Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Online librarian from S.F. wins his fight with the FBI

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-07-08 11:47 PM
Original message
Online librarian from S.F. wins his fight with the FBI
Source: San Francisco Chronicle

Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 7, 2008

(05-07) 18:03 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- Brewster Kahle, who runs an online library in San Francisco, was appalled when his volunteer lawyers told him in November that the FBI was demanding records of all communications with one of his patrons as part of an investigation of "international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities."

The FBI document, called a national security letter, told Kahle he could be prosecuted if he discussed the subject with anyone but his lawyers, and allowed him to speak with his attorneys only in person. Kahle said his Internet Archive, which has 500,000 card-holders, doesn't even keep the records the FBI was seeking.

He was allowed to speak publicly Wednesday under a rare settlement in which the FBI agreed to withdraw its letter and lift the gag order. That should show other librarians, and members of the public who receive any of the nearly 50,000 national security letters the government issues each year, that "you can push back on these," Kahle said.

National security letters are subpoenas issued by federal agencies to require businesses and other institutions to produce records of their customers. The agencies do not need court approval for the letters.

...

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/07/BA7C10IJ17.DTL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for posting this.
I hope everyone reads the whole article.

Many people don't realize that libraries and librarians don't put up with shit. They hate censorship. They don't like it when government snoops try to nose around about what library patrons are reading. They guard freedom of speech.

I can only imagine the hell they put this guy through. Imagine getting one of those letters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Recommend it.
More people may see it as a consequence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Okay. I just did. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Our local head librarian, when I asked about FBI snooping
Edited on Thu May-08-08 06:11 AM by bean fidhleir
glowered and said "they get nothing without a subpoena".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sabriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. You can also ask your local librarian how they protect your info
I asked in Madison, and she informed me that check-out records are wiped permanently after you return your books. Essentially, there IS no record, other than what you currently have out.

Encourage your local system to adopt something similar, if it hasn't already.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Good suggestion!
Our system works the same way - records are purged after the material is checked in. We can individually elect to have our reading history kept, but the default is to autopurge everything.

Our librarian meant that he would refuse to turn on recordkeeping in response to anything less than a valid court order.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
28. So in your other post when you wrote the word "subpoena"
you meant 'warrant'?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. The "quote" was really a sloppy paraphrase. The actual term he used was "court order". (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
debannbull Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. ditto
We protect our patron info by NOT gathering it. There some folks who would like to be able to track the material they have used, ie: their record of what they've read, for their convenience's sake, but we decided at the start of automation that personal record keeping was fraught with potential complications and opted out.

And the business about gag orders makes me positively LIVID!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. Fifty *thousand* per year? (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. HALLELUJAH! THE LIBRARIANS ARE WONDERFUL! I AM SO GLAD TO SEE ONE OF THEM
WIN THIS! THIS IS A GREAT DAY FOR THE CONSTITUTION AND AMERICAN DEMOCRACY! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
6. K&R - Thanks, librarians, for all you do! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
Thanks for this information. Score one for freedom. I hope more people stand up to these thugs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
9. This is a huge problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Reader Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
12. Hah! Don't mess with librarians!
They may seem mild-mannered, but they'll scrap like terriers if they believe access to knowledge is threatened!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeNearMcChord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. Their secret identity revealed!! Conan The Librarian!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. Lol!
Good one!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Reader Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. Conan has man-boobs.
Or is that Marian the Librarian in drag? :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SavageDem Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
13. Oooooooooh, this makes my blood BOIL!
Let's see:

  • no court approval

  • can't tell anyone

  • can be prosecuted if don't comply

Does this sound like a democracy?

Three cheers for Mr. Kahle! It's time to fight back against this creeping fascism. I hope that any librarian that receives one of these posts it online in a large public forum like...hmmmm...oh, I dunno...DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pappy Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. Dido! its all secret and legal, and completely in violation of the Constitution and Civil Rights
Well apparently we cannot trust the top law enforcement agency either. The FBI probably stood for something a long time ago, but what it was I can't seem to remember, oh thats right, JUSTICE! Can't have none of that under Bush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
14. The FBI could have spent its time more effectively by getting * to release his emails. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
15. The best part of the article is the comments section
Which includes such gems as these:


mexilad

Great. National security means nothing. This bum stands on "Principal" with a leftist agenda and that makes em some kinda hero. Good bye America.


keepnitreal

all the comments here are all anti government! you lefties are gonna sink this great nation.


jeepgypsy

Only in San Francisco would one be "appalled" at being asked to cooperate in an investigation involving potential terrorisn against the United States. It's probably going to take a mushroom cloud from a container ship dirty bomb anchored in San Francisco Bay to wake all you gushing yammalukes up.

johnfx

i wonder what Kahle and people like him would do if the 9/11 attacks happened in San Francisco, instead of NYC.. they'd be the first to sue the US Goverment for failing to protect them. God Bless the US Goverment and President Bush for doing their best to keep its citizens safe. if your not doing anything wrong, what's wrong with the goverment checking your records in order to weed out terrorists??


AmericanMark

Librarians - hard copy and now apparently online - are the most degenerate and unpatriotic amongst us. They will go to the mat to allow someone to browse kiddie porn - with children sitting right next to them - and they prevent our national security agents from investigating records that might be useful. Every shuttered library is an advance in national security.



And my personal favorite:

zombywoof

Don't you miss J.Edgar Hoover ? Those were the days, days of sequin, garter belts and Gucci bags...

(could that be the same zombywoof who posts here on DU??)



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
14thColony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Anyone who seriously thinks...
that Fascism can't happen in the U.S. is out of their minds. "Shuttered libraries"? It appears many are chomping at the bit to install a Fourth Reich.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CubicleGuy Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
33. I could see this one coming...
if your not doing anything wrong, what's wrong with the goverment checking your records in order to weed out terrorists??

After all, only commies and terrorists really need their liberties, because liberty is only for people who want to do something wrong or illegal.

I don't think the phrase "presumption of innocence" means anything to these people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
16. leave it to our meek, mild mannered librarians to stand up to the FBI! nice to wake up to so many Rs
I was worried when I went to bed that no one had read or realized the importance of this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Yes! Bravo librarians!
:applause: :patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shain from kane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
17. This librarian is OK in my book.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
21. So good to see that fighting spirit.
:)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
23. I have to subscribe to their message board
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Please do. It's a mix of interesting, knowledgeable posters and many trolls.
The comments are often more entertaining and informative than the article.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
24. LIBRARIANS PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mad_Dem_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
25. Excellent
This kind of bullshit will continue unless we start fighting back!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
26. The FBI picked on the wrong librarian.
Kahle has the librarian traits mentioned by others but he also is on the board of the Electronic Frontier Foundation (lawyers from EFF and ACLU teamed up on this case.)

http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2008/05/06



The NSL was served on the Archive -- a digital library recognized by the state of California -- and its attorneys in November of 2007. The letter asked for personal information about one of the Archive's users, including the individual's name, address, and any electronic communication transactional records pertaining to the user. Kahle, who is also a member of EFF's Board of Directors, decided to fight the NSL because it exceeded the FBI's limited authority to issue such demands to libraries.

(snip)

A miscarriage of justice was prevented here because the Archive decided to fight the unlawful demand for information and unconstitutional gag," said EFF Staff Attorney Marcia Hofmann. "The big question is, how many other improper NSLs have been issued by the FBI and never challenged?"

NSLs are secretly issued by the government to obtain access to personal customer records from Internet Service Providers, financial institutions, and credit reporting agencies. In almost all cases, recipients of the NSLs are forbidden, or "gagged," from disclosing that they have received the letters. The ACLU has challenged this Patriot Act statute in federal court in two other cases where the judges found the gags unconstitutional: one involving an Internet Service Provider (ISP); the second a group of librarians. In the ISP case, the district court invalidated the entire NSL statute. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit is expected to hear oral arguments in the government's appeal of that case next month.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
31. K&R
Scary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GihrenZabi Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. I've met Brewster
He's an awesome person. Totally embodies the spirit of our internet age.

I wish him nothing but the best. Good job sticking it to The Man! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
35. now thats a real patriot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
36. OMG, how many other "security letters" are in effect right now?
How many other people are officially "gagged", unable to defend themselves or tell their story to the people?

If it took a "rare" agreement to bring this to light, how many others are there?

January 2009 can't come fast enough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SpookyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. Does my heart good!
As a former library person, from a long line of library people, AND a San Franciscan, this makes me swell with pride!

I remember many years ago when I was working at the Fremont Main Library a similar request come to our librarians, requiring the records of anyone, IIRC, "Arab or with an Arab sounding name..."

The ALA told the issuing party essentially, GFY, in a more literate, gentle way! :-)

Of course I also recall lo those many moons ago, checking out a male patron who was getting two books...one on taxidermy and one on female anatomy...I chose to assume they were unrelated!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mooseandsquirrel Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
38. Yes
I love being a librarian and watching a fellow one put up a real fight against the FBI.

m&s
http://moose-and-squirrel.com
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
39. This is why the "Patriot" Act has to go.
It's your worst Fascist nightmare, it's real, and it's happening right now in America!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. And it's spreading...
In France they have Nicolas Sarkonazi and over here in Canuckistan we're stuck with Harpo the Stooge.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Maybe once the pendulum swings to sanity here, that will become fashionable in other
former democracies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
carolinayellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
42. How many librarians silently complied after being threatened?
I just retired as director of a small rural public library, and always dreaded the possibility of one of those 50,000 letters showing up. Not allowed to tell anyone, neither on the staff nor the board, what was going on, and no lawyer to consult about what to do unless I hired one personally. Choosing to speak out or not to comply would risk one's livelihood and freedom. Mr. Kahle has done a great service for the library profession but I wonder how many of my fellow librarians were intimidated into compliance by the threats in these letters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
43. This is not just an ordinary online library, it's THE internet library
http://www.archive.org/



The guy in question, Brewster Kahle, was also the guy who started the internet traffic analysis company Alexa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Kahle
He's also member of Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and one of the people behind Open Content Alliance.

http://www.opencontentalliance.org/
It's amazing that the FBI tries to shackle him for "international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities."
One of the good guys, no doubt.

Here's the url to the NSL:
http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/internetarchive_nslissued_20070119.pdf
And also about this case on Wired:
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/05/internet-archiv.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
45. Another reason to adore the Internet Archive
Here's a toast to the people who are fighting for all our rights.
:toast:

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=192021
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC