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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:10 PM
Original message
Boeing to outsource F-18 components to India
Source: Economic Times India

28 Apr, 2008, 0515 hrs IST

NEW DELHI: US civil and defence aerospace major Boeing has decided to outsource two critical components of the F-18 Super Hornet combat aircraft to India and the order for one of them could go to the Tatas.

Lt Gen Jeffrey B. Kohler, Boeing vice president for international strategy, told the India Strategic defence magazine that as a “responsible world player in aerospace, Boeing wanted a long-term, trusted partnership with India and that the orders for these two components are being placed now irrespective of whether or not the company wins the tender for 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA).”

Both the components are made with sophisticated composite materials, appropriate technology for which will be transferred to India. Details are to be given later.

Mr Kohler said that one of these two fighter jet components could be outsourced to the Tatas, with which it had earlier tied up a $500 million agreement for titanium floor beams for the hot-selling new generation Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft that Air India has also ordered.


Read more: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/PoliticsNation/Boeing_to_outsource_F-18_components_to_India/articleshow/2989194.cms
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. bastards
ECONOMIC TREASON
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jasmine621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. And this has nothing to do with NAFTA but NAFTA and Clinton will be
blamed for it. "Outsourcing" by supposedly patriotic, capatalistic US corporations and off shore businesses and accounts and tax shelters is a much more devastating blow to our economy than NAFTA has been or is. But, "stuck on stupid" folks just don't get it. Nor do they want to.
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is beginning to look like M&M Enterprises of Catch 22
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. let' outsource the fighter pilots too, India pilots will work for much less $$$ nt
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InkAddict Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
36. But, but, but,,, (per the PBS Nimitz reality series Part 1)
our "creme de la creme" pilots are livin' the dream, flying the Lamborghini's of the sky, and acting like chronologically aged-out juveniles with the "coolest" joysticks on the Playstation block. For Pete's sake, they went out to practice, and one of the pilot's video re-play failed to record. He thought it was FUNNY that he couldn't prove his "heroics" of the day to the other pilot.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
38. Why just pilots...
Edited on Mon Apr-28-08 08:58 AM by old mark
...let's buy all our military personnel from India. We could go to war forever without the political consequences of having Americans die in a pointless war, and they would work cheaper than Americans. This idea worked great for the Brits for many years.
Sounds like win-win! Somebody call Bush - or McClain.


mark

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Lt Gen Jeffrey B. Kohler, Boeing vice president" - talk about a military-industrial complex..
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
32. Kinda says it all about how much democracy and the will of the
people have to do with government these days.
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Old Codger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. seems to me
That boeing was just crying in their beer over losing a contract overseas.... Kinda a little two-faced if you ask me
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. The jobs AND the technology are going.
Wondering if the taxpayers have paid for the development of any of that technology.

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CONN Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Well they get tax breaks for jobs, but then jobs do not materialize..
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/2007/12/17/big_boeing_tax_breaks_delivered_few_jobs/1897/

SEATTLE, Dec. 17 (UPI) -- Huge tax breaks Washington state gave Boeing Co. to have the 787 Dreamliner aircraft built there created fewer jobs than promised, a published report said.

But the tax breaks also were less than originally touted, The Seattle Times said.

The incentives were projected in 2003 to slash the state aerospace industry's taxes by $3.2 billion over two decades.

But based on amounts claimed so far, the figure could be $500 million to $900 million smaller, the newspaper said.

In 2003, state officials forecast the 787 would add 3,600 supplier jobs. But four years later, new suppliers in Washington employ about 200 people, with half of them in unskilled positions.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Nice....
:sarcasm:
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crimsonblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
23. Considering the planes cost upwards of $100 mil a piece, I'd say so.
And we wonder why and how foreign countries steal our technology....
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JPZenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. part of deal to gey sales from India?
Edited on Sun Apr-27-08 09:17 PM by JPZenger
The words "critical components scare me." However, it is common today for a defense contractor in one country to agree to have components manufactured in a second country in order to get sales of that item from the second country.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. I blame the Pentagon, the WH and the Congress for this in our face national disgrace.
Send washington a message and VOTE OUT EVERY SINGLE INCUMBENT this November!
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. oh no...... tata......good luck!
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. K & R
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. Well, outsourcing has worked well for them on the Dreamliner...
:sarcasm:
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I see your Union avatar - take a look at my post in #16
:nopity:
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
35. Ah, yes...the TATA deal...
Amazing how that gets ignored, isn't it?
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. Doya think the savings from outsourcing makes the F-18 cheaper?
Edited on Sun Apr-27-08 10:02 PM by Hobarticus
Or does that extra profit margin just go back into Boeing's pocket?

Oh, I crack myself up...
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. Oh brilliant!
there is enough skilled engineers her in the US to come up with this technology... but Bill Gates says that there isn't. So we will ship the technology over to India, who will then outsource the manufacturing to China (so Tata can boast even larger profits). The when someone here in the US cries foul and tries to pull the development back on shore... Our asses are fuckin' history.

You'd think a Lt. General would have a strategy for actually defending this nation.
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. Tatas - Hillary's buddies - Check out what happened in NY with Hillary's help!
Our corporations are giving our middle-class the finger and I think if Obama gets in he would make it mandatory that these decision have to go through a process and if the US can offer them a tax break or whatever it takes to keep them here then we must do it!!!!!!

Here is an article on Tata and Hillary:

Read Full Story

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/30/2857/

Clinton woos the outsourcers feared by U.S. workers

The senator's efforts to bring an Indian firm to Buffalo, which yielded 'about 10' jobs, illustrates the bind she faces.

By Peter Wallsten, Times Staff Writer
July 30, 2007

BUFFALO, N.Y. — To many labor unions and high-tech workers, the Indian giant Tata Consultancy Services is a serious threat — a company that has helped move U.S. jobs to India while sending thousands of foreign workers on temporary visas to the United States.

So when Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) came to this struggling city to announce some good news, her choice of partners was something of a surprise.

Joining Tata Consultancy's chief executive at a downtown hotel, Clinton announced that the company would open a software development office in Buffalo and form a research partnership with a local university. Tata told a newspaper that it might hire as many as 200 people.

The 2003 announcement had clear benefits for the senator and the company: Tata received good press, and Clinton burnished her credentials as a champion for New York's depressed upstate region.

But less noticed was how the event signaled that Clinton, who portrays herself as a fighter for American workers, had aligned herself with Indian American business leaders and Indian companies feared by the labor movement.

Now, as Clinton runs for president, that signal is echoing loudly.

Clinton is successfully wooing wealthy Indian Americans, many of them business leaders with close ties to their native country and an interest in protecting outsourcing laws and expanding access to worker visas. Her campaign has held three fundraisers in the Indian American community recently, one of which raised close to $3 million, its sponsor told an Indian news organization.

But in Buffalo, the fruits of the Tata deal have been hard to find. The company, which called the arrangement Clinton's "brainchild," says "about 10" employees work here. Tata says most of the new employees were hired from around Buffalo. It declines to say whether any of the new jobs are held by foreigners, who make up 90% of Tata's 10,000-employee workforce in the United States.

As for the research deal with the state university that Clinton announced, school administrators say that three attempts to win government grants with Tata for health-oriented research were unsuccessful and that no projects are imminent.

The Tata deal underscores Clinton's bind as she attempts to lead a Democratic Party that is turning away from the free-trade policies of her husband's administration in the 1990s and is becoming more skeptical of trade deals and temporary-worker visas.

Like many businesses and economists, Clinton says that the United States benefits by admitting high-tech workers from abroad. She backs proposals to increase the number of temporary visas for skilled foreigners.

The Tata deal shows the difficulty of proving concrete benefits to U.S. workers from the visa system. Since 2003, the year its Buffalo office opened, Tata and its affiliates have sought permission to bring more than 1,600 foreign high-tech workers to the state, including at least 495 to the upstate region and 45 to Buffalo, according to government data. Tata has brought additional workers into the country under a second visa program whose numbers have not been disclosed.

Some U.S. worker organizations say Clinton cannot claim to support American workers if she is also helping Indian outsourcing companies and proposing more worker visas.

"It's just two-faced," said John Miano, founder of the Programmers Guild, one of several high-tech worker organizations that have sprung up as outsourcing has expanded. "We see her undermining U.S. workers and helping the offshoring business, and then she comes back to the U.S. and says, 'I'm concerned about your pain.' "

Among Indian American activists, Clinton's work with Tata has been seen as a sign of her independence from outsourcing skeptics within her party — and a break from the Democrats' 2004 presidential nominee, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, who lambasted "Benedict Arnold CEOs" for shipping jobs overseas.

The main lobbying organization for the Indian-American community, USINPAC, cites the Tata deal as one of Clinton's top three achievements as a senator — and evidence of a turnabout, in its view, from her past criticism of outsourcing. "Even though she was against outsourcing at the beginning of her political career," the USINPAC website says, "she has since changed her position and now maintains that offshoring brings as much economic value to the United States as to the country where services are outsourced, especially India."

Clinton regularly reinforces that view. When CNN anchorman Lou Dobbs, an outsourcing critic, pressed her on the Tata deal in 2004, Clinton responded: "Well, of course I know that they outsource jobs, that they've actually brought jobs to Buffalo. They've created 10 jobs in Buffalo and have told me and the Buffalo community that they intend to be a source of new jobs in the area, because, you know, outsourcing does work both ways."

This month, she made a similar case to a conference of Indian workers in Silicon Valley, saying she supported an expansion of visas. "Foreign skilled workers contribute greatly to our U.S. technological development," she told the group via satellite.

Clinton acknowledged the strains on American workers and called for more job-training programs. But her words seemed to distance her from those who would end outsourcing. Increased U.S. job losses, she said, could cause Americans to "seek more protection against what they view as unfair competition."

The Tata deal, she said in a 2005 stop in India, exemplified the cooperation that will "help to prevent the kind of negative feelings that could be stirred up" by critics of the global marketplace. She called those critics "short-sighted."

(snip)

Buffalo's population has fallen by half over 50 years, as automotive and other manufacturing jobs moved overseas. Resentment is so high that voters last year nearly dumped a longtime Republican congressman for an anti-trade Democrat, who had made outsourcing his biggest issue.

For Clinton, a newcomer to New York when she ran for the Senate in 2000, the upstate region was considered a challenge — a traditionally conservative area that did not participate in the economic prosperity during her husband's presidency. So, as a candidate, she pledged to use tax credits and other incentives to create 200,000 jobs in the region.

In 2002, Clinton took a group of Indian business executives on a tour of the region and to a meeting with administrators from the state university in Buffalo. The group included Tata Consultancy Services, an information technology consulting firm that is part of Tata Group, a conglomerate with interests in electricity, steel, aviation, cars and hotels.

(snip)

But critics say that Tata has done more to undercut workers in upstate New York than it has helped — and that Clinton is wrong to argue that exposing U.S. workers to competition from foreign workers is helping both groups.

Since Tata arrived in Buffalo, "the reality is that it probably created many more jobs for workers overseas and displaced lots of American workers," said Ronil Hira, a public policy professor at the Rochester Institute of Technology and a prominent critic of outsourcing.

A report released by two senators said that Tata was one of the biggest users of foreign-worker visas in the United States, employing more than 7,900 visa recipients last year. The large number of visas suggests that companies are circumventing laws designed to protect American workers, Sens. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) and Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) said in their report.

Clinton and many other lawmakers have called for cracking down on visa abuse. At the same time, she has backed an increase in the number of foreigners admitted to the U.S. each year under the main type of visa for high-tech workers. The cap is 65,000 each year; companies are seeking 115,000.

And her campaign continues to telegraph — sometimes in front of Indian American audiences — that she sees benefits to a globalized world.

Three weeks ago, her husband drew applause at a conference of 14,000 Indian Americans in Washington as he extolled the benefits of "open borders, easy travel, easy immigration." He said the outsourcing debate bothered him because it failed to acknowledge the contributions of Indians who settled in the U.S. The same day, he headlined a fundraiser at the conference for his wife's campaign.

Labor union leaders, who haven't decided whom to endorse for president, say they have watched the Tata deal and Clinton's statements on outsourcing.

"People do want to see from her some recognition that the outsourcing of these service jobs isn't a good thing for the U.S. economy," said Thea M. Lee, policy director of the AFL-CIO. "It's a little bit of an open question where Sen. Clinton's going to end up on outsourcing."

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton announced in March 2003 that the high-tech firm Tata Consultancy Services of India was opening an office in Buffalo, N.Y., and would bring jobs to the area. Clinton later said the deal showed that outsourcing firms could create jobs both in their home countries and in the United States. Tata says it has created about 10 jobs in Buffalo and, since 2003, hired 50 local workers. But over that same period, Tata sought H-1B visa certifications to import nearly 500 foreign computer programmers and other specialists to upstate New York.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Hillary. Sucks.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. Been harping on that for months
I've been called a racist and every other horrible name for trying to point out the Clintons' connections to overseas businesses. They aren't going to do a thing about outsourcing, they believe in it.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. I've been too and have gotten the same reaction. n/t
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #16
44. I was hired out of Buffalo so I love hearing the "only 10 jobs" myth.
It's repeated often and it's awesome. There are more than 10 people in my batch, and yes there are many batches.

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Here's Another Myth....
Nielsen layoffs, tax breaks anger Oldsmar officials (TATA)

Published Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:39 PM

OLDSMAR — City Council members expressed outrage Tuesday over the Nielsen Co.'s plans to eliminate 110 positions at their Oldsmar operation after accepting government money to create jobs.

"To think they have the gall to take taxpayers' money and then lay people off!" said council member Suzanne Vale. "I am so upset."

"It's just incomprehensible to me," agreed council member Janice Miller.

They were responding to news that Nielsen is outsourcing work to India-based Tata Consultancy Services after receiving at least $3.1-million in state and local subsidies mainly to create jobs in Oldsmar.

Tata, one of the world's largest providers of consulting and outsourcing services, has brought in its own workers from India.


And Nielsen, formerly known as Nielsen Media Research, says they have plans to restructure further.

The topic was raised by City Council members at the end of their regular Tuesday meeting.

Some members urged their colleagues to stay calm. Mayor Jim Ronecker reminded the council that outsourcing is a national trend.

"We can't tell them how to run their business," he said.

"No, but we can call a thief a thief when they take the taxpayers' money," said council member Greg Rublee.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/article458509.ece

:hi:
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. My last assignment was with Nielson
They wanted me for a much longer one but I turned it down because Nielson is a terrible place to work IMHO. TCS has been relatively good to me. They said my job is mine as long as I want it but I'm leaving anyway. I've helped a few American friends join TCS in Buffalo and Jacksonville. They're hiring in Ohio right now.

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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. The dumbing down of America ...

If these creeps are going to drive down high-tech wages to unskilled wages, what is the motivation to study your ass off?

Kid's are not dumb and you cannot hide this from them forever.

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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. When the world turn on the US for the actions of the bu$h regime...
All they will have to do is cut off the supply of defense parts that our companies are so stupidly outsourcing.

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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. This is reason enough
to deny them the 'tender'.

Our military budget policy ought to be buy US only - if we can't make it here, build what it takes to make it here, then make it here.

They're wondering why the economy is in the shitter - well, after years of this BS, getting our business and our factories shipped overseas, and even our own government can't procure stuff that's made in the USA, what can you expect?
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
20. The State Of My Country Disgusts Me.
Bought and sold by the lowest bidder.

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cstanleytech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
21. Well considering
that I read the navy is switching to the F-35 Lightning II to replace their current F-18s is this a real security risk or is the gripe mainly about the potential loss of some jobs here in this country?
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
24. Ok, who of the anguished posters on this thread drives a car not assembled in the US?
Because that says a lot more than any post on a forum.

"Personal outsourcing" is what I call it.

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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Invalid argument.
Almost NOTHING recently made in the US gets any kind of reasonable gas mileage. And any US cars old enough to get good gas mileage are going to cost more to repair than they're worth.

Just because American car companies have sat on their asses for the past 20 years DOES NOT mean we can't criticize outsourcing.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Sorry, but it is a reasonable question? There are plenty of US make
cars that get good gas mileage.

Perhaps our outsourcing outrage should start at home!
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. I think the real question is, what's an American car?
Edited on Mon Apr-28-08 05:20 AM by Solon
If you buy a Mitsubishi built in a plant in California that has UAW workers in it, is that an American car? What about the latest Ford built in Mexico?

Outsourcing has a specific connotation, and it isn't buying from foreign companies, but buying from American based companies that outsourced manufacturing somewhere else. When you buy the latest fashions at Macy's, most are American branded, but not American made. Cars aren't any different.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
47. That also is a good point... Chrysler will be shlepping Cherys soon
Edited on Mon Apr-28-08 12:02 PM by JCMach1
and none the better for it... :hi:
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
54. So it's fine to buy foreign-made brands and displace US brands?
Edited on Mon Apr-28-08 04:46 PM by Psephos
Because that doesn't fit the (i.e., your) definition of outsourcing? Are you by any chance an attorney?

The jobs are gone either way. And it's because of the choices people make on what to buy.

I just shake my head when I hear so much "concern" about UAW jobs here, and so much vilification of the companies they work for. Yet, these economic geniuses bristle when someone points out the obvious result of snubbing UAW-assembled products. And I mean snubbing not only as a purchase choice, but also as a cultural meme. There are a lot of "progressives" who bash US-made cars almost as quickly as they bash the douchebag in the White House. That's beyond careless. It's malicious.

Meanwhile, downthread, we suddenly have discovered that cars assembled in the US have a lot of global content. Well, duh. But apparently, somehow the F-18 is thought to have been global-content free up to this point. Ignorance at this level makes discussion a low-yield proposition at best.

Geopolitically, India is seen as a counterbalance to China. That's a major reason some new subcontracting is heading to India. India is also far more likely to buy military goods from US makers when some of the manufacturing of those goods takes place within its borders. Economics and politics are not always (or even often) a zero-sum game, but you couldn't prove it by this thread.

So, bottom line, the "logical" conclusion of many here is that it's a great idea when a foreign car makers establishes a plant here, but an evil idea when a domestic manufacturer puts up a plant in India. Yeah, that kind of thinking will go over big when it comes to re-establishing a good international image of the US. Maybe we should just re-enact the Smoot-Hawley tariffs and be done with it. A proven solution. :eyes:

To answer your question, I have no problem with a California Mitsubishi or an Ohio Honda or a North Carolina BMW if it's assembled with UAW labor. I'm in favor of competition, it keeps everyone on their toes. No one should buy a bad car just because it was made here. Buy a good one; there are plenty. My Saturn gets 38mph and runs like a Swiss watch.


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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. The problem is that the jobs aren't "gone" either way....
Edited on Mon Apr-28-08 05:16 PM by Solon
For Japanese automakers, its cheaper to make the cars they are going to sell in the United States in the United States, so they actually create jobs for many Americans as a result. They did it because it was a way to save money, rather than shipping the cars across the Pacific Ocean.

Outsourcing has always been defined, if I remember right, as domestic manufacturers who displace domestic workers by moving plants overseas and then shipping the finished products back into the nation they are based in. So when Toyota, Honda, or Mitsubishi open a plant here, that isn't outsourcing, because they don't intend to send the cars back to Japan for Japanese customers, but are selling them where they are manufactured. This is actually a net positive, it keeps much of the money and investment in the "host nation" so to speak, while at the same time sending some money back to Japan as well, helping its economy. Not to mention it doesn't involve laying off existing workers so no worker, in either Japan or the United States is displaced because of this practice.

However, this is quite different from outsourcing, where workers are displaced domestically so save a company some money on labor costs. To give an example of garment manufacturers, most open up plants in "free trade zones" in host countries where they pay few if any taxes, pay below a livable wage to workers in these factories, and 100% of production is exported. This actually leads to localized depression in many communities around the world, these free trade zones can take up huge tracts of land in areas that are not taxed, so local communities can't fund improvements in services or infrastructure for their citizens. Many of the workers in these plants aren't even local, but are shipped in from other communities hundreds of miles away, and most are underage girls, because of the belief that they are more compliant than obedient than boys or older men and women. In addition, because they are not local, and employment rates are so low, they have to help support their families, so they ship much of the money they do make to the communities they come from, rather than the communities they work in.

I'm not saying this happens in India, indeed, India was, for years, quite protectionist, and only relatively recently allowed for extensive foreign investment in the nation. As a result, some of their domestic industries were shored up, and they developed a small, but professional, middle class that actually is paid a living wage by foreign companies. They play by the same playbook as Taiwan, and South Korea in this, they shored up their own, domestic industries, first, then allowed for free trade when their own nation's companies, at least some, could compete. In most of the rest of the world, however, that hasn't happened. Generally they haven't had time to recover from debts accrued through non-democratic regimes, and because of that debt were forced to accept terms that didn't allow for the shoring up of domestic industries.

China, of course, is a special case in that, in order for their companies to compete, the government itself actually funds many of these companies, and heavily subsidizes many industries.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. "who of the anguished posters on this thread drives a car not assembled in the US?"
Not I. This thread has little to do with "personal outsourcing" but I rather see it as a National Security Issue.

This has nothing to do with NAFTA.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #24
45. A lot of them use foreign parts as well.
My Civic was assembled in East Liberty Ohio with at least 65% American parts. I wouldn't buy a car that wasn't assembled in the US with more than 50% US parts. I've read that the Toyota is the most "American" vehicle there is in terms of assembly, parts, design, testing, etc.

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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Toyota/Honda are good examples ...

Toyota and Honda are good examples of healthy trade relationships. They assemble most of their US production right here because it is cheaper. We are about even as far as labor and health standards. This is a good relationship and provides healthy (but not overwhelming) competition for domestic companies who sat on their ass and did nothing for quite a long time.

The issue with China and India is different. The outsourcing is not chasing innovation. It's chasing the cheapest possible labor pool.

Mittal recently bought a steel mill in NW Indiana. This is good business. They bought the plant so they could produce the steel closest to their customers in the US. There is a healthy exchange.

The exchange with China is NOT healthy. It's lots of labor gouging, that's it. There is even talk now that the factories on the East Coast of China are OVERPRICED. Apparantly, the cost cutting they've done so far isn't enough. They want to move farther inland to find the next group of destitute people.

We outsourced to Mexico, and those jobs were outsourced to Eastern China. Now the Eastern Chinese jobs are being outsourced to central China. No doubt that movement will render those people destitute. How long will it be till we are poor enough to bring the jobs back home?

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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. They have union workers too
I don't know for sure but there was a DUer who said he is a union worker at the East Liberty Honda plant and that they pay well with great benefits.

It's expensive to ship cars. The cars Ford sells in India are made in India. Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, and many others have plants in India for the cars they sell in India.
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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
51. Most Japanese Cars ...

Most Japanese cars are assembled in the USA.
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darue Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
28. the pentagon's having another rope sale n/t
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
30. Will they insult India like they insulted France ?
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
37. we need that plane to protect Washington from the growing army of unemployed & foreclosed
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. LOL
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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
40. Corporations are the MORTAL Enemy of Decmocracy and The United States
Like the vampires they are, they will suck the National lifeblood until the Nation Dies and then they will move out.

This is Treason. There will be nothing left by November to build upon
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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
41. screw boeing and the junk they flew in on
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bif Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
42. Let's outsource domestic wiretapping while we're at it.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
43. Can't wait to hear about someone in the navy trying to get parts for
a fighter and having to deal with a customer service rep in New Delhi.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-28-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
48. There should be a clause in all U.S. government contracts that work
must be done in this country by American workers using American made parts. It might force a little onshoring.
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