Sinn Fein leaders attend shot policeman's funeral

[B Whale]

Source: Independent

Leading Sinn Fein figures today joined government ministers, unionists and senior police officers to stand shoulder to shoulder with mourners at the funeral of PSNI Constable Stephen Carroll in another watershed moment for Northern Ireland. It was the first time party members have attended the funeral of a security forces officer killed by a republican group

Describing ‘patriotism' as “one of the most abused words in the English language,” Canon Stevenson continued: “In this very way the killers of Constable Carroll have abused the term patriotism. I see patriotism more in terms of the love of people, and specifically here in Northern Ireland the love of all its people.”


His death came just 48 hours after the murders of the two Royal Engineers by the Real IRA outside Massereene Barracks in Antrim.
Before the funeral, Canon Stevenson, along with scores of townsfolk and a boy and girl from each primary and post-primary school in the area, gathered at Downshire bridge to pray and observe a three minute silence — one minute for each of the victims.



Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sinn-fein-leaders-attend-shot-policemans-funeral-1644470.html

---

This is a stark message to the murderers still left in Northern Ireland that have no longer got a purpose or job. Its not a united ireland at any price people want, its peace.

[Captain Hilts]

1. This is great news. Good on 'em! nt

[redqueen]

2. Hopefully these events will reduce the numbers

of people either aiding or sympathizing with those fringe IRA groups.

[Lost in CT]

3. Good for them... and shame on those that still cheer on

and excuse the violence

[B Whale]

13. That's the main point CT you're right. The

people who cheer this on are generally thos who sit an ocean away. The people of NI want peace, not a united ireland at any price.

In the last week, two soldiers, hours away from going to Afghanistan were murdered picking up a pizza delivery, the two pizza delivery guys were shot for being "collaboraters" (one was a young polish immigrant) They then walked up to the 4 wounded lying on the ground and fired more than 60 bullets into them, then a catholic policeman trying to do his part in the new NI was answering a woman in distress when he was assasinated from behind, leaving a widow and family. hHe was 1 year away from retirement.

That's what these murderers want to continue. Thats the reality. They are simply killers who no longer have a role in a peaceful Ireland and the cheerleaders need to understand who it is they support. Despicable cold blooded murderers, plain and simple.

[David__77]

4. But a united Ireland is what is just.

And English colonialism must come to and end. I do not approve of this "Real IRA," but in no way should English crimes be excused.

[LostinVA]

5. Exactly -- Operation Banner is supposed to be over

That in no way excuses the killings of the Brits, but there is a history to it, and the British have promised to get out of Northern Ireland, but haven't.

[truebrit71]

6. ..and just as soon as the majority of the citizens in N.I. think that way...

...I'm sure that idea will be entertained..Until then, not so much...or is the US going to give back California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas?

[LostinVA]

7. I'm glad the Orangemen protect Northern Ireland from terrorists like these

Those horrible schoolgirls, wanting to get to school. How DARE they not want to be verbally and physically atatcked and threatened just because they happen to be CATHOLIC???

The British need to get out of NI now. And those who follow the Twelfth need to STFU and quit acting like Bull Connor.

[truebrit71]

8. Obviously hard of understanding...

...the majority of folks in NI want NOTHING to do with a 'united Ireland' and people that live in VA would be best suited to minding their own fucking business about it...I have had friends murdered by the IRA and you are more than welcome to kiss my ENTIRE ass...

[Captain Hilts]

32. I had kin in the IRA and kin in the British Army. The British Army needs to go home. nt

[B Whale]

50. The British army is in NI

like its in any other part of the UK, scotland wales and engloand. Its not occupying, its IN Britain.

They don't patrol, they're not involved in security, its a base like any other, why should they leave?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

55. One, she lives in NJ

Two, I don't think Brits have the right to say what's best for the Irish.

[B Whale]

57. What about an opinion on the British in NI?

which is most of them...

[Lost in CT]

10. And southern Ireland needs to legalize abortion...

Unless you think taking away the civil rights of hundreds of thousands of woman is a laudable goal.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Not legal in Northern Ireland, either

It's one thing all the major parties agree on, unfortunately. Some British MPs were going to add an amendment to a UK-wide bill last year, but were warned off by people saying the 4 largest Ulster parties opposed it, and they'd wreck the peace process if Britain forced it on Northern Ireland: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/northernireland/3197471/Abortion-plans-for-Northern-Ireland-abandoned-due-to-peace-process.html

[Lost in CT]

19. Good lord I had no idea... I remember the big deal when the North had divorce and birth control

and the south didn't.... not to mention that whole chattel slavery thing the south had going on in the sixties and seventies...

[B Whale]

12. Those British you talk of were there

before America existed. What would you do with them, deport them back to the mainland? Maybe you should ask the people of Northern Ireland what they want.

Its funny how the people who want to see the violence continued are those who sit oceans away clinging to a lost identity.

(BTW, the thousands that turned out today for the police officer's funeral were both catholic and protestant, the policeman was an irish catholic, and the murderers were the Real IRA. His brains were blown all over his windscreen and he has two children. What a glorious struggle)

[Lost in CT]

20. The "British" have been there since 1170 AD...

This would be like kicking the invading Aztecs out of Mexico....

[silverojo]

66. To whom? The people we BOUGHT it from? - n/t

[B Whale]

68. No, the people it was stolen from

particularly Texas, violently.

Manifest destiny and all that. America was a very small place until that expansion westwards. The native americans have a good shout on a lot of it as well

[Stella_Artois]

23. Prove that

Prove where the British have promised to get out of Northern Ireland, because i have never heard of such a thing.

As for Op Banner, that is over. They no longer patrol the streets. The specific barracks that were attacked is CLOSING NEXT YEAR. The specific troops that were murdered were leaving the NEXT DAY. The muderers had only to wait a short time before the "occupiers" would have been gone. Perhaps that doesn't suit them. Perhaps they want a return to the old days.

However, you seem to be confused between Op Banner and the British Army being in Northern Ireland. The British Army is in Northern Ireland like it is in England, Scotland and Wales. Or perhaps you are just being willfully misleading.

[jivehombre]

74. British Occupation

The British Army is in Northern Ireland like it is in England,
Scotland and Wales. 
Facts are facts and value judgements are value judgements .
The U.S.army is in Iraq and Afghanistan.Does saying that mean
they should be.

[Stella_Artois]

76. Thanks for the softball.

Neither Iraq or Afghanistan is a US state, sends representatives to Washington or pays for the US army through its own taxation.

They also have their own armed forces, and governments.....albeit dependant on US help for the foreseeable future.

Futhermore, the US army does not recruit Iraqi or Afghan citizens directly into its own ranks.

Gee i could find another dozen reasons why the two issues are completely different. Talk about comparing apples to oranges. Its more like comparing apples to fish.

[Nihil]

78. Nice hit!

BTW, don't you love it when people create new accounts just to turn
up and post the same old crap on controversial subjects?

"Its more like comparing apples to fish"
:rofl:

[harmonicon]

9. the time when that mattered is long over

The UK and Ireland have basically open borders - you don't need a passport to travel from one to the other. As both are EU members, citizens of each country have a right to live and work in the other, and do as they please. Sure, someone in Belfast votes for a different national government than someone in Dublin, but I have yet to meet anyone here in the UK who cares; not the English, not the Irish, not people from Northern Ireland. The war is over, and no one won. Those fighting for a united Ireland didn't win, and the English didn't win - time and progress beat the both of them.

[B Whale]

14. well said

Good analysis. Everyone realised that we all lose when we fight and kill eachother. People get tired and want peace and NI is now a more prosperous and free place to be because of that.

The killers have simply been left without a role in a peaceful Northern Ireland.

[LeftishBrit]

77. Great post!

[B Whale]

11. There is no English colonialism in Ireland. What

the people of NI want is peace, and a majority in NI want to remain British. What would you do with those people? Deport them back to the mainland?

British protestants were in NI before America existed. Who would you give America back to? What about New Mexico and Texas? Its not as simple as Irish Americans make out. You need to get some facts and a history lesson before stating what is just and giving a cloak to violence, and maybe ask the people of NI what they want.

Its not a glorious struggle with teary eyed celtic songs, it invloves blowing peoples brains out who have families.

[DavidDvorkin]

15. All of that never seems to get through to

those Americans who romanticize Ireland and its history.

[catnhatnh]

24. Yep, I'm one romantic motherfucker...

when it comes to some portions of my family being starved to death in their homes by invaders while others were merely forced into the happy exile this country became. I'm an American without dreams of repatriation. I'll drink no green beer this week nor sing "Danny Boy". But when some JERK claims resentment of planned genocide="romanticizing" I draw a line. I stopped supporting the IRA in the 90's and do not support the "Real IRA" because they ain't. But don't piss English propaganda on my head and tell me it's raining. The political wing now speaks for me and I grieve for these victims. But I don't romanticize SHIT and your saying so is BULLSHIT.

[DavidDvorkin]

25. It's not the past you're romanticizing

It's the present.

And your calling me a jerk is sufficient reason to add you to my Ignore list. Goodbye.

[catnhatnh]

28. Oh my GOD...

...I'm being ignored by an author (and I revere most of them) of not one but THREE "Star Trek" novels whose blog features a post called "Were I the King of Anglophonia.". This is the type of deep thinker I normally try not to piss off with facts. But in this case I'll settle for just "Piss Off.". Glad I'm on the "ignore" list-otherwise he would see this and excoriate me with his superior anglophile wit...

[B Whale]

52. BTW, just to get clear, a question

People in Britain (children, wives, fathers) were murdered by the IRA. Wholly innocent citizens who had never harmed an Irish person n their life. In fact, the same working class people who fucked over like slaves in the industrial revolution by the ruling class as a matter of fact.

The question is, as you say you supported the IRA financially up until the 90s. Can you look me in the eye (metaphorically)and tell me those people deserved to die?

[Nihil]

79. *crickets*

> The question is, as you say you supported the IRA financially up until
> the 90s. Can you look me in the eye (metaphorically)and tell me those
> people deserved to die?

Just thought I'd remind the self-confessed sponsor of murderers
that your question is awaiting an answer as sometimes these little
things get mislaid over the weekend.

:hi:

[Taverner]

80. The "True believers" of either side do not view the other side as human

So yes, he or she probably does think the children deserved to die, because someone killed his great-great-great-great grandpa back when the new gadget on the block was the longbow.

[truebrit71]

26. Did this happen recently to your family?

If you are an American, and you live in the USA you have already been "repatriated"....it was called "being born"...

You supported the IRA? Really?

Wow.

[catnhatnh]

29. As a "truebrit" I'm surprised you forgot the dates between which Ireland was decimated twice over...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Potato_Famine

Please pay close attention to section 3.1 "Food Exports to England" which documents the following:

Records show Irish lands exported food even during the worst years of the Famine. When Ireland experienced a famine in 1782–83, ports were closed to keep Irish-grown food in Ireland to feed the Irish. Local food prices promptly dropped. Merchants lobbied against the export ban, but government in the 1780s overrode their protests; an export ban did not happen in the 1840s.<64>(snip)

Christine Kinealy, a University of Liverpool fellow and author of two texts on the famine, Irish Famine: This Great Calamity and A Death-Dealing Famine, writes that Irish exports of calves, livestock (except pigs), bacon and ham actually increased during the famine. The food was shipped under guard from the most famine-stricken parts of Ireland. However, the poor had no money to buy food and the government then did not ban exports.(snip)

Evictions were also a problem:

According to James S. Donnelly Jr, it is impossible to be sure how many people were evicted during the years of the famine and its immediate aftermath. It was only in 1849 that the police began to keep a count, and they recorded a total of almost 250,000 persons as officially evicted between 1849 and 1854.<76>(snip)

The Mahon family, Strokestown House alone in 1847 evicted 3,000 people, and according to John Gibney were still able to dine on lobster soup.<80>

And so we left:

By 1854, between 1½ and 2 million Irish left their country due to evictions, starvation, and harsh living conditions. In America, most Irish became city-dwellers: with little money, many had to settle in the cities that the ships they came on landed in. By 1850, the Irish made up a quarter of the population in Boston, Massachusetts; New York City; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; and Baltimore, Maryland. In addition, Irish populations became prevalent in some American mining communities.

Repatriated:

Most countries in central and eastern Europe as well as Germany, Greece, Armenia, France, China, Japan, Norway, Finland, Philippines, Ireland, Turkey and Israel have repatriation laws. This gives non-citizen foreigners who are part of the titular majority group the opportunity to immigrate and receive citizenship. Repatriation of their titular diaspora is practiced by most ethnic nation states. The most famous repatriation law is Israel's Law of Return.

And to finish...You bet your ass I did and with every bit of cash I could spare. As a "truebrit" you should be apologizing, not "WOW"ing.

[Stella_Artois]

34. You funded the IRA in revenge for things that happened centuries ago

You'll be pleased to hear that your money was well spent, on the bombings of shops and pubs. Good job for each civilian the IRA murdered that a dozen dead Irish from the famine sprang back into life.

[Taverner]

81. Indeed - pure revenge

The poster's great great great grandpa was killed, and thus, English children today have to die :eyes:

Hey - I'm Jewish. Can I take that whole Hitler thing out on catnhatnh? I mean, there were Irish Republicans who sided with the NAZIs just to get back at the Brits. Can I bomb your family, catnhatnh? It seems only fair.

[Stella_Artois]

83. It is an interesting comparison

I have never heard of American Jews funding terror in Germany, or Armenian-Americans funding terror in Turkey. There are also Italian-Americans who don't seem to hold too much of a grudge against countries who at various points have persecuted Italians before it existed as a nation.

Some Irish-Americans however do think that different rules apply. These few no doubt do not think that their rules apply to Pakistani-Americans funding terror on the north west frontier.

[Codeine]

36. Your cash

murdered civilians and funded a campaign of terror and organized crime. Shame.

[steaa]

40. ...

Its good to know that you admit funding a terrorist group that killed and maimed thousands during my childhood growing up...and within a whisker of my father getting blown up too may I add, unfortunately his co-workers weren't as lucky as he was..

A rather amusing story too; one of the times village was bombed by the PIRA when I was young, my friends mother ended up locking him in the garage for that day out of pure fear. Never sure why but we always found that story very amusing.


At the end of the day, the only land any of us will get is a 6 ft hole in the ground.



You should be ashamed of yourself.

[B Whale]

46. You might want to blame Irish landowners for that

rather than the British people. They were called Anglo Irish in your language simply because they were protestant and the Irish Americans can't stand the idea of irish protestants.

Just give you one example of where your hard earned cash went my friend. On 21st November 1974 the IRA put two bombs in two pubs in birmingham gave no warning and murdered 21 working class lads and lasses on a night out after a hard week. What the fuck did they have to do with anything you scumbag?

You've probably never seen people's scalp and hair splattered across pub windows and in the street, or seen legs and arms and heads lying amongst the 184 injured. That's the reality of the glorious struggle you funded. Dirty cowardly killing of innocent people.

And its funny the most passionate support and money comes from across the ocean, miles from the violence, from people trying to cling to their identity, singing teary eyed songs they know nothing about and lining the pockets of murderers.

I hope you're proud.

[truebrit71]

71. Funny how those dates are from so long ago it has nothing to do with you...

..and the present day. The difference between you and me (other than the fact that I have NEVER given so much as a penny to a known terrorist organisation full of bullshit artists and cowards) is that you were born in America and are therefore American (you were "patriated" when you were born here) whereas I was actually born in a different country than the one I reside in so I actually would have a country to be re-patriated to...

Drinking Guiness, eating corned beef and cabbage, and saying "fuck the British" because it's the cool thing to say in your "Irish" pubs, doesn't make you Irish, or make the wrongs that occurred in the past "yours". It sure as fuck does NOT excuse you funding murderers that are NO DIFFERENT than the cowards that attacked the USA in 2001, especially when done from the safety of your barstool in the US...How brave and courageous you must have felt...

Me apologize to you because of my heritage? Don't make me laugh. "Every bit of cash I could spare" has never DIRECTLY funded murderers as you have done. How you live with yourself is beyond me. It is YOU that owes the apology, to the families of innocent victims you helped kill.

[FarrenH]

73. n/m

[Stella_Artois]

27. Good grief

I'd hate to hear your opinions on the Germans, Japanese, Italians, French, Scots, Vietamese, Koreans and who knows who else who may have done harm to people in your family tree in the last 500 years.

Personally, i have a special hate for the Romans who took my cousin 343 times removed into slavery.

Btw, those "English" may well have been Welsh, or Scots. Or Dutch, or German, depending on when and who. Hell, some of them may have been Swiss mercenaries.

[catnhatnh]

30. Yep....It's ancient history....

unless of course, nearly 50 years ago I was told by the (then ancient) children of the dispossessed. So were not talking the contemporaries of "I Claudius"-we are talking about my grandparents and my great grandparents were the dispossessed. The many nationalities you propose all existed as those hired by the foreign landed gentry SINCE they cared not to deal with natives. To have power over the lowly native born my family were.

[Stella_Artois]

35. I'm glad you exist and are posting here.

Your hate is handed down through your family like an heirloom, or rather a cancer.

Having a very small number of people like you who fund more death and hate from your peaceful lives thousands of miles away serve to remind us how far we have come over here in the place where it actually matters.

People like you are a throwback to the 1970's. We can compare ourselves to you and feel good.

[catnhatnh]

45. Actually I stopped sending cash

with the Mitchell initiative. But if you wish to prove you both live in Ireland and are non-ascendant I will apologize. But I'm betting you are neither.

[B Whale]

48. You are nothing like the Irish

I know. Your hatred comes from yourself, not any percieved injustice. People like you feed on hate, you may want to see the reality of violence and murder sometimes from your pampered life over there.

Would you support native americans murdering your neighbours, or mexicans blowing up restaraunts in texas on a weekend.?

you really need to get a grip on reality and direct your hatred somewhere, the only person its going to damage is yourself (apart of course from the innocent dead people in pubs and post offices that you are complicit in the murder of, but hey, keep up the good fight)

[Stella_Artois]

69. I have an idea

Donate yourself to a museum of the troubles. Its where you belong.

[Stella_Artois]

70. I have nothing to prove to you

Any more than i need to prove anything to any relic of times past.

I'm about to get in my car and drive to a place. On my way there i will drive past the exact location where the PIRA, perhaps with your money, murdered an unarmed part time policeman, who merely stopped by their car to see if they needed help. I've driven past the spot with my children hundreds of times. Lucky i didn't drive past then or they may be dead too.

Have my pity, but don't accept it. I don't care either way.

[Taverner]

82. Damn you for supporting the NAZIs!!!!

I mean, you know a bunch of Irish folk fought for Hitler in WWII, so by your logic that's all your fault.

[B Whale]

49. "planned genocide"?

You are a fantasist my friend.

Maybe pick up a history book that doesn't share your view point because there's a hell of a lot out there.

Once you've read have a real think about that period in time and come back with planned genocide. you're looking for victim status where you ain't gonna find it and you are relaying on myths and fantasy to back up your claims.

Its fine as long as you're not supporting murder, but you are, so stop.

[David__77]

16. Not as a majority.

They were there, but settler colonialism is what created an English majority. Demographic trends show that an Irish majority is likely in the coming years. We will see what the majority wants at that point. I'd be just fine if Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland split off from the UK. Then I suppose it would be simply the "Kingdom."

[B Whale]

18. Its not an 'English majority' its British. Lots from

Scotland as well.

Your point is exactly right about the demographics, currently the majority want to remain British, in the future they may not. As long as its done politically and peacefully.

My bet is that in a few decades NI may be independent of both Ireland and Britain as a settlement to the conflict, with both communities able to keep their identity.

I would dispute your point about settler colonialism creating a majority. Since Henry protestants have settled in Ireland, and many persecuted in the south leading up to 1690. In addition , in 1891 Ireland was 10% protestant. In 1991 it was 3%. That's a fall of 70% of the population leaving. They went North.

[Codeine]

37. Well thankfully,

you don't get to decide.

[Captain Hilts]

33. Where'd that Orange color on the flag come from then????

[B Whale]

43. Holland

William of Orange. ...Before America even existed...

[Captain Hilts]

59. Sorry! My family is English on one side, Irish the other. Dad born in Brighton. nt

[B Whale]

65. Brighton's a lovely part of the world.

Other end of the country from me however but nice all the same.

[jivehombre]

75. National Question

What about New Mexico and Texas? I (as a person who benefits from the settler colonialist occupation)I support the Chicanos (Mexican Americans)and undocumented Mexicans right to self determination in their previous land.Yes my patriotism is hindered by history.Try it what you got to lose?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. Given the way the EU works, Irish nationalism is really an antique concept

[B Whale]

67. Good point. The EU has ensured the

longest period of peace in Europe in its history

[New Dawn]

84. The Anglo-Saxon chauvinists are out in force in this thread.

They always love to deny the genocide that their empires have committed.

[MaineDem]

21. Of course they attended.

Why wouldn't they?

[B Whale]

22. Its the first time anyone in Sinn Fein has

ever attended the funeral of a murdered policeman.

Its momentous.

[Codeine]

38. Because they don't normally. nt

[MaineDem]

72. These are different times

There's a new "normal". This death is not condoned.

[two gun sid]

31. I'm glad they attended. It was the right thing to do.

The war is over and the dissident groupings need to realize that. That being said, the loyalists should also realize a United Ireland is coming. They can't say NO anymore. The Brits will leave and it will be one country.

Up Sinn Fein and up The Peace Process!

Peace

[Codeine]

39. Why can't they say "no?"

If that's the will of the majority there then that's the way it is, regardless of what starry-eyed Irish-Americans would like to think.

[two gun sid]

41. If you believe that, you are not paying attention.

There are a lot of different reasons why NO is not gonna be possible over the next 20-30 years. Demographics. Economics. The fact that the Brits and the Irish Government are working together to find a solution to the problem. The treaty that formed the wee six was always a temporary arrangement and even the men who signed it knew they were just buying time.

The Brits have no reason to stay and NI has been a big drag on their economy. They spend a helluva a lot of their tax dollars there and for what? I believe, according to the latest polling, the majority of the British public would like to get out of NI.

As for your smartassed reply: Fuck you, fuckstick.

[Codeine]

42. Actually,

I firmly believe they will have a united Ireland rather sooner than later, but it's not a case of "can't say no" but rather a case of "will eventually want to say yes."

Your expletive and anger seems unwarranted in view of my fairly mild comment, but whatever. :hi:

[B Whale]

44. Sinn Fein are definitely playing the long game

but don't bank on a united ireland. My bets, being from England, is a country will come about in a few decades seperate from both Britain and Ireland but benefitting from both, so both communities can have their identity.

And i think that would be fair given the history and that many protestant families can trace their ancestry as far back as catholic families

As long as its peace though, thats all that matters for now.

[two gun sid]

47. There may be a country seperate...

from Britain and the Republic, something like the old Eire Nua plan, with a separate parliament for the six counties. And that will work for awhile. I certainly do not want to see the Loyalist community smothered and I don't think they will be. We need to be careful and careful again to protect the rights of the protestants and dissenters. It will take time to convince that community that they have nothing to fear and they will have representation in government and Sinn Fein made a huge stride by attending the PSNI officers funeral. The Provo's are decommissioned and that helps. I'd like to see the loyalist paramilitaries start a process were they give up their guns and bombs too. I think it was a real blow to the more progressive elements of the UVF when Davis Ervine passed away. We need more voices like his.


Discussions about the economy and a united Ireland.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=298x1436

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=298x1542

[B Whale]

51. I agree. i'm also committed to removing

state funding for faith schools. this will be resisted by both churches and a lot of parties but is a must in my book. (same in Scotland as well. West scotland is just like NI without the bombs)

[two gun sid]

53. Good point and I agree completely.

Do you live in Scotland? My best friend from the military is a Scotsman. I love him like a brother.

Slainte.

[B Whale]

56. No, Northern England

but a lot of inter-marrying being from the borders

[two gun sid]

61. I'm raising my glass of Jamesons' to Britain right now.

And giving a toast to all the Jordys in the north of England. I'm glad the war is over. I do wish to extend my sympathies for the two squaddies that were killed the other day. I hope they will be last to lose their lives in NI. Killing those boys was senseless.

Up Sinn Fein and Up The Peace Process!

Beannachtaí na Féile Pádraig oraibh!

[B Whale]

63. Its 'Geordies' btw but thanks

and if you're looking for nice whiskey 'Jura' is the fella. You will never taste anything nicer. (Its a bottle of brown ale for me of course)

:toast:

[Ken Burch]

54. Because nothing but ugliness and death and hatred has come of their saying "no"

It's time for anyone in the Loyalist/Unionist community who still holds to the delusion that the Irish Republic is some sort of Catholic version of Enver Hoxha's Albania to accept that that simply isn't true. It's just another country and they'd lose nothing by joining it.

Granted, unification probably won't happen anytime soon, but the Loyalist/Unionist types at least have to let go of the obsession with always having the upper hand over the Catholic/Republicans. Some of them have, but too many haven't (as evidenced by the continued support for Paisley's party).

They should just let devolved power-sharing go forward with no further delays and shutdowns. The Republican/nationalist side has conceded enough already.

[B Whale]

58. "They should just let devolved power-sharing go forward

with no further delays and shutdowns" That's exactly what has happened.

You can't come at it with such bias. That is what all the stubborn problems have been about all these years. I could reverse your argument "It's time for anyone in the Loyalist/Unionist community who still holds to the delusion that the Irish Republic is some sort of Catholic version of Enver Hoxha's Albania to accept that that simply isn't true. It's just another country and they'd lose nothing by joining it"

and say the catholic's have nothing to lose by remaining British. they should just get on with it. It doesn't work like that.

These are British people who are protestant, have a strong identity and link with the land there going back 500 years and more in some cases. Some (a minority) are Irish protestants from the south who were seeking protection in the North in the 1680s. Its a complex problem, hence the complex situation.

The main thing is peace.

[Ken Burch]

60. It has finally gone forward, but there should never have been the suspensions of the past.

You could easily have had a situation in which those suspensions led to Gerry Adams' and Martin McGuinness's assassinations, which would then have had no other possible consequence but the resumption of the troubles. Paisley and his ilk were insisting that the IRA essentially surrender first, thus accepting humiliation. This was because Paisley and his party(at that time)didn't want peace.

As he's come closer to the end, probably wanting to get right with God, Paisley has softened somewhat. But everything would have been better if the Loyalists hadn't insisted on bringing things to a stop over and over.

Like you, I want peace. It's because I want peace that I have such bitter feelings towards those who tried to prevent it by insisting on delaying the GFA and power-sharing. And the best way to have power-sharing go forward was to accept the equality of the communities within it.

BTW, I'm Protestant and have no great love for the Church of Rome. I just can't see why the Loyalist/Unionists could accept that their paranoia about the Republic was utterly unfounded.

[B Whale]

62. i understand what your saying but that is

completely a one sided view of the peace process and why it hasn't moved forward in the past.

Mcguiness and Adams are not blameless in what you lay out. In addition Paisley has not got a private army behind him, adams and mcguiness have. (although i accept paisley is extreme)