Bid to ban hybrid embryos fails (UK)

[muriel_volestrangler]

Source: BBC

A cross-party attempt to outlaw the creation of hybrid human-animal embryos has been defeated by MPs, by 336 votes to 176.

Tory ex-minister Edward Leigh, who led the move, had argued the technique was "a step too far and should be banned".

But Gordon Brown had argued that the work was a "moral endeavour" that could save thousands of lives.

MPs are now debating whether to allow "saviour siblings" whose genetic material could help sick relatives.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7407589.stm

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That's a fairly large majority. Another amendment to the bill, to be debated tomorrow, will try to reduce the limit for abortions from 24 to 22 weeks (a danger to the woman's life, or significant foetal abnormality, will still be allowed as a reason after that); some think that vote will be close, but I suspect with this amendment failing, there may not be so many MPs listening to the religious arguments as first thought.

[whistle]

1. There is something very strange about genetically creating human embryos

...which have DNA stands from other species in my opinion. It has the feel of an "Island of Dr Moreau" tampering to it that only the insanity of English scientists seem to be willing to promote and propagate.

<snip>
The Island of Doctor Moreau is a 1896 science fiction novel written by H. G. Wells, addressing ideas of society and community, human nature and identity, playing God and Darwinism. The mythic figure of the chimera, a human/animal hybrid, is brought into the scientific age.

When the novel was written in the late 19th century, Britain's scientific community was engulfed by debates on animal vivisection. Interest groups were even formed to tackle the issue: the British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection was formed two years after the publication of the novel.

The novel is presented as a discovered manuscript, introduced by the narrator's nephew; it then 'transcribes' the tale.

<snip>
The novel has been made into a movie on three occasions:

Island of Lost Souls (1933 film) with Charles Laughton and Bela Lugosi.
The Island of Dr. Moreau (1977 film) with Burt Lancaster and Michael York.
This was turned into a novel by Joseph Silva and published by Ace.
The Island of Dr. Moreau (1996 film) with Marlon Brando and Val Kilmer

<MORE>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_of_Dr._Moreau

[Taverner]

2. Fear is the mother of morality...

[whistle]

4. Really, who said that by the way, do you know?

[Taverner]

5. Friedrich Nietzsche

[whistle]

7. Precisely, and morality is probably one of the better reasons to have fear

[Taverner]

8. I'm against both, personally

I prefer Ethics

And I prefer knowledge to fear

[LanternWaste]

9. Delete-- I asnwerd my own question

Delete-- I answered my own question.

[whistle]

10. You are using fear as synonymous with ignorance and ethics as a substitute for truth

....but I can assure you that highly ethical and knowledgeable people today harbor a great deal of fear of amoral scientists and people with power who are free to apply new technology in any way they wish. I prefer ethics and knowledge also, but not in the hands of fascist monsters.

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. Please, let's not bring 'fascism' into this

This has nothing to do with politics.

[whistle]

14. You want me to delete my post?

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Just asking that irrelevant ,but button-pushing, terms like 'fascist' are avoided

They won't help any sensible discussion of this.

[Taverner]

13. But think about the poential for good

Resistance to certain forms of cancer for one...

[Posteritatis]

16. Geneticists are fascist monsters now? (nt)

[LeftishBrit]

18. So British medical researchers are fascist monsters now?

Wow.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you; but that's how it could be interpreted.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. Why 'insane'?

The purpose is quite clear - to research embryo stem cells, using eggs that are abundant, rather than human ones that are extremely limited. There's a definite time limit on the embryos - 14 days - so these will never develop into anything living.

[Posteritatis]

15. Hey, keep your 'facts' and 'reality' out of this here kneejerk fest! (nt)

[HeresyLives]

3. Fantastic!

[whistle]

12. Qotes from Island of Dr Moreau (1996 film)...

<snip>

Dr. Moreau: I have almost achieved perfection you see, of a divine creature that is pure, harmonious, absolutely incapable of any malice. And if in my tinkering I have fallen short of the human form by the snout, claw or hoof, it really is of no great importance. I am closer than you could possibly imagine sir.

<snip>

Sayer of the Law: It is a hard way, the way of being a man. Sooner or later we all want a thing that is bad. To walk on all fours. To suck up drink from a stream. To jabber, instead of saying the words. To go snuffling at the earth, and to claw on the bark of trees. To eat flesh, or fish. To make love to more than one, every which way. These are all bad things. These are not the things that men do. But we are men, are we not? We are men because the Father has made us men!

<snip>

Hyena-Swine: Tell me, why you make the pain, if we are your children.

[LeftishBrit]

19. To clarify, as I think there may be some confusion...

no one is proposing that human/animal hybrids be genetically produced and carried to term - almost certainly not possible in any case. These embryos are destroyed after 14 days; and would not be viable anyway. Their sole purpose is for developing stem cells. I realize that people who believe that life begins at fertilization would disapprove of this - but it isn't a way of creating Frankenstein monsters.

[LeftishBrit]

20. The proposed ban on 'saviour siblings' was defeated by an even larger majority

And quite rightly IMO - would you similarly ban parents from conceiving 'saviour siblings' by the more usual route? How do you ever know whether parents' motives for conceiving are totally 'pure'?