Supreme Court to Hear Case on Illegal Immigrants' Use of Fake IDs

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: WP

The Supreme Court today accepted a case with significant implications for the government's crackdown on illegal immigration, agreeing to review whether prosecutors have to prove that defendants in aggravated identity theft cases knew they were victimizing a real person.

The justices will hear the appeal of Ignacio Flores-Figueroa, a Mexican illegal immigrant who used false identification to get a job at a steel plant in Illinois. He was convicted of aggravated identity theft and other counts and sentenced to more than six years in prison.

Flores-Figueroa argued that the government failed to prove that he knew the fraudulent documents belonged to a real person as opposed to being fabricated. Lower courts ruled that the government did not have to prove that, accepting the Justice Department's position in this and other aggravated identify theft cases. Three appellate courts have rendered decisions backing the government.

But three other appellate courts have ruled otherwise, and the Supreme Court is expected to resolve the dispute.



Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/20/AR2008102001075.html?hpid=moreheadlines

[snappyturtle]

1. Using falsied IDs whether fabricated or stolen is wrong. imho

Same could be said of youths using fake IDs for buying liquor, etc.

[AlphaCentauri]

3. The problem is that work is not a crime

the fake IDs are not used to commit crime

[Andy823]

5. Working without "legal" documents

Is a crime.

[AlphaCentauri]

14. It all depends on the required documents to get a job

I don't think a passport or birth certificates are required to get a job

[Rage for Order]

24. Those documents are required to get a job

Have you been hired by any company since 1987? One of the forms you are required to fill out is the I-9, i.e. the Employment Eligibility Verification form. This form requires 2 different forms of ID from 3 categories. Eligible documents include a passport, birth certificate, driver's license, and Green Card, among others. You can find the I-9 form http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/I-9.pdf">here.

[WriteDown]

6. that simply is not true...

plenty of illegals and legals use SSN's as a handy method for credit card fraud. Seen it first hand in good old DFW. Identity theft is nearly impossible to rectify as well.

[AlphaCentauri]

12. Credit card fraud it's not the same as using fake IDs to work n/t

[Xithras]

15. And it's not always fraud.

My BiL went through this a few years ago. His SSN was appropriated by an illegal immigrant in Texas who used it to get a job, a house, etc. The guy stole his number, but apparently wasn't trying to scam my BiL out of anything.

Then the immigrant guy hit on hard times. He apparently lost his job, defaulted on a couple of the things he'd financed using the stolen SSN, and wrote the bills off. Instead of trying to work the debt out, the guy just got a new ID and SSN, and started out with a new identity.

The auto finance company and a collector for a store charge card came after my BiL to collect. It took him a year to get it all straightened out, and it still impacts his overall credit score.

In this particular case though, the immigrant was caught (those original bills had addresses on them), prosecuted, and spent six months in jail before being deported. He apparently cried during his trial that he didn't "intend" to harm my BiL and really did want to just build a better life, but the fact remained that he had stolen his identity, screwed up his credit, and walked away leaving my brother in law and the finance companies holding the bag.

[JeanGrey]

37. Of course he was "scamming" you. He stole his identity and

got away with it.

[snappyturtle]

9. Really. Talk to someone who has had their entire world turned

upside down after their identity is stolen.

If the SCOTUS finds the original intent was only to work and not to knowingly commit a crime God help us. I knew I shouldn't get involved in this one but I feel so strongly about it. A person seeking and procuring fake ID that results in harm to another is criminally responsible, imho. The fact alone that they are seeking fake identification is misrepresenting themselves on top of entering the country illegally. I have NO problem with legal immigration and proper personal identification in the course of finding employment.

[AlphaCentauri]

16. Identity Theft and Fraud it's a crime that should prosecuted

the case in the article it's not about Identity Theft and Fraud, it's about fake ID's to get a job

[Lifetimedem]

21. Of course it is

[snappyturtle]

31. I guess we don't agree...I was just using what was printed:

He was convicted of aggravated identity theft and other counts and sentenced to more than six years in prison.

This statement lead me to think this is about identity theft!

[sarcasmo]

10. Having the fake Id's are a crime and many use them to obtain cable

and other utilities. I have a friend who has had her ID stolen and used to access cable, so this is not a crime stealing someone's ID?

[AlphaCentauri]

17. of course it's a crime

but work it's not

[WriteDown]

33. Do you really think that anyone...

using a false ssn is only using it to work? SSN's are needed for just about everything, housing, utilities, bank accounts, etc. Unless they are living in a tent next to the worksite then it is 99.9% likely that they are using it for other purposes.

[Lifetimedem]

20. Yes they are

Without those stolen identities the illegal aliens could not work in industry or any other organized workplace .

Farmers and independent contractors hire "off the books" and pay them slave wages.. but if they want real jobs with real wages they need to have a social security card.

They are committing a crime being here in the first place, but the ID theft affects real life people, casting credit ratings to be damaged and costing people thousands to get it straightened out .

The problem is the Social Securitgy knows who these people are and where they work...they simply choose to turn a blind eye to it and let the American citizen go to hell

[silverojo]

35. Stealing someone's identity is a crime, no matter what the excuse

Using a fake ID for ANYTHING is a crime. If you think work is an exception, you might want to read the fine print on any work application, which mentions that falsifying ANY information is, shall we say, a tad illegal.

Why do we smile and nod about crime when it's committed by someone from countries south of the border...yet if it's committed by anyone from any other country in the world (incl. those born right here in the USA), we're all "Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's off to jail you go"?

BIG double standard here.

[AlphaCentauri]

38. Using a fake ID to commit a second crime would be a good reason for 6 years in jail

like buying liquor when not permitted

[Andy823]

8. I agree.

If everyone just obeyed the laws they want to, what would this country be like? The fact is it is illegal to come into this country without proper documents. It's also illegal to posses and use a false ID. It's also illegal for employers to hire those with obvious illegal ID. Not only are those who come her subject to the laws of this country, but so are those who hire them.

[Xipe Totec]

11. It is wrong. The question is whether it merits six years in jail

I don't know of any youths serving six years in jail for using fake IDs for buying liquor.

[silverojo]

36. Fake ID and stolen ID are two different things

If said youths stole someone else's ID, that'd be a far more serious crime.

Even at that, youths are seldom given adult sentences for crime. That's why you won't find too many kids serving hard time for creating a fake ID to buy booze.

[OhioChick]

19. Agreed. n/t

[harmonicon]

30. should youths using fake id's to get liquor serve 6 years in prison?

[treestar]

32. The question is not whether it is "wrong" but whether the law

Makes it illegal whether the person thought it was victimizing a real person.

Working under someone else's social security number - you just pay into their account and get nothing for yourself, as far as I can see.

Also the Defendant said he thought his ID was for a fake person, not a real one.

[GreenTea]

2. The republicans will use this to scream illegals are voting (ACORN) even though not a

single case has been proved....the slimy lying republicans will distort it to show otherwise as they continue to purge and steal the election with their hacked voting machines and smokescreens like ACORN.

[bemildred]

4. knowingly transferring, possessing or using "a means of identification of another person"

So what does "knowingly" mean there if not the obvious meaning? Why is it there if not to distinguish between knowing use of anothers identity and simple use of a false ID ?

[WriteDown]

7. Gee..

My name isn't really Sam Adams? I had no idea :).

[Lifetimedem]

22. Is ignorance of the law ever a defense?

[Thorandmjolnir]

13. In law, specificity counts

These people were tried and convicted of identity theft.

Meaning, that they purposefully and intentionally obtained and used someone else's identity for a monetary gain.

The defense is arguing that the State had to prove:

1. The identity/personal information belonged to someone else, a real person.
2. That the immigrant knew the identity/personal information belonged to a real person
3. That the immigrant intentionally used that other personal information to obtain a fake ID.

The State is saying, all it had to prove was that the immigrant used an ID not belonging to him.

The problem for the State is they could not prove the case the way the defense said they had to. First, because most of the immigrants don't speak English. Second, because most of the immigrants did not know where the fake ID's came from. Third, they cannot prove that the Immigrant, had he known the ID/personal information belonged to a real person, that the immigrant would have used it any way.

By skipping all theses steps, the State was guaranteed a conviction.

The problem is, in most criminal cases you need to prove intent and knowledge (the guilty mind). You need to prove that the defendant did the act intentionally and with the intent to perpetrate the illegal acts.

If the defendant can show that he thought the ID was a made up name with made up information, and that no living person had this information, then there was no intent to commit identity theft, thus no crime.

You cannot steal an identity if it does not belong to someone. There is nothing to steal.

Since, this would be too hard a burden on the State, it simply argued that it did not need to prove all the elements of the crime of identity theft. But that the defendant was still guilty.

The big thing is that you go to jail for a longer time if you steal someone else identity than if you just make up a name and personal information.

[Piewhacket]

18. Not sure about that...

its not intrinsicly wrong,
the use of false papers must still violate some law.
broadly, fraud.

for example, a criminal statute intended to protect individuals
from the harm of having their identity stolen. yet what if the identity
does not belong to a real person? how can you "harm" a
fictitious person?

here what is really going on is the prosecutors may be over-charging
in order to coerce guilty pleas to less serious charges. it is
a form of extortion, but (somehow) legal.

even if PROPERLY charged but willing to accept a lesser plea
the tactic can be viewed as repulsive, but some argue it is
a necessary and (perhaps) appropriate way to resolve cases.
It works. more or less. mostly less. depends. debatable

not debatable, on the other hand, is IMPROPER or (overcharging) which is,
basically, misconduct by a prosecutor. that's the short of it.

Improper charging is also what you get when zealous whackjobs who have
an agenda but otherwise no fucking clue what they are doing who's educational
credentials come in a kracker jack box from a Pat Robertson university,
and their moral character has the stench of swamp gas... when such folks
manage to get into the prosecutor's chair due to other corrupt partisan
whackjobs... and now you know who I'm freekin talking about...

ANYWAY, the political issue may be whether the matter was overcharged.

but the legal issue is resolving dissagrement in the appellate courts by way
of an appeal from conviction, that is, claim of an unfair trial because
the judge made a mistake (possibly because he's another whack university grad?).
so hey! we'll see.

[Azlady]

23. He broke the law, why are they splitting hairs over this..

He should be required to pay for costs to repair the persons ID/Credit he stole & damages. His sentence should also reflect not only using fake documents to work, but the fact that he ALSO destroyed someones credit.. just how I feel.

[OhioChick]

27. I'm sure you "see" a lot

of illegal immigration where you live, depending on your location.

PS....You have a shitty senator! :hi:

[Azlady]

28. Hey, I didn't vote for the Mcpoop!

[santamargarita]

25. I wonder how the GOP assholes will use this to subvert the election?

~

[underpants]

26. Talked to a buddy of mine who said he saw some Repub from Va. Beach on local TV

This a-hole claimed that there IS a lot of support for McCain-based on the number of yard signs they gave out

AND

that Virginia may go to Obama because of all the "immigrants" that have moved into No. Virginia.

You and I know exactly what he meant. No surprise the SC would accept this case so close to the election either

[musette_sf]

29. if it's not YOUR identification

then it is fraudulent for you to use it, for anything, under any circumstances.

you KNOW that the identification does not belong TO YOU.

therefore you are committing FRAUD if you use it.

it's wrong for the people selling the fake ID to sell it.

it's wrong for the person buying the fake ID to buy it.

and it's wrong for the employer to NOT verify the applicant's ID to make sure it belongs to the applicant.

"the government failed to prove that he knew the fraudulent documents belonged to a real person as opposed to being fabricated"

what a crock. he KNEW it did not belong to HIM and therein lies FRAUD. he had intent to use fake ID to DEFRAUD the holder of the ID that is NOT HIS, and obtain work on false pretenses.

[fed_up_mother]

34. IF you don't know anyone who's had their identity stolen, you may not realize how serious this is

It's not like you can call up some credit company and fix it in a day. It follows you for years. It can practically destroy your life - not just in making purchases, but in renting and even getting a job. Too many people think it's just a hassle that one has to deal with for a while.

WRONG.