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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 09:20 AM
Original message
Indonesia cleric detained for marrying 12-year-old
Source: Associated Press

JAKARTA, Indonesia (AP) — A Muslim cleric whose marriage to a 12-year-old girl triggered controversy in Indonesia has been detained along with the girl's father on suspicion of violating the child protection law, police said Wednesday.

Cleric Pujiono Cahyo Widianto, 43, wed the girl before thousands of people in Central Java province last August, arguing that he had committed no crime because he intended to wait until she reached puberty before consummating their relationship.

Police Detective Roy Siahaan said the cleric, who runs an Islamic boarding school and several businesses, was officially named a criminal suspect Tuesday following several days of questioning. He has not been charged but is in police detention.

On Wednesday, the girl's father, 36-year-old Suroso, also was detained and named a suspect for giving away the bride. Both Suroso, who like many Indonesians uses only one name, and Widianto could face up to 15 years in prison if found guilty of violating the country's child protection law, which forbids marriage to anyone under 18 years old.



Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gA4GYgOWyMQDudRzfrHZ0M4tpzBgD970D5SG0
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. I hope they both spend a long time in prison- disgusting
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. Jerry Lee Lewis is a Muslim?
Who knew? :shrug:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. As I recall, his wife was 14 when they married

and 14 was legal age in the state where they married.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Right, and they were cousins too.
Aparently there was a whole lotta shakin' going on.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-19-09 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. Myra was 13, Jerry and if 14 was legal, then the whole state was as messed up as this group. Back
Edited on Thu Mar-19-09 07:08 AM by No Elephants
then, many 13 year old had not even started menstruating. (Earlier now due to hormones in the food supply.)

Myra and Jerry were married for thirteen years, making Myra 26. Jerry also married his second wife, also a teen at the time he married her, before his divorce from Myra became final. Myra had their child a month after the divorce became final.

A real prince.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-19-09 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
26. Goodness, gracious.
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dynasaw Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. Shades of What Goes On Here in the Good Ole USA Too
among the fundie cults. What is it about fundie males and children?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. sorry, it's not equivalent.
Glad to see that these cretins were arrested though
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. It's all about dominance. A twelve year old is easy to control.
By the time she's in her twenties, you have a willing slave (if all goes well). Plus, she's popped out a few kids that maybe she cares about, and would be reluctant to abandon.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. A 12-year-old is hellish to control.
Shoulda married her at six.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. For some reason your post made me think of "Black Adder"
Which somehow made child brides humorous rather than appalling.

Not a funny subject, I know....

:spank:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. I was really just remembering 7th grade.
And pitying my teachers.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. ... not when you can legally and under gOD beat the shit of her and rape her...
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. Even in THIS Century (the 21st NOT the 20th) a 12 year could enter into a Marriage in the USA
Edited on Wed Mar-18-09 10:54 PM by happyslug
Pennsylvania Supreme Court had to address that problem around 2000. A teacher had sex with his 12 year old student. His defense was they had entered into a Valid Common Law Marriage. The court had to rule that since Pennsylvania still recognized Common law Marriages (Abolished as of January 1st 2005, but that was AFTER this case) and the State Legislature had NEVER addressed the issued of Common Law Marriages (The General Assembly had left it to the Courts since the founding of Pennsylvania as a Colony in 1689), what was the law as to the age of Consent to enter into a Common Law Marriage? Under the Common Law of England the age of Consent for sex or entered into a Marriage had been 12 (Including Common Law Marriages). Since Pennsylvania had ONLY made it a requirement to get your Parent's permission to entered into Ceremonial Marriage but not a Common Law Marriage, parental permission was NOT needed either. Thus the teacher got off, for he had a valid Common Law Marriage with the 12 year old and as such they sex did NOT violate any statute for sex among married people was expressly permitted by law.

Please note in the case above the 12 year student agreed that she had entered into a common law Marriage with the Teacher AND all sex involved was voluntary. Thus rape could NOT be charged unless it violated Statutory Rape Laws, and those laws expressly excluded sex among married couples. The General Assembly when they passed the Statutory Rape Law retained the marriage exclusion originally put into those laws when 21 was the age one could get married without parent's permission, but you could get ceremonial married at younger ages with parent's permission.

Side Note: Ceremonial Marriage is when you get a married license. Under Common Law Marriages no such license was needed, all that was needed was for both parties agreed to be married. Since sex was NOT needed to have a valid Common Law Marriage in Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania only recognized "in praesenti" Common Law Marriages, which was an exchange of vows of marriages, Pennsylvania never recognized "In futuro" Common Law Marriages which was a promise to marry in the future followed by sexual intercourse, both were recognized by England but abolished in the early 1700s for England only not for its colonies including Pennsylvania at that time).

Yes, At least one state (Pennsylvania) until 2005 still permitted 12 years olds to marry.

Colorado seems to still follow this Rule as to Common Law Marriages:
http://www.azfamilylawblog.com/2006/06/articles/family-law-updates/colorado-allows-12yearold-girls-to-enter-into-commonlaw-marriages/
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. wait, we are not going to criticize the Muslim cleric because he is not Catholic
:shrug:
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Sultana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Nope, that's how some role in DU
Haven't you heard that "teh Xtians are eviler and worser"?


:eyes:
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Poor mistreated xtians.
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Sultana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-19-09 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Hmm, search Sudanese Christians then see the truth
ASSHOLE!!!!!
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-19-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Not only Sudan it's been happening for centuries in the middle east
Edited on Thu Mar-19-09 09:14 AM by AlphaCentauri
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-19-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Except in Iraq, prior to 2003
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Kalyan Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. bringing shame ...
Mr. Widianto should be behind bars for the rest of his life. What was he thinking when he married a 12-year old girl, who is 31 years his junior?

Same treatment to Mr. Suroso as well. In fact, he should get more. What kind of a father is he, if he decides to "sell" his daughter away?

Humanity is better off with these animals safely behind bars.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. ugh... at least someone spoke out
and the girl is now safe...
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-19-09 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
28. I doubt she's safe. Even if she is physically safe, she is damaged for life, in many ways.,
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Neo Atheist Donating Member (122 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
9. Like prophet, like follower
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. here is some interesting information about the Prophet.. thus Islam.. >Link>>
http://users.skynet.be/sky50779/mohammed.htm
"snip... . A better scientific examination of the sources has made clear that all symptoms of acromegaly are present with some psychopathological paranoid traits. Acromegaly is caused by a small tumour of the hypophysis, beginning most of the time about the fortieth year and ending in the sixtieth year with an apoplexy of the hypophysis.

According to the hadith Muhammad suffered from a long-lasting disease, which he treated by means of bleeding. He walked as somebody who comes down from a hill. His skin-colour was peculiar, not white, not too tanned, somewhat rosy. His eyebrows were conspicuous. He was sweating heavily, especially when he was receiving revelations. He heard the noise of bells and voices. He had a great appetite and suffered from hunger. Notwithstanding his sexual relations with ten young women, he remained quasi-sterile: one only child after the age of forty years. During his last illness he suffered from intense headaches, losses of consciousness, back- and intestinal pains...snip"


i also want to point out that there are Numerious depictions and illustrations of the Prophet... in his later years he is depicted with a Veil.. Acromegaly can cause serious facial deformation...
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_face_hidden/
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-19-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. All the occurred after the death of his first wife, who was OLDER then he was.
His later marriages are better explained as political marriages to other members of his group (as in the case of his youngest wife, who he married at age six, has sex with at age 10, but no children, please note the sex at age ten was considered a requirement for a valid marriage under Arab customs which appears to be why it was done, he had no children by that wife. he died in 632

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad%27s_wives

Mohammad's first wife was Khadijah bint Khuwaylid who he married at age 25, she age 40. She died when he turned 50. He had no other wives while she lived. (Died c 619)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadijah_bint_Khuwaylid

At Khadijah's death he married Sawda bint Zama, who was still five year older then he was. I should point out while she became Mohammad's first wife on her marriage (Khadijah had died BEFORE she was married to Mohammad) it appears Mohammad married her more as a companion AND to help her in her old age since her first Husband and the father of her children was dead and that father had been a loyal follower of Mohammad. (died c674)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawda_bint_Zama.

He then married Aisha, daughter of his follower Abu Bakr, later the First Caliph, thus this marriage is viewed as more a traditional marriage between families as an act to bring two families closer together then anything else. This is the woman Mohammad married at age 6 and had sex with at age ten. While the record says he had intercourse with her, it does NOT say whether is was actual intercourse or an act of intercourse to meet traditional Arab law (i.e. went through the motions more then any actual sexual act). (died c678, she was the last of Mohammad's wives to die)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

Mohamed's fourth wife was Hafsa Bint Umar, daughter of another follower and another widow, through only about 20 at the time of Marriage. She was Daughter of Umar who was the Second Caliph AND whose family formed the subsequent Umayarn dynasty after the Caliphate of Ali, the Fourth Caliph and the son-in law of Mohammad. This one appears to be both Politics AND to help a widow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafsa_bint_Umar (d c666)

Mohammad's Fifth wife was Zaynab bint Khuzayma, Another young widow of a fallen comrade of Mohammad, she died eights months after her marriage. (c624 AD)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaynab_bint_Khuzayma

Wife # 6 was Umm Salama Hind bint Abi Umayya, a 40 year old Widow of a fallen soldier of the Mohammad. Another marriage to aid a widow, who had four children and no other support:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_Salama_Hind_bint_Abi_Umayya

At this point Rayhana bint Amr ibn Khunafa enters the household of Mohammad. She would have been Current Wife #5, but the records are unclear what her status was. She was Jew and no record exists of her conversion to Islam (Unlike the above, all of who were followers of Islam). She appears to have been a slave, but freed from her slavery by Mohammad. She might have been his Concubine, but some call her his wife, She died the year before he did and records are just unclear as to her status. Since Aisha, Salama, Hafsa and Sawda were still alive and not divorced from Mohammad, and no man could have more then four wives at one time, she probably was just a slave, but the exact relationship is confusing.

Mohammad's next wife was Zaynab bint Jahsh (wife # 8). She was of Arabic Aristocracy and at first Mohammad had her marry his adopted son, but that marriage lasted less then a year (c626 ad) then he married her. While various reason for this has been proposed but Mohammad was on the upswing at this point, and had already controlled most of Arabia, he would even order an attack on a Byzantine City two years later (Where his adopted city would die). She is another question mark for she would have been Marriage #5, unless Swada was divorced by Mohammad (a Possibility given the four wife rule). She died in and was the half sister of Maymuna bint al-Harith, wife # 12, who only married after Zaynab's death in 629 AD). Another half sister married Abu Bakr, who became the first Caliph after the death of Mohammad in 632 AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaynab_bint_Jahsh

Wife # 9 was Juwayriyya bint al-Harith. She had been captured in a battle over who control a part of Arabia, she was the daughter of the loser of that battle. While the official line is different, it appear Mohammad married her to try to get that tribe to support him. It apparently worked, it fact so while other enemies of her tribe freed other members of her tribe they were holding. While she was about 20 in 629, when she was captured, the politics of the situation seems to be the important factor (And again the four wife rule was ignored).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juwayriya_bint_al-Harith

Wife #10 is Ramlah bint Abi Sufyan, Daughter of the leader of Mecca who opposed Mohammad for most of his life, then when it became clear Mohammad could take Mecca he arrange so it can be done without bloodshed and as part of the deal his doughier (then about age 39) would marry Mohammad (who was 58). Another marriage more for Polities then anything else. (died 666)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramlah_bint_Abi-Sufyan

Wife #11, was Safiyya bint Huyayy, who was 17 at the time of her marriage, but again some confusions. Her tribe had been Jewish not Arabic, she seems to have embraced Islam but the marriage seems to be another attempt by Mohammad to get the various tribes of Arabia behind himself and Islam. Her tribe had been defeated and conquered, she herself was viewed as a product of conquest, but Mohammad married her instead of making her his slave, which under Arab rule meant she became a free woman on his death (Which was only two years away). She appears to remain a Muslim all her life, but had connections with her Jewish family even at her death (C670 ad)

Marriage #12 was Maymuna bint al-Harith, she was 36, he was 60 at the time of they marriage. She was the daughter of

The last "wife" of Mohammad was Maria al-Qibtiyya. She never had a house of her own, as would a true wife would have had under Islam, and she is believed NEVER to have converted to Islam. Some early sources do not even list her as a wife of Mohammad. She is reported to have been a gift from an Byzantine official in Egypt, but the best we can figure out is that meant the Patriarch of Alexandria but that particular patriarch did not become Patriarch till after Mohammad's death. Someone gave her to Mohammad and the name was probably added later (and incorrectly). The better explanation was she had been Captured by the Persians when they took Egypt and as the Persians pulled out of Egypt as Byzantine Empire attacked Persia, the Persian Governor sent her as a present to get support for Persia from Mohammad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya

For more on the Governor who sent her to Mohammad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqawqis

My point was while Aisha was age six at her marriage and that Marriages was consummated at age 10, the next youngest wife was 17, and two others in their 20s. The rest of his wives were over 40 when he married them. Does NOT sign like someone looking for teenagers to me (and given the politics involved, most if not all of his marriages had more to do with tribal politics then anything else.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
19. i bet that guy has sexually abused a bunch of other underage girls
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harry_pothead Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You talking about the Indonesian guy, Muhammed, or both?
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-18-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. the cleric that married the 12 year old girl
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-19-09 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
25. If a child cannot marry until 18, why can she be deprived of choice as to whether she ever
Edited on Thu Mar-19-09 06:55 AM by No Elephants
marries or not, at what age she marries and whom she married?

I am so sick of anti-female crap, legal or not.

And I wish people here would clean up their sexist language, too. It only perpetuates stereotypes and other unfairness.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-19-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. you have to be 18? Not in some states.
Pennsylvania actually ruled around 2001 that a 12 year woman could entered into a lawful common law marriage. Common law marriages were subsequently abolished in PA after January 1, 2005, but if formed before that date still valid. Worse, while all that is needed to enter into a common law marriage is an exact of vows, you have to go through a formal divorce proceeding to end the common law marriage (Common Law Marriages are and were viewed as VALID MARRIAGES, as valid as one obtained with a license and could only end the same way such licensed marriages were ended, i.e. death of one spouse OR a divorce).

Furthermore, Pennsylvania ruled that a 12 year old did NOT need her parent's permission to entered into a valid Common Law Marriages, for such permission was NEVER part of the Common Law and only entered into the law when Marriage licenses were introduced after the Council of Trent in the mid 1500s (Prior to the Council of Trent, almost ALL marriages in Europe would be what we call "Common Law Marriages" today, it is only with the Council of Trent that Ceremonial marriages became the rule instead of the exception).

My point is prior to 2001 (When the Pennsylvania General Assembly changed the law to required all marriages to have parental permission) no parent permission was needed to get married in Pennsylvania. Colorado seems to follow the same rule of law. Other Common Law Jurisdictions vary on the subject but all that was needed was the consent of the 12 year old as late as 2001 in Pennsylvania.
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