Roman mayor vows purge of gypsies

[Kelvin Mace]

Source: Irish Independent

The new mayor of Rome promised yesterday to purge the Italian capital of 20,000 illegal immigrants and to raze 85 Roma Gypsy camps.

Gianni Alemanno (50) a firebrand neo-fascist and the first rightwing mayor of the city since the Second World War, vowed to make Rome "secure" as he was sworn into office after his election at the weekend.

In a sign of things to come, after Mr Alemanno's election, newly-elected Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi declared: "We are the new Falange."

The original Falange (or Phalanx) was the Spanish fascist party, founded in the 1930s, whose doctrine was adopted by General Franco.

Mr Alemanno's election was also celebrated by hundreds of supporters chanting "Duce! Duce!" and raising their arms in Mussolini's Fascist salute.

The new mayor said his first action would be to begin "immediate expulsions" of the 20,000 immigrants in the city with criminal records.

Read more: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/roman-mayor-vows-purge-of-gypsies-1363515.html

---

Folks, we are replaying the 1930's with America starring as Germany, and Italy reprising its original role.

[CoffeeCat]

1. Gee, if I want to get a glimpse of the future...

...all I have to do is pop "V for Vendetta" into the DVD player.

I guess I need to prepare for a lack of butter and a national curfew.

[SavageDem]

5. I LOVE that movie!

"Remember, remember, the 5th of November..."

I just hope the gypsies are as resilient and tough as the gypsies in Snatch, the Guy Ritchie movie. Remember what happens when you cross the gypsies?

[AngryAmish]

22. I did not see Snatch, but I think those folks were tinkers, not gypsies

[Taverner]

23. Different kinds of gypsies tho

The ones in Snatch were the Irish Travelers, aka Irish Gypsies. We have them here. They're a wandering clan of Irish descent.

The ones in Rome are the Romani, common throughout Eastern Europe, and the target of many a purge.

[formercia]

26. And don't mess with their Momma.

Good Movie.

[slampoet]

28. Those are what we might call "Irish Travelers" and some might call "gypsys" but they aren't actually

real Romani Gypsys.

The Romani people as they prefer to be called, are originally from India and extend over the entire distance from India westward to Gibraltar.


Irish Travelers or Tinkers or Irish Gypsys as they are called are a separate ethnic group from Ireland who may have had contact with Spanish Romani sailors during the time the Irish harbored sailors of the Spanish Armada in 1588, but the bloodline of the Tinkers seems to be much more common to Ireland than the Romani.



edit for clarity and apologies for posting what was above.

[SavageDem]

30. Apologies unnecessary!

Look at the collective wealth of knowledge embodied on DU! Amazing (and I'm not being sarcastic!). I love that movie (just bought it recently), but had no idea of the background or lineage of the characters portrayed.

[bitchkitty]

43. Not Roms - travelers, or tinkers.

on edit - already been noted, sorry.

[ananda]

2. Is that what's behind the new fascism in European countries..

.. immigration?

Sheesh.

England, France, and Italy are totally
losing their way.

Of course, America has been lost for a good
while.

[lastliberalintexas]

57. From being in Europe recently, I would have to say yes

Immigration (and all its related issues) seems to be pushing them further right, but they also seem conflicted about it at the same time. Sarkozy is not popular in France, and while I was there his party took a bath in local/regional elections. I did not meet a French person who actually admitted to liking him, kind of like Nixon by 1975. And the Swiss and Germans I met seemed hesitant to fully embrace conservatives too.

I am still hopeful that Europe will wake up before it's too late. :)

[Virginia Dare]

3. This has only been going on for a couple of thousand years..

we don't learn much from the past do we?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. Possibly right down to the Great Depression part of things too... (nt)

[WillParkinson]

6. Hitler would be proud

No other comments.

[BrklynLib at work]

7. I refuse to believe that the majority of the citizens agree with this policy.

They must be taking lessons from BushCO and Rove on how to subvert a government.
Media moguls like Berlusconi and Murdoch are right there rubbing their hands in glee.

[Kelvin Mace]

8. Berlusconi & Murdoch

are the poster children of fascism.

[Finite]

12. It's not really that simple

Ever been to Rome? The gypsies are seriously fucking annoying, constantly begging, stealing, causing a nuisance.. I can see why the Romans are so fed up, I'm not advocating killing anyone or anything but they've got a right to do something about the problem.

[Kelvin Mace]

17. It's simple

If individuals break the law. You arrest them, try them, and if convicted, punish them.

You do not plan wholesale assaults to "raze" people's dwellings.

"Seriously fucking annoying" isn't a crime. If it were the streets would be empty.

[BearSquirrel2]

32. They're not individuals ...

They're not individuals. They operate in families. It's not unlike the mafia.

[Kelvin Mace]

44. So,

they commit crimes as a group? Five of them pick the same pocket in unison?

[BearSquirrel2]

48. Lots of jobs ...

Well, there are observers (finding a mark), lookouts (checking for cops), distractors (pretty women, dropping things, fake fights), jostlers (people who bump up against you), and of course the picker (the guy who takes your stuff). Sometimes the goods are even passed off to another guy who's purpose is to relieve the picker of damming evidence. Pickpockets and shoplifters work in teams to minimize risk and maximize payoffs.

Search the internet and read up on it.

http://travel.howstuffworks.com/pickpocket.htm

[conscious evolution]

55. One does the picking

The others serve as distraction.

The Romas are just as big of a crime family as the Mafia is.

I see this as a turf-war between competing crime families.

[uppityperson]

19. Like what? "they've got a right to do something about the problem."

Serious question, not a snark. What should they do? I agree, in many places of the world beggars are a serious problem. What should they do?

[BrklynLib at work]

27. A Modest Proposal.

http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

A Modest Proposal


For Preventing The Children of Poor People in Ireland
From Being Aburden to Their Parents or Country, and
For Making Them Beneficial to The Public


By Jonathan Swift (1729)

It is a melancholy object to those who walk through this great town or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads, and cabin doors, crowded with beggars of the female sex, followed by three, four, or six children, all in rags and importuning every passenger for an alms. These mothers, instead of being able to work for their honest livelihood, are forced to employ all their time in strolling to beg sustenance for their helpless infants: who as they grow up either turn thieves for want of work, or leave their dear native country to fight for the Pretender in Spain, or sell themselves to the Barbadoes.
I think it is agreed by all parties that this prodigious number of children in the arms, or on the backs, or at the heels of their mothers, and frequently of their fathers, is in the present deplorable state of the kingdom a very great additional grievance; and, therefore, whoever could find out a fair, cheap, and easy method of making these children sound, useful members of the commonwealth, would deserve so well of the public as to have his statue set up for a preserver of the nation.

But my intention is very far from being confined to provide only for the children of professed beggars; it is of a much greater extent, and shall take in the whole number of infants at a certain age who are born of parents in effect as little able to support them as those who demand our charity in the streets.



”I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled ...”

<snip>

:cry:

[BearSquirrel2]

31. I have Romanian Professors ...

I have a Romanian professor. This is a seriously liberal guy with a big heart. The things that they said about gypsies seriously shocked me. So when it comes from folks like this, I take it seriously.

Apparently, they have a lot of social apparatus for Romani improvement. Apparently, these folks scoff at education even when they are PAID to go to school. When given houses, they reportedly bed the animals inside.

Italy has a bad problem because they started paying gypsies to leave. Well, imagine what happened when word got out???

BTW, the village from Borat was a Romanian gypsy village.


BTW, my professor's perspective on these folks is that he pities them for shunning knowledge and passing up opportunities to integrate.

[entanglement]

52. What you are regurgitating is classic racialist propaganda

The plight of the Roma is bad enough without putative 'liberals' cheerleading their oppression. Are you aware such propaganda was used to send a million Roma to their deaths by the Nazi regime? Or the extent of discrimination and violence faced by the Roma even today? Eastern Europe's working classes have (unfortunately) been raised on a steady diet of anti-Roma hate (thanks to their cynical rulers) and this colors their view of anything related to the Roma.

[Traction311]

33. That is correct

I have seen them in restaurants. Kids running around wild, the parents always trying to get something taken off the bill, then leaving the waiter nothing. Apparently, there is a large gypsy population in some area in NJ.

[UTUSN]

9. GHOULIANI moved over there?!1 n/t

[Taverner]

24. he did?

[YankeyMCC]

10. Well lucky for him Turnus' similar policy of pushing out

immigrants didn't succeed in keeping those Trojan refugees away. :sarcasm:

[FreepFryer]

11. I'm going to Rome for a few weeks next week w/camera. I love Rome & want to see this firsthand.

[Retrograde]

18. go to the Terminii railroad station

You'll see plenty of Gypsies - you'll have a hard time avoiding them, since they'll seek you out. I caught one boy with his hand in my purse; a friend found one sticking his hand in his pocket. Just keep a tight hand on your camera. There are also extremely aggressive panhandlers, who'll follow you and curse if you don't give them anything.

I'm not European, and know only a little bit about the social and cultural issues involved with trying to integrate the Gypsies into a larger society. I can understand the desire to clean up actual crime-prone areas, and get social services for the people who hang around there. However, this proposal also looks like it can be abused pretty easily.

Have a great and a safe trip!

[onager]

38. I just went to Rome in February

Off-season for pickpockets and beggars, fortunately. Other than the cold and rain, it was great. No huge crowds. Got into the Sistine Chapel fairly quickly, though there was still a long line.

One of the best gypsy scams I heard of: a gang of women surround the victim. One woman is carrying a baby. She drops the baby and screams, betting the tourist will try to catch it (as they usually do).

While the tourist's hands are busy rescuing the poor little baby, the gang's hands are busy finding the victim's money, passport, cell phone, camera etc.

About the time the gypsies scatter, the victim realizes the baby is a plastic doll.

Do a Google on "rome gypsies" and prepare to be enlightened.

But not even the Terminii had many pests in February. I had to use the Terminii because I took a train from Rome to Venice. And got to Venice just in time for the last night of Carnival, which was a real blast. I'd never been to Venice, though it had been a lifeong dream to go there. Now I want to go back!

FWIW, I've lived in Alexandria, Egypt for the past 3 years, and it also has a lot of beggars. I cracked up one day, when a pair of Egyptian teen girls walked up to me with their hands out, saying "Money-money-money!"

Both were wearing top-of-the-line denim outfits, and one girl stopped begging when her cell phone rang.

Jebus! If you're going to beg, at least LOOK the part!

[liberalla]

63. Keep your documents and valuables in inside pockets

In Milano my wallet taken from my purse and I didn't realize what was happening. The zingarelli (gypsy children) surrounded me holding signs which blocked my view, while they went into my purse (my camera was in my hands).

Losing my passport was the biggest pain. Also some credit cards. The traveler's checks were in another place. Despite this, Italy is one of my favorite places. I hadn't been warned about the gypsies, but you have, so now you can be aware. Have a great trip!

A few years ago 60 Minutes did a story about them.

[LeftishBrit]

13. This is so unbelievably depressing

Neo-fascism is a problem in Europe; but I never expected to see quite this in a major city.

I don't think it's linked to the American Right however. E.g. Europaean neo-Fascist parties are opposed to the Iraq war (on isolationist, not humanitarian or legal, grounds); though I don't know about this particular man's views. It's more a case of current anti-immigrant bigotry meets old-style fascism. And the Gypsies as ever are a target; and don't even seem to have the same organized support as many other minority groups.

[ensho]

14. agree 'unbelievably depressing' and Germany is going back down

the tubes.

but I think climate change will trump it all

[izquierdista]

15. Gypsies as targets

There are two groups of people who draw the outline of the target on themselves and are then shocked when some fascist comes by and paints the bright red bull's-eye: (1) those who say "our culture is superior to yours, as we are God's chosen people" and (2) those who say "we must look out for ourselves and it is OK to cheat people who are not in our clan".

Is it any wonder then, that when the fascist is looking for a group upon which to whip up some hate, he goes for the small number who keep to themselves? As the anti-Apartheid and Civil Rights movements have shown, when that group is a large number which only wants to be treated equally, they can resist and eventually win people over to their side. But when the group is small and they hold out their differences, they have walked straight into the cross-hairs.

There are many here that would quickly run to the defense of the Gypsies, as they should when any group's human rights are being threatened. But how many of those will still defend them when they learn of the arranged marriages of 12 year old girls?

[Kelvin Mace]

16. This is the practice of some people

who are called "gypsies". The term is liberally applied to a number of nomadic groups whose practices, beliefs and ethics are by no means homogeneous.

To ascribe to the whole, the sins of the few, and intimate that in some way this "explains" their persecution and makes it understandable, is simply wrong.

[slampoet]

20. These people aren't being kicked around over marriage. They are being used as political footballs,

just like when mayors run anti-graffiti campaigns during election years.



The Romani gave the world music for 1400 years. Show some respect.

[uppityperson]

21. Do you mean the Rom, or the Sinti as as whole subscribe to child marriage?

I am sure there are some groups that do, rather like the FLDS here in the USA does. But that is not the whole ethnic group of either the Rom or the Sinti. I speak up against any arranged marriages of anyone, or any group.

Rom and Sintihave been treated very negatively historically, in part due to their society of sticking together as a group, in part to their not being typical city people, in part to their being "different". Turkey is also demolishing some of the Romany part of Instanbul, to try and drive them out again.

Even the term "gypsy" is a bigoted term arising from when they were driven out of Egypt. Yes, some Rom do call themselves gypsies, but it is equivalent to calling someone "nigger".

[LanternWaste]

29. I was under the impression that the...

I was under the impression that the arranged marriages of the younger Roma had become nothing more than an aberration as compared to the group as a whole.

What's your source on this if it indeed part and parcel of the culture as a whole?

[izquierdista]

34. Not important what it is

Arranged marriages, polygamy, polyandry, could be anything. Minority populations have a certain latitude to practice their customs. Beyond that they become weird and bizarre to the majority culture, lose support of those advocating tolerance, run afoul of the laws that the majority have enacted, and become ripe to be a whipping boy for some fascist instigator.

[LanternWaste]

35. So "...marriages of 12 year old girls?" is supposition on your part?

So "...marriages of 12 year old girls?" is supposition on your part?

[izquierdista]

37. Not out of thin air

I have no personal experience with the "gypsies" (whichever ethnicity they are) that are in Rome. When I was last there, it was in and out of the train station and I didn't get to see what the locals were worked up about (begging? con games? prostitution?).

However, I did live in South Carolina where there is a large Irish "Traveler" community (a.k.a. gypsies) known for marrying off jr. high school age girls and swindling people in other states with home improvement scams. The new Roman mayor would not have to skip a beat in his stump speech if he ran for election in South Carolina, and he could probably win. Charlie Condon (the former South Carolina attorney general) sure got a lot of political mileage by cracking down on them.

[LanternWaste]

40. Ahhh... hearsay. I gotcha.

Ahhh... hearsay. I gotcha.

A local regional governor cashing in on superstitions, suppositions and hearsay evidence about a culture to win greater support. Hasn't that been happening since the dawn of time?

[izquierdista]

42. Probably even earlier

I would suspect the fascist genotype goes all the way back to baboons, where it originated with one male trying to become troop leader by accusing a minority who liked to sit in trees of being "elitist".

[Kelvin Mace]

45. To be fair...

The Travelers, tinkers, gypsies, Romani, etc, do have a reputation, somewhat deserved, for running con games, pick pocket rings, check scams, etc. They can be a major nuisance when the move into an area.

That said, old time extermination methods are not the answer.

[entanglement]

53. "Old time extermination methods are not the answer" - At least you stop short of advocating genocide

I'm impressed :sarcasm:

[Kelvin Mace]

58. I, too was being sarcastic

:)

I, in no way, agree with this reaction. If you look, I was the original poster of the story.

[LanternWaste]

59. Whatever their problems may be

Whatever their problems may be, it's certainbly not in our best interest to ad even more crimes (marrying 12 year olds in the here and now) to their pedigree.

(Yet-- this is what we have: reputations, suppositions, "may be's". Not good enough for me to denigrate an entire culture...)

[dropkickpa]

60. So you're a fan of "The Riches" on FX n/t

[struggle4progress]

46. What a load of rightwing crap

[OKthatsIT]

50. Make way for the GLADIO revivalists

Operation Gladio: NATO Terrorists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXHGF6YS0Fw

[barnel]

25. Mayor is Jipping these people out of their rights

oops, poor choice of words

[LanternWaste]

41. I'm sure you

I'm sure you a) meant to do it and b) feel pretty damn clever about it too.

[bean fidhleir]

36. About the Roma, aka Gypsies aka Gyppos

This is from the preface to the hilarious 32 Cadillacs by the respected novelist, screenwriter, marine-salvage expert, and ex-private detective Joe Gores:

Although my stance toward the Rom during my detective career was strictly adversarial, my Gypsy lore in 32 Cadillacs is as honest as research and experience can make it, as are their scams, cons, and grifts. And I have tried to make my fictional Gypsies realistic--and fun--without sentimentalizing them. If you sentimentalize Gypsies, you run the risk of ending up with a car that won't run, a roof that won't stop the rain, or a driveway that comes up on the sole of your shoe.

Many Roma themselves liked the book so much that they phoned and wrote him with additions and corrections to his knowledge of their language, history, customs, and scams. He subsequently wrote another book, Scams, Cons, and Grifts, also hysterically funny and a virtual sequel to 32C, in which he shows more snippets of their complex intra-clan traditional life as well as more of the favorite ways they rip off the "gadje" (us).

[sofa king]

39. Ohhhh, shit.

It's sad to see that fascism is a disease which returns as soon as the last people who can remember how bad it is start to die off.

[JerseygirlCT]

47. Oh that's scary.

Really.

How can people be so stupid?

[Flagg]

49. Mr Alemanno's election was also celebrated by hundreds of supporters chanting "Duce! Duce!" and rais

ooookay...

[entanglement]

51. The Roma people are highly vulnerable to the rising tide of right-wingery and nativism in Europe

They are easy targets in bad economic times. The European political class is involved in a shameless attempt to divide working people along racial and nationalist lines.

[Zorra]

54. "We were Good Germans. We didn't know." n/t

[Dorian Gray]

56. I don't know...

I've been to Rome a number of times, and I was the victim of a gypsy newspaper scam. (Two children came up to me with newspapers, put it in my face and tried to pickpocket me.) Luckily I keep all my credit cards and most of my cash on an inside pocket while my purse was filled with every day stuff. Their community is known for their criminal activities. Gypsies are called that more for their lifestyle than their ethnicity. They roam and they steal.

I don't think that they should be removed solely because they are Roma, but any of them who are involved in criminal actions should suffer the consequences.

[Anarchy in Detroit]

61. uh oh not Italy! Look out guys!

LOL @ ITALY


Italy needs to make up its damn mind about whether they're fasicst or not. Its off and on since WW2. Why Gypsies? It sounds like a Borat joke. What has Italy done since the Roman empire besides getting gang banged by Germans every now and then? I always figured fascists should be people who can back up all their tough guy rhetoric.

Anywho, have fun Italy. They'll kick the fascists out in a few years and do something else, then most likely they will do fascism over again. Let em deal with it themselves.

note: "we are the new Falange" Yeah. BECAUSE THE BLACK SHIRTS SUCKED.

[Trajan]

62. Interesting last name in Rome ...

The Alemanni were a tribe of European 'barbarians' that Rome had alternately fought and conscripted into service .... Alemanno would be the masculine singular of Alemanni ....