious whackos...

did I log onto DU or FR?

[LeftyMom]

74. People like to root for the underdog. Even when the underdogs are armed, murderous, child molesting,

apocalyptic religious crazies, apparently.

Either that or they've got real short memories. One or the other.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

78. The comfort of denial.

Looking at the big picture a major part of the problem is inarguably religion, religion that historically has done far more harm than good. Perhaps a retroactive "3 strikes law" is in order.
Were such a law enacted in timely fashion religion would have ceased to exist centuries ago to the benefit of countless thousands of victims of pedophiles.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pedophiles tend to have a rigid set of double standards and are frequently very religious.
--Pamela Kulbarsh, RN, Crisis Intervention Contributor
http://www.officer.com/web/online/Investigation/Are-Child-Molesters-Mentally-Ill/18$31904

[Rage for Order]

99. So you were okay with how Waco ended?

Who exactly did the Branch-Davidians murder prior to their compound being stormed by armed ATF agents? I think Koresh and some of his followers should have been arrested and tried, not burned alive. I'm sure he left the compound sometimes to go shopping, travel, or whatever else, and they could have just as easily apprehended him when he was not at the compound. There is something very wrong with the government laying siege to a house full of women and children, keeping all media, except for that which is approved by the gov't, cordoned a mile away (can't have any witnesses, can we?). The gov't then got tired of waiting and decided to burn the compound to the ground. They could have just waited them out - the Waco folks would have run out of food eventually, unless they had some kind of huge indoor greenhouse that the gov't forgot to tell us about.

[mbperrin]

100. Not in Texas, are you?

Koresh NEVER left the compound.

Davidians fired first.

Media must have been there, where else have the pictures come from?

Koresh started the fires himself and retreated to a buried school bus where he planned to emerge three days later as the resurrected Christ. Apparently, he never did any underground cooking in Boy Scouts. He roasted himself.

No, I'm not OK with how it turned out. When the first abuse claims came out, and before there was time to create an armed compound, he should have been arrested and tried. Timely intervention would have prevented the mass suicide/murder committed by Koresh in Waco.

Or maybe you think that the government passed out the Kool Aid and JIm Jones was also just misunderstood.

This time, intervention appears to be much more timely, and hopefully, results will be better.

Although the 16 year old who made the 911 call has still not been found, neither dead nor alive. That is worrisome, and I hope she is found alive and well and soon.

[Rage for Order]

101. I am now, but I wasn't when this occurred

Yes, Koresh and his group fired at the ATF agents storming the compound. They were certainly in the wrong in that regard, but how many times have we heard of "no-knock" warrants going terribly wrong? Also, there are some questions as to the cause of the fire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh#Raid_and_siege

The cause of the fire was later alleged by the "Danforth Report," a report commissioned by The Special Counsel, to be the deliberate actions of some of the Branch Davidians inside the building.<21> However this hypothesis is disputed in the documentary "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," which argues that the fire was deliberately set when the FBI fired an incendiary device into the building after loading the building with CS gas, which is highly flammable.

The Danforth Report claims that those who died were unable, or unwilling, to flee and that Steve Schneider, Koresh's right-hand man, probably shot Koresh and killed himself with the same gun. "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" claims that FBI sharpshooters fired on, and killed, many Branch Davidians who attempted to flee the flames. Testimony by the few Branch Davidians who did successfully flee the fire supports this claim. Autopsy records indicate that at least 20 Branch Davidians were shot, including 5 children. The Danforth Report concluded that the adults who died of gunshot wounds shot themselves after shooting the children.


Of course, both sides say it was the other's fault. You should watch the movie referenced above if you ever have the opportunity. It does raise some very interesting questions. You stated that Koresh roasted himself - the gov't says he died from a gunshot. The media were allowed initially, but I distinctly remember law enforcement telling the media that they had to relocate a mile down the road "for their own safety", of course.

[mbperrin]

102. Hi and thanks for the reply!

I have seen the particular movie in question, and it was interesting.

My hometown is Odessa, and this is where the whole Branch Davidian thing got started with the Rodens, and some people from here went all the way with it to Waco and after.

You are absolutely right about Koresh dying from a gunshot wound. I confused myself with some info from someone else who had knowledge of Koresh's plan to rise three days later from the underground bunker.

It's always good to get facts out in front. Thanks for corrections and additions.

The one thing I don't want in Eldorado is something out of control, and that is why I am glad that an early investigation is taking place, apparently well-ordered due to the local sheriff there.

I'm really wanting that 16 year old girl and her baby to be ok.

Thanks again!

[khaos]

122. how do we know the 16 year old girl is real?

[LanternWaste]

130. What evidence do we have she's not real?

What evidence do we have she's not real? :shrug:

[LanternWaste]

113. We too seem to have our own unique brand of...

It seems you're right. We (on DU) too seem to have our own unique brand of ideologically rigid and dogmatic social libertarians who, if given the opportunity, would most likely defend Jim Jones and the Guyana Massacre.

Any law enforcement done by government = bad. Any targets of that same law enforcement = good, even if it includes pedophilia, rape, or mass suicides...

:shrug:

[Kitty Herder]

89. If you doubt the safety of these children is in jeopardy, check out Babyland, an graveyard of

unmarked, infant graves.

http://www.counterpunch.org/mazur03022005.html

[eppur_se_muova]

105. Wow. Thanks for that link. nt

[Kitty Herder]

107. Your welcome. When I first read that article, it chilled me to bone.

I used to live in Southern Utah, very near Hilldale where this unofficial baby cemetary is located.

[Cerridwen]

126. Polygamy video up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3121963&mesg_id=3121963

[Shakespeare]

127. Latest report: 401 children now taken into protective custody.

And they're not finished searching the compound yet. :wow:

[JeanGrey]

129. On the news last night they said many of the young girls

had babies or were pregnant. It was so sad to see them walking in that line like lemmings all with long hair long sleeves and dresses to the ground, thank god they'll get out of there.....