Stalin's new status in Russia

[WriteDown]

Source: BBC

The former Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin may have killed millions of his own people but this weekend he could be chosen by Russians as their greatest-ever countryman.

Inspired by the British competition 100 Greatest Britons, one of Russia's biggest television stations Rossiya has been conducting a nationwide poll for much of this year.

From an original list of 500 candidates now there are just 12 names left from which viewers can select their all-time hero.

The winner will be announced on Sunday.,,,

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7798497.stm

---

What's next Hitler #1 hero of Germany?

[sharp_stick]

1. I doubt it

I don't think the Germans "pine" for the good ol' days quite like the Russians seem to lately.

[ananda]

2. Poor Russians.

They've gone cuckoo.

[Steepler0t]

3. What a odd survey

Stalin was Georgian, not Russian.

[Posteritatis]

6. Napoleon was Corsican but I doubt the French disqualified him for that (nt)

[Dirigo]

39. Corsican and French

born in 1768, Corsica a french region 1768

[Revolution aka Ohio]

7. Stalin was ethnicly a Russian...his family were Russians IN Georgia.

[MikeNearMcChord]

9. His family's name was Dzugashvilli, some historians think

his family was closer to be ethnic Ossentians. Anyway if I was to bet, I put some coin on the multi-ethnic Kalmyk Tartar, Swedish and German descended, Simbirsk born Russian, the revolutionary Vladimir Ulyanov or better known as Lenin.

[LBJDemocrat]

10. Do you have a source for that? nt

[LisaL]

13. No Stalin was not an ethnic russian.

[dipsydoodle]

4. Next up will be

Interesting Belgians.

[tclambert]

32. Hercule Poirot wins hands down.

Even though he's fictional.

[Ravachol]

5. What's interesting is that...

most people who will vote for Stalin or voted for him so far never experienced life under his rule. He died 55 years ago. I doubt there's many 70+ years old voting or that they vote all the same. So there's many a young man/woman voting for Stalin? Makes you wonder what they learn in their classes if they're so fond of the old dictator.

[MikeNearMcChord]

11. They are told that he built Russia(Soviet Union)

into an international power, that the world even the US could not push around. That he single handedly industrialzed the nation, and that he led them to the glorious victory in the Great Patriotic War (World war II)
The fact he killed millions in forced collectivization of farms, the purges of political opponents and innocent men women and children, the forced ethnic cleansings and relocations(The Chechens are an example)to some is looked on as a case of the price of making the nation powerful(not my words but some of the Stalin admirers, I have read about)

[libnnc]

19. It's really frightening that there is a whole generation so far removed

from that terror. They didn't live it, so they know nothing about it.

[John Q. Citizen]

24. Undoubtably. People are very good at rationalizing. And some of what they say is true.

Russia (the Soviet Union) went from the 13th century into the 20th century in 50 years. Stalin got them the bomb which meant the West could only do so much. it was kind of a stand off. Then perestroika and glasnost traded off the political elites for the capitalist gangsters. Now the nationalists are fairing far too well for comfort and they are using Stalin to symbolize that role. Father fatherland.

[Hulk]

8. Do you think it possible "the chimp" could be in the finalists come 55+ years from now?

God, I certainly hope not, but it goes to show just how twisted history can be.

Stalin is probably Russia's BIGGEST name, but I think Hitler would more than likely qualify as one of Germany's biggest names also. Sad, isn't it?

Fortunately, "the chimp" has a few competitors that blow him away....eg, Washington, Lincoln, Kennedy, Eisenhower, Truman, Roosevelt, etc.

I think "the chimp" will be competing with Hoover, Taft and a half dozen other worthless scum bags.

[Captain Hilts]

12. I'm reading The Greatest Battle right now. The book Nights of Stone...

about "death and memory" in 20th Century Russia is damning.

[libnnc]

18. Hey, I have Night of Stone too

sitting on my shelf. I haven't read it yet(been meaning to for the last 4 years...)

[Captain Hilts]

56. It. Is. An. Amazing. Read. Amazing. nt

[Xipe Totec]

14. Stalin was Georgian n/t

[LisaL]

15. They are obviously not going with the figure has to be an

ethnic russian requirement. Using that logic Pushkin was a quarter african, so I guess he wouldn't qualify either.

[Xipe Totec]

16. Yes, but Pushkin was a genius

Who wouldn't want to claim him as their own?

[Malidictus Maximus]

22. Some of Stalin's quotes are almost pure realpolitik poetry, though

Raw truth succinctly stated, IMHO, is a rare and fascinating thing:

"The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do."

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic"

"Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach."

"If any foreign minister begins to defend to the death a "peace conference," you can be sure his government has already placed its orders for new battleships and airplanes"

[Xipe Totec]

38. Quantity has a quality all it's own.

Another Stalin quote.

[Crunchy Frog]

29. Pushkin was culturally Russian.

Territorially Russian as well. Stalin was neither.

[LisaL]

31. Catherine the Great was german.

The public figures selected obviously don't have to be ethnic russians or even be born in russia. Or be "territorially russian," whatever that means.

[Crunchy Frog]

34. Pushkin was a lot more culturally Russian than Catherine was.

By "territorially Russian" I simply meant that Pushkin was born and raised in Russia proper, unlike either Catherine or Stalin.

[LisaL]

41. Catherine started the Hermitage collection.

One would think she contributed a lot to the russian culture.

[Crunchy Frog]

43. You're arguing against a point that I'm not trying to make.

:)

[Igel]

61. Not quite true.

When he was born, there was no independent Georgia; it was part of the Russian empire.

The empire was composed of discrete territorial units, but everybody in it was born in "Russia", if not in the provinces that composed Russia proper.

Think of Puerto Rico. It's not the US, per se; but people born there are Americans, even if they don't speak the most common language or feel themselves to be culturally quite at one with most mainland Americans. The analogy breaks down because we don't have different ethnicities having clear-cut ancestral homes in the territory of the greater US, but it's still clear enough (IMHO).

Ethnically, culturally, etc., etc., not Russian. But then again, neither were Volga Germans or Yakuts, or even the Finnic tribes that lived up near Lake Ladoga. Or even the Jews.

[Turbineguy]

17. Hmm...

I think this is just a trail balloon to see how soon GW Bush will be elevated to "The Greatest President There Ever Was" status

[tclambert]

35. Ann Coulter already declared Bush the best president ever.

She makes a lot of money so she must be really smart.

[tclambert]

36. Ow, ow, ow! My keyboard burst into flames.

Don't you hate when that happens. Bet it happens to Ann Coulter a lot.

[dixiegrrrrl]

20. Oh ho..this is why he is in top 5 names

from the story:

But now there is a much broader campaign to rehabilitate Stalin and it seems to be coming from the highest levels of government.
The primary evidence comes in the form of a new manual for history teachers in the country's schools, which says Stalin acted "entirely rationally".

came from the very top," says the editor of the manual, historian Alexander Danilov.
"I believe it was the idea of former president, now prime minister, Vladimir Putin.
"It fits completely with the political course we have had for the last eight years, which is dedicated to the unity of society."



Yeah...I can understand the Bush-Cheney revisionist tour now.

edit to add:
a parapharase from the review of "Night of Stone"...

"One problem, of course, is the problem of collective memory in a society that is not allowed to remember."

[pretzel4gore]

21. i see; no one noticed the big liar(s)

So Stalin killed millions, did he? And the 1500 people who drowned on the Titanic- does it matter history-wise, that 600 of them were LOCKED IN? Does that lil detail sorta screw up the cover story that walter Lord and many others upper class jokers have promoted since 1912 ie 'the Titanic was a tragedy that showed the people that SAFETY was job one' etc (and the upper class folk were basically heroic despite a few bad apples, while the poor classes, btw, were just scum)...the point is, the TITANIC story was bullshit from start to finish! The 1st class rich passengers panicked and hogged the too few 20 lifeboats, and the leaderless crew simply never got around to unlocking the gangways to the steerage campartments- which reminds us of the numerous stories of people breaking out even as the freezing water rose up (the Titanic hit berg at 20 to midnight and disappeared at 0220 AM, iow withing 15 minutes steerage passengers were drowning like rats!). Joe Stalin was ruthless and probably paranoid/psychotic, but to suggest he was a fool who murdered his own people for no reason, the very people the survival of the REVOLUTION might need, is pure idiocy. If a story like the Titanic story can be told for almost 100 years w/out noticing the single harshest fact- that nearly half the doomed are still in the wreckage! - then why do leftwingers believe the fricking liars regards someone who probably has saved millions upon millions of OUR lives, by making the USSR a military/nuclear power which survived everything the pig threw at it (and believe me, that was ALOT!) for 75 years! For example, The 'raid on Dieppe' by Canadian troops in 1942 was, i recently learned, mainly to show Stalin that the allies were 'trying' to open a second front against hitler, but Dieppe was massively defensively armed and the Canadian raiders were slaughterd/captured ....and only when the Red Army was threatening to conquer all of Europe did the 'allies' ie Britain/US, do D-Day, in 1944, when Soviet troops were already in German territory. The point of all these asides to the bullshit attack on Joe Stalin is that WE had junyer foisted on us, and WE have wasted tens of trillions of $ in order to make the pig fatter/richer then he already was, and it's about time WE grew up and stopped believing the lying liars, who can't/won't tell truth even when it's obvious, as it was about the Titanic.

[Lucky Luciano]

23. wow...impressively convoluted...You were an English Lit major?

[Crunchy Frog]

30. Huh?

:crazy:

[Psephos]

42. You should send that post to The Onion lol n/t

[LeftishBrit]

59. Yes, Stalin did kill millions

And yes, he did fight Hitler (though he had previously engaged in a Nazi-Soviet Pact); and that is good, but that doesn't stop Stalin from having been a dangerous and evil man and an oppressor and mass murderer.

'The point of all these asides to the bullshit attack on Joe Stalin is that WE had junyer foisted on us'

I don't see the point here. Most people were strongly against Stalin long before Junior got elected.

And who is 'the pig' - I thought you meant the Nazis at first; but they weren't around for 75 years. Surely you don't think America/ the West is simply a 'pig'?

[pretzel4gore]

60. In 'Rise and fall of 3rd reich' by Shirer

the team which was to negotiate with Stalin concerning the Red Army's transit across Poland etc to enter the war on allies side (remember, WW2 was going on since 1939, and Stalin wanted to help the allies, ergo the negotiations- the USSR, and USA, was still a bystander to the war in 1940) went by tugboat. The tugboat spent months going from England to USSR, as it had to hug the coastline and was unable to withstand the usual storms, due to the passsengers' lack of sea legs etc. Stalin obviously knew that the 'allies' wanted hitler to attack USSR all along; because the USSR was the inspiration for industrial working classes everywhere, and, had hitler played his cards right, the 'holocaust' for example, would have escaped notice; communism would have been erased from the world and we'd have been in 1940 approximately where we are now, with fascism totally in control and grinding poverty the only rule- and of course we never visit the moon, or any of that public service crap everyone thinks just had to happen. I understand the reaction to a post defending Stalin, using the 'pigs' habit of outright lying about news/history for generation after generation, as the Titanic story is plain example of, and to suggest we know less about USSR then we think, just like we cannot know who murdered JFK, or who set up the 911 catastrophe, or what happened to sara palin's medical records. The Titanic story is interesting due to it being 'in the bag' as far as us consumers are concerned, yet the fact nearly 1/2 the victims were, in effect, prisoners when that ship sank, was successfully airbrushed out of the record, simply because it was too hideous to imagine, and...well who really needed to know the truth? Who benefitted from the truth? The same goes for alot of other things, say the nuking of Japanese cities AFTER Japan gov/Emperor pleaded with 'allies' to accept surrender terms a month before august/1945. The entire fiction we live with of how the world came to be what it is has been a multi-generational conjob, a big lie, serving certain powerful interests; and you aint gonna hear much more about it regardless. The pig, btw, is the devil according to a certain good book....

[Kurska]

25. "I know that after my death a pile of rubbish will be heaped on my grave,

, but the wind of History will sooner or later sweep it away without mercy." --- stalin, said to vyacheslav molotov in 1943

I'm ambivalent towards stalin as a historical figures, as a politician and a statesmen he was excellent, as member of the human race though he was deplorable.

[leftchick]

26. no, probably dubya best president ever

behind raygun of course.

[texanshatingbush]

27. I recently found some explanations for this in a book published in 1976....

The title of the book is THE RUSSIANS, by Hedrick Smith, who was Moscow Bureau Chief for the New York Times from 1971 to 1974.

Smith notes that he was surprised by the nostalgia for Stalin among ordinary Soviets. He quizzed different Russians about this:

AZERBAIJANI TAXI DRIVER IN BAKU: We love Stalin here. He was a strong boss. With Stalin, people knew where they stood.

30-YR OLD RUSSIAN LIBRARIAN IN TASHKENT: Stalin carried the entire, gigantic war effort on his shoulders. He built the power of this country. Of course, mistakes were made in his name. By other people.

GENNADI, THE STATE FARM ACCOUNTANT: know that under Stalin conditions were not as good, but the state farm directors and other officials were not robbing them under
Stalin....there was a check on local authorities.

A LINGUIST IN HER FIFTIES: Stalin knew how to impress people. When he was alive, other countries respected and feared us more.

A WRITER IN HIS SIXTIES WHO SPENT EIGHT YEARS IN STALINIST LABOR CAMPS: Stalin has a real hold on...the masses. They feel that he built the country and he won the war. Now they see disorganization in agriculture, disorganization in industry, disorganization everywhere in the economy and they see no end to it. They are bothered by rising prices. They think that when there was a tough ruler, like Stalin, we did not have such troubles. People forget that things were bad then, too, and they forget the terrible price that we paid.
====
So, it seems to me that the Stalinist nostalgia is tied to a nostalgia for "the good old days", when it was "morning in Russia".

This should be a lesson to us as we move into the really tough economic days ahead for this nation. Remember how Bushco systematically caused a meltdown of the substructure of this country, which led to the privations we now face.

Oh, and remember to ensure that the textbooks children use in school properly document the Bush termites that caused the foundations to become so shaky.

God help us all.

[Crunchy Frog]

33. Best book I ever read. Turned me into a Russia fanatic for the next several years.

He really managed to cut through all the propaganda on all sides and delve into the Russian psyche.

[Crunchy Frog]

28. And he wasn't even Russian. n/t

[David__77]

37. He is credited for defeating German fascism.

They see that Russia had a higher standard of living, and immeasurably more international prestige in 1953 than in 1924, notwithstanding the brutal assaults on the country. The Anglo-American-Soviet alliance defeated a new dark age, and Stalin did play a positive role in that regard.

None of this is to say that many people didn't suffer or be wrongly killed during his rule.

[Ex Lurker]

44. Stalin was primarily responsible for Russia's near defeat

early in the war. His purges left the Red Army practically without leadership. And he was perfectly willing to cut a deal with Hitler in carving up Poland between them. Stalin was our nominal ally because Nazi Germany was the greater threat at the time. But he was nearly, if not just as, bad as Hitler.

[Lionel Mandrake]

53. When the Allies tried to warn Stalin that Hitler was about to attack,

Stalin ignored the warnings. The German attack in June 1941 took him completely by surprise. So you are correct about his responsibility for the near defeat.

Later he seemed to come to his senses. He helped the defense of Moscow by staying there when it looked as if the Germans were about to capture it. His presence kept others from deserting. This was a courageous act on his part, and it made a difference. (Even a monster has its good moments.)

[David__77]

55. Not a nominal ally, a real ally.

Even "Western experts" are divided on the impacts of the purges on the military. For instance, some believe that it is actually true that Marshall Mikhail Tukhachevsky was indeed plotting a military coup against Stalin, with some support from German intelligence. Is it really so far fetched that there was a fifth column? Every country in Europe had a fifth column that paved the way for German fascism - France, Hungary, Greece, Croatia, Poland, Bulgaria, on and on. Only the Soviet Union was relatively free of that subversion.

Britain's Chamberlain wanted Germany to strike east so that the Soviets and Nazi Germany would "finish each other off." The Soviets saw this, and made a tactical agreement with the Germans regarding Poland to establish a buffer zone and to bide time to build up military defensive capacities. The Germans ended up rather pissed about the whole thing, regretting the agreement. At worst, the picture is mixed.

[Malidictus Maximus]

40. When Lenin died,

The Soviet Union had been defeated by Germany, was barely able to fight off the 'white' Russians and was a technological and economic backwater.

When Stalin died, the USSR was standing toe to toe with the only other superpower in the world, had destroyed and dominated Germany, and was in control of nearly every country on it's border.

No value judgement, but simple fact that Stalin pulled his country, in some ways, from the 10th to the 20 the century, from pitchforks and single shot rifles to nukes, from military humiliation to having 100 divisions and no doubt on the part of NATO that he would use them. 20 or 30 million dead, to some ways of thinking, was a satisfactory price to pay. YMMV

[tabasco]

45. Hahahahahaha.

The tsar lost the war against the Germans, genius.

[Malidictus Maximus]

47. That is irrelevant

My point is that at the time Lenin died, Russia had recently lost a war, of course due to the incompetence of the Tsar, but that fact didn't affect much the humiliation and the cost of the concessions, and the efforts of Lenin and Trotsky notwithstanding, they were still a weak nation. By the end of Stalin's reign they were much stronger. At a terrible cost, of course.

Why do you need to be rude? I am addressing one of the reasons that the Russians may be nostalgic for Stalin, not the validity or terror of his reign.

[IndianaGreen]

51. The Mensheviks continued the war because they wanted peace with honour.

Or more accurately, Kerensky thought that too much blood had been sacrificed for Russia to just drop out of the war.

The Bolsheviks promised peace, land, and bread. Kerensky died disgraced and in exile in New York City.

[Captain Hilts]

57. Sadly, I have to agree with you. nt

[Angleae]

46. What do you expect from a state-owned TV channel?

Yes, Rossiya TV is government owned. Putin wants a return to the "golden days" of the USSR. And it's no surprise that is was Stalin that said "It doesn’t matter who votes, what matters is who counts the votes."

[IndianaGreen]

48. Stalin didn't have a Rick Warren problem in USSR

And he rallied the nation against the Nazi invasion. US could not have defeated Germany without the USSR, AND it was the Red Army which liberated the death camps in Eastern Europe.

[Ex Lurker]

49. This post proves once again that one can be a Leftist without being Progressive n/t

[IndianaGreen]

50. Just why do you think there is such a nostalgia for Stalin?

Or for that matter, why are so many Iraqis wishing Saddam was back in power?

What has happened to the common people in Russia since the oligarchs took power? What happened to their pensions, their jobs? What happened to law and order?

[Ex Lurker]

52. there's always nostalgia for the good old days

even when the good old days weren't very good. It's human nature. People have selective memories, otherwise no woman would voluntarily go through childbirth more than once. Add to that the propaganda from Putin to advance his personal agenda, and this phenomenon isn't surprising.

[Lionel Mandrake]

54. I don't think it's nostalgia, exactly.

It seems to me that Russians like to be ruled by a strong man. If he's cruel and vulgar, so much the better. Then other nations will fear him.

Putin fills the bill nicely. That's why he is so popular in Russia.

[totodeinhere]

58. Of course he also murdered millions of his own people. The holocaust that he...

unleashed rivaled Hitler's. Stalin was an evil man.

[IndianaGreen]

63. He had his good points, such as no Religious Right or fraking Evangelicals

Adios Rick Warren, off to gulag with your sorry fat ass!

[DrCory]

65. One Might Consider...

The cult of personality he crafted to be a form of religion. If one were intelligent, that is.

"Adios Rick Warren, off to gulag with your sorry fat ass!"

So, the GULAG was a progressive institution?

[IndianaGreen]

66. The gulag was established by the Tsars!

However, a gulag for the religious right would be a good thing for the USA.

[DrCory]

68. I am aware of that...

Oddly, that fact did not compel the Soviets to abandon such an abomination. Surprising, considering how "progressive" they were.
In fact, the Tsarist institution pales when contrasted with the Soviet system at it's peak.

"However, a gulag for the religious right would be a good thing for the USA."

Modeled after what? Magadan, Vorkuta, Pechora? Complete with semi-starvation, death from exhaustion, exposure, and malnutrition?

[chatnoir]

62. Voted 3rd Greatest

Dictator Stalin voted third-greatest Russian

2 hours ago

MOSCOW (AP) — A Russian state television network says Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, who sent millions to their deaths in the Great Purge of the 1930s, has been voted the country's third-greatest historical figure.

Rights activists have blasted Stalin's inclusion in the 90-day, nationwide project run by the Rossiya channel. They say authorities are trying to gloss over Stalin's atrocities and glorify his tyranny.

Medieval leader Alexander Nevsky was voted the greatest Russian, with over a half-million Internet and SMS votes.

Nevsky, subsequently canonized, amassed numerous military victories over European invaders during his 13th Century reign.

In second place was Pyotr Stolypin — a prime minister under turn-of-the-century czar Nicholas II — who suppressed leftist revolutionaries.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ic3GH4R3Gxk7svBcREjIgWOwxaHQD95BUMB80


Stalin voted third-best Russian

Former Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin was beaten by medieval prince Alexander Nevsky in a poll held by a TV station to find the greatest Russian.

Stalin came third, despite being responsible for the deaths of millions of Soviets in labour camps and purges.

Alexander Nevsky fought off European invaders in the 13th century to preserve a united Russia.

In second place was reformist Prime Minister Pyotr Stolypin, who was assassinated in 1911.

More than 50 million people voted by phone, the internet or via text messages in the poll held by Rossiya, one of Russia's biggest television stations.

More: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7802485.stm

[DrCory]

64. Now That's Rich!

Stalin behind Stolypin...

:rofl:

[IndianaGreen]

67. Stolypin got what he richly deserved!

The Tsars were cruel tyrants.

[marasinghe]

69. humans long overdue to evolve past insect-reptilian stage

but not holding my breath; darwinism will hopefully take our blight off the face of the universe.

i'm originally from a south asian country. couple of decades back, we had an elected leader - who came from a poor community. after he got to head of state, as long as things were fairly normal, he did a lot to help his community.

then, a bunch of desperate marxist extremists, mostly economically helpless & hopeless college kids, got into a shooting match with the govt.. though these admittedly brutal wannabe guerrillas came from the same economic strata, this leader instituted his own reign of terror - which finally evolved into a bloody massacre of many young males between the ages of 16 and 30, and a few females as well. the war-pigs in the armed forces were unleashed with carte blanche, and they went over the edge. the military scum suppressed the insurrection with bloody reprisals that would disgust any sane human being, or animal. things like tying young adults & teens - sometimes corpses, sometimes not - to trees, piling tires around them, and literally burning them at the stake. in this, the jack-boots and the piece of carrion-shit leader, were applauded & supported by much of the establishment, including the average bourgeoisie - who conveniently shut their minds to the atrocities. somewhat like the 80% of the us population which supported the rape of iraq at the inception, through the days of shock & awe, and falluja.

karma caught up with the pustule noted above, and he was assassinated by a different bunch. the same pack of mindless ants which had supported him, started cussing him out, for a couple of years maybe. years passed, and now, many of your 80% mindless human sheep over there, consider this piece of filth to have been a legendary leader. the same way that murdering scumbags, like alexander 'the great', julius caesar, genghiz khan, and others of the ilk, are now heroic.

won't be surprised an iota, if george the cowardly ends up a wondrous president, in revisionist history writing itself ad nauseam. most are yet in denial on raygun & his goon squads. the psychopath kissinger still struts the pundit stage like a talleyrand & is hailed for his genius on wa-po, the msm, & academia; well, hell - ppl like shirley maclaine & candice bergen dated the holy k while he was running his dirty little interventions, and he got the nobel prize, didn't he?

stalin-nostalgia isn't a bit surprising, for the moron majority.