Study: brain switches off rationality when given 'expert advice'

[bananas]

Source: The Times (UK)

<snip>

“This study indicates that the brain relinquishes responsibility when a trusted authority provides expertise,” said Gregory Berns, Professor of Neuroeconomics and Psychiatry at Emory University in Atlanta, who led the research. “The problem is that it can work to a person’s detriment if the trusted source turns out to be incompetent or corrupt.”

The research, published in the open-access journal Public Library of Science One, suggests that the workings of the human brain make people inherently vulnerable to confidence tricksters and aggressive hard-sell tactics. This may have contributed to the pensions mis-selling scandal, stock market bubbles and even to the origins of the credit crunch.

<snip>

A separate study, published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, has highlighted another way in which the brain makes irrational financial judgments.

Economists know that most people value gross increases in income more than they do larger increases in buying power. Most people, for example, will choose a 2 per cent wage increase against a background of 5 per cent inflation, over a 2 per cent wage cut while prices are stable, even though the latter is financially preferable.

<snip>

Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article5962749.ece

[hobbit709]

1. That explains Republican thought patterns.

The "experts" they listen to: Oxycontin Boy, Insanity, O'Lielly, Coulter, etc.

[indimuse]

8. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hehe....... thx, :)

[fascisthunter]

13. .

[zogtheobvious]

31. Really??

Aw, bullshit!


*chortle, snort, giggle*

:rofl:

[fascisthunter]

52. not bullshit at all

its sad even

[No Elephants]

14. I don't think they have thoughts, let alone thought patterns. And if they have thought patterns,

nothing explains them. Nothing.

Well, except for the upper echelons. Greed and cynicism explains theirs.

[tabatha]

21. Especially when they don't know enough to have independent thought.

[zogtheobvious]

30. You seem stuck trying to find a nickname for Coulter. Allow me to help!

Try Coultergeist, or Man Coulter, those are the two I've read most often on the WWW ;)

[Ms. Toad]

37. "Man Coulter" is not acceptable in this forum.

It is hurtful to trans folks. Please refrain from suggesting that someone use it.

[zogtheobvious]

57. Ah yes

My apologies... it was a reference to what many consider to be her "mannish" appearance and wasn't intended as a slur... however, you've caused me to take a second look at it and I see that it is. Sorry!

[Ms. Toad]

64. It pops up all too regularly here -

usually with the result that the post is deleted - but taking a second look and learning is a good thing!

[NOW tense]

2. How do we know this article is true?

I asked my day trader friend about it and she says it isn't true.

[Tempest]

3. This goes a long way in explaining dittoheads

“The problem is that it can work to a person’s detriment if the trusted source turns out to be incompetent or corrupt.”

[Coyote_Bandit]

4. Speaking from experience

may I suggest that after one of those "experts" sells you down the river that you become a whole lot more skeptical of the remaining "experts" and much more rational in evaluating whatever BS they are peddlling......

[Fumesucker]

5. Clarke's first law..

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

It works for a lot of things besides science..

[rrneck]

6. Makes sense to me...

That's why they sent him. He's an expert.

[ixion]

7. ah, that explains it: I don't trust authority.

hence the rationality doesn't kick off.

[slackmaster]

11. Same here

I tend to automatically DIStrust anyone wearing a business suit or is a self-described "expert" on a subject that I don't know much about.

The biggest crooks in the town where I grew up were easy to spot - They drove the most expensive cars and wore the nicest clothes.

[soothsayer]

27. me either, but it does the same with groups, so beware

even if you go along with the well meaning folks in this joint

[hugo_from_TN]

33. So you're trusting the experts that did this study.

It could just be bullshit.

[LanternWaste]

55. O-kay... that was funny.

O-kay... that was funny.

As my late grandfather once told me, "our skepticism is infinite... until applied to ours own opnions, then it simply becomes non-existent."

[slackmaster]

9. The Milgram Study documented the effect of perceived authority back in 1963

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

[Teaser]

19. slightly different kind of "authority" though

and just as depressing for the future of the human race.

[slackmaster]

20. Only slightly different

White lab coat vs. MBA diploma.

[indepat]

10. And to think how Greenspan held the Congress in breathless rapture as he spun

his handiwork creating two bubbles and supporting junior's tax cuts which he supposed could be paid for by reducing future social security benefits: was he both incompetent and corrupt? :P

Edited to change case of word from singular to plural

[No Elephants]

12. He was the Wizard of Oz. Now the curtain is gone and he's just a carney pitchman again.

[NorthCarolina]

15. So, that explains Michelle Backman n/t

[Thor_MN]

35. A defective sense of what constitutes an "Expert"

Same thing explains my little sister. She's willing to believe absolute crap, "Because he used to be a 'fill-in-the-blank'" She's willing take the third or forth hand word of someone she has never met over solid evidence that proves a statement to be false.

Alternate explaination (and equally valid) for Bachman is that's she just plain fucking nuts.

[Hello_Kitty]

16. This is how those hucksters sold the subprime mortgages

I swear to god if I hear one more asshole blaming the homeowners for the economic crash because they "should have done their homework" or whatever I will scream! :puke:

[phantom power]

17. That is why you should never make decisions until you sleep on it.

Consult the experts. Sleep on it. Then make decisions.

[Grinchie]

22. Truer words have never been spoken Phantom

Always be prepared to walk away from anything and review it for sanity.

Unfortunately, Congress is not aware of this, especially when the Economic system will collapse tomorrow threats are placed upon monetary giveaways.

Unfortunately, the CongressCritters are drugged and stupified.

[Runcible Spoon]

18. Hmmm I don't know whether or not to believe this study!

:silly:

Anyways, not surprising. It's easier to count on someone's credentials rather than critically question what is actually being said. Prolly explains a lot of the poorly articulated knee-jerk defense of neoliberal economic policies.

[bemildred]

23. "Professor of Neuroeconomics and Psychiatry"?

Who is this loon, and why is he belaboring the obvious in such a bullshitty way?

[Dogmudgeon]

42. Who, indeed?

http://www.ccnl.emory.edu/greg/Berns-CV.html">CV of Gregory S. Berns, MD, PhD

He has a body of peer-reviewed work.

You have a "baloney detector".

--d!

[bemildred]

43. Well, this study's point is foundational in the public relations business.

And has been for like 100 years. The third-party testimonial method is built on it. It's a "No shit, Sherlock" sort of hypothesis. "90% of dentists recommend Crest!".

[bemildred]

44. And what the heck is "neuroeconomics"? nt

[AngryAmish]

53. Study of how our brains influence decision making.

People do things all the time that are mathematically inexplicable. For example it is well known that one should not pay extra to the IRS over the year by declining deductions from your paycheck - it is in essence a free loan the the US government. Yet people do this all the time because they like a big refund check. It is stupid. But it pings something in our brains to get a large check.

People think economics is the study of money. It is not. It is the study how people make decisions and why. In fact many people want to rename the discipline "decision science".

Anyway, our brains are funny things that does not always function rationally. We are just relatively hairless apes.

I could prattle endlessly on this subject. I find it fascinating.

[bemildred]

54. Sounds like psychology to me.

The brain is not a mathematical system, so there is no reason to expect it to be mathematically explicable.

People sometimes have other priorities than maximizing profit, there is really nothing to explain. Not that I disapprove of studying psychology or decision making, but it has no more to do with economics than it does with any other human activity. Trying to treat it mathematically might be interesting at times, like game theory, but it will only take you so far.

[daleo]

60. Classical economics is based on the assumption of rational decision making

Results like these really strike at the heart of classical economics, and the elegant theorizing that it is based on. It is as if physicists found out that conservation of mass/energy didn't really apply.

This is one reason I don't take the pronouncements of economists too seriously.

[bemildred]

61. Yes. I just want to add that whether decision making is rational or not is an opinion.

It is not a fact. Decision making is rational if it reasonably leads to what you want, but what people want is not based on reason, it is based on biological urges and the like.

[daleo]

62. Classical economics struck me as a lot of circular reasoning

and hand waving when I took Econ 101 (the only economics course I took, though I have read many books on the subject).

Supposedly, economic man uses rational decision making to maximize his personal utility function. That seems like it could cover just about anything.

"You threw your money down a well!"
"Yes, but I was maximizing my personal utility function by doing so."
"Well, that's ok then."

[bemildred]

65. Yeah, lots of hand waving, lots of begging the question.

Simple observation of the historical record shows that a lot of it is bullshit. There is no perfect market, never has been. But you don't want to dis it all, it's the turning of it into an ideology that is wrong.

[bemildred]

45. So am I supposed to switch off my rationality for this particular expert? nt

[PSPS]

24. Now you know why the pentagon plants all those "experts" in the media.

[Cronopio]

25. Geithner and Bernanke are really banking on this right now. nt

[soothsayer]

26. It also goes along with group think. the brain is lazy, evidently

[tclambert]

32. It is. Studies have confirmed it is easier to believe whatever you're told.

We're wired so our default mode is to accept the info given us, at face value. It takes extra effort to be skeptical. Maybe that's obvious. Thinking, "Hey, wait a minute. Is that really true?" takes more energy than thinking, "Okay, cool."

I read that in Scientific American, so the info is authoritative. (Couldn't resist.)

[olddad56]

28. I think that this not all that earth shattering news.

I think that this phenomena can be better explained by the theory of cognitive dissonance. This happens when something happens and to not believe it would go against what you have been conditioned to think all of your life.

I think this phenomenon is what enabled the Bush Crime family to hijack the republican party,con the moral christians, and fool a lot of everyday normal people.

I think it explains a lot about why everything that happened in the last 8 years happened while most people in this country stood idle-ly by.

It helps explain why most people can't see through the whole 911 conspiracy. We can't bring ourselves to believe the obvious. That those buildings were 'pulled' and you know who was the prime beneficiary.

[NashVegas]

29. Key Word: Trusted

Sometimes, you have to allow the irrational to win one. People with an agenda can and would rationalize us all to hell if we let them. Read up on John Money some time.

When it comes to authorities one trusts or doesn't, it pays to look at someone's past record, body of work, and personal integrity. Most people who claim to be authorities are total poseurs who do nothing more than recite other peoples' research, for their own financial gain.

[tclambert]

34. There is a faction amongst Creationists who regard any way in which science

disagrees with anything in their interpretation of Genesis as nothing more than evidence of another miracle. Fossils more than 6,000 years old? A miracle! Light from distant galaxies took billions of years to reach us? Miracle! Massive evidence that life on Earth evolved? Conspiracy!

How can you argue with that? Anytime you think you came up with an irrefutable argument, they say, "Praise the Lord, it's another miracle!"

[NashVegas]

48. Now You Know What Constantine Meant When He

Came up with that little "In Hoc Signo Vinces" ditty.

[Canuckistanian]

36. Mine doesn't

I believe only half of what I hear ESPECIALLY if I don't recognize the "expert"

Anyone can talk nonsense if couched in attractive statistics, outrageous anecdotes and fake press releases.

My test is if the "news" comes from multiple credible sources over a period of a week WITHOUT serious challengers.

[AlphaCentauri]

38. am I abnormal?

why do I have to question even trusted authorities?

[L0oniX]

39. So is this what happened to Chimpy?

[UpInArms]

40. the Maestro Greenscum comes to mind

wish he were in prison or 6 feet under

[GoddessOfGuinness]

41. I'd be willing to bet that the amount of trust given an "authority"

directly corresponds to that expert's ability to bullshit.

[dysfunctional press]

46. does that mean that Fox Noise should be considered 'expert advice'...?

because the people who watch tend to lose all rationality.

[crim son]

47. SOME brains.

Not mine.

[Zhade]

59. Indeed.

NT!

[tom_paine]

49. How long since the Bushie-CIA organs had this information?

Long before they set out to set up the bullshit Punditocracy with their Corporate Vassals in GOPM$M, laying plans in the 70s, probably soon after they had this information about the people they sought to zombify and rule.

Yawn. Like so many aspects of Bushiganda, Goebbels v2.0, I didn't need any study to tell me what I can see with my own eyes.

MORE confirmation of the obvious.

[Igel]

50. And I continue to say that

critical thinking is most important not with those you distrust and disagree with, but with those you trust and agree with. First, with yourself; then with those you respect and admire.

It does two things: Wrt yourself, it helps your arguments and helps prevent foolishness. Wrt others, it keeps their feet from suddenly turning to clay.

After all, all this is saying is that an appeal to authority is a fallacy and backing it up with data. So whenever anybody tries to end a conversation with "But X says it's ok" or starts a conversation with "Look how they're challenging X" you know they've shut off their brains and activated their group-solidarity or faith-producing "modules".

[David__77]

51. The price/wage example is telling.

People have a hard time seeing past the gimmicky crap in marketing that is related to this example. Supermarkets sometimes have "half off" sales, but raise the base price during the sale, so that an item that is $2.99 prior to the sale become "half off" $4.50, or $2.25, during the sale, for example. Then, after the sale, the base price goes back to $2.99. But people see the "half off," and it causes some irrational response so that the numbers themselves are not analyzed. I guess as an economist, I've trained myself to see through that kind of stuff. For instance, of course I'd prefer a small wage cut with no price inflation over the other scenario of no pay increase and greater inflation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. Pfft! "Public Library of Science One" What do they f'ing know?

"Experts"? Dipshits all.

;)

[Zhade]

58. This explains religion, then.

NT!

[Beetwasher]

63. Professor Berns Is Correct. Professor Berns Is Correct. Professor Berns Is Correct

Must trust professor Berns. He is correct. Trust Berns. Berns correct. Brain switches off. Berns correct.

[Critters2]

66. I've seen psychotherapists use this to do some real harm.

It's why I'm careful to refer to therapists trained only in the methods of Carl Rogers or Marshall Rosenberg. They don't give advice.