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Doctor Cynic Donating Member (965 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 03:31 PM
Original message
German industry is 'war zone' as recession causes export collapse
Source: Telegraph

Output slumped 7.5pc in January – the biggest monthly slide since reunification in 1991 – and a staggering 19.3pc lower than the same month last year. Independent forecasters expect the economy to shrink 3.7pc this year although Berlin is sticking to its own prediction of a 2.25pc fall.

Car-makers and component suppliers are bearing the brunt. After announcing a 22pc slide in fourth-quarter profits last year, Volkswagen said on Thursday it was facing one of the most difficult years in its history.

Daimler Benz, the Mercedes car group, is laying off 18,000 staff at four plants for "several months", BMW said it had dropped into the red at operating level in the fourth quarter last year and tyre-maker Continental is shedding at least 1,900 jobs. ThyssenKrupp has halted work on four container ships because customers said banks had blocked finance.

The bleak data and signs that the country's vaunted industrial machine – Germany is the world's biggest exporter – has run out of steam have sent shockwaves through the country. The news has added to the pressure on Chancellor Angela Merkel to be bolder and increase the €80bn (£74bn) reflation package designed to finance infrastructure development, provide tax incentives and meet the cost an "old for new" car-scrapping scheme to help stem the fall in domestic vehicle sales.

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/4980270/German-industry-is-war-zone-as-recession-causes-export-collapse.html



You know what happened last time German industry was in a war zone?
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. not comparable situations really nt
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Doctor Cynic
Doctor Cynic

At Least this time around Germany have not yet lost a World War, and have a more or less crippling war reparation to boot.. And Germany of today have no grudge to their nabour, who they definitely had in the 1930s...

Today Germany are after all a democracy, and I really doubt that any german would do the same as Hitler was doing when coming to power.. Because the institutions to safeguard that Germany is an democracy, is far better than it was in the 1930s.. In fact the current constitution in Germany have some strict guidelines to how Germany can be ruled.. No more a Chancellor, who can rule by decree.. And this time around Germany is a partner to the rest of Europe, instead of an enemy as before.. It is one of the "powerhouses" in EU, and are member of NATO.. And have been a member of NATO since 1949..

In all, I doubt that the neo-nazis of today would rise to old habits.. They are to few, and have not the power as their ond ones had.. Germany are for the most part democratic today.. And I doubt that people like Hitler Will ever be as powerfully as he was then... Hitler raised to power, because of some very specific conditions the germans, and Germany in that time... A New Hitler I believe to be near the impossible in Germany this time around... The conditions are just not there for a demagogy like Hitler..
But off course, if Germany as to loose another World War to the Allies.. Then all bets are off again

Diclotican
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. we already had our 'new hitler' moment
at least he didn't throw the football...
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. KakistocracyHater
KakistocracyHater

True, In the 8 year with Bush, USA was closer to dictatorship than everyone belived it to be.. As some of the evidence har sugested it was just luck that US was not a dictatorship in the end... Maybe they dosen't had time to make it posible.. If the economy had blown out a year before, then maybe they had grounds to claim that the President had to be dictator, for the time beeing... Off course, new elections would be made whe the crisis was over... As every dictator have claimed to be the end rule... Even Hitler promised that, that he would after 4 year make a free election where germans could wote for him, or for someone else... It took Germany 12 year, and a ruined divided country to get rid of him...

But how close was US to your form of "Hitler"?.. I would say verry close.. Extremely close. And no, I am not talking about the clown in shief, I am talking about the master mind, between the throne.. Dick Cheney, or aka Darth Vader..

Diclotican
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. It's cool. As you know, The Telegraph, although relatively intelligent
Edited on Thu Mar-12-09 05:58 PM by Ghost Dog
and well-informed, is nevertheless a far-right English-nationalist Europe-hating propaganda organ.

Edit: and would probably dearly love to provoke another money-making war.
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Europe-hating doesn't role off the tongue
the same as America-hating, probably because of the ending vowel.
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Ghost Dog
Ghost Dog

The Telegraph tend to be well informed of what happening in UK, in Europe, and in the former colonies, that is true.. But I would not say they are far right, even that they do are little to the right for my taste.. And I doubt that they Hate Europe, after all UK are a part of Europe they too, even that they try their best to hide on their side of the Shannel... They can say exactly what they will, but in the end they ARE European and not something in between.. And I for one would bet my next paycheck that Winston Churchill and Co would turn in their graves if they had known what the "conservative movement" in UK, and US have grown into.. Even Churchill, who all his life believed in the right of UK to have their colonies would not have known their party, and the republican party in the US.. I for one believe that most "old school" conservatives would turn in their graves in both end of the atlantic, if they had known what to once prominent conservative party's have grown into. Special the Republican party, who has disintegrated to something that would have turn into a group of dimwits, and clown here in Europe... The old school conservatives would have tear Rush Limbaugh, and the lot apart, with some well used language... The Conservative movement had their share of giants, well educated by the best schools, and they had the brain and knowledge to use the education they got... Todays "conservatives" is just plain stupid.. and I may say it to, a shame for everyone who could possible name them self as conservative..

Specially the Republican Party or GOP, have grown into something verry similar to a group of nazis.. Or Far right if you want it.. Yes they have a black "leader" but I doubt that he wil be there for long... The Extremist have taken over the Republican Party, when "gigants" like Rush "Humbug" Limbaugh have been the intelectical center of the party, then you know the party have grown into something really bad... And they who still thing about themselfs as moderate is runing away from the party in drowes.. Becouse they do not know what the party have grown into longer.. Even old party member, who have been there for decades are now leaving the party... So something is really bad in the Republican Party. And I for one would not doubt for a second that some extremists would try to do something really bad when it came to the Administration of mr Obama.. If not so just becouse they hate just the thinking about the fact that a Black Person are the current President of United States of America. I fear for his life, even that I are in Eeurope... I am just really scared..

Diclotican

Diclotican
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Actually, The Left will benefit the most from an economic collapse.
I'm sure that the Tory Telegraph will not be pleased. :evilgrin:
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. timing isn't quite right
the population needs to be "softened up" with 10 years of depression
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
10.  natrat
natrat

Maybe, or maybe not.. I really doubt somehow that people want to be rulered by an tyrant or a few of them anymore. The world have changed a lot since the 1930s.. Who in many cases was the time when Dictators was doing much harm to Europe.. In most Central and Eastern European country the idea of democracy, freedom of speech and such, who is something that most people would fight to preserve in Europe was still in its infancy. And at the look at it, it looked grim, really grim in Europe.. From Spain to Soviet dictators seen to be the norm.. A few country, like Tsjekkoslovakia, France, Great Britain, Sweden, Denmark Norway and Finland (nominally at least) was Democratic. The others was either authoritarian, or outright dictatorship.. Germany was ruled by the Nazis.. Italy by the Fascist. and both was aggressive in their ideology.. But even the Fascist was not going that long in their fanaticism as Hitler and Germany... But they saddled on the wrong horse so to speak, and lost everything too...

After the war, who ended badly for the axis, Germany, Italy and Japan plus the others who under the war war "involved" in the axis movement they learned by hard lessons that War was not the best way to solve issues.. Today Japan and Germany is stable Democracy, even that both country do have their share of problems, that for sure. Italy is maybe not the perfect democracy, with corrupt politicians on every level, but Still a democracy of sorts.. If extreme regimes was to wake up in Europe I would point to Eastern Europe as a problem area.. Most of them have less than a decade of democracy in modern terms, and lack many of the deep roots that is been made in West for many, many decades.. I would point out Poland, Russia (specially Russia who's experience with democracy in the 1990s was less than stellar so to speak) Bulgaria, Romania and some other country as possible problem areas.. This country have no deep roots to democracy and have also a deep problem with corruption.. I Know Bulgaria well, have been there many times both before the Berlin wall was teaing down and after.. And I would say that they do have some problems that is not solved yet - 17 year after they formally was free from the eastern block ideology.. And for the record, Bulgaria together with Romania was not democracy between the war either, and was one of the country who was sending a lot of troops to the soviet front.. Specially Romania who was sending many troops to their death in Stalingrad in 1943... But that is maybe another tread wort again..

I really doubt that in the WEST Europe that dictatorship can be made for the suable future. Of course if everything goes down the grapper then everything is possible.. But I really believe that Democracy is here to stay. Even under dire circumcisions.. I am more afraid of what would happened in Eastern Europe in the future than in Western Europe.. Or for the sake of it, I am more afraid of what would became of US in the future.. Under Bush jr, you got very close to a dictatorship, and the same condition that was case in Nazi-Germany with Concentration camps and the lot.. But somehow I doubt that even THAT Administration was daring to go the all way, not this time around.. But what would happened if a new neo-conservative administration, with less respect for your Constitution, your Bill of Rights and less respect for the LAW came into power... That is some I fear more than if Bulgaria got a dictator for a decade.. Bulgaria are a poor country, who lack most of the power to be a military factor.. They might piss off Greek and Romania, but that is almost the most they can do.. And both Bulgaria, Romania and Greek are part of both EU and NATO, so I guess that it Will be more than difficult to be dictators there than before... Even that I doubt that Bulgaria and Romania should be member of EU and NATO for another decade or two... But that is just me then.. And nobody have to my knowledge been expelled from either NATO and EU yet..

But something I can agree with, is that this depression we have now, is no easy thing to fix, rather the opposite, for many it will be painfully, hard and horrible to survive.. But we will survive this, as our grandparents survived the Great Depression of the 1930s.. We even might learn some lessons to live within our means this time around.. And to make a far better future, with a more sharing of our wealth.. The last couple of centuries have been in the line of greed and exploiting of man.. Maybe this can learn most humans, to share more, and to let go of the pure greed that many believe in.. Maybe we got rid of the extreme ideology, like the neo-con ideology who I would say is a Cancer to humanity.. What Humanity need, is peace, and a future where we all can share little more than we do today.. Not more extremist.. I hope we one day can go back, and look at the past and say, this is what was the case in our history, but in our time we share more and are far less greedy than our ancestors was.. Maybe US would be in the lead of things again too?.. Hopefully we can work together and share more in the future than we have been doing the last couple or decades...


Diclotican
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percussivemadness Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. the end of the Euro and a return to Dollar supremacy
Edited on Thu Mar-12-09 10:50 PM by percussivemadness
I am convinced this latest "crisis" was merely a geo-political move by the US to destroy the Euro.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. i tend to agree that there's other stuff under the surface, & it's not entirely
accidental.

nor is the lack of real relief.
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