Auto bailout talks collapse over union wages

[Newsjock]

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers has collapsed in the Senate after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said he was "terribly disappointed" about the demise of an emerging bipartisan deal to rescue Detroit's Big Three.

He spoke shortly after Republicans left a closed-door meeting where they balked at giving the automakers federal aid unless their powerful union agreed to slash wages next year to bring them into line with those of Japanese carmakers.

Republican Sen. George V. Voinovich of Ohio, a strong bailout supporter, said the UAW was willing to make the cuts -- but not until 2011.

Read more: http://www.clickondetroit.com/automotive/18244635/detail.html

---

Source: Detroit Free Press

WASHINGTON – It appeared late tonight that a deal to rescue Detroit’s automakers was off.

Several Republican senators seen leaving a meeting on a proposed settlement said the deal was off following hours of negotiations. The problem, they said, returned to the contentious issue of forcing the UAW to accept wages and benefits equal to those paid by foreign automakers in the United States.

Sen. Bob Corker, a Tennessee Republican and leader of the opponents to the proposed rescue plan for Chrysler LLC and General Motors, wanted the UAW to accept parity with foreign automakers by the end of next year. The UAW, said people who were in the caucus meeting, wanted to hold off on reaching that level of parity until their current contracts with the Detroit automakers expire in 2011.

Republican members of the Senate apparently decided that was unacceptable.

Read more: http://freep.com/article/20081211/BUSINESS01/81211112

---

Source: Detroit News

... Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky emerged from a meeting with fellow Republicans saying no agreement was reached.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., could still seek votes Friday on Democratic proposals. But with any legislation requiring 60 votes to pass, significant Republican support would be needed, and there was little optimism for passage.

With GM and Chrysler each in apparent danger of collapse within weeks, their only chance of survival may be the Bush administration, which could tap the remains of the $700 billion Wall Street bailout package, something the White House has rejected for weeks. About $15 billion remains in the fund.

Corker's original proposal would have demanded that the UAW accept wage and benefit rollbacks to reach par with workers at foreign automakers' factories. Democrats and the UAW strongly opposed the idea of specifying pay and benefit levels, but Republicans refused to accept Democratic counter-proposals.

Read more: http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081211/AUTO01/812110451

[GoddessOfGuinness]

1. Before workers take pay cuts, Congress should take a pay cut.

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

16. absolutely

any public servant who signs on for any program that will LOWER American wages should set an example and be the first one to cut their wages to that of the lowest paid public servant in any country on this earth.

[stillcool]

26. A pay-cut from which industry?

[defendandprotect]

30. Exactly ---

[GoddessOfGuinness]

46. Bob Corker's salary is $169,300

I wonder what that breaks down to in terms of an hourly wage. I wonder if that figure includes his insurance, pension, and paid vacation. I wonder, I wonder.

[Ganja Ninja]

78. That comes out to $81.40 per hour.

40 hours X 52 weeks = 2080
$169,300.00/2080 = $81.40
And that doesn't include expenses and benefits and their retirement plan

Reducing that to $70.00 an hour sounds reasonable to me since that's what they claim is paying too much for an auto worker.
2080 hours X $70.00 = $145,600.00
That's a 14% cut in pay.
A similar cut to their fringe benefits should also be looked at.

[struggle4progress]

79. That salary doesn't include insurance, pension, or other perks

[defendandprotect]

103. And how many of us get to vote on our own salary increases...???

Plus, as I recall, when they increase their salaries, it

automatically increases salaries of Supremes and ithers--??

We have two Chaplains, as well, whose salaries/benefits we pay for!

[conspirator]

125. I was going to propose a CEO wage cut, and profits cut.

Why are the workers the ones to get screwed?

[RedRocco]

128. I've long said

that congresscritters should be paid the median wage for their district.

[mediaman007]

2. Did the Republicans offer the unions national health insurance like

the Japanese get? Probably not!

In the Japanese health care system, healthcare services, including free screening examinations for particular diseases, prenatal care, and infectious disease control, are provided by national and local governments. Payment for personal medical services is offered through a universal health care insurance system that provides relative equality of access, with fees set by a government committee. People without insurance through employers can participate in a national health insurance program administered by local governments. Since 1973, all elderly persons have been covered by government-sponsored insurance. Patients are free to select physicians or facilities of their choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Japan

[JDPriestly]

42. What healthcare to Toyota, Honda and Kia workers in the U.S. get?

Of course, they do not have the huge number of retirees with healthcare supplemental rights to deal with. Does anyone know however, how the foreign carmakers insure their workers here? Do they pay for insurance for the workers' families? For the workers?

[totodeinhere]

50. They provide health insurance benefits to workers and their families, but...

those benefits aren't nearly as lucrative as the benefits that the US auto makers have to pay. Also, workers at the foreign owned plants get very limited health care benefits after they retire, whereas the employees of domestic auto makers get substantial benefits after they retire.

[Hannah Bell]

58. japanese & us autoworker healthcare benefits are pretty much equivalent.

the main difference is in retiree costs, but it's only about $13/hr/worker. That's about 2 billion, assuming 75,000 GM workers on a standard workyear.

http://www.researchrecap.com/index.php/2008/12/10/autoworkers-pay-only-small-factor-in-detroits-problems/

gm dropped healthcare for its white-collar retirees back in 2004. They now get medicare.

In their 2007 contract, they off-loaded blue-collar health care to the unions in return for several one-time only payments to a health trust (which they're now saying they might not be able to make on time).

The total cost difference between US & Japanese total direct labor cost is less than $1000/vehicle. The biggest part of the vehicle cost is non-labor - supplier goods, overhead, etc.

GM could give all its global retirees, workers & dependents $40K/yr + spend 5 billion/yr on health care & it would still only be 25% of their total income, which is $178 billion/yr.

[JDPriestly]

66. Thanks. Of course, CEO salaries are part of overhead.

Remember, U.S. companies get tax incentives that make them want to bloat their costs and thereby lower their taxes.

This is good information and clarifies the issues I was interested in. Retiree costs are not a significant part of the price difference between U.S. and foreign cars. Figured as much.

[Sex Pistol]

121. GM has no income--they lost $37.8 billion last year.

Obviously, there are no easy answers to this problem.

But I believe that the UAW will eventually make the necessary concessions. The only questions are how long the government will prolong the inevitable and how much money they will waste prolonging it. :shrug:

[JDPriestly]

62. Why do the UAW workers need healthcare benefits after they retire?

Don't they have Medicare? About how much does a UAW pension pay for a person who worked for and auto company for, say 25 years and who retired at, say 58?

[bluecollarcharlie]

63. Why are you asking this??

If you are asking this as another way to say "screw 'em, let them fail" then please declare that up front. That way your contribution can be put in the "Closet Freeper" file.

[JDPriestly]

65. No. I just want to know how this works. I think a lot of people

are probably wondering the same thing. I know others who get Medicare and also have to buy supplemental insurance. I am on Medicare, but I have Kaiser which is fairly cheap. I realize it is not available everywhere but it is the closest thing to single-payer (which I would prefer) that we have. I am wondering why the automobile industry doesn't have something like Kaiser in Michigan. Or does it? How much does the insurance for the retirees cost per person? It seems to me it should not be that much. My Kaiser costs me around $100 each month, but it is taken directly out of my Social Security before I even get it. I don't have a pension, so I don't know how this works.

Do UAW members not get full Medicare benefits for some reason?

[Hannah Bell]

105. They paid in for benefits; it was supposedly deferred compensation,

$ they otherwise would have got in wages. So to take away the benefit would = stealing from them.

However, if you can get Kaiser for $100/mo, then GM should be able to get it for that or less on a group plan. There's no reason to take health care benefit away from their retirees.

Running the figures tells me GM's total labor/benefits cost isn't the main reason for its problems.

[JDPriestly]

115. Kaiser is only available in certain areas.

Kaiser was at one time thought to be a sort of cheap universal healthcare solution for anyone. The idea kind of got lost in the shuffle when other for profit HMOs entered the market without much oversight in many states. HMOs became just another way to take a cut from people's suffering.

[Hannah Bell]

106. You're jumping to conclusions. I think he's asking because he's trying to get

an independent sense of the situation, instead of just assuming the media, the car corps, the UaW, will tell him "the truth".

[struggle4progress]

81. Because they fought for the benefits? Because everybody deserves such benefits? What's the problem?

[TommyO]

102. Because we don't have a universal, single payer healthcare system

[sakabatou]

3. I dare not ask...

how much more Republicans can screw America.

[napi21]

4. FWIW, check out this link. I never knew this benefit existed.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/01/uaw-considers-dropping-job-bank-for-idled-workers/

YES, it's a GREAT benefit, but if the survival of the company you work for AND those of the suppliers, it just might be time to rethink.

[w4rma]

8. It doesn't matter. The Republicans want them in bankruptcy, they'll keep demanding new things.

In 23 days Reid can call the new Senate session and Democrats can get a better deal then. In 40 days Obama will be President and Democrats can get an even better deal then.

[LiberalFighter]

22. They lie about the japan companies not having job banks.

They provide wages when they lay them off for short periods.

But then again they make it up by requiring their workers to attend quality meetings without pay. And they use sweatshop labor in Japan.

[Sex Pistol]

113. Sweatshop labor in Japan...? You mean China...?

[LiberalFighter]

116. Japan uses sweatshop labor too.

[Hannah Bell]

117. Japan has sweatshop labor. 1/3 of the Japanese workforce is "casual,"

i.e. temp/pt-time, insecure.

[Hannah Bell]

61. gm took in 178 billion dollars last year. you think they're failing because of a frigging JOB BANK?

get real. They made 178 BILLION & their entire global workforce = 266,000 people. Retirees = about 350,000. Make it 700,000 total with dependents.

You can give every one of them $40K/year + $1000/mo in health care insurance for 36 billion.

If you paid all 700,000 employees & retirees (even the ones in low-wage foreign countries) $28/hr ($58,240/yr) + $1000/mo for health care, it would only cost you 49 billion/year, or 27% of total income for ALL labor costs.

I doubt very many retirees are currently getting $58K/yr.

I don't get why people eat up the propaganda & never run the numbers for themselves.

[bluecollarcharlie]

64. Honda has one....

...so does the DU favorite, Toyota. In fact, it was because they have them that we did too. I guess everything Honda and Toyota do ins't the bestest greatest thing anymore, huh?

[struggle4progress]

82. That's more than a benefit: it's a protection against union-busting

Whenever the companies can, they'll furlough workers and bring in lower paid replacements: the point of the job bank is the company can't save money by doing that

[Efilroft Sul]

5. I don't recall investment bankers required to take a pay cut for their bailout.

See, the government requiring that step would be socialism. But these autoworkers are making scads of money because of their socialist unions.

:sarcasm:

The Republicans are lower than whale shit decomposing in the Marianna Trench.

[Zenlitened]

12. Yep, it would be wrong for the government...

... to interfere with The Free Market by micro-managing salaries and staffing on Wall Street.

Main Street, on the other hand... :grr:

Republican = Filth.

[Citizen Number 9]

56. Of course they did.

Weren't dividends limited on a number of the bailout packages?

That's going to reduce their compensation right there.

[Efilroft Sul]

83. I'm talking the average workers at the investment firms, not the execs.

The Republicans are going after the pay of the average workers in the auto industry, not the execs. They never went after the pay of the average Wall Street workers when the banking bailout was passed.

Now if you want to quibble about who is and who isn't an average worker in an investment firm, go ahead.

[pampango]

86. I think you're right about the pay of average workers in investment firms, but haven't thousands

of them been laid off since the Wall Street bailout.

In retrospect the financial industry's regular workers might wish someone had gone after their pay, if it meant that their jobs might have been preserved. Repubs, by shooting down this bill, are essentially doing the same thing to auto workers by saying "Fine, there will be no requirement to reduce the compensation of the average auto worker, but watch out for the resulting layoffs."

[Citizen Number 9]

97. Yeah, that's exactly what has happened

Pluswhich, it would've been harder to go after the surviving Wall Street workers pay precisely because they are not unionized like the auto workers.

Someone has made a terrible error here. We are entering a substantial recession and the autoworkers should've been ready to negotiate. In my local area I have met lots of workers from small business who have taken paycuts in order to keep things bumping along and stay employed. Even though the autoworkers have traditionally had a good gig, why would they be exempt from these effects? Especially with the big 3 so close to bankruptcy it seems like a no-brainer.

[SammyWinstonJack]

85. And yet some of these UAW members vote for the lower than whale shit repugs, do they not?

Mind boggling. Maybe now those who do will finally wake up and realize that the lower than whale shit repugs ARE NOT their friends. Or not. :shrug:

[jwirr]

6. OF those three senators from the south who are sticking their foot

in the door which are going to be back in Jan 09?

[Plucketeer]

7. I simply CAN NOT WAIT until these GOP thieves

are marginalized to where they're about as intrusive as a house fly. Here's hoping the next round of elections grinds them even FURTHER into obscurity.

[gizmo1979]

20. The union will be blamed

I can hear the chorus now"greedy UAW kills bailout".Assholes shelby needs a lesson in what it means to be American.What's more Unamerican than killing Chevrolet?

[Plucketeer]

34. I just took the time to HAND WRITE these idiots

I told them they should run for office in Iraq. They've had NO qualms about pouring our money onto the thirsty sands there. Maybe they could get a seat in the Parliment. Ass Holes.

[saigon68]

84. True--- the Pukes in Cogress are out to bust UNIONS

That's what this is all about

[glowing]

9. Reid needs to force the bill that the house gave them.

They do not need 60 votes.. I dare that asshole senator that fillibusters or vetos.. We need to make a Hall of Shame for our reps in Congress. The asshole awards.. The who hates Americans wall of shame. Let everyone know who's tied to who and why they hate America more than Bin Laden.

[Zenlitened]

15. You know that. I know that. We ALL know that, except for...

... Harry Reid. I can't recall an instance where he's ever forced a vote, ever forced the membership to go on record "yea" or "nay."

It's like he doesn't know the first thing about parliamentary tactics. Or is too concerned with bipartisan hugs and sunshine and rainbows to actually employ those tactics. Or... well, I don't even want to speculate about the other possibilities. :(

[depakid]

37. The man has no credibility

He's unable or unwilling to play the game to win- whether through parliamentary procedures or retaliatory tactics that affect pet projects and appropriations in other senator's states.

Republicans (and Dems like Lieberman know that).

He's barked without biting and caved in to the far right so many times that no one takes him seriously.

[Sex Pistol]

114. Yes, they do need 60--no cloture, no vote.

[doc03]

10. Now is the time for all the corporate Union bosses to

grow a pair and lay it on the line, shut the f----g country down like they should have back in 1980 with the firing of the air traffic controllers.

[WheelWalker]

32. Agreed. Shut it all down. If you can't stand up, shut up.

[doc03]

38. As a union member for over thirty years the union bosses have

more in common with the corporate executives than us rank and file. Most of them never worked a day in the plant for 25 or 30 years if ever. On their days off they pal around at the Country Club with management or have box seats at the football game paid for by management. They make six figure incomes then put us out on strike and give us $40 a week strike pay then end up settling for what the company offered in the first place. That's why the unions have been on the run for 30 years.

[JDPriestly]

48. Why don't you just vote them out?

I'm not being sarcastic. How does that work? What power do the union bosses have if the members can't trust them and don't support them?

[doc03]

52. Simple the outgoing President endorses his successor

and rarely does anyone ever oppose them. If they do the common practice is the establishment brands them as communists and they say you will lose your job if you vote for them. Look up (Jock Yablonski) he opposed the establishment UMWA candidate back in the 60s. Chicago politicians could learn things from the Unions when it comes to corrupt politics.

Here's another one to check out on Wikipedia, Ed Sadlowski was the only person that I remember that seriously challenged the establishment candidate for the USWA in the last 40 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Sadlowski

[Hannah Bell]

59. company union since the 50s.

[JDPriestly]

47. UAW should simply strike now and close down the country.

If GM goes, a lot of things go. GMAC could be hurt badly.

. . . .

GMAC, which has been forced to cover rising losses, wants to become a bank holding company so that it can tap funding sources including the Treasury Department's financial rescue program. But the company said in a securities filing that its investors are refusing to provide necessary financial support for the transformation, and that it will abandon the effort if the investors do not sign up by Friday.

Analysts said the company could be forced to file for bankruptcy protection if it cannot broker a compromise.

The consequences for car buyers, auto dealers and General Motors itself would be significant. GMAC, through September, still provided the financing for 80 percent of GM vehicles shipped to dealers and for 35 percent of GM vehicles purchased by customers. GM sold a 51 percent stake in GMAC to Cerberus in 2006.
. . . .

GMAC's problems began with the collapse of the housing market; one of its subsidiaries, Residential Capital, was one of the nation's largest mortgage companies. As the economy worsened, borrowers also started defaulting on car loans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/10/AR2008121003240_2.html?sid=ST2008121003974&s_pos=

GMAC Financial is in turn owned by Cerberus.

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2008/12/gmac-on-verge-o.html

Cerberus also owns Chrysler

"Our goal now will be to prove that Daimler made a mistake because we're going to make successful." — UAW President Ron Gettelfinger, supporting Cerberus Capital Management's acquisition of Chrysler after his initial opposition to a private equity sale, reported in The New York Times.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_22/c4036012.htm

As for Cerberus's management:

Dan Quayle joined the Cerberus Advisory Board in 2000, and currently serves as Chairman. Cerberus is one of the world's leading private investment firms, with over $16 billion in committed capital and offices in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Atlanta, London, Baarn,(The Netherlands), Frankfurt, Osaka,and Tokyo. As Chairman of Cerberus Global Investments, Dan Quayle has been actively involved in new business sourcing and marketing for Cerberus in North America, Asia and Europe. His extensive global network of public sector and private sector decision-makers, combined with his investment expertise, have significantly contributed to the growth of Cerberus. Dan Quayle has offices in New York and Arizona; He regularly travels throughout the US, Europe and Asia to meet with the heads of investment banks, corporations, buyout shops, potential investors, and other business leaders. His responsibilities include (1) ensuring that Cerberus stays at the forefront of deal flow activity, (2) facilitating Cerberus' entry into new markets and industries, and (3) fostering potential transaction partnerships.

http://www.vicepresidentdanquayle.com/biography.html

And Cerberus is sending Quayle to lobby in Congress:

Cerberus, the private company behind Chrysler, is investing $2 million in lobbying efforts to send big name players, like former VP Dan Quayle, to Congress.

With a temporary bailout deal just over the horizon for the Big Three, one of the companies is not like the others. In 2007, Cerberus Capital Management, a private equity investment firm specializing in rejuvenating dying companies, acquired Chrysler and its financing arm. The idea was to flip the company for big money, but turning around the company—with its product line full of big trucks and SUVs—was harder than expected.

Chrysler continues to lose money and cut jobs. Meanwhile, Cerberus refuses to inject its own capital into the failing automaker. Instead, the company is investing $2 million in lobbying efforts and sending every big name it can to Congress to pull strings for a bailout. The top two lobbyists are Dan Quayle and John Snow.

http://www.hybridcars.com/incentives-laws/high-power-lobbyists-pull-strings-chrysler-25327.html

So, Danny Boy, let's see ya work ya magic on Shelby, et al. Otherwise there may be a strike and that would not be nice for Cerberus.

Clearly, it isn't just UAW workers who have a stake in the bail-out. A few stalwart, conservative GOPers do too.

[DonCoquixote]

11. I realize poetry is a no no

But frankly, this quote sums up the GOP, not just in the last * years, but also their continued modus operandi:

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

And that especially goes out to the Southern Senators who aid and abet the Japanese auto companies who only went down to Dixie to screw their own unions.

[Trajan]

13. This is what it is about with them ....

KILL THE UNIONS !

Fucking assholes ....

These are the facts in my mind:

> Auto Workers pay their bills, pay off mortgages and buy cars - It is those WITHOUT unions that cannot pay their bills ...

> IF everyone was paid union wages - The economy would be an amazing wealth machine ....

The wannabe 'Joe The Plumber' conservative idiots have no idea how their philosophies are regressive and form a degenerate economic system that never fails to collapse ... But I am thinking there is a sector in the economy, among the very very rich, that want that, and that profit from the pain of others ....

THAT is what it is all about for them ...

[dbt]

14. White Southern Males Trying To Kill Unions.

McConnell, Dement, Corker, Shelby, et al,

Y'all are SO transparent. Please get up and FILIBUSTER so the rest of the country can see you for what you are!

[Zenlitened]

17. That's up to Harry Reid, unfortunately.

Will he bring this thing to a vote? Or, sensing a fight, will he meekly surrender so as to avoid bruising anyone's tender knuckles?

:shrug:

[grytpype]

18. Jesus H Christ. This is practically criminal of the Repugs.

:nuke:

[Citizen Number 9]

55. Doesn't it take

two to disagree?

[doc03]

19. Let the republican assholes force the auto companies

into bankruptcy, the bankruptcy judge can void the union contract. But there is a loophole, the Union can offer to work under the present contract and if the company says no it's a lockout and the Union can cease work and draw unemployment. We did it in 1985 and forced the company to fire their management and the bankers to sacrifice.

[KoKo]

21. Better it fails in Congress...force Bush to use TARP FUNDS...it's on his watch

this happened and let TARP provide the "Bridge Loan" and New Obama Administration push through a better deal.

Some of that Bail Out Money for Banks that was wasted has better use as Bridge Loan. Forces Chimpy to have to make it HIS decision...which is as it should be. He caused it.

[1gobluedem]

23. Corker, Shelby, and DeMint can go to hell

In fact, I hope they burn there. :mad:

[muntrv]

24. As usual, the pukes are anti-worker.

[2Design]

25. cheap labor conservatives are only happy to give themselves a raise

They make more and hour than most americans and they do not deserve it

[Better Believe It]

28. The Democrats Surrendered To The Republicans But Auto Workers Wouldn't

Seantor Reid and pals went along with the Republican "deal" that would drive the wages and benefits down to the level of non-union auto workers in the south.

The automakers CEO's thought that was a wonderful plan.

However, United Auto Workers refused to go along with that deal.

This whole thing has been about breaking the United Auto Workers Union even if it means bringing down the entire domestic auto industry.

Your free marketers seem to still be in charge in Congress.

[2Design]

54. yes the government has been trying to break unions - the teacher

unions with their no child left behind is a no win for school districts and is going to bust the bank - the unions are the only reason their was a middle class to start with

[YvonneCa]

27. Look at this...

... http://www.dol.gov/_sec/aboutosec/chao.htm

McConnell is married to Labor Secretary Chao.

[Plucketeer]

36. That DOES say alot, eh?

When you're literally in bed with the labor secretary........ LOL!

[HughBeaumont]

77. A labor secretary who's a Heritage fellow.

As in the Anti-worker, pro-Big Business Heritage foundation, a right wing think tank.

[1776Forever]

29. And believe me THEY will be judged! Here is the "church" of the Brethren of Greed -

[Historic NY]

31. How can the US government usurp a legal binding contract..

between management & its workers. This isn't about minimum wages, or other legal protections its about legally binding negotiated working conditions, a quid pro quo. If this is allowed to stand it could call into play all other union contracts nationwide from manufacturing to public service. Just WTF do they think they are. If the US Senate & its members are trying to shove this down the workers throats I'd dare say their will be a revolt not seen in decades in this nation. If those southern Asshole Senators think they can engineer an agreement that put the interest of the non-union workers over those that are unionized then the need to be marginalized by Harry Reid. So much for protecting the little guy the blue collar American worker. They want to keep the non-union workers in their states from organizing. Union busting...lets say we go do some Senate busting.

:rant:

[Third Doctor]

33. A paycut in this day and age?

Only people that (repub senators) who don't have to worry about making a living could be behind this. This has union busting writtn all over it and instead punishing management they are trying to punish the workers.

[Waiting For Everyman]

35. I hope the union doesn't cave to the Rethugs - this is just wrong.

Anyway, the new Congress comes in before the Inauguration, don't they? Early in January? Maybe the companies can hold that long.

[Citizen Number 9]

57. Holding your standard high is good,

But, putting the auto industry out of work is going to be very, very painful in real terms.

[EC]

39. How can this be?

Are they saying they cannot manage to get 10 repuges to vote for it? Or are there some Dems voting against it too, making it more than 10 repuges needed?

[Gregorian]

40. I may blab about how competitive we are with the rest of the world, but this is SICK.

I'm so pissed off. Trillions went to those crooks who own the financial institutions. And they're treating the workers like children.

I hate these people. And the country is going to suffer for it. It's not all Congress's fault. But the situation is glum. Worst 8 years ever.

[pipoman]

41. Dems would have more credibility

with labor if they had not abandoned labor in favor of anti US labor trade agreements. I don't believe labor has a clear party like we used to.

[kath]

44. ageed - dems used to be the party that supported labor, and working people in general.

Not anymore.
It's time for a real People's Party.

[doc03]

45. You're right Bill Clinton and the DLC are nearly as responsible for

the destruction of Unions and the manufacturing sector of the US as the Republicans.

[Doremus]

43. BOYCOTTALABAMANOW.COM

http://boycottalabamanow.com/



If GM and Chrysler go down I know a great place for the first riot.

[MilesColtrane]

49. Stick a fork in us.

Cause we're all done now.

I've never looked to kindly on the survivalist movement, but circumstances are beginning to make them look not so crazy.

Gold, ammo, and canned goods are starting to look like good investments.

[wroberts189]

51. 700b for WS ...no strings attached. Class warfare and were losing. n/t

[KakistocracyHater]

53. THIS is why I want ceo positions gone

illegal in the USA, gone forever. How are wage-cuts going to help the economy? The wealthy haven't picked up the slack from millions of middle class job cutss/off-shoring, this wreckage is based on a fake argument that trickle-down fails, I mean works:sarcasm: Give an electric start-up the factories for a few days a week, like a B-Picture would get A-List sets at night, let them mass-manufacture electric cars. That old man at the end of "Who Killed the Electric Car"-he already invented the needed battery.

The ceos have to go, or the middle class-choose.

[Dreamer Tatum]

60. You want CEOs gone because Republican senators killed the bailout?

Huh?

[Hannah Bell]

107. Who do the Senators work for, eh?

[Dreamer Tatum]

109. So, they work for the CEOs, but they killed the bailout?

Nice try.

[Hannah Bell]

110. They work for the majority owners of the corps. Killing the bailout, if it sends

the corp into bankruptcy or allows mass layoffs & benefit cuts, is not a downside for the owners; the corp can re-emerge. Insiders have plenty of foreknowledge to sell or buy shares as works best for them.

The CEOs will do fine too. There's always room at the top for lying thieves.

If you really think most Senators don't work for the ownership class...well.

[Dreamer Tatum]

111. That's some pretty medieval thinking

You've moved the goalposts and changed the game considerably, but whatever.

We have seen ample evidence that the CEOs are not only hat-in-hand, but are their own special version of
contrite. Those guys got slapped around by senators who know politics, but not shit about running a major
corporation.

If you think bankruptcy is not a downside for the owners of the company, then why not go buy a few hundred
shares of F and GM today? Why not a few hundred thousand, while you're at it?

Do you REALLY think there are any "insiders" at F or GM? I mean, 300 million people in the US are watching every
move they make. If any execs at F or GM knew this immense crash was coming and cashed out hugely, don't you
think we'd have heard about it by now?

The events of the past 60 days or so firmly establish who reports to whom, unless, of course, we find out that
some of that $2 trillion went to F or GM already. THEN we'd have some problems.

[Hannah Bell]

112. Sideshow.

[KakistocracyHater]

123. No, I want them gone because they use 'bailout money'

ONLY ON THEMSELVES-not the corporation, certainly NOT the workers-get it?

[DainBramaged]

68. Right, one hand clapping

Mass manufacture electric cars. OK. little tiny electric cars for everybody wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. You guys need to get a grip on reality.

[WriteDown]

100. What about CFO's....

or COO's? :eyes:

[KakistocracyHater]

124. ibid

see my other answers, I included them too, they are unnecessary, let the board democratically decide, perhaps.

[DainBramaged]

67. i SAID weeks AGO, their purpose was to break the UAW as a parting shot at the American worker

and all the cheap labor pretenders came out and tried to shut me up. Now the cat is out of the bag. For those who read this that think we should work for poverty level wages and toss our retirees in the street, go to hell, and worse.

[pipoman]

72. Nobody likes pay cuts

and I certainly wish it didn't have to come to that. Hysterical statements like "For those who read this that think we should work for poverty level wages and toss our retirees in the street, go to hell, and worse.", admittedly sticks in my craw. Poverty level? Really?

Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/11/auto.bailout/index.html

$3 or $4 is the difference between poverty and non-poverty when average wages for UAW is like $30+ per/hr? I contend that this contention is only made by people who have no clue what "poverty level" is.

The bottom line is that the big 3, if we are to believe them, are on the verge of bankruptcy. They are asking for assistance subsidized with the taxes paid by people who make less for similar work. What is our assurance that the big 3 bailout isn't simply a stop gap to prolong the inevitable? Keep doing the same things expecting different results? Financing the further exodus of American jobs to Mexico?

[DainBramaged]

73. So you're just a cheap labor pretender like the rEPUBLICANS?

Go to hell. NO ONE will be buying ANY cars from ANYONE.

[pipoman]

74. What a sorry explaination this is.

It sounds like a child stomping his foot demanding a candy bar. Failure to respond to my concern as someone who works just as fucking hard as any UAW person (likely harder) for a fraction of the compensation doesn't entice me to be supportive of your cause.

Just more hysteria...

[DainBramaged]

75. Go to hell, Con supporter, "Click"

You've supported the cheap Labor Cons throughout this entire debace, go to hell.

[pipoman]

118. No

What I support is people earning what their employers can pay them without going bankrupt. People loose their jobs every fucking day without exception because their employer goes bankrupt, their employer makes idiotic business decisions which ultimately results in failure of the company, or a myriad of other reasons companies go tits up. The government doesn't swoop in and rescue those companies. Again, this happens every fucking day! 99.99% of poor fuckers who are trying to support their families when their company goes under, don't even get what their employer owes them. Explain to me why .01% should get something not available to anyone else?

If...IF these companies get the bailout they are crying for and it isn't tied to requirements that the companies quit exporting American jobs, that is totally fucked. Oh...wait a minute...our party signed away the ability to do that already when they signed up (lips locked with the Pugs mind you) for the freedom to flee agreements..er..free trade agreements (NAFTA and GATT, etal).

You want to call me a con, go ahead. Need I remind you our own President Clinton's words? OK, I will:

Today the demonstrations in these two tents should show our country and show our Congress why we need NAFTA. In the next month before the vote, we've got to vigorously make this case to the American people. I was talking with Bob and the other steelworkers over at their exhibit over here, and I said, "You know, we figure that an enormous number of America's unions will actually pick up jobs if this agreement passes."

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/print.php?pid=47233

Yea, right..how has that worked out for ya?

I am all for labor and always have been. Too bad our party has abandoned you. I expected the Pugs to sell labor down the river, 20 years ago I would not have believed my party would...guess what? they did and now you are paying the price.

Now you go fuck your rude, childish, can't think beyond one sentence self.

[Romulox]

76. "Center/Right Underground"

[Nickster]

80. And the race to the bottom continues. I'm always amazed at Americans that rally behind the call for

other workers to take pay cuts because they have it soooooo good. Really? Why do Americans continue to want to drag down any jobs that pay a living wage? Do you think the cost of anything is going to go down? Is it going to get cheaper to live in the US? Haven't we seen this before in the IT industry? Keep cutting wages and then use the fact that no one wants to work for peanuts as further excuse to bring in cheaper foreign labor and continue to force our standard of living further into the toilet.

The UAW workers make 3-4 dollars an hour more than the foreign competition, I say good for them.

The UAW already has a two tier pay scale, 14 and 28 dollars. Ever try to raise a family on 14 dollars an hour?

[pipoman]

119. Honestly

I could give a flying fuck less if they don't want to accept lower wages to save their jobs as long as my tax dollars aren't subsidizing obviously unsustainable wages. The minute my money gets pumped into another dry hole like Iraq, I have every right to state my opinion. The wages have to be cut not because of an ailing economy, but because our power drunken, corrupt 'public servants' chose to "put us on an even playing field" with 3rd world countries at the urging (and payment) by the very companies who are now crying for my tax dollars.

The UAW workers make 3-4 dollars an hour more than the foreign competition, I say good for them.

I say good for them too as long as they are not asking for my tax money to subsidize the unsustainable. And we are not talking about 'foriegn competition', we are talking about other American workers. We should never have been put into a position of having to compete with 'foriegn competition', but alas we (80% of Americans) were ignored by our own elected officials (including a Dem President and a Dem controlled congress and Senate) in favor of doing just that. Now we are paying the piper.

The UAW already has a two tier pay scale, 14 and 28 dollars. Ever try to raise a family on 14 dollars an hour?

Yes, and less....far less.

[Zhade]

126. So if they exempted your pennies, you'd shut the fuck up?

Deal.

[Hannah Bell]

108. "planned failure"

[BelgianMadCow]

69. "...700 billion bailout fund...15 billion remains.." WHAAT?

I thought they were well over half, not 98% !!

:wow:

[pipoman]

71. You are misreading, it is just under 1/2 according to the last article in the OP

About $15 billion remains in the first $350 billion in the fund. Auto lobbyists said Thursday night that the Bush administration may seek to tie funding of automakers to winning approval from Congress to spend the next $350 billion.

[Divine Discontent]

70. REPUBLICAN SENATORS FIRST! I want Libs on TV to start saying that A LOT!!@!@!

bastard GOP pricks. they'd prefer the autoworkers make 9.80 an hour... once the Senators who simply read and talk all day for their huge salaries take a 75% pay cut, then the autoworkers should take another cut.


These designs on dozens of different shirts, button, stickers, mugs & more! http://www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable/1434671

[WriteDown]

87. My first thought

This wouldn't even BE AN ISSUE if more Americans actually looked for and bought American goods. I am always amazed at the willingness for a people to buy a new Toyota or Honda, but not even look at American manufacturers. The excuse usually starts "back in 83 I had this Ford...."

[kpete]

88. Senate Republicans kill auto bailout bill

Source: Los Angeles Times



A last-ditch attempt at compromise fails, increasing the risk of bankruptcy for one of Detroit's Big Three and more turmoil for the overall economy.

By Jim Puzzanghera
December 12, 2008

Reporting from Washington -- Republican opposition killed a $14-billion auto industry bailout plan in the Senate on Thursday night, putting the future of U.S. automakers in doubt and threatening to deliver another blow to the economy.

The measure died after a last-ditch effort by Senate Democratic leaders to strike a compromise that would have lured enough support to save the legislation, which was crafted in consultation with the White House.

The bill's failure raises the possibility of bankruptcy by one or more of Detroit's Big Three and puts new pressure on President Bush to authorize emergency loans for the automakers from the $700-billion Wall Street rescue fund, a step he has adamantly refused to take.

The collapse of General Motors, Chrysler or Ford -- along with many of their suppliers and dealers -- could throw hundreds of thousands more workers onto the growing unemployment rolls and further cloud the closing days of the Bush administration.

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-autobailout12-2008dec12,0,1660301.story

[TommyO]

89. I hope that the domestic manufacturers can survive until the next Congress is seated

They may have a slightly better chance next month.

[Pab Sungenis]

90. This would be an opportunity for both the CEO's and the UAW to step up to the plate.

UAW could offer some short-term temporary concessions, and the CEO's could forgo their pay, to bridge the little more than a month left before they can be helped properly.

[TommyO]

96. What else do you want your fellow American employees to give up?

[Pab Sungenis]

99. Honestly, nothing, but....

some short term gesture would help illustrate that the unions are not the problem here.

[liberal N proud]

91. Glad that headline says the Senate Republicans killed it

Places the blame squarely where it belongs.


Here is a little beef with the article:

The collapse of General Motors, Chrysler or Ford -- along with many of their suppliers and dealers -- could throw hundreds of thousands more workers onto the growing unemployment rolls and further cloud the closing days of the Bush administration.


Isn't it going to put more like 2 - 3 million out of work? Lets face the music here, it will be devastating.

[snappyturtle]

95. I agree that it will be like several million out of work with the failure

of the auto industry bill to pass. We must recognize that it will happen as already evidenced in the housing sector. I contend that's even a greater failure coming down the pipeline. When you think about all the suppliers involved in the housing industry to say nothing of the numbers of people involved in the sale of homes,I'm not expecting to see a domino effect but rather a complete crash of full employment numbers....just wait. imho

[spiritual_gunfighter]

92. If any of the big three go down

We as the voters should all remember who it was that let it happen. If 3 million jobs are lost as a result of this and the economy goes down the toilet, we should all know the names of the people who voted to kill this bill.

[mac56]

93. I hope it's noted that the Republicans shot this down.

How many GM/Ford/Chrysler dealership owners are Repubs?

[WriteDown]

101. I thought that too but....

looks like Kucinich also voted against it. I would love to know his reasons.

[ohio2007]

94. wonder if *co will step in this weekend and demand taxpayers $ bailout continue in some sort of

"Rule by Decree" power .

btw
Kucinich voted NO on bailouts..... so

[Lasher]

98. Senate Roll Call Vote 215

Senate roll vote on $14B auto bailout

The 52-35 roll call by which opponents on Thursday prevented the Senate from considering a $14 billion emergency bailout passed by the House for U.S. automakers.

On this vote, a "yes" vote was a vote to formally consider the House bill and a "no" vote was a vote to stop its progress. Supporters of the bailout needed 60 votes to advance it.

Voting "yes" were 40 Democrats, 10 Republicans and 2 independents.

Voting "no" were 4 Democrats and 31 Republicans.

Democrats Yes

Akaka, Hawaii; Bayh, Ind.; Bingaman, N.M.; Boxer, Calif.; Brown, Ohio; Byrd, W.Va.; Cantwell, Wash.; Cardin, Md.; Carper, Del.; Casey, Pa.; Clinton, N.Y.; Conrad, N.D.; Dodd, Conn.; Dorgan, N.D.; Durbin, Ill.; Feingold, Wis.; Feinstein, Calif.; Harkin, Iowa; Inouye, Hawaii; Johnson, S.D.; Klobuchar, Minn.; Kohl, Wis.; Landrieu, La.; Lautenberg, N.J.; Leahy, Vt.; Levin, Mich.; McCaskill, Mo.; Menendez, N.J.; Mikulski, Md.; Murray, Wash.; Nelson, Fla.; Nelson, Neb.; Pryor, Ark.; Reed, R.I.; Rockefeller, W.Va.; Salazar, Colo.; Schumer, N.Y.; Stabenow, Mich.; Webb, Va.; Whitehouse, R.I.

Democrats No

Baucus, Mont.; Lincoln, Ark.; Reid, Nev.; Tester, Mont.

Democrats Not Voting

Biden, Del.; Kennedy, Mass.; Kerry, Mass.; Wyden, Ore.

Republicans Yes

Bond, Mo.; Brownback, Kan.; Collins, Maine; Dole, N.C.; Domenici, N.M.; Lugar, Ind.; Snowe, Maine; Specter, Pa.; Voinovich, Ohio; Warner, Va.

Republicans No

Allard, Colo.; Barrasso, Wyo.; Bennett, Utah; Bunning, Ky.; Burr, N.C.; Chambliss, Ga.; Coburn, Okla.; Cochran, Miss.; Coleman, Minn.; Corker, Tenn.; Crapo, Idaho; DeMint, S.C.; Ensign, Nev.; Enzi, Wyo.; Grassley, Iowa; Gregg, N.H.; Hatch, Utah; Hutchison, Texas; Inhofe, Okla.; Isakson, Ga.; Kyl, Ariz.; Martinez, Fla.; McCain, Ariz.; McConnell, Ky.; Murkowski, Alaska; Roberts, Kan.; Sessions, Ala.; Shelby, Ala.; Thune, S.D.; Vitter, La.; Wicker, Miss.

Republicans Not Voting

Alexander, Tenn.; Cornyn, Texas; Craig, Idaho; Graham, S.C.; Hagel, Neb.; Smith, Ore.; Stevens, Alaska; Sununu, N.H.

Others Yes

Lieberman, Conn.; Sanders, Vt.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5izj-oTsd3Ny4jLQ5_kO0DJhakTNgD950VN100

This is Senate Roll Call 215 on H.R. 7005, which served as a shell for the bailout bill.

[FriendlyReminder]

104. Screw the republicans. WE ARE IN THE MAJORITY RIGHT NOW!!!!

If we could have gotten the votes from Baucus, Lincoln, Reid, Tester, Biden, Kennedy, Kerry, and Wyden we would have been at 60 votes and gotten this thing to the floor. There are times when an opportunity presents itself and we just have to say "Screw them, we can do this ourselves". It could still be called "bi-partisan" since there were 10 republican votes and The Shrub to sign it. Yes, there should have been more than 10, but WE had the other 8.

[lynne]

122. Am I seeing this right? Eight Democrats either didn't vote or voted No -

- and the bill missed the mark by eight votes? Damn.

[StudsT]

120. OUTSOURCE the CxO's - with ALL the money we'd save, we could BUY China ;)

think about it...

Studs

[Contrary]

127. Big Three American Auto makers Bail Out

Do you really care about American Car makers?

How many bought an American made car last time?

How many drive a foreign car that was made in America?

How much of your own BS can you eat?

Bankruptcy Court is where their problems will be aired out.
The UAW is terrified of letting everyone know the deal auto
workers are getting.
When was the last time you got laid off and still got paid?

[olddad56]

129. As long as the bank executives who were bailed out don't have to take a cut.

it makes sense to me.