Dallas Mayor Tom Leppert and billionaire Boone Pickens snarl DART’s plans to buy new buses

[Robbien]

Source: Dallas Morning News

Dallas Mayor Tom Leppert, billionaire oilman T. Boone Pickens and several DART board members have halted the transit agency's plan to buy a fleet of 537 new diesel-powered buses.
. . .

. . .

The two questions at the center of the debate have been: Are natural-gas buses really better for the environment? And, if so, how much extra should DART pay to own and operate them?

To DART's staff, which has been preparing to buy the new buses for more than a year, the answer to the first question is "no," making the answer to the second one "nothing at all."

"We think the emissions are virtually the same," executive director Gary Thomas said. "So from a staff perspective, it's a dollar-and-cents thing."

. . .


So how much difference is there in costs? . . .The DART board, meeting in closed sessions, has kept the exact costs of the natural-gas proposal under wraps.

. . .



Mr. Pickens is the largest shareholder in Clean Energy, the largest provider of natural gas in North America. That firm would provide the fuel and fueling stations if DART decides to buy the natural-gas-powered buses.





Read more: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/120208dnmetdartbuses.1d690e9.html

---

Pickens wants Dallas to buy his buses, is keeping the costs secret and cannot provide any evidence his buses are environmentally cleaner than diesel. So why buy his buses?

"Because it's ours," Mr. Pickens said, noting that America, and North Texas in particular, is awash in natural gas.

With Pickens being the largest shareholder.

[ananda]

1. Ick..

.. I feel slimed on.

Pickens is a slimy snake all right.

[Fovea]

2. I would imagine that particulates are lower.

Parafin and carbon soot.
That alone would be good news to asthmatics.

Not sure on CO2. Which is the most efficient.
And if we are using nat gas, why not batter/tramline/gas/fuelcell?
That way you'd have an energy flexible bus.
That puppy could also help stabilize the grid at non peak hours.

[Dogmudgeon]

3. What happened to the gre-a-a-t progressive hero T. Boone Pickens?

One ad blitz with windmills and the left goes ga-ga.

I guess that Halloween mask of democratic progressivism got a might too snug for old Boone.

--p!

[Robbien]

4. Who went ga-ga?

No one here at DU in the Boone threads that I have visited. Nor have I seen any Pickens lovers on the many other leftie sites discussing environmental issues.

[HereSince1628]

5. For Pickens it was always about marketing natural gas

For those of us who weren't born yesterday his motives were blatantly obvious.

That doesn't mean that just because someone is positioned to make a fortune there cannot be a nexus between environmental policy and marketing of a resource. It means government managers need to be careful.

[Beausoleil]

7. Pickens plan was always about

generating electricity from wind power (in which Pickens has invested a load) and diverting the then-freed-up natural gas to power all vehicles in North America (using Pickens' natural gas). It would work very well - for T. Boone. But we have to hurry, he'll only be around a few more years to enjoy his extra hundreds of billions.

[FloriTexan]

6. Screw more buses...

We need more rail and much larger transit infrastructure than buses can give us. I live in Rowlett and we have been paying into DART for freakin' years and all we have to show for it are a few rush hour express buses. The closest park and ride buses are full as it the train station in Garland where you have to get there at 6 pm to get a parking place. They can add all the buses they want but if you have no where to catch them they are worthless. The train was supposed to come to Rowlett in 2005. Then it was 2009, Now its like 2012 or 2015. WTF! They say ridership is down here in my little city but its because taking the bus at rush hour only is not much of an option. For me personally, I would still have to change to a second bus to get near my office too.

Sorry for the rant but I just spent 1.5 hours in traffic getting to downtown Dallas (15 little miles and) because I don't have another option right now. The commute is usually 45 minutes but there was a wreck on another freeway today that affected I-30. I'm able to car pool a little but the HOV lanes are so full now that they are clogged. There's more than a few of us in Rowlett that want the train now or want our money back, with interest.

I have always worked downtown Dallas and when I lived in Dallas I rode DART - Always! I wish it was still a viable option.

[WriteDown]

8. Have you missed the HUGE DART light rail

expansion that is going on? Rowlett was just decided to not be as far along on the schedule as Mequite, Carrolton, etc.

[FloriTexan]

10. do you have a link?

I haven't missed it. I've been watching it go right by us. I work right next to it. What decade or century can Rowlett expect rail now? Its nonsense.

[WriteDown]

12. Sure....

www.dart.org. Deep Ellum is almost done and East Dallas is pretty close as well. To be honest, I don't think Rowlett is high on the priority list. The airport is probably a more universal goal.

[FloriTexan]

17. I knew that...

I guess our tax dollars aren't equivalent to those paid by other cities. We have been paying into DART since before 1996. For our tax dollars we have seen our services cut and even the rail plans have been cut. I hear they are even removing the bathrooms and a/c from the terminal if it ever gets here. They also cut funding for the bridge over Rowlett Road. Thanks. Give us an hour long train ride and no restrooms. That's really smart. Dallas is taking our money and using it in Dallas and other areas. Frankly, I don't appreciate it and neither do my fellow Rowlettians. 190 will be here before we get rail. Perhaps it is time to get on our City Council and give up on DART and sue for our money back and use it to do what Denton did and develop our own transportation system with our own buses serving the Dallas area. We sure can use it for other things that will provide us with a return on our tax dollars a lot quicker. DART my butt - it should be SLOWBOATTOCHINA.

We are on the fringe of Dallas County and share part of our city with Rockwall County. There are a lot of people that commute in from Rockwall, Royce City, Fate and even Greenville. We could see park and ride at Dalrock and I30 for starters. They can't make any money out here until they do something out here.

[WriteDown]

18. Personally....

I think we should encourage people to live closer to Dallas. Rowlett, McKinney, etc. just encourage sprawl and longer commutes. There is a lot of nice land right around Dallas that is underutilized.

[FloriTexan]

20. People are moving back into Dallas

simply because of gas prices and the lack of a transit system outside of Dallas. A lot of people are now living in downtown Dallas. Unfortunately, the majority of us can't simply pick up and move. The housing market here has been pretty stable compared to the rest of the country but there are a lot of empty houses and houses that have been on the market for a couple of years now in my neighborhood. I live in Dallas County. DART gets my tax money and I spend 5 days a week working in Dallas. I just want to see us get a return, soon, on our investment. I'm tired of the BS excuses and Rowlett is getting tired of waiting. Fair is fair.

[justabob]

21. ot, but any idea where they are moving in Dallas?

I know the housing market is horrible, but there are no less than 100 vacant units (whether house, condo, townhome, new or old) within 3 blocks of me,10 on my block alone... with 100's more still being built. Granted, it is Uptown/Oak Lawn and higher end than some other neighborhoods, but there is still an ok range of options price wise.... especially with reduced prices and other incentives.... Just curious.

[FloriTexan]

25. Lots of reasons...

With the gas prices DART ridership has skyrocketed. If you can get a parking space at a park and ride on the cities fringes or suburbs the buses and trains are standing room only. Home prices here are stable and the economy here is still pretty strong but the strain is starting to show. Downtown Dallas has worked very hard to make the downtown area livable, lots of refurbished office buildings to condos, added parks and dog parks and even a grocery store now. Downtown Dallas is also the main hub of DART rail and bus lines and if you live downtown you can now easily commute out to the burbs as opposed to the other way around now. It was the opposite for years. After 6 pm on a weeknight downtown Dallas was dead. Lots of sustainable nightlife downtown too. Deep Ellum was big for a while but it is sinking, since Victory Park has come along. 10 years ago you could live in Rowlett or similar bedroom communities (where there are few jobs) and commute easily to Dallas. The burbs have very little in the way of jobs as most of them are still in the Dallas area. There are still very few jobs out this way but now the commute to Dallas is horrifying. I moved to Rowlett thinking the train was going to be there with in a few years. Its been 15 plus now and there's not much I can do about it. Very few travel options on this side of town. Texas is so wide open you have to have a car. Moving closer to downtown Dallas gives you a lot more options.

[WriteDown]

27. Good point...

I would like to see a whole lot more focus on East and South Dallas. Hopefully, the TRP will help though. The Audubon center is already nice.

[justabob]

30. me too

South Dallas in particular has been neglected for FAR too long, and really south of I 30 is some of the most beautiful land in the county.... there is actual topography there. I don't want to see 'gentrification' though. My neighborhood has been subjected to that for the last several years and it is heartbreaking to watch.

[WriteDown]

31. Unfortunately...

I don't see how they can afford gentrification. I can already see it following the same path as San Francisco and Seattle. Tax values are going to skyrocket in those areas and will drive a lot of the original owners out.

[justabob]

36. well, that is the good news

I wouldn't wish gentrification on anyone... for the reasons you mention and so many more.

[WriteDown]

38. Whoops....

I meant that gentrification is unavoidable. That area will probably look like White Rock soon.

[justabob]

39. i thought so

Why is it so hard to develop/redevelop nice communities for people who make less than a several hundred thousand dollars year.... *sigh* I know I know... *shakes head*

[FloriTexan]

32. Southside already has rail and bus routes...

for most of the DART contributing communities. They stopped in Garland going East and Garland has reached capacity. That ought to give them a clue that they need to finish on out to Rowlett and complete the deal. Dallas has room for a large park and ride at Robertson Park at Dalrock and I30 on Lake Ray Hubbard. They could take a LOT of cars off the streets right there. Instead, this huge park sits unkempt and virtually unused. Dallas wants top dollar for that land to build more gated communities. Rowlett has tried to buy it for years to develop it as a marina complex like The Harbor, etc. Too bad Dallas can't get utilities out there without purchasing easements from Rowlett or Garland. Since DART things we don't need restrooms, perhaps paving over this site and making it a parking lot to green our communities would be the cheapest, most economically feasible idea yet. Just a thought.

[WriteDown]

46. Here's another question....

How exactly is Rowlett contributing to DART? I am fairly sure its not property taxes. Is it through sales tax?

Just looked at DART’s 2007 annual report and the majority of their money comes from sales tax. They also get “capital contributions” from “federal and local governments” but doesn’t really break it out or explain that in more detail. Statement of cash flows shows “Federal Capital Contributions” of $96.57M while the notes show contributions from federal and local gov’ts totaled $96.98M. I guess that means the other $410k came from local gov’t?

[WriteDown]

28. Also....

I can't think of a single DART station that has bathrooms. Don't feel bad about that. I imagine there are some security problems there. If I had my wish, I would love to see the DART rail operate past midnight.

[FloriTexan]

33. Shit happens...

to be blunt. You can't expect people to drive to you, wait for a bus and then have them sit on a train or a bus in traffic for an hour without the common courtesy of a simple restroom. This is not a third-world country.

[WriteDown]

37. I used to ride the DART from the Parker Station(Plano)

to downtown Dallas. Approximately 45 minutes. I did that for 2 years. Never had a problem.

[FloriTexan]

43. You were lucky...

you've probably never ridden the bus with a pregnant woman when it gets stuck in traffic on the HOV lane (the one on I30 with no way off of it) and no restroom in sight? It isn't pretty. I was on one that got stuck on the HOV lane because of a fatal wreck a few years ago and this happened. We didn't move for over an hour. Once we did it took another hour to get to the park and ride. No restroom on the bus, no restroom at the station. Now swap that pregnant woman for someone who ate a bad lunch somewhere that day, or who came down sick while at work, or someone with a bladder infection or prostate issues. I could go on.

[WriteDown]

45. Still odd though...

I used to commute 2 hours in NY in my car through insane traffic. There was no bathrooms on the LIE either. If I had to stop, I tried to find a Mickey D's or a gas station. On the DART rail you can do the same thing at most stops with a few exceptions.

[FloriTexan]

47. Not on an "express" bus....

and apparently not even on the lite rail since I hear there are no restrooms at any of the stations. Express buses go from point A to point B with very few if any stops in between. The I30 HOV lane is not one you can slide into and out of along the way - you have two entry points and one exit in the morning and only one place on in the evening and 3 exits in the afternoon. It is really easy to get stuck in it and not be able to exit. I've driven by it or on it for 10 years now and have seen it happen several times.

I think its insane not to provide restrooms at rail stations and park and rides. Blows my mind.

[WriteDown]

48. I still think its a security issue.

On the LIRR there wasn't a bathroom at my rail station, but there were in the NYC subways.

[crispini]

23. 2012

4.5 miles, Downtown Garland to Downtown Rowlett; 1 station

Downtown Garland Station to Downtown Rowlett Station (4.5 miles)
Opens: December 2012
Station: Downtown Rowlett Station

I agree, you guys have been paying into DART for a long time and have gotten very little out of it. I'd hold your DART board members' feet to the fire and see what comes out of it.

[FloriTexan]

26. Thanks...

The only comfort I can derive is that Rowlett is the end/beginning of the line so at least I'll have a seat on the way to down town ;)

[Robbien]

13. Joe Biden is pushing for more rail structure in the economic stimulus plan

Per Atrios, Joe Biden said this at the governors meeting:
http://www.eschatonblog.com/

On infrastructure specifically, we have a huge opportunity. China invests 7-9 percent of its GDP in infrastructure projects. We invest just 1 percent. There’s a reason they have a mag-lev train that can go over 200 miles per hour.

I may have a bit of a pro-rail bias, but think of the jobs we could create – in both construction and innovation – if we made similarly bold investments here.

We should fast-track funding for the thousands of ready-to-go projects across the country that can quickly put people back to work and lay the foundation for long-term growth.

In the longer term, we are calling for the creation of a new National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank that will help us make the investments we need to build a 21st century transportation system – while creating jobs and taking the politics out of infrastructure spending. And it has the added benefit of making American business more competitive in the world.

[FloriTexan]

19. We need it.

Now. We needed it 10 years ago.

[karynnj]

35. Kerry just introduced a bill on high speed rail that he has worked on for a long time

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/11/kerry_pushes_hi.html I think Biden may be speaking of Kerry's bill and if so it may mean that Obama is in agreement with it. (I haven't heard Obama say rail when he speaks of infastructure - so this is good news.)

He makes the same point that Biden does on jobs and argues for the environmental benefits as well. Here's a video where he speaks of the overall idea of creating infastructure job in an economic speech - http://www.jkmediasource.org/node/163 (He speaks of infastructure about 39 minutes in)

(local article - http://www.thedailyitemoflynn.com/articles/2008/10/29/news/news03.txt

[LanternWaste]

49. I think a combo system would serve DFW quite well for now...

I think a combo system (intra-city buses, and much more light rail) would serve DFW quite well for now...

I'd love to see more than the one or two transitshgoing between Dallas and Fort Worth currently, or even between Arlington and the two majors. AFAIK, there's one stop in FW to take two buses/day to Dallas.

And as Arlington doesn't even currently have a bus system... :eyes: (Yes, I know they finally voted for it, but that vote was relatively recently in the grand scheme of north Texas local politics and the COG crap...)

Edited because COG and GOC are two different things.... :blush:

[WriteDown]

9. What's interesting....

is that Dallas already uses a ton of natural gas vehicles in their city fleet. You can see them all over the place.

[pattmarty]

11. Pickens is a shitbag, profiteering, shameless ass-hole!!!!!

[Joe Chi Minh]

14. Not a good source of type gas for the ozone layer, either, methane.

[Lance_Boyle]

15. Use biodiesel and FUCK T-BONE!

What an asshat. I don't hold out much hope for Dallas doing the right thing. Ever.

[WriteDown]

16. This isn't about bio-diesel....

this is an argument between traditional diesel and natural gas. How many cities in the US use bio-diesel for their fleet?

[Lance_Boyle]

22. tons

and it makes no sense to leave biodiesel out of this discussion. The diesel bus fleet CAN use a cleaner-burning alternative fuel. The natgas fleet cannot. Options are good. Even if they start with ULSD, they can find a local biodiesel supplier (hell, ask Willie Nelson, he's got a production facility in-state) and transition with zero cost. Natgas is a stupid, self-limiting option. No wonder T-BONE insists on it.

[KamaAina]

41. New Orleans is moving toward it

http://www.norta.com/showadvisories.php?id=292

Notice is hereby given that sealed proposals will be received by the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority for the supply and delivery of biodiesel fuel.

Proposals will be received by Don Hyde in the RTA Trailer Complex at 2817 Canal St., New Orleans, LA, 70119, until 4:00 P.M., Tuesday, December 2, 2008.

Hurry! You've still got three hours...

[lithiumbomb]

24. natural gas _was_ cleaner

However diesel emissions regulations have changed significantly in the past 10 years. So, 10 years ago, Natural Gas was probably the cleaner solution. Today it may still be, or may not, I don't know. If it's a wash, Diesel busses are certainly cheaper and more efficient.

[Robbien]

29. The article said that the improvements in diesel has made it equal to/cleaner than NG

So a wash it is.

[FloriTexan]

34. Isn't diesel more expensive than gasoline now?

Wouldn't light rail be cheaper?

[Robbien]

40. Rail would be cheaper, but first one needs to put down the rail infrastructure

And yes diesel is more expensive than gas per gallon, but diesel is more efficient getting more than twice the MPG that reg gas gets.

[FloriTexan]

42. That's partly my point...

The rail in Rowlett is already there. The park and ride bus stations is already there. They just need to expand the parking and build the terminal. Since they are no longer building the bridge and just plan to cut across traffic instead, how much could it cost? Its been 15 years already and we've got another 4 to go. Build it and we will come. We are just waiting. There already isn't enough parking at the park and ride terminals. If you can't add more cars to the parking lots, what good are more buses?

[Javaman]

44. t-bone head strikes again.

Go see the movie fuel. In the doc, it's pointed up how algae farms that produce bio-diesel can be stet up at a low cost right next to water treatment plants to provide fuel for city buses.

so little time, so few brains.