Sex claims against US Church rise

[IndianaGreen]

Source: BBC News

Sex claims against US Church rise

Page last updated at 03:40 GMT, Saturday, 14 March 2009

The number of new claims of sexual abuse made against US Roman Catholic priests rose by 16% to more than 800 last year, a Church report says.

It says the Church paid $436m (£313m) in 2008 for abuse cases. Most of the money was used to compensate victims.

The study covered almost 200 dioceses and religious orders across the US.

It found that more than one in five victims were under the age of 10 when they were abused.

Although the number of claims made against the Church rose in 2008, the total cost dropped by 29% compared to the previous year.

The Associated Press news agency said 2007 was an unusually high year, when the Archdiocese of Los Angeles began paying a $660m settlement to about 500 people.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7943368.stm

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

1. I stopped following this story

once I learned the Archdiocese of San Diego hid assets to avoid paying larger settlements to victims. It was at that moment that I knew I was pretty much fated to be at war with my own church's hierarchy.

[EFerrari]

9. Same here. n/t

[SpiralHawk]

26. Yup, the Pope & cronies lost my Sainted Mother after 80 years of intense devotion

She finally hit the wall after the Boston archdiocese lied and lied and lied to protect the predator priests, while doing everything possible to shaft the victims.

She could not follow that republicon-like hypocrisy -- and the Catholic Church lost her forever. She's 89 now, and if she were younger she would be storming the Vatican demanding justice.

(Footnote: they lost me in 2nd grade. That's another story altogether, nothing to do with sexual abuse, but with general lies and hypocrisy in the nuns and priests who attempted to overlord my life...)

[Occulus]

78. Why not just leave?

The problem didn't stop when you stopped paying attention to it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

92. what have you done to fight them?

[glinda]

2. I am claiming discrimination since women cannot claim "past rapes" from years ago and

claim damages. Seems a bit unfair.

[LeftyMom]

4. Women aren't minors. By definition.

[No Elephants]

7. But they once were.

[LeftyMom]

10. In which case they would benefit from the provision allowing delayed reporting of abuse of a minor.

There's plenty of real sexism in the world without complaining whenever some other mistreated group finally gets a little justice.

[No Elephants]

33. That is exactly what I meant. Gender has nothing to do with it. And I would

never complain about any person or group getting justice.

I live in Massachusetts, where many of the lawsuits and a criminal complaint were filed and I know one of the lawyers who brought the suit against Fr. Porter. Massachusetts was also the site of the priest who had an affair with a married woman, fathering two of her children. Her depression lead to a lobotomy. He continued the affair after the lobotomy. And, one night, when he there, she went into physical distress. He left. She died. He is still a priest, although now retired.

[CoffeeCat]

31. I reported...

...sexual abuse that happened to me as a child.

Nothing was done.

It is unjust.

[NashVegas]

56. I'm So Sorry

I did, as well, without any intention of filing a lawsuit. The benefit was in seeing that as much as I dreaded dealing with the church, they were *terrified* of me. What I got out of that was priceless.

[CoffeeCat]

89. Wow, that's inspiring...

Really, as a survivor of sexual abuse--I am happy for you, that your perpetrators were terrified of *you*.

I bet that was healing to have the tables turned. As children, we are so terrified, often into silence.

That's part of the trauma. We're so scared--so we bear so much by ourselves, in our own minds.

No matter what happened--you got a certain kind of justice.

You were able to set the record straight--that you were right and they were criminals. That sets the
record straight. To a victim, that means so much.

I am very happy for you, that you were courageous enough to report your abuse. That took guts.

I hope you are doing well. Hugs to you. :hug:

[No Elephants]

57. Depends. To whom did you report it? If the police, had the statute of limitations

in your jurisdiction expired? Not all jurisdictions allow indefinite delay for child victims of sexual abuse. Sometimes you have to act as soon as you are of age. If the criminal statute of limitations expired, not much you can do except lobby for a new law to help future victims.

Did you report it to a lawyer to see if you had a case?

Or did you report it to the Church?

Whatever it was, I doubt the result was based solely on gender.

[CoffeeCat]

88. I reported it to the police...

...but one of my perpetrators was a former police officer who worked for the dept to which
I made the complain.

The statute of limitations didn't run out, because there were pictures taken of me
as a child, by this cop. There is no statute of limitations on child pornography.

Again, nothing was ever done.

Nothing ever will be done.

I've pretty much come to terms with that. However, these people were animals, and I doubt
they stopped what they were doing. I appeal to a higher power incessantly, hoping that
these people aren't creating new victims.

My therapist guided me through this entire process, when I finally decided to come forward.

He's told me that he sees countless examples of our justice system not helping victims. He
calls it our "injustice system".

I'm doing well. I've moved on, but there's always a part of you that never dies--that hopes
for a miracle.

[No Elephants]

6. Why can't they? Females were among the rape victims of Father Porter in Massachusetts. And

why did you put rapes in quotation marks?

[woo me with science]

35. Realistic delayed claims should be allowed, but

it is critical to have a systematic way of separating the valid claims from the claims based on malingering or recovered memories.

[No Elephants]

58. The issue is not whether a memory is recovered or not, but whether a recovered

memory is false or not. If the memory is true, I have no problem letting someone sue within a reasonable time after recovering the memory. As far as I;m concerned, that's the chance predators take when they prey on a child and mess a kid's mind for life.

[caseymoz]

52. They definitely can.

If many women come forward and claim rape against a guy, or guys in an organization, years later, and then that organization made moves to hide evidence or to transfer those men out of the jurisdiction, then you bet they could claim damages. They could definitely claim damages against the guy responsible, provided he's rich enough to collect damages from. This would apply, of course, and even more, if the women were minors at the time of the rapes.

There evidence problems with a rape case happening decades before. If you only have one incident of rape and there were no witnesses and no evidence, the case is not going to go anywhere. Molesters usually get away with it years later because the victims are isolated from each other.

[geek tragedy]

3. Has Ratzo excommunicated the victims yet? n/t

[bottomtheweaver]

5. Don't look now

but sexual abuse is equally distributed among clergy of all religions, if you see what I mean.

[No Elephants]

8. Perhaps, but perhaps there are significant differences between the Catholic Church and other

religions that are very relevant to the issue of sexual abuse. And perhaps there was an institutional cover up and enabling that was not even possible in other contexts.

[EFerrari]

11. The only difference that I can see is that the Catholic Church is older

more experienced and has a better infrastructure and a fatter wallet.

[clixtox]

12. I can think of another significant difference...

Roman Catholic priests swear to remain celibate, a sacrifice to "seal the deal" with "God"!

Hypocrisy, stupidity and inertia define that institution today.

The Catholic pope is so fallible now that he is a embarrassment to religionists in general.

Anyone who can believe all those "religious" fantasies is obviously vulnerable to manipulation and exploitation in many ways.

Conversely those who promulgate such obvious claptrap are likely to be twisted in the process of sowing confusion and rotten, out-of-date bologna.

The Catholic Church has been an elaborate scam since almost the beginning.

All surviving religions are scams promulgated by charlatans on folks who often are just looking for community; a tribe or extended family.

Get real.

Think!

For yourself...

[DCKit]

14. The Neocon, Republic Homelander role model?

It's always someone else's fault.

Damn those sexy kids and their enticing demeanor.

[EFerrari]

16. How did this comparison devolve into a lecture?

lol

[clixtox]

40. I am not ashamed, or sorry, to believe that religions...

are atavistic anachronisms whose death throes are generating, or are responsible for, much of today's significantly divisive dynamics. Folks who persist in these beliefs and predicate their behavior on, and demand that others follow, ridiculously stupid dogma need to be recognized and assisted into the 21st century. IMHO

That's how a lecture evolved, or devolved, depending on one's perspective.

Organized religions and their adherents are impediments to progressive societies goal of equality, human rights and justice for all.

Read, or believe, as you please, or not...

Thinking for one's self is the point.

Don't continue to believe something because many others say that they believe, whatever.

Think critically.

Outside the "box".

[EFerrari]

41. But you should be a little ashamed to lecture me because

you have no idea what I "believe" or not and it's rude to lecture people you don't even know unless you pay them the same hourly rate therapists get.

[clixtox]

55. I am not ashamed, and I won't be, even a little.

And why would I care, even a little smidgen, what you believe... Even if you are maladroitly channeling Emily Post or Dear Abby.

And I doubt that I was lecturing you or saying anything that you found new or illuminating.

Provocative apparently enough though for you to stop making the kind of sense I have appreciated from you in numerous other threads.

You assumed for your own reasons that I was lecturing you. You headlined your post, "But you should be a little ashamed to lecture me". What hubris, especially your absolutely bizarre assertion that I should be paying you for supposedly being the focus of my previous post.

What I was doing was responded to your post, " The only difference that I can see is that the Catholic Church is older more experienced and has a better infrastructure and a fatter wallet." There are, of course, numerous additional germane differences as brought up by me and again further down this thread. Your limiting the differences to those you mentioned by using the word, "only", indicated someone possibly attempting to control the discussion, so I responded.

I still don't care what you believe, but please pick your battles armed with a viable thesis and better quality ammunition.

Please!

I dislike having the feeling that I am having interactions with a child.

[IndianaGreen]

24. The celibate priesthood acts as a magnet to people having unresolved sexual conflicts

The ban on married priests and women priests is not conducive to a well balanced and adjusted clergy.

[EFerrari]

38. I agree but isn't it also true that dysfunctional sex is a feature

of authoritarian ventures -- which probably covers most Christian sects by definition? Jim Baker comes to mind. I don't want to ever minimize any abuse that children suffered at the hand of the Catholic Church. But that abuse is certainly not limited to that church, unfortunately.

[defendandprotect]

44. Some of the priest abusers seem to have arrested development . . .

their normal instincts re sexuality just stopped, leaving them emotionally/sexually

at age 14 or less ... they identify only immaturely.

All of patriarchal religion --- including Old Testament -- is based on patriarchy and

subversion of females. That's a strong beginning for devaluing female life/thought/

opinion. The object of patriarchy is control -- of nature and women -- and controlling

females entails controlling sexuality. Patriarchy has perverted human sexuality.

When we reflect on the homophobia of patriarchy, as well -- it gets even more ocmplicated!

I think at some point they had 100,000 victims . . . now grown up! But they say that

is probably only 20% of them -- most don't report the abuse. Therefore, I guess we're

talking about at least a half million victims. Could any other church have hidden as much

as the Catholic Church did -- I mean they were paying "hush" money to victims.

Meanwhile, Italians say that this sexual abuse has been going on in Vatican/RCC since the

inception of the Church. Well, at least after 400 years when they stopped permitting priests

to marry!

Anything's possible . . . perhaps at some point all of this will be uncovered?

[No Elephants]

60. I thought Baker was a gardern variety adulterer, not a child abuser. Not that I'm

condoning adultery, but I never heard it described as having dysfunctional sex before.

[No Elephants]

34. Really? Those are the only differences you see between the Catholic

Church and all other religions? Huh.

[EFerrari]

37. I meant specifically, in the way that predations are carried out

on their congregants. It's bigger and more organized and has more money to throw at their scandals when they are exposed. The Catholic Church has to be one of the oldest political bodies / powers on the planet. :shrug:

People point to celibacy and say that's an underlying cause of abuses but, I don't think pedophilia is caused by celibacy, do you? And in most churches, celibacy is the norm / rule outside a marriage bed, right?

[defendandprotect]

46. Well, yes . . .

I think Italians who have known the Vatican/RCC much longer than others say that

this sexual abuse of children has been going on since inception of the church.

Year 400 was when they stopped permitting priests to marry and introduced celibacy.

I don't think anyone is saying that "pedophilia is caused by celibacy" . . .

I think they are saying that since 400 the church has appealed to males who are not

interested in a union with females, or willing to deny those interests.

Hetereosexuals are 100X more likely to abuse children than homosexuals.

In fact, in Hawaii -- and I presume in other societies -- they celebrated homosexuals

as adopting parents. They would care for children who were without parents.

So, the Vatican/RCC has required that a good bit of the normal life-force, desire for

children, bonding with women and children is cut off. That has to lead to distorted

personality, IMO.

[mahina]

73. ? News to me...

"In fact, in Hawaii -- and I presume in other societies -- they celebrated homosexuals as adopting parents."

Working as hard as we all are for the civil unions bill, and having grown up in this culture, I would have thought I'd have heard of this idea before, but have not.

[defendandprotect]

86. Well, I read that quite a very long time ago . . .

I've never actually looked it up, but I'll give it a try sometime later --

Certainly Hawaiians didn't have a culture which was shy of sexuality, nor I presume

of homosexuality.

I also think it is impressive that hetereosexuals are 100X more likely to sexually

abuse children than homosexuals are -- !

:)


PS: Just quickly coming off this search . . . http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Old+Hawaiian+culture+and+sexuality&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

I found two lovely articles -- nothing specific yet re homosexuals as adoptive parents ---

but, btw, homosexuals seem to me to be doing just fine here in America as adoptive parents!

http://www.hawaiiscene.com/odyssey/homohi/98nov.htm

In just reading this first link, I think it is humorous that the visitors who had very

perverted ideas of sexuality thought the Hawaiians unusual and were "aghast/shocked!

While I think it has always been quite clear that there is a connection between patriarchy's

war on women and it's intolerance for homosexuality -- after reading the article I think it's

even clearer that notions of a bisexual population could lead to notions of a bisexual creator!

and I even better liked this link from the third article . .

http://tantra-intimacy-aspergers.com/maiolasexualhealth/id5.html

Of course it was the invading Westerner who was diseased in mind, body, spirit!

Pleasure as the meaning of life! I believe that!

[defendandprotect]

87. Balance of edit is here . . .

Evidently, I was editing too slowly and time was up!!!


Pleasure as the meaning of life! I believe that!

The second paragraph is even more interesting .... male/female "gods" and Lomilomi massage....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lomilomi_massage --

Note that . . . "After American missionaries arrived in 1820 and converted many in the Kingdom of Hawaii to Christianity, traditional healing arts were scorned as heathen and primitive. Various laws prohibited "heathen" worship and any related Native Hawaiian healing practices. Lomilomi as part of medical practice went underground. But lomilomi as restorative massage remained popular not only among the Hawaiians, but among foreign residents and visitors as well."

This was spiritual, of course -- practiced by everyone.

The early Polynesian settlers brought their own form of massage and, like a canoe plant, it evolved to become something uniquely Hawaiian. It was practiced by everyone, from child to chief. As an indigenous practice that evolved over hundreds of years in isolated valleys throughout the island chain, there are many different "schools" of lomilomi with different approaches and techniques.

This also confirms other info I've been reading that it was anointing with oil as a family

practice/massage which was sacred and that Christianity replaced it with "baptism" --!!!

The sense of sacredness in sexual expression was probably so pervasive and natural that any other state was unimaginable until Hawai'i was overrun with foreign influences and the people and culture were attacked and repressed.

If you read "The Da Vinci Code," you might also recall the suggestion that in the Jesus line

they were practicing intercourse as a sacrament -- and put it publickly on display!

Sadly, I've also read that only about 20% of the population of Hawaii is Hawaiian!

And, presume, like Native Americans here, their culture has been constantly under attack.

Love, naturalness, openness and health must give way to corruption, perversion, secrecy and disease!

[mahina]

90. Yeah, well. You lost me on the Da Vinci code reference,

as if it was based in reality. But hey. It takes all kinds to run a world.

Regarding our population, we are on a major upsurge culturally. More people speak Hawaiian than in my or my parent's lifetimes. People of all races. It's a beautiful thing.

Hoping we can see equal rights for all, including the right to raise your children within your own family, however you choose to live it.

[defendandprotect]

91. That's funny. . ..

I thought you meant by your culture/community that you were homosexual!!

Re the Da Vinci code it is based in a challenge to Bibical myth.

And, personally, I find it more likely that Jesus would have been married --

and probably to Mary -- and from what we can see of native societies they

respected human sexuality; not a respect shared by perverted Christianity which

generally tore these native beliefs from them.

I've never been to Hawaii but greatly admire the old Hawaiian spirituality and

glad to hear of the cultural upsurge!

Do you disagree that only 20% of Hawaiians now are native Hawaiians?

[mahina]

93. Hi again,

no, don't agree, by definition a Hawaiian is a native Hawaiian. We don't use the word like you use
'Californian'. A resident of Hawaii is a local resident, not nec. a Hawaiian.

Yes, demographically, the Hawaiian population is about 20% of the total pop, other groups including local Japanese, Chinese, Filipinos and caucasians, as well as recent immigrants from Vietnam. Etc.

Considering the devastating genocide that occurred in the 1800's and early 1900's, that's an improvement. Please don't consider for one moment that the Hawaiian culture is on the wane. It is strong and growing.

Aloha.

(I'm a local haole girl btw)

[defendandprotect]

94. Interesting . . .

Thank you for the reply/info --

May I ask, are you a "mainlander" or a descendant of former "foreigners"?

Was surprised to see Vietnamese are joining you there -- I had no idea of that.

"Hawaii is the state with the largest Asian minority population within the United States. These came from Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, Philippines, Laos, etc. "

I haven't forgotten about the info on homosexuals as highly desirable adoptive parents

in Hawaii... and I'll continue to try to find info.

However, this article makes clear that there were few or no distinctions between male/female

or same gender relationships ---

Civil behavior: Legalization of same-sex partnerships follows logically from old Hawaii's tradition of tolerance
By Milton Diamond
POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Mar 01, 2009
http://www.starbulletin.com/editorials/20090301_Civil_behavior.html

and that many engaged in multiple relationships and many in mixed relationsips.

Obviously, old Hawaiians had no problems with homsexuality.

[mahina]

96. My grandparents came here in the 40's.

All 4 of them lived and died here. We don't consider ourselves foreigners, all born and raised here, are culturally closer to Asian or Hawaiian families than mainland families, married into Hawaiian families on all sides.

Agreed, old Hawaiians had no problems at all w homosexuality. Your first point was a surprise though.

[No Elephants]

65. My comment, to which you were responding, was not limited to methods of

predation. And your original response was deep pockets to compensate victims after the predation and infrastructure, neither of which seems to have to do with actual methods of perpetrating sexual abuse on congregants. So, I am not following the train of your thought from one post to another.

In any case, it doesn't much matter at this pont..

if you see only those two differences between the Catholic Church and all other religions when it omes to pedophilia, you see only those two differences.

[defendandprotect]

43. Other churches have married priesthood . . . big difference ---

[EFerrari]

53. Do you think that marriage prevents pedophilia?

[No Elephants]

61. It may or may not be that having full access to "normal" sex helps

prevent pedophilia (for purposes of this post, it does not matter how "normal" is defined, as long as it does not include pedophia). I don't think we know enough about that to say one way or the other.

I know that the conventional wisdom currently is that pedophilia and rape have nothing to do with sex, but with power. However, I lived long enough and read enough to know that today's conventional scientifie wisdom is the next generation's myth. However,that is only one way to look at it.

Another is to consider whether a celibate priesthood may attract more pedophiles n the first instance. For instance, if I were religious and aware of my pedophiliac urges, I might join the priesthood in the hopes that God would save me from my own sinful urges through a life of disciple and devotion. Perhaps giving up sex with adults is easy for me, because I am not interested, or I am able to control that urge a lot easier than I can control my attraction to minors. Or perhaps something about me just makes me identify with celibrate priests and admire them, to the point that I aspire to be one, no matter what.

People and institutions are complex. Sometimes we have no choice but to narrow things down to "either it's this or it's that." But, other times, it can be more productive to come at things from many angles, and with an open mind.

[EFerrari]

80. Interesting points. I've a very hard time imagining pedophilia

or that kind of attraction so, my thinking on it isn't very good I'm afraid. I also don't know how men enter the priesthood any more. Do most of them go in from college or seminary and at what age? A young person, say in their early 20s, may not have a sexuality that is all that stable yet. It's a complicated issue, I agree.

[No Elephants]

81. I am not familiar with having pedophiliac type desires either, thank heaven. But I

don't think you have to have them in order to look at something from more than one perspective or we'd all be in big trouble.

As far as seminary, dunno. I have some guesses, but a google would probably be a lot more reliable.

[EFerrari]

82. It's funny because I can usually step into other shoes very easily,

it's like an extra channel or something and it doesn't matter how personally abhorrent I find that position. But, coming up empty on this one. Weird.

[No Elephants]

83. I don't think even trying to step into those shoes is a good thing, or a necessary one. But, I

cannot step into them either, or any child abuser. I cannot imagine some of the things parents and caregivers do. It's too horrible even to try to contemplate and I don't want to.

[defendandprotect]

67. I think that "celibacy" attracts those who want to repress their own

sexuality or who believe the church teachings that it is desirable to repress sexuality...

After all, these Catholic men often grow up in a church which perverts normal human

sexuality. Especially creating distrust and fear of unions with females -- sexually and

emotionally.

Church teaching on sexuality can cripple and distort normal human sexuality -- some of

these priest abusers seem to very obviously have arrested development. Often priest

candidates would be entering seminaries at very early ages having experienced very little

of life or their sexuality. Many seem emotionally/sexually immature -- their development

stopped at young ages.

Therefore, it isn't "marriage" which prevents pedophilia -- of course not.

From what I've read of pedophilia, much of it is produced by the abuser having been abused

themselves and they go on to abuse others -- but even when there is no abuse, pedophilia

seems to appear.

Keep in mind that it is HETEROSEXUALS who are 100% more likely than homosexuals to sexually

abuse children. Yet, the church seems often to be trying to scapegoat homosexuals in these child

abuse scandals. The abusers are HETEROSEXUALS in the main.

[caseymoz]

54. Catholic Church's Abuse Record is Not Because of Its Wealth, Age or Assets

First, it's run by celibate men-- that is men who are either celibate, pretending to be celibate, or trying to be celibate. That's a very unusual and particular trait that's pretty isolating from the rest of functional society.

Now, most of the guys choose to be priests in early- to mid-adolescence. At that time of surging hormones, these are guys who think they can be celibate. Why?

Maybe a lot of them get in too early and don't yet realize just how much sway their sex drives will have later on. Now also, maybe some of them don't feel any attraction toward women, and so think they could handle celibacy. Only later in adolescence do they realize that their sex drives are much more powerful than they thought-- and what fooled them about it was that they weren't oriented toward women to begin with.

Meanwhile, they are in a position of great authority. People confess their sins to them. He gives them absolution. The priest is the parishioners access to communion, and there and during other such sacraments: he is supposed to become Christ. People gather to him to participate in Mass and listen to his homilies.

Now, if you're mentally a little off to begin with, and sexually confused and perhaps feel deep guilt about your sexuality, why wouldn't that drive you insane?

Not nearly all are like this, but those higher in the Church Hierarchy have seen it all the time, and historically, always have. If you read the darker part of the history of the church, you find that sex scandals happened all the time, with pedophilia being rampant. Now what does the Church Hierarchy demand from the sinful priest? That he confess his sins to his confessor, who is then obligated to pass Absolution if 1)the person is really sorry, 2) they swear that they will try to not sin again (repentance), and 3)if they perform their assigned act of penance.

Presumably, the priest-rapist would usually do all three of those things. The Church is concerned about sin, and legality is someone else's problem. But guess what? Oops! He buggers another child. If he's confessing and getting absolution, the Church hierarchy will love the sinner and hate the sin. They love the sinner so much that they protect him if he's part of their celibacy club, which also happens to cover their asses.

Now, the Church has protected these guys all through its history, not because it approves of child rape, but because from top to bottom those celibate man are pretty jaded to it having seen it so much as a problem of other celibate men. Not to mention: church doctrine doesn't consider rape a worse sin than adultery or masturbation. They are all mortal sins and are equally wrong. They also don't consider abnormal psychology, so as long as the rapist priest confesses, renounces his sin and does penance he'll still be a priest. Beyond that, they act to protect each other and their prestige and power.

So, if child molestations, rape and sex scandal had been going on for so long, why is it just recently coming out? The answer, modern journalism.

In the 70s, I'm not certain anybody caught the huge change in society that the post-Nixon press brought about. We had an excellent press from 1975-1980, and its reporting totally changed our social structure and legal system. Suddenly, sordid, things that were happening commonly but were never talked about were being reported: spousal abuse, child beating, sexual harassment, drunk driving all became big stories and social problems which were examined and corrected. Along with that, cases of rape and child abuse that had always been ignored were suddenly brought out, and it raised everyone's awareness about it. You wonder why conservatism might have

So, now denominations are all being exposed for having rapist and molesters. The Catholic church looks much worse than most for reasons I've already outlined. Our society now takes much more care with who we trust our children to, and accepts that stories of sexual attacks might just be true. Plus people who thought they were isolated and wouldn't be believed are finding out that others have the same stories.

The Church has its troubles now because of that cabal of celibate men who run it. Their self-justifying power must be breeched or the Church's moral teachings and behaviors will remain very skewed.

[NashVegas]

59. As Above - You Think Married People Don't Sexually Abuse Children?

This is coming out now for a few reasons, journalism is one of them.

1. The sexual revolution of the 1950s/1960s: the pill led to sex being openly, widely discussed for the first time in US history and massive numbers of young people openly engaging in sex with no pretense of being chaste until marriage. Sexual abuse was the darker side of the coin (not because their was *more* during that time, but because people who'd experienced it were still very shamed) that the conversation hadn't gotten around to yet.

2. Boomers went on to address sexual abuse first in the publishing and entertainment industries. The movie version of Ode to Billy Joe came right out and showed us what made Billy Joe McAllister jump off the Tallahatchie Bridge (in case you missed it, he was raped by the local Sheriff). Then there was Sybil. Finally, in 1984, ABC made Something About Amelia and banged the shit out of it, promotionally-speaking.

3. In the media market I lived, clergy abuse cases started being reported on in the early 1980s, but it was very, very rare. In the late 1980s, there were a few more. At that time however, there was no *actual discussion,* just information on the arrests and maybe footage of a perp-walk.

4. Rolling Stone Magazine published a very important article in 1993, or around there, about SNAP - the organization set up by victims of clergy members, mainly in Massachusetts (I *think*). That article opened the floodgates for a lot of older victims who'd remained silent up to that point and is probably the most significant single event, IMO.

5. The internet. People could discuss their abuse in forums that were set up exactly for that purpose, as well as "track" abusing clergy members via databases.

[caseymoz]

76. In no way did I say married people don't abuse children.

The Catholic Church, though, is something of a magnet for pedophiles due to the way its hierarchy is is composed and structured, which also makes it more likely to protect them. All denominations, though, have had a certain problem with pedophilia, since the moral authority of the cloth is too attractive to people who want power, and it's a very good cover for pedophilia as well.

What you cite is true. Just to say, however, social changes have causes of causes, and if you really want to trace it back, you could start the causation at most any point.

I will say this, however, I remember where I first heard of domestic violence as being a previously unacknowledged social problem: It was on a news show called "Weekend" with Linda Ellerbee, and the slant of the story was that they had discovered it. They called it "wife beating" and they interviewed wives who had gone through terrible beatings and police officers who responded to the call. They had no experts who recommended solutions, they just reported the problem, and I came away thinking something had to be done. After that, as I remember, the issue became reported more and more.

Now, sexual harassment I remember first being reported on Tom Snyder's "Tomorrow" show. He interviewed a woman who was suing her employer for sexual harassment. The show treated it as though it were something totally unknown. I remember also that the woman seems to have coined the term, "to hit on." She said "I don't have a term for it, but for lack of a better term, I'll say he 'hit on me.'"

Drunk driving was another change. It used to be that when a drunk driver caused an accident that killed four people that being drunk was the excuse, not part of the crime. Again, this began to change in the early to late '70s/

The Boomers were pretty much primed by journalist to accept stories like "Sybil" as something likely, but they were also the first generation open to considering the concept of sexual abuse by authority figures. Rape and especially child abuse might have been brought up in the press earlier, but when Sybil came out, the very concept of long-term child abuse was still very shocking.

I'd agree with your time line for the reporting of clergy abuse cases. It took a while for prosecutors and journalist to turn their attention toward the clergy, and for victims to become receptive enough to the concept of abuse to begin reporting about it.

[NashVegas]

85. FYI

When it comes to spousal abuse, again, the entertainment world was there to raise the issue before mainstream journalism. Nothing but respect for Linda Ellerbee, but domestic violence was portrayed for years; two quick examples are The Godfather, and one of the TV movies of the week featured Tyne Daly as a battered wife. If anything, it's probably because Ellerbee was a Boomer that she championed the topic.

1970s network TV movies were an amazing stew where social issues were put in peoples' living rooms. One fantastic example, if you can find it, is Maybe I'll Come Home in the Spring - 1971. Sally Field plays a girl who returns to the home she ran away from and tries to deal with her drunk parents and meth-head sister. Later, Elizabeth Montgomery got us talking publicly about rape as a result of one of her TV movies.

Sybil was a TV movie, but that was 1976; the book came out in 1973, and child sexual abuse - any sexual abuse - just wasn't spoken of. If someone was arrested, the charge was almost always the uncanny euphemism, "contributing to the delinquency of a minor."

It's kind of popular to criticize Boomers for a variety of things, but that generation refused to remain silent about many issues their parents and their parents silently accepted and for that we should always be thankful.

[defendandprotect]

97. Actually, IMO, patriarchal religion had been weakened . . .

And, of course, the youth movement/revolution of the 1960's was part of that overall weakening of patriarchy and of challenging all authority. The "pill" naturally also hastened the long journey to end RCC control of sexuality.

Also, Italians say that this sexual abuse has always gone on in the church.
And, we know in the notorious church schools for Native Americans run by RCC/Mormons.
Further, a nation devoted to "equality for all" and ideals of democracy will in the end be harmful to organized patriarchal religion and patriarchy.

How much did John Lennon's comment about being "bigger than Christ" hurt/"Imagine"?
Or the NY Times Magazine's cover of Jesus with the banner, "Is Jesus Dead?"
At least a decade ago, the Vatican wrote off America, Canada, Great Britain -- and believed its fortunes were rising in Africa and Asia.

Also, Sigmund Freud had certainly seen the effects and heard the stories of women sexually abused. Freud understood it quite well, but he failed to have the courage
to report it honestly and instead reversed it into a child's desire for sexual involvement with the parent. Fortunately, Betty Friendan unlaced women from Freud
and threw him in the dumpster.

Also, Ted Turner's/CNN was very instrumental in hammering at the sexual abuse
by priests .... among the many events you cited.

[No Elephants]

66. A lot of good points. I just want to point out that "love the sinner, but hate the sin" is

a relatively new slogan.

Christians (no only Catholics)got criticized by, among others, homosexuals, for treatment that was not very Christian, to say the least. And, gradually, that slogan took hold. So, we love you to bits and even hold you up as a great example if you get "cured" of your orientation or if you practice total celibacy. But, if you are practicisng the "sin" of relationships with someone of your own gender, we ban you from services, shun you, condemn you, etc. Cause it's not you, but the sin.

Same thing with the emphasis on any sex outside marriage's being a sin, not only homosexuality. That's why the rubber hit the road when states started making same gender unions or marriage a possibility.

And, of course, many Catholics take the position that the vast majority of pedophile abuses by its priests was more homosexuality than pedophilia.


Most people here probably know all that and much more, but I wanted to point that out, just in case someone doesn't..

[caseymoz]

75. The origins and misuse of "Love the Sinner Hate the Sin."

In a way, "Love the Sinner Hate the Sin" is a paraphrasing of St. Augustine, which Mahatma Gandhi then coined into the phrase, "Love the sinner hate the sin," in his 1929 autobiography. Gandhi might have brought it into its recent form and usage, but something almost identical to it appears in St. Augustine's writing, Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum, which translates: "With love for mankind and hatred of sins." St. Augustine, of course, being one of the "Fathers of the Church" makes it a very old Christian concept, though not a Biblical one. (When you Google, or Yahoo, or Wiki, you always learn something.)

Of course, the phrase has been defiled with Orwellian intent, but you have to see, in the early and middle-ages, all sex or prurient thoughts were sinful, including in marriage. From what I've gathered, it was considered "uncleanliness," the "Church Founders" were extremely anti-sex (anti-women too). Sex acts, no matter what, were all to be confessed and there were specific instructions by the Church on what Penance would be assigned for what sex act or thought. Now, in practice, very little of this might have been followed, I mean how could it be? But that was the way the Church saw it, and it did give the Church a huge amount of power, as well as an intelligence system. It essentially kept people in a constant sinful state, with the Church constantly at their rescue. It created the disease and the cure, which was the main reason why the Church was so powerful for so long.

That all changed with the Protestant Reformation, when ordinary people began actually reading and interpreting the Bible. Protestantism changed the Church as well, but for the longest time, there was absolutely no official comment from the Catholic Church about sexual matters. No, up until Vatican II, they pretty much played it by ear.

As Protestants and later Catholics saw it, marriage was God's blessing on sex. However, other sex remained sinful, homosexuality being one of the worst, mainly because the Bible was translated into some pretty vile language about it.

[No Elephants]

79. Thanks. My prior post was not referring to theology, but as to using that exact phrasing as

a slogan, repeatedly. And no only in sermons, but to the media. As far as the origin, at its best, it can be viewed as a description of how Christ behaved. However, I was referring to the much more recent, and I believe, cynical sloganeering.

But, I appreciate your post. Again, lots of good info.

[greenkal]

13. Perhaps?

Perhaps there was a cover-up? Why are you claiming there wasn't? Why lie about it? What is your agenda?

[crim son]

15. The Church can claim that what to us is a coverup, to them

was "forgiveness". I can understand the convoluted logic, but I don't buy it. A Catholic relative of mine said that the Church's sex scandals were the fault of the laity, for "not praying enough." How can you argue against this sort of mindset, except through legal action?

[defendandprotect]

47. Not when they were paying $$$ to victims and their families for silence --- !!!

It's always been church policy to stifle scandal of any kind.

I think the most they claim is ignorance about pedophilia .....

but that's not entirely believable either because they put these men

back in areas where they would have contact with children --- and without

warning the new parishes -- and without ever acknowledging their past histories!

[No Elephants]

63. Cardinal Law (Massachusetts) called down the wrath of God on the Boston Globe

when it printed allegations about our local pedophile priests. So, maybe he thought it was the Globe's fault? Sure gave a lot of Cathoics here the impression the Globe was lying. At least he did not blame if on the victims or the laity in general, though. Thank heaven for small favors, as they say.

Many thought Law was on track to be the first American Pope. But then, the lawsuits kept coming. So, he got a nice spot in the Vatican instead. Apparently, the wage of attempted cover up and transfering pedophile priests to is promotion within the ranks.

[defendandprotect]

98. The church was obviously buying silence from parents and child victims . . .

and then, despite promises, behind their backs they were reassigning

these monsters to other parishes where other children would then be abused.

It wasn't until the insurance companies stood up and said they would no

longer insure the church and its pedophiles that things began to hum.

The church was going to be liable for the expense of all these cases --

and as I recall the insurance companies were getting noisy about all of

this and the public was getting informed.

[No Elephants]

62. Before you go off half cocked and make crap accusations like lying and having an agenda relating to

covering up pedophilia, pause long enough to read an entire sentence and also to put a post in the context of the post to which it is responding. Also, get a clue about writing style. (Some of us here have one.)

Otherwise, you just might put yourself in danger of seeming like a jerk, and not a particularly bright one. That would be a shame so soon in your posting career at DU.

BTW, very unusual post for one new here. Welcome to DU?

[smoogatz]

17. Have other religions made it an institutional practice to shelter

known pedophiles? How about the intimidation of victims of clergy sex a abuse--is that commonplace in other religions?

[bottomtheweaver]

19. The answer is pretty obviously yes.

Otherwise they'd be getting as much publicity. Ted Haggard is one obvious example. One of his underage victims has already come forward with tales of being bought off by church officers.

So as I said, don't look now -- once the litigators finish with the big game, they'll move on to the small fry, and the next clerical bonanza could be yours. That's usually how it works.

[smoogatz]

22. The next one won't be mine. Or the next, or the next.

I've always thought organized religion was a racket, designed to pray on people's ignorance, suffering and fear. And their children, it turns out.

[bottomtheweaver]

27. You could be right about religion,

but many find it useful at one point or another in their lives. Some prefer to outsource their praying however. :)

[No Elephants]

64. Tales of being bought off by church officers can usually be backed up. Before church officers

pay off someone, they require them to sign agreements with mega-confidentiality clauses, for obvious reasons. These agreements would also be signed by church officials.

So, either people keep the confidentiality and don't speak at all, or they break the agreement. If they are breaking the agrement, they may just as well produce a copy of the agreement signed by church officials to prove their claims.

A claim of having been bought off that one cannot substantiate with documentstion would be very unusual, to say the least. Anything's possible, but some things are just more improbable than others.

[defendandprotect]

48. I think for a long, long time they were all able to rely on the fact that

kids wouldn't report this stuff --- and if they did, no one would believe them!!!

And sadly that was often true -- !!!

Kids generally had no words for describing what was happening to them and often

the priests seemed to be telling them that this is what "god" wanted --- and after

all in the Catholic church these priests were nearly "god"!! I think some of them

were brutal and threatening -- like harm to the parents, etc.

The kids would also, I'm sure, feel ashamed -- after all until recently the subject

of normal human sexuality was rarely discussed in families --- often denied.


Just wanted to mention, however, that we also have the examples of the Church Schools

which were run to destroy the heritage of Native Americans. Their children were taken

from them by force and put in these schools. They were not permitted to speak their

own language -- forced hair cutting -- and every kind of abuse ---

sexual abuse, torture, hangings, beatings, murder -- !!!! And it was Catholic and

Mormon church schools, both -- and the Mormon run schools were evidently the more

notorious/brutal!


PS: Wasn't it Porter who raped a child who was recovering from back surgery and in a full

body cast!!!??? I believe he went on to have a family and tried to seduce the baby

sitter for the children! There was some concern that he had abused his own children.

[nichomachus]

20. Do you have some statistics to back that up

It's an interesting claim, but I'd like to see the data, because I simply don't believe it.

How many claims of pedophilia have there been against rabbis?

[bottomtheweaver]

21. There have been several such claims that I know of.

Also other rabbinical employees such as teachers. I'll look for some data for you and post what I find.

[bottomtheweaver]

23. "Clergy Abuse: Rabbis, Cantors & Other Trusted Officials"

This site contains a detailed list of 483 current sexual abuse cases against rabbis and other official, including lawsuits and convictions, listed under "Cases of Clergy Abuse and Other Trusted Officials":

http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/clergyabuse.html#Statement

[bottomtheweaver]

25. "Clergy Sexual Abuse" (1996)

"It is commonly believed that clergy sexual abuse is an exclusively Catholic problem that does not happen in other churches. In a 1983 doctoral thesis by Richard Blackmon, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner and 38% admitted to other sexualized contact with a parishioner.1 In separate denominational surveys, 48% of United Church of Christ female ministers and 77% of United Methodist female ministers reported having been sexually harassed in church.2 Although the actual extent of the problem is unknown, the significance of clergy sexual abuse is acknowledged by the denominational leaders of all Christian churches.3

"The characteristics of clergy who violate sexual boundaries are as diverse as those of persons who sexually abuse or harass and are employed in other occupations. Characteristics more closely associated with the ministerial role are ascribed community trust, charisma, and patriarchal privilege and power. The clergy person is often accepted as God's representative whose authority is not to be questioned. Trustworthiness ascribed to the ministerial role is readily transferred as a character trait to those who fulfill that role. Charisma is a personal attribute that pulls the admiration of the church community as well as those who might serve the minister as sexual partner. The minister who enters into exploitive sexual relationships may do so because of situational circumstances or because he or she (most frequently "he") chronically disregards the welfare of others in order to meet their own needs.4 Frequently, more than one person is targeted for sexualized contact.

"Most recipients of clergy sexual abuse are thought to be women, although children and men are also affected. They may be counselees, church volunteers or employees, seminarians or church interns. The violations range from verbal harassment to violent rape. Frequently, the individual responds to manipulative sexual advances of the clergy person. Individuals who have been retaliated against for reporting sexual abuse by clergy include people who did not experience sexualized contact but who affiliated themselves with survivors. Retaliation has included death threats.5 The common characteristic between abuse recipients is that they have fewer resources and therefore less power than the clergy person. Adult recipients of clergy sexual abuse are thought to experience the betrayal by God more strongly and to experience more severe adaptive consequences than others who experience sexual abuse during adulthood.6"

more: http://www.advocateweb.org/cease/csa.htm

[nichomachus]

28. Thanks -- that's interesting -- however

I think the Catholic situation is unique because it was so systemic. Because of the hierarchical nature of the Catholic clergy, where the bishops assign priests to parishes, and basically are responsible for them, the church orchestrated this giant coverup and enabling of the behavior.

In many cases, they protected the pedophiles even after they became -- especially after they became -- aware of the problem.

In one case, a priest quite likely murdered a 10-year-old pedophile victim and the bishop used his leverage with the corrupt DA to squash the investigation, and no charges were every brought. The case is nearly 40 years old now and the police never had any other suspect but the priest.

I happened to know the priest, bishop and DA in question. Not a savory lot.

[bottomtheweaver]

29. Yes, I agree.

The Catholic situation IS unique because it's a huge, well-organized, well-funded denomination, so there are more cases, and once litigators find a way to prosecute them, more millions available for settlements.

It's also a terrible betrayal and although I have deep reservations about the justice of putting parish property on the auction block to pay what seem to me to be overly healthy legal fees, it's better to get it out in the open than allow the abuses to continue or to give the victims no redress. No argument there.

What I'm pointing out is that the problem of clergy abuse is in no way confined to Catholic clergy, and once the legal eagles have finished off that cash cow, they'll move on to slimmer pickings.

[Tansy_Gold]

36. Another difference. . . .

The Catholic Church has long had an infrastructure of schools which put children and young adults into contact with clergy for far more hours a day than most protestant christian or non-christian children are. Even those who belong a church youth group may only spend a total of six or eight hours a day, and usually in group settings, with their "pastor." And I put that in quotes only to allow it to include priests, ministers, rabbis, and all other denominational clergy who assume that role of teacher/leader/etc.

The catholic school institution also allows much deeper religious and cultural indoctrination than what most other children receive through a couple hours of church and/or sunday school. Through such internal institutions as First Holy Communion, catholic children are pulled into the life of the church more intimately than protestant or non-christian children.

Also, because the catholic priesthood is exclusively male and celibate, it is not integrated into the larger community the way the married clergy of other faiths is. The exclusively male priesthood, with its exclusively male hierarchy, serves as both a magnet and an amplifier (in essence, both cause and effect) for behavior that would not find such a nurturing environment elsewhere.

In addition, the catholic culture of demeaning women effectively elevates men to a level of power and authority that has little counter within that culture. Although many other religions may embrace a patriarchal standard, their clergy is more integrated into the wider culture.

As disgusting a little creature as he may be, Ted Haggard was less a product of his religious institution than he was an aberrant person within that institution. Perhaps he sought escape in his church or a cover for his activities or whatever, but the church itself did not promote or condone or cover up for his activities, nor did it provide an environment that systemically promoted his behavior.

The only thing I can think of that approaches the institutionalized perversion of the catholic church is the madrassas of the islamic extremists.


Tansy Gold

[PassingFair]

39. Amen!

Great post, Tansy.

Why any woman would CHOOSE to be part
of a culture that PRECLUDES them (AND their daughters) from
being a part of the hierarchy, I'll
never know.

[defendandprotect]

50. Bravo . . . !!!

As a recovering Catholic, I never thought about this .....

The catholic school institution also allows much deeper religious and cultural indoctrination than what most other children receive through a couple hours of church and/or sunday school. Through such internal institutions as First Holy Communion, catholic children are pulled into the life of the church more intimately than protestant or non-christian children

If you went to Catholic grammar school, in fact, it was indoctrination all day long.

There was also a long tradition of "confession" which was quite different from what went on

in the Hebrew or Protestant churches. There's a lot to be said for that "sacrament" in

being totally invasive of the child's mind and privacy. I think most people are somewhat

familiar with that spooky private, dark booth -- with a male hearing one's most private

and personal "wrongdoings."

Vatican II did away with "confession" -- but the right-wing cult has warred on Vatican II

and I think brought it back/?

[mahina]

74. Word.

"In addition, the catholic culture of demeaning women effectively elevates men to a level of power and authority that has little counter within that culture. Although many other religions may embrace a patriarchal standard, their clergy is more integrated into the wider culture."

That.

I've never seen a culture that completely squashed any questioning of authority like the Catholic church suppresses questioning priests. Talk about a patriarchy.

[defendandprotect]

49. I think there will be deeper problems .... and money problems . . .

for one, I don't think members like the idea that their contributions have

probably gone to pay for "silence" from parents and victims.

Or for these huge legal fees -- often to protect the priests/Archbishops who

fostered the ability of these pedophiles to move on from one batch of victims

to another. They certainly didn't warn the new parish. They certainly never

admitted to the parents or victim that the pedophile priest had previously

been involved in sexual abuse with other children.

A lot of the money also went for "treatment" for the priests --- while the church

often denied assistance for the victims!!!

Keep in mind that the church absolutely was not reporting these crimes to legal

authorities. In many cases, they had technical or cultural license to not do so.

But morally, they should have been reporting this abuse! Parents who reported it

to authorities sometimes also found problems there --- in New Orleans -- can't think

of the name of the singer -- but his father was DA/? there and helped keep a cap on

one very sensational sexual abuse case there. In fact, I think he was ordering the

records destroyed/?


MEANWHILE, one reason that a lot of this finally broke is because the insurance

companies would no longer insure the church against these kinds of wrongdoings.

And, presumably, they will never again obtain insurance of this kind.

PLUS, I don't think that in future they will ever again find the kind of mixed feelings

by police authorities to their NOT reporting any future incidents.

I don't know where the states are with changing these laws . . . but reporting should be

mandatory!!!

[No Elephants]

68. Your claim in Post # 5 was that pedophilia was equally distributed among all religions. Maybe you

want to modify that, or elaborate on what you meant, especially as to "equally?'

And did you really mean equally among ALL religions, or was your comment principally about Abrahamic religions?

Of course, agnostics, atheists, and other non-observant folk are not free from pedophilia either. So, I guess at some point, it gets to be simply that some humans are pedophiles.

[bottomtheweaver]

72. That isn't exactly what I said, but thanks for asking.

I came across the information about clergy sexual abuse a couple of years ago in a university research library when I was thinking of writing an article about the subject. The sources were articles in several social science print journals, and don't seem to be in Google, and I'm sorry but I'm not in a library at the moment.

[No Elephants]

77. "(S)exual abuse is equally distributed among clergy of all religions..." is the exact quote. But

clergy is what I had in mind, when I asked my questions.

BTW, I not ask for a source, just for elaboration. But, I can understand your wanting to check before elaborating.

[bottomtheweaver]

84. You see the difference, don't you?

And I'd be happy to elaborate on what I found because it was actually pretty surprising. I made a few notes so I'll see if I can dig them up and post a summary. I kind of wish I'd developed it further but the problem is that there's no way to contextualize, historicize, or even objectively discuss this particular issue right now without appearing to defend it, which is not something I'm in a position to do. Anyway, more later.

[hedgehog]

30. Since when is the argument "they did it, too!" meaningful?

I find that reasoning very silly, especially when it comes from the same crowd that insists the Catholic Church is the only repository of the True Faith. Throwing mud at other people doesn't clean up the mess in our house!

[bottomtheweaver]

32. I wasn't arguing. n/t

[Joe Bacon]

18. Ol Phony Mahoney in Los Angeles did the Pedophile Shuffle here!

That's why ol Cardinal Phony Mahoney has put a lot of church property on the auction block. So sad to see elderly nuns booted from the convent where they had lived all their lives. Meanwhile is Phony Mahoney going to be held accountable for all the pedophile swapping he did. Well, since ol Phony is a solid member of the Republic Party, we know he won't. Just like every other member of the Republic Party, Phony Mahoney is above the law.

[defendandprotect]

51. I just watched a sad but enlightening documentary on one of those cases . . .

and it did show Law and Mahoney testimony! Unbelievable!!

The church is loaded with real estate -- much of it still evaluated at the reduced

prices reflected at the time it was donated.

Also a huge stock portfolio.

I think they are pretty even with the British Monarchy in wealth!


I think the movie was called "Lead Us Not Into Temptation"???

Must be almost two years old?

[No Elephants]

69. Please define "held accountable." Do you mean like Cardinal Law was held accountable by getting

a high position in the Vatican? Or Cardinal Ratzinger was held accountable by getting elected Pope? Or Pope John was held accountable by remaining Pope until he passed on of natural causes?


Or do you mean held accountable on Judgment Day?

[defendandprotect]

42. I don't think they've been able to get insurance coversage any longer . . .

probably last 10 years?

I wonder what Catholic members know about this --- do they speak frankly from

the altar keeping them posted on the money and the victims?

Supposedly, it's estimated that only about 20% of the victims come forward--!!!

[No Elephants]

70. A very elderly Catholic woman in Massachusetts told me that most of the victims were

older than 11, so they knew what they were doing. Because she would have known at that age, given how her mother raised her. The implication, of course, being that this was consensual sex.

I tend to believe that her comments had nothing to do with the way that her mother raised her. Athough I am now 66, I am at least 30 years younger than she is and NO ONE ever told me about pedophilia (or sex) when I was a kid until I got to high school. So, I cannot imagine that someone who was raised 25 or 30 years earlier than I was got a lot of info from her parents.

That is by way of saying that people can rationalize ANYthing if they are in idolatry. And also to say that I am assuming that she got this from her church, or at least her fellow congregants. (I also saw a cartoon reprinted from a Walpole, MA church publication that mocked a victim entering a psychiatrist's office, crying like a baby and dressed like one.)

As far as what they knew, people here of any religion would have to have been in a coma not to know about the allegations. Newspapers, radio, talk radio, TV. You name it. However, we had a criminal case and a couple of really large civil cases. One was brought by over 200 victims. So, it was big news.

[defendandprotect]

95. Actually, I thought that people of MA woke up pretty quickly and

re RCC and don't seem to want to be "fooled again" -- !!!

I thought their picketing, etc against Law was very strong -- and with any other

institution it probably would have brought the house down.

I hope that the woman you were speaking with was a rare exception to this overall

awakening re the Catholic Church.

And, yes, I have heard reports of comments like this from the church itself -- some of

it simply naive, IMO -- but some of it just plain fear and vileness on the part of church

officials and those members who will support the church no matter what.


I'm also quite sure that the many psychiatrists that the church sent these priests to

probably made quite clear that pedophilia is abuse -- and that a child of 11 cannot

give consent. Also, naturally we all also recognize the conflict of a priest who stands

in for "god" in many parishes and the pressure of a priest telling a young child that this

abuse is what "god" wants!!! The church certainly works to create obedient members!


HOWEVER, many of these children were threatened . . . first, that no one would believe them

-- not even their parents. And, others were threatened that their parents would be harmed.

Many were brutally raped! I remember PORTER raped a young child in a hospital who had just

had back surgery and was in a full body cast!!!

I don't think that anything your mother tells you can prepare a young child for anything liike

this! On the other hand, I do think that the schools have been somewhat effective in teaching

all the children about "good touching/bad touching" --

Many of these molesters come at children when they are alone -- and many of them were trusted

by parish families.

Totally agree with your comments here . . .

That is by way of saying that people can rationalize ANYthing if they are in idolatry. And also to say that I am assuming that she got this from her church, or at least her fellow congregants. (I also saw a cartoon reprinted from a Walpole, MA church publication that mocked a victim entering a psychiatrist's office, crying like a baby and dressed like one.)

As far as what they knew, people here of any religion would have to have been in a coma not to know about the allegations. Newspapers, radio, talk radio, TV. You name it. However, we had a criminal case and a couple of really large civil cases. One was brought by over 200 victims. So, it was big news.

From what I've read, the feeling is that only about 20% of the victims do come forward.

Imagine how hard this was for a child to do!!!

[Skittles]

45. pass the plate to raise the funds for the payoffs, folks

yes INDEED

[No Elephants]

71. The really big gifts don't come via the plate, even though that is a factor. There is also

real estate that the Catholic Church acquired over the years, both by purchases and by gifts. And, in Massachusetts, the Church is trying hard to cut costs. It is trying to re-structure by closing Churches with smaller congregations. However, some of that is about lack of priests and diminishing attendance having nothing to do with the abuse publicity.

I say trying because the congregants are fighting hard to keep their respective churches.

Then again, with its large Italian, Hispanic/Portuguese and Irish populations, Massachusetts has long been strongly Catholic.