Madoff goes to jail

[Hepburn]

Source: MSNBC Breaking News

Off to jail ~~ judge says Medoff no longer entitled to the presumption of innocence!

Edit for link



Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/12/madoff-arrives-in-court-f_n_174194.html

---

:applause:

[ellacott]

1. Good

[tonysam]

4. It's About Time.

He and members of his family involved in the Ponzi scheme should lose every dime they have.

[Hepburn]

6. Totally agree....

...the bastard is now trying to hide the money he stole by this plea. For his supposedly innocent brother, wife and sons.

:puke:

[Hepburn]

2. More....

...Madoff has pled guilty to 11 counts.

Counsel asked for Madoff to be released to his home pending sentencing in June. Judge denied the request and Madoff was immediately taken off to jail.

[hlthe2b]

9. Ahh, perhaps that preempts my previous post...

I admittedly hate to see a 70 year old taken off to jail in what will very likely be the rest of his life. But, for Madoff, I think I can get past my overly "soft-hearted concerns."

[Hepburn]

18. Same here.....

....I have NO sympathy for this SOB. He raped people who are now on the streets with NOTHING. There are a lot of elderly people who are broke because of Madoff.

[hlthe2b]

3. If they don't take him directly....

Cue the medical examiner.... I sense a fatal (fake?) heart attack and perhaps a distant beach in the Pacific-- a la Ken Lay-- coming on for Mr. Madoff.

[Hepburn]

8. They hooked him up in the courtroom....

...and took him away via an underground tunnel.

Bu-bye, Bernie....:hi:

[hlthe2b]

14. Was this televised? If so, did Madoff show any remorse?

[Hepburn]

15. It was not televised on MSNBC....

...this is Feddie court and they usually do not allow cameras.

However, reporters in the courtroom were calling in to the newsroom.

I heard the words that Madoff supposedly said about "being sorry," but I doubt that the bastard gives even a small shit.

[shanti]

63. yeah, he's sorry.....THAT HE GOT CAUGHT!

:mad:

[hamsterjill]

49. Was thinking of Ken Lay, too.

As posted now, Madoff has been taken to jail, and although I am sorry to see a 70 year old imprisoned, that's what needs to happen her.

It will be harder to pull off a fake death that way!

[Ohio Joe]

5. Good - nt

[KatieW]

7. It's about time!!!!!

[Hepburn]

13. Other news on this is that the commentators are saying that....

...those investors who got out before Madoff was arrested and the scam came out, they might have to share what they got with the other victims.

[hugo_from_TN]

20. Of course they do

All returns are fraudulent. Even if they got burned in the end, any returns that were removed from the investment over time are fraudulent and should be seized.

[Hepburn]

38. I don't know if I can agree with that.

Let's say someone decided five years to retire and took the investments out recently based on an investment plan made years ago.

I can see some who took money out and they knew...others???? I am not sure.

[hugo_from_TN]

43. That's the law

Whether they knew about it or not, you are not allowed to keep fraudulent or stolen gains. I'm not saying people that didn't know should be prosecuted, but they have to give up any gains above the money they originally put in.

Madoff doesn't have all the money - anyone who withdrew gains also has part of the money. That's the way Ponzi schemes work.

If you buy a $500 bike for $50 from someone who stole it, you don't get to keep the bike once the crime is discovered. You are out your $50 and the bike (which goes back to the owner).

[Hepburn]

46. OK....

...I see what you are saying.

I thought you were saying that those who took out their money were also guilty of fraudulent actions just for taking out the money.

:hi:

[MISSDem]

89. and if you knew it was stolen then you are guilty

of "possession of stolen property". And just like these folks who thought 46% return on their money wasn't unusual so you would know that $50 for a $500 bike was "unusual" too.

[Mrs. Overall]

10. I would love for this to be a revolving headline: "(fill in the blank) goes to jail."

[Hepburn]

16. Yeah....

...that could be very interesting ~~ but people might mistake it for Dubya going to jail!

:hi:

[Kablooie]

11. He doesn't pass GO and doesn't collect $200.

[Hepburn]

19. Well, prior to passing GO....

...he took a hell of a lot more than $200.00!

Gee, George Bush and the rest of the Pubbie RW assholes: Thanks so very much for all the deregulation! :sarcasm:

[Heidi]

12. MSNBC banner: BREAKING NEWS: Judge revokes Madoff bail; he'll be in custody until sentencing in June

:thumbsup:

[Hepburn]

17. See me smile......

.....and applause! :applause:

I am hoping that they can get more funds to restore some of the savings of those Madoff raped financially.

There were comments on MSNBC that the HUGE amounts of money which were transferred overseas right before all of this came done.

Plus: Wife lives in the $7 million (?) condo and has about $65 million in assets.

IMO, take it all ~~ she was the long time bookkeeper for his companies and she HAD to know, IMO.

[Theobald]

21. Best news I have heard all day

He should get the max and every dime of money or assests that he or his wife have should be confiscated.

[Hepburn]

23. Like I said above.....

....there have been comments that he pled straight out and not a plea bargain in order to try and allow his wife and family keep a ton of assets and money.

Fuck that....I know that is blunt, but....

[Theobald]

37. It doesn't work that way

By pleading guilty and not taking a plea bargain he has zero influence. Now they can concentrate on finding evidence, if there is any, of what the rest of his family members did or did not do.

[Hepburn]

40. He also cannot plead the 5th....

...but....what the hell can the court do to him if he refuses to talk?

:shrug:

Those on the outside who have not pled out ~~ they have the 5th to fall back on.

I know the govt will still investigate, but I am betting those assholes hid the money deep long ago.

[hugo_from_TN]

44. They have no leverage over him

He has accepted that he is going to jail for the rest of his life. He will not cooperate in any way to implicate anyone else. There is nothing else they can do to him.

If he is very smart, he has probably stashed tons of money away they will never find. He has also probably built in plenty of protection for all his co-conspirators since he knew this would eventually happen.

[Hepburn]

48. I totally agree.....

....he did not plea bargain ~~ just pled straight up. So there simply appears to be -0- leverage that the govt would have against him.

[Hepburn]

22. This is what Bloomberg is reporting:

March 12 (Bloomberg) -- Bernard Madoff, scheduled to plead guilty today to masterminding the largest Ponzi scheme in history, may have to fight off prison inmates who want to squeeze him for money or blame him for the Wall Street crash.

“Madoff isn’t going to be real popular,” said Larry Levine, who served 10 years in federal prisons for securities fraud and narcotics trafficking and now advises convicts on surviving time behind bars. “All the guys there will have wives or parents who are losing their homes or their jobs or who can’t send money to them anymore. Everybody’s going to be blaming Bernie.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601170&refer=home&sid=aQfzxHFaj_Co

Gee, see a tear in my eye? NOT......:mad:

[durablend]

31. Poor thing...

He'd better be nice to all his new boyfriends!

[leveymg]

24. Did he ever tell us where the cash went? Does his wife keep "her" $30 million

Why are so many aspects of this case still sealed? Or is that another "state secret"?

[Hepburn]

29. Reporting that the Govt will keep investigating....

...this is not the end. This is what the reporters are saying, so consider my source.

[acmavm]

25. You know why he pleaded guilty? To cover for the rest of his

frigging family. He thinks it ends here.

Put the damn kids in a cell as accessories and I bet he starts telling where the bodies (and the money) is buried.

[Hepburn]

28. Exactly....

....he does not give a shit for the folks he ruined...just wants to keep the money in the family.

Fuck the whole dishonest clan, IMO.

[formercia]

35. He wanted to spare his family the embarassment.

A nest of thieves.

[acmavm]

61. Embarassment! What a quaint way to put it.

[formercia]

69. Didn't you detect the sarcasm?

:rofl:

[acmavm]

74. NO, and I wasn't being snarky either. Why were you?

[formercia]

85. Go take your meds.

then go bother someone else.

[acmavm]

98. Gladly, there are people here who don't suffer from stunted emotional

and intellectual development, unlike yourself.

Yes, I will go play with those people.

Toodles.

[formercia]

26. Of ta da Gaol wi ye

and off to the greatest page

[Hepburn]

32. Hey, thanks.....

...IMO, this needs to get out.

One of the victims is saying ~~ per an MSNBC reporter ~~ that the govt has stopped communicating with her and her husband. She wants to know where thre $$$ went. I agree ~~ and whatever the family has? It needs to be tied down and kept under wraps.

[formercia]

34. My pleasure

:toast:

Here's to the Judge.

[Hepburn]

36. Amen!

IMO, the judge did the right thing.

:patriot:

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. Finally. Justice.

Does he have to poop out in the open? That's the real indignation of prison.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

30. Here's your link

Madoff is denied bail and ordered to jail

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/12/madoff-arrives-in-court-f_n_174194.html

NEW YORK — Bernard Madoff has been ordered to jail after pleading guilty to an epic financial fraud scheme. Applause broke out in the courtroom after the judge's announcement Thursday.

The judge revoked bail after the financier entered 11 guilty pleas. The judge says the 70-year-old Madoff has the means to flee and an incentive to do so because of his age.

Madoff admitted he began operating a giant Ponzi scheme in the early 1990s. Prosecutors say he robbed investors of billions of dollars.

Sentencing has been set for June 16. He could face up to 150 years in prison.

[Hepburn]

33. Thanks ~~ I will edit the OP and add the link!

:hi:

[edbermac]

39. A damn shame they're closing down Gitmo.

This scumbag is as bad as bin Laden. :grr:

[Hepburn]

41. Hmmmmmmm...

....wonder if Darth Cheney would have found Madoff an appropriate subject for waterboarding interrogation?

:shrug:

[Hepburn]

42. MSNBC reporting....

...one of the victims who got to speak, asked Madoff to turn around and look at him and other victims in the courtroom ~~ Madoff did not do this. The speaker stepped forward to make Madoff look at him and the US Marshalls stepped in and made the speaker move back.

[Hepburn]

45. Madoff Is Guilty in Ponzi Scheme; Ordered to Jail (Update3)

March 12 (Bloomberg) -- Bernard Madoffwas jailed after admitting he masterminded the largest Ponzi scheme in history, an epic swindle that may have reached $65 billion and made him the symbol of investor distrust in a global recession.

Madoff, 70, entered his guilty plea in Manhattan federal court three months after confessing to relatives that his firm, Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, was “one big lie.” U.S. District Judge Denny Chin ordered that Madoff, who has been free on $10 million bond, should be jailed while awaiting sentencing, scheduled for June 16. He faces as much as 150 years in prison.

“I never invested the funds in securities as promised,” Madoff told Chin at a hearing today in a courtroom packed with victims and members of the media. He said he was “deeply sorry” and knew what he did was criminal.

Madoff told Chin that in the early 1990s, when the U.S. was in a recession, he felt “compelled’” to provide the returns he promised investors. He said when the Securities and Exchange Commission asked about it, he lied to the SEC.

More....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&refer=home&sid=aAKy7D3aL5ko

He did this cuz he felt "compelled" to succeed????? GMAFB.....:eyes:

[wackywaggin]

47. Hang em'High!!!

Not good enough. File charges agasinst the rest of the clan, sons and recently divorced wives as
well!!

[fascisthunter]

50. Question for anyone who can Answer...

what type of prison/jail will this man be in? Will it be a heavily gaurded country club or something more just for this man's crimes?

If this man is sipping martinis and eating lobster at some country club, THAT is not justice!

[Hepburn]

55. If he has a long term sentence....

...which seems extremely likely, he is going to go to one of the not so nice ones. No Club Fed for Madoff.

[fascisthunter]

60. yay

[rvablue]

72. Why is that...wouldn't he just be sent to Danbury which is in effect a "Club Fed." nt

[Hepburn]

79. Usually Club Feds are for "short timers."

What Madoff will get is essentially a life term. No reason to rehabilitate him and get him ready for re-entry to society.

[rvablue]

87. Just saying, if he gets a life term at Danbury Federal Penitentary, that life term will be

at a Club Fed.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[glitch]

51. c ya! h8 2 b ya! nt

[xxqqqzme]

52. Highly recommend

Excellent article in April's Vanity Fair 'Madoff's World', http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/04/mad...

Good background for understanding how the scheme was all arranged, the scope of who got screwed. There are two a companion pieces in the same issue: one about about Walter Noel (Fairfield Greenwich Group), which deepens the Madoff intrigue; and one titled 'Over the Hedge'. All excellent reporting and writing.

[Stinky The Clown]

53. Where's da money?

[Hepburn]

56. That is the Bingo Question in this case.

IMO, it is hidden overseas. I am waiting for Ruth Madoff and the brother and the kiddos to suddeny disappear across the Atlantic.

[Stinky The Clown]

59. I completely agree with you

They should all be on house arrest until they talk.

(Yeah ...... I know ..... violates their rights. Which is why I do not actually wish for this ..... )

[Hepburn]

62. At times, it is really hard to support the Constitutional rights of some people....

...but ya just gotta hold your nose and do it.

:hi:

[merh]

68. They should be charged with receipt of stolen property

if they don't turn over all they can to the feds.

Has the government filed forfeiture docs, are they seizing all of his property?

[Hepburn]

82. With the Feddie Crim cases with which I have been involved....

...and property used in and any assets gained from criminal activity are subject to a forfeiture action. Here, at the moment, as I understand it ~~ the only assets are the home and money in the wife's name. At the present time, I do not believe that the govt can show that any of this was used in Madoff's criminal enterprises or that the money the wife has are ill gotten gains. Most likely, however, at the least the money that Ruth Madoff has most certainly is tainted. After all, she was his bookkeeper and she has to have known that he was not earning this money, but bilking clients and stealing.

My late hubbie was a major crim defense atty ~~ he had been an AUSAtty ~~ and usually the US filed a forfeiture case. I did mostly civil law, but I was always aware of what was going on in his cases.

[merh]

86. I think Madoff would have a difficult time showing that the money

he used to buy the house (and anything else of value) and the money his wife has was legally acquired and not profits realized in his ponzi scheme.

They came from nothing to become something because of his shell game.

[Gregorian]

54. Spill the beans!

I wasn't happy about him going to jail without naming names. Maybe he'll do it once he's in the slammer.

He caused nowhere near as much pain, suffering, and loss as did Bush and gang. There's a little justice in the air this morning.

[Hepburn]

57. List of the 11 Charges against Madoff

By The Associated Press – 2 hours ago

_ Count 1: Securities fraud. Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison; fine of the greatest of $5 million or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense; restitution.

_ Count 2: Investment adviser fraud. Maximum penalty: Five years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 3: Mail fraud. Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 4: Wire fraud. Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 5: International money laundering, related to transfer of funds between New York-based brokerage operation and London trading desk. Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 6: International money laundering. Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 7: Money laundering. Maximum penalty: 10 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 8: False statements. Maximum penalty: Five years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 9: Perjury. Maximum penalty: Five years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 10: Making a false filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Maximum Penalty: 20 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 11: Theft from an employee benefit plan, for failing to invest pension fund assets on behalf of about 35 labor union pension plans. Maximum penalty: Five years in prison, fine and restitution.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iaKhE2m8quuI9PlG0zSE35DHOjEwD96SH78O1

I found this interesting because of the sentencing guidelines which are included with each charge.

[watrwefitinfor]

66. Each of the 35 labor union pension funds

in Count 11 should be the basis of a separate count of theft.

_ Count 11: Theft from an employee benefit plan, for failing to invest pension fund assets on behalf of about 35 labor union pension plans. Maximum penalty: Five years in prison, fine and restitution.

150 years is way too short.

Wat

[Hepburn]

76. Yep....

....I agree ~~ each one was a separate and distinct victim.

[snacker]

58. It's about time! n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

64. And there he shall stay until he dies.

I just wish the people he ripped off could get some true justice and get their money back.

[nichomachus]

65. I wonder if he's going to find Jesus

That seems to be quite the thing to do in jail.

[Hepburn]

77. Well, could be....

....even if he comes from a Jewish background! :hi:

[nichomachus]

80. Well, the first guys who found Jesus did too

:rofl:

[daleo]

67. I don't believe one man can run a Ponzi scheme like this

Lots more were in the know, recruiting suckers, like Amway.

[rvablue]

73. Well, for one, his wife was doing "bookkeeping" for years at his firm or

more like "bookcooking."

She needs to be investigated and held accountable for her "adding and subtracting."

[depakid]

70. List of charges:

Count 1: Securities fraud. Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison; fine of the greatest of $5 million or twice the gross gain or loss from the offense; restitution.

_ Count 2: Investment adviser fraud. Maximum penalty: Five years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 3: Mail fraud. Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 4: Wire fraud. Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 5: International money laundering, related to transfer of funds between New York-based brokerage operation and London trading desk. Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 6: International money laundering. Maximum penalty: 20 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 7: Money laundering. Maximum penalty: 10 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 8: False statements. Maximum penalty: Five years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 9: Perjury. Maximum penalty: Five years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 10: Making a false filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Maximum Penalty: 20 years in prison, fine and restitution.

_ Count 11: Theft from an employee benefit plan, for failing to invest pension fund assets on behalf of about 35 labor union pension plans. Maximum penalty: Five years in prison, fine and restitution.
------------

A LOT of these are equally applicable to (and proveable in court against) thousands of criminals on Wall Street and also in communities across the states.

[smirkymonkey]

71. Well, it's a good start, anyway.

n/t

[avaistheone1]

75. Was Madoff in shackles at the end of today's proceedings?

If anyone has a pic please post it.

[Hepburn]

78. I believe he was removed from the courtroom in cuffs.

However, since this took place in a Federal Court ~~ no photos. Not allowed.

[avaistheone1]

84. Bummer.

[damntexdem]

81. Yay, yay, yay! Hihos hihos, it's off to jail he goes!

Bout time, too.

[Hepburn]

83. Bernie Madoff's Incarceration Entertainment Guide

Bernie Madoff is going to have a lot of time on his hands.

According to the Metropolitan Correction Center in New York City, which Madoff now calls home, the Ponzi King has all day to "watch TV (installed in common areas only), play table games such as ping pong, attend educational programming (GED and other classes), work on legal case on the unit or in the law library, read material provided by the leisure library."

Cultivating solitary pursuits will be key to Madoff, as he will likely not find many friends in jail, according to Larry Levine, who served 10 years for securites fraud.

"I see Bernie being an outcast a child pornographer," Levine told Fox News.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,509022,00.html

See a tear in my eye? Ummmmmmm...no!

[MISSDem]

88. I don't feel sorry or him but, you know, anyone

who was told that they were guaranteed a 46% return on their money also gets no sympathy from me. Give me a break. Someone along the line must have found this a little too good to be true.

[KamaAina]

90. Coming up next: Inmate No. 3274561B steals 50 billion cigarettes

:P

[TheWatcher]

91. So they gave us a token and threw one under the Bus.

Now we can all go back to sleep and get back to being profitable.

I mean, we don't even have to do anything of substance anymore. All we have to do is read leaked Memo's, listen to well-crafted Propaganda, and let our Financial System and Markets be run like A Casino, and the Economy will be fixed lickety-split.

Yes siree. Glad it's all over now and the LONE GUNMAN of the Economic Criminal Enterprise has been dealt a slap from the Long Arm Of The Law.

Wake me when they do the same to Pandit, Lewis, Paulsen, Greenspan, Bernanke, etc, etc, etc.

Token Justice.

Go Team.

[ConcernedCanuk]

93. I think you are understanding the USA's (in)Justice system!

.
.
.

Go to the head of the class!

[TheWatcher]

94. Sadly most will not see it that way.

They will cheer and shout for joy, and believe that something of substance actually came from this.

We will NEVER have a functioning Economic System that works for ALL of us, as long as all the Foxes are still guarding the Hen House.

PERIOD.

If anyone truly believes that this is going to solve anything, they should analyze the last three trading days in the Stock Market REAL HARD, and take a good look at what it was all based on.

The Great Con Continues.

The People will view this as a "Victory", when all it really was was the Criminal Establishment making a Token Sacrifice so they can get back to Business As Usual, without further inteference from the Pesky Proles for a little while.

There Is Nothing New Under The Sun.

[ConcernedCanuk]

95. "The Great Con Continues" - sounds like a movie title/theme for Michael Moore

.
.
.

And you are correct.

Many will jump up and down with joy thinking THE SYSTEM WORKS!,

when this is just the Financial Gang's Lee Harvey Oswald to appease the masses . .

sadly, it works, always has. As long as SOMEONE gets hanged,

it never had to be the right person . . .

[closeupready]

96. If this puts a criminal behind bars, it solves one problem.

Why do you people always do this? Someone is caught looting the life savings of thousands of people and even charities, they are tried and convicted, sent to prison, and you guys here say, "oh, please, don't be a fool. this is meaningless bread and circuses. If the entire universe isn't changed as a result, it means absolutely nothing."

I get frustrated with DU at times, all these silly conspiracy theories.

Sometimes, people want to watch crooks like this go to jail because they or their loved ones also were ripped off and the crook never paid for his crime. Renews their faith in the admittedly flawed justice system.

[TheWatcher]

97. Who is this "you people" you speak of?

I'm not some adversary or enemy, and I never called you a fool, or attacked you in any way, so you can go get bent with your silly little insults.

Look, you can call me names, call me a Conspiracy Kook all you want. I'm sure it makes you feel "Big And Strong" and assured of yourself. :eyes: Go YOU! Personally I could care less.

What you are really pissed off about is that some people who happen to be a bit more awake and objective to the big picture like to point out how the system works, and how "you people" keep falling for it, thinking that something has been solved and some major, earth shaking event has taken place, when all that has really happened is that The Establishment sacrificed a Pawn, so the larger Pieces on the Chessboard would stay protected, and anyone who points this out is interfering with the False Paradigms "you people" seem to need to cling to like an infant clings to it's favorite toy in order to feel good and not have to think about the bigger picture.

All the Establishment ever has to do is deal out a little "Token Justice" to quiet the masses so they can get back to their Business of looting, robbing, and stealing as they have always done.

If you think something significant has happened here, Good For You! Throw A Party! Throw Rocks and Insults at me if it makes you feel powerful and good!

It does not change the fact that once again, a token crumb has been thrown off the table to shut us up and make us go away.

Was Madoff a Bad guy?

Of Course he was.

Did he hurt a lot of innocent people.

Yes, he was responsible.

Is it good he's going to jail.

Of course.

But the people BEHIND Madoff are still at large and still well out of reach.

If you think someone like a Greenspan, Geithner, or Paulsen will ever see justice, you are DREAMING.

The Pawns will gladly be sacrificed to keep The Game going.

And it appears for the most part, The Public will willingly go along.

Run along now.

[closeupready]

100. I apologize. I guess I was having a mood yesterday.

No offense. :hi:

[unkachuck]

92. I'm not saying....

....some madoff investors aren't hurting....

....nor am I saying madoff isn't a swindler and doesn't deserve to spend the rest of his life in prison....but these madoff 'investors' aren't exactly our 'friends and neighbors'....

....just a little math: 65 billion dollars divided by 4500 investors averages out to well over $14000000.00 per investor....these weren't poor-folk making it from paycheck to paycheck....

....if anything, these were rich-folk, who for years, resisted strong government oversight anywhere....my heart bleeds, but not too much....

[Rebellious Republican]

99. Well said, see what happens when you piss off rich folk! N/T

:fistbump:

[closeupready]

101. I'm just being a little sarcastic so don't take this personally, but

it's a new DU, where victims are more the subject of opprobrium than swindlers are, about whom, it is said, 'are also suffering and that is sad, suffering is always sad, no matter what (even if he is an admitted swindler).' :eyes: