Pittsburgh boy, 11, to be tried as adult for shotgun murder

[depakid]

Source: The Australian

AN 11-year-old US boy accused of shooting and killing his father's pregnant fiancee was given a shotgun as a Christmas present. Police say Jordan Brown shot Kenzie Houk, 26, in the back of the head while she slept at her home in Wampum, Pennsylvania.

They claim Brown went downstairs to Houk's bedroom with two guns but returned after her daughter saw him. He then hid a gun - a youth model 20-gauge shotgun he received for Christmas - in a blanket and went back to shoot Houk.

Brown returned and caught the morning bus to school on time with his eight-year-old stepsister. Workers on the property called 911 after Houk's four-year-old daughter came out of the house in tears. At a preliminary trial today, it was decided Brown be tried as an adult answering first-degree murder charges.

If convicted, he will serve a mandatory life sentence.



Read more: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25239337-401,00.html

[sharp_stick]

1. How in the hell can you try an 11 year old

as an adult? I'm always amazed when DA's try to pull this shit. There is no way that you can claim that an 11 year old kid has the mental capacity of an adult.

Imagine the tiny straps you'd need to put on the lethal injection gurney, plus the costs associated with buying all those pediatric IV supplies. :sarcasm:

In all seriousness, a mandatory life sentence for a fucking 11 year old? Fucking idiots, an 11 year old has a hard time contemplating next month never mind 20 or 30 years. The DA should be fired for being dumb then disbarred for being an idiot.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. It's usually fairly easy to establish that they're not competent to stand trial

in an adult proceeding. They lack the mental capacity to participate effectively in their own defense. You can usually get these things knocked out of court at that stage.

[sharp_stick]

5. Absolutely

I just find the posturing of the DA's in these cases to be totally offensive. It's just a PR play... Look how tough I am on crime, I'm willing to send an 11 year old kid to the Pen for life... whoooo

[Rage for Order]

7. So you'd be happy if he moved next door to you when he was released?

I'm curious, because you obviously think the kid should be released back into society at some point. That being the case, where should he live when he is released, presumably around the age of 18?

I don't think he should be tried as an adult, but I also don't think he should ever see the outside of a detention center again. Let him serve in juvenile hall until he's 18, then transfer him to a prison.

[EmilyAnne]

17. A kid can be tried in a children's court, but sentenced as an adult.

Cody Posey killed his entire family when he was 14. He was found guilty of 1st degree murder in a children's court.
Being convicted in a children's court, he could have still been given an adult sentence.
But, in an adult court, he would have definitely been given an adult sentence.

The systematic abuse and threats that this child endured were corroborated by teachers, his father's employees and family members.
These were made clear throughout the trial and led to a sentence in a juvenile center until the age of 21, not 18.
The sentencing depended on mitigating factors as well as his potential to be rehabilitated.
Before any case was made, if he had been tried through adult court, the mitigating factors that subsequently came out could not have saved him from an unjust sentence.
That is why I support this 11 year old being tried in a children's court.
It allows but does not guarantee a children's sentence.

I think there are many sentences that place a person in prison after they outgrow the detention center, but that would probably undo a lot of the rehabilitation that is focused on in the juvenile center.

Its such a difficult thing to deal with. What to do with underage violent offenders?
This one is 11 which is shockingly young. Maybe a history of abuse will come out in trial?

[Jackpine Radical]

19. I'd bet on it. The defense atty needs to get a GOOD psych eval done.

"Maybe a history of abuse will come out in trial?"

[wisteria]

20. Apparently, this child was the center of his father's universe until he met and

became engaged to the woman who was killed. This case is being presented in the local papers as a case of jealousy and rage.

[sharp_stick]

45. That is without a doubt the most reactionary

and possibly stupid reply I could have expected. I didn't expect it here. How about the death penalty for him? You don't seem to mind locking him up forever why not take it a step further? I'm sure somewhere they can find someone willing to shoot him full of KCl.

My concern is not at this point whether or not the kid/man will move in next to me. The point is that a child of 11, be he nuts or sane, is not capable of being tried as an adult. Intellectually, psychologically and physically a child of 11 can not comprehend the results of actions that could cost him the rest of his life.

Even without a trial of any kind you seem so willing to stick someone away for life. Odd thing with that, what if there are some weird extenuating circumstances going on here? Reactionary responses are so black and white, they never allow a shade of grey to invade.

[REP]

66. It worked for Edmund Kemper ... oh, no it didn't

How about Richard Grissom, Jr? Releasing him after his juvenile sentence for murder (he beat an elderly woman to death with a railroad spike) worked out well ... except for the four women he went on to kidnap, rape and murder.

[Jackpine Radical]

11. Don't get me started on DAs.

I just dealt with a situation in which an underage girl repeatedly and persuasively recanted her statement that she had been sexually assaulted by her stepfather. She apparently made the accusation as revenge for his grounding her for misbehavior. Th DA, of course, said that she must go through with her accusations or he would bring every charge he could think of against her. As a result, a guy I believe to be innocent was sentenced. I have seen many similar cases in which DAs have pursued insane and unjust prosecutions.

[saigon68]

15. They are crazy and drunk on power

Many of them are nominated by Nut-Job governors who have political agendas to stay in power.

Then later they become Judges and wreak havoc as they pillage.

[Jackpine Radical]

18. They're elected in WI, and probly half of them move on to judgeships.

For a supposedly reasonably liberal state, we have some truly nutso judges.

[depakid]

31. Other recent cases in Pennsylvania bear mentioning in this regard

As many as 5,000 children in Pennsylvania have been found guilty, and up to 2,000 of them jailed, by two corrupt judges who received kickbacks from the builders and owners of private prison facilities that benefited. The two judges pleaded guilty in a stunning case of greed and corruption that is still unfolding. Judges Mark A. Ciavarella Jr. and Michael T. Conahan received $2.6 million in kickbacks while imprisoning children who often had no access to a lawyer. The case offers an extraordinary glimpse into the shameful private prison industry that is flourishing in the United States.

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2009/2/18/amy_goodmans_new_column_jailing_kids_for_cash

You can't tell me that the DA's office(s) -and other judges in the state weren't complicit in that.

[notadmblnd]

24. Oh man, do I have a story I could tell you

When my sister decided to leave her abusive husband, my husband and I gave her a place to live with her 3 girls. My brother in-law, a alcoholic sociopath called protective services ( got his 7 yr old to go along with it) and said my husband molested her. My husband had never been alone with my sisters girls. They were never allowed to stay here, when they didn't live here, when I wasn't home and when we took them in, my sister was with them. Hell, he never even changed one of their diapers when they were babies.

It took us thousands of dollars to hire lawyers after he was charged with 1st degree criminal sexual conduct. What the prosecutor and police put that child through, was every bit as bad as it would have been if she had been molested. When they examined her they poked and prodded her vagina while making her stand on her hands and kneed on the exam table. There was absolutely no physical evidence.

When we went to court and the protective services worker was not there (she is the one who actually filed the complaint on behalf of my sisters ex) I asked my attorney to ask the prosecutor why. The prosecutor replied that the social worker was no longer with the department. I just thought that was too convenient.

I went home, got her name (I had written it down previously when she interviewed me) and called. The woman was sitting at her desk. I called my husband's attorney and had her supeoned(sp?) along with all her files and notes. On his next court date, the worker was in court and we had a copy of her file. I went looking through it (never trust an attorney blindly, he hadn't even looked at the file). What I found was a note from the social worker that had a list of ten reasons why she didn't believe my niece had been molested. It was key to getting the charges dismissed against my husband.

I learned then that there doesn't have to be any physical evidence, all a child has to do is be able to tell a good story and stick to it. If it hadn't been for the case worker changing her mind, my sisters ex showing up in court drunk and my niece's changing story......

I was outraged that a prosecuting attorney would lie like she did just to win a case. If I hadn't called the office that day and believed that the woman was fired, My husband would have spent the last few years of his life in prison.

My brother in law's motivation for all this was to get her to come home. He figured that If she couldn't have her kids with her, she'd go back to him. She didn't. When that didn't work, he had her charged with attempted murder. He had hit his head on the hood of the car he was working under and had a bump. The story he told the police that got her arrested and charged was that she hit him in the head with a hammer. But that's another story.

[raccoon]

42. That BIL sounds like a real POS. HOpe he's out of your lives now. nt

[notadmblnd]

47. yes,, currently doing time.

I hope he never gets out.

[World Traveller]

16. What sane person gives an 11 year old an unsecured gun as a gift??

Thenthere's the basic question of fairness - they're not considered as adults when it comes to driving, signing contracts, drinking, voting... Because they don't have the judgment capacity of adults.

Why are they all of a sudden adults when it comes to crime?

This an ambitious DA pandering to the tough on crime crowd. I hope he gets his comeuppance.

America is almost alone in sentencing juveniles to life in prison.

[JerseygirlCT]

79. I'd like to see whoever gave him and allowed him to access

that gun charged.

At 11, he's nowhere near old enough to fully comprehend his actions. All the more reason why he's nowhere near old enough for a gun, either.

[Butch350]

29. They should fry him in his buster browns.

The little shit knew exactly what he was doing. Don't underestimate youngsters today - they'll do shit on a dare and know
they'll get away with - because the legal system will not try them as adults. A criminal mind, is a criminal mind, no mater
what age it is.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. Okay, would you do it yourself? I mean, tying the 11yo to the gurney and pushing the button?

Or pulling the trigger, or whatever?

Also, do you thing the law should ALLOW executing an 11yo?

[sharp_stick]

48. Don't be surprised by the number of people

that would answer the ad to execute a kid. There are some really crazy shits around and I'll bet there are plenty of them that would get their rock off on something like that.

[sharp_stick]

46. Wow..

I replied to an earlier post from a reactionary nutbag but here comes another to take the prize out of his hand. This one is so fucking out there I can't really tell if you're even serious or not.

Oh and the word is matter, I think people that spell the word matter as mater should be shot with a frozen ball of their own shit just for kicks.

Nice to know you're such an expert on juvenile psychology that you can figure this out without even reading a case file. Fucking weird shit going on around here.

[Lorien]

65. You said it. nt

[chemenger]

59. I'm not an attorney but I think that, by PA state law, he must be tried as an adult.

nt

[Bunny]

60. I think the law requires that initially he be charged as an adult.

Then a preliminary hearing is held to determine if he will be tried as an adult. That was what took place yesterday. The hearing could have determined that he be tried as a juvenile.

[happyslug]

67. That's Correct, this has been a big story in Western PA for the last month

Technically this in Lawrence County, whose County Seat is New Castle, PA. That is two counties North of Allegheny County, whose County Seat is the City of Pittsburgh.

February 21, 2009 on the arrest of the 11 year old:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09052/950714-100.stm

February 22, article on the Murder:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09053/950921-52.stm

February 24, 2009 article on the legal aspects of the case:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09054/951008-85.stm

February 24, 2009 article on the victims relatives on the 11 year old:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09055/951232-85.stm

February 25, 2009 editorial opposing trying the 11year old as an adult:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09056/951363-35.stm

February 25, 2009 article on the Victim's funnel:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09056/951435-455.stm

The February 25, 2009 article on the move of the Child from the Lawrence County Jail to a Beaver
County Facilities for Children (Beaver County is just south of Lawrence County).

Another Article on the same subject, date and move:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09056/951442-455.stm

February 26, 2009 Articles about the prosecutors being caught up in a fix do to State law saying he has to be tried as an adult, but he is still only 11 years old:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09057/951796-85.stm

February 26, 2009 Article on Lawrence County wanting ot move the Child from his placement in a Beaver County Facilities do ot the cost of keeping him at that Facility:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09058/952088-100.stm

From Feb 27, 2009:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09058/952088-100.stm

February 28, 2009 Article with some background on the Custody dispute between the Mother and Father of this Child:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09059/952334-54.stm

March 3, 2009 Article on the move of the Child to a Erie County facilities (New Castle had no Facilities to hold such a child):
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09062/952766-455.stm

Similar Article on March 2, 2009:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09061/952655-100.stm

March 24, 2009:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09083/957945-100.stm

March 25, 2009:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09084/958103-455.stm

In addition the following articles on the related subject of teens and guns were also published in the last month:

A March 4, 2009 Article on PA laws on Teens and Guns:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09063/952918-35.stm

March 1, 2009 Article on Guns, Hunting and Kids:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09060/952212-455.stm

Letters to the editor on March 1, 2009 on this Subject:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09060/952129-110.stm

[JerseygirlCT]

78. I agree

And where is the responsibility for the person who gave him that gun? And allowed it to be stored where he could access it?

[Skittles]

2. ridiculous

[napoleon_in_rags]

3. That'll show em. Just the other day I heard some fifth graders planning a hit.

Then one of 'em stepped in and said: "Hey guys we gotta cool it, see. Turns out the feds are cracking down on us, trying us adults. We can't get away with having our parents take the fall for our ownership of rifles and handguns anymore. They finally figured out that 5th graders are completely grown and mature and can be trusted with guns and ammo. We've been deterred!" They then went to recess.

[BuelahWitch]

25. He did plan her murder

He wrapped the gun in the blanket so it wouldn't be seen. The stepmother's baby was to be a boy and would usurp his position as his father's only son.

He's a psychopathic little murderer.

[Politicalboi]

30. Yes he did plan it and

He loved to shoot. He had won a turkey shoot on Valentines Day. He knew the power of a gun. I just don't know how his dad or anyone didn't take him seriously when he made the threat. And how come they didn't take his gun away or take him to a shrink.

[napoleon_in_rags]

35. I look at it this way:

If an adult gives an 11 year old the keys to the car and says "have fun", we don't blame the 5th grade kid if he crashes pulling out of the driveway, we blame the adult who gave let a child drive his car.

If an adult gives an 11 year old whiskey for dinner and the kid gets belligerent, we don't treat the kid as an adult and lock him up in the drunk tank, we ask why an adult was feeding an 11 year old whiskey.

Similarly, if a kids parent packs crack cocaine in in their lunch box, we would have a problem with the parent if the kid is strung out on crack at show and tell, we wouldn't call the kid a junkie and tell him to pay his own damn way through rehab.

So given these three things, why in the hell should we blame the kid for a situation which is more dangerous than any of the above - giving the kid a loaded shotgun? The thing about trying the kid as an adult is not that the kid gets tried for wrong actions, its that everybody else involved gets removed from responsibility. And the thing is this: When you have a preteen kid, you DO have to take some responsibility, whether its access to crack or shotguns.

[BuelahWitch]

43. The kid threatened to kill her and her little girls

True, I don't think it was smart of the father to give the kid a shotgun. But lots of boys go hunting with their father's in that part of the country and don't end up killing anyone (at least not on purpose). But when you're 11 you know right from wrong. He's a menace to society and should be put away.

[napoleon_in_rags]

75. Face it, its a terrible ruling.

The law isn't about revenge, its about setting guidelines about what's cool or isn't in a society. This ruling sends the message that we can give elementary school kids loaded guns, and expect them to act like adults. WE CAN'T. There's some cultural mystique about a boy hunting with his father that's blinding us to an obvious reality.

What if the story had been moved around, and instead of a loaded gun, the elementary school kid had been given a syringe filled with HIV infected blood by his father...He had said he didn't like the babysitter and threatened her, so next time she came over the kid stuck her with the HIV infected needle. EVERYBODY would be asking why in the hell the father gave his kid an HIV infected needle, not talking about the kids "premeditated" attack. Yet in reality, an HIV infected needle would be a lot more SAFE. Even somebody infected with it would have a good chance at life with antiretrovirals. We would give the parent at least SOME responsibility to send the message that its NOT okay to let elementary kids play with biohazards. And that's the message we should be sending about letting them play with deadly weapons.

[tonysam]

76. It Used to Be Kids That Age Received BB Guns.

What in the HELL would possess a father to give a young kid a shotgun? It's insane.

[Doremus]

50. Because there is a bloodthirst in this country for revenge, not justice.

I'm in a discussion on another board about the woman sentenced to life in prison for shoplifting. Most of the participants think it's a just sentence. WTF?

There's a reason we have the highest per capita prison population in the WORLD, higher than Russia, China and third world dictatorships. Americans have a lust for revenge. They will pay higher taxes to get it, ignore facts to get it and make themselves look like crazed maniacs to get it.

The thought of being subjected to a jury trial is nightmare inducing.

[napoleon_in_rags]

70. Its like they want to be bent over and $crewd.

You're so right. Life for shoplifting? Now how much does that cost the taxpayers? I have a funny feeling more the value of the shoplifted item, and much more than the cost of rehabilitating the perp and making them work in service to society to pay back their wrongs, while training them to be productive members of the economy. They have no idea that they are paying out the ass for their "revenge" to third parties, like prison companies that are only too happy to collect. Sometimes I just cant blame the big corrupt players - they screw people, but how much can they be blamed when people are so eager to get screwed???

[happyslug]

69. When I was in Third Grade I had to take a public Bus by myself.

I took the 46 D Curry from Broughton area of South Park Township (It may have still be known as Snowden, the name of the township till 1967), to downtown Pittsburgh (I recognized it by waiting till it went through the Liberty Tunnels). I then exited the bus at the County Jail, walked around the County Jail and Caught a 73 Highland bus to Children's Hospital in Oakland. I then exited the bus (Fifth avenue was then two ways, it only became one way in the 1970s) and walked up what later I learned was called "Cardiac Hill" for the old Pitt Stadium was on the top and several Hospitals were on both sides on the Street I had to walk up. Then tune left to go to the Pitt Dental School to get a cap on my front tooth which I had broken. I was only 9 (maybe 10) when I did this. My Older Sister who was in Collage shown me it once, but after that I was on my own. Fare was 25 cents plus 10 cents for a transfer (Total 35 cents). Till I was 12, I paid half fare, I can NOT remember paying half fare, but I remember when I turned 12 and was making the trip in fifth and sixth grade and had to start paying full fare.

For you people NOT familiar with Allegheny County, South Park borders Washington County, which is the county south of Allegheny, The trip in the 46 D Curry Bus took 2 hours to get to Downtown Pittsburgh.


Broughton is at the bottom of the map where Broughton road meets Brownsville Road
It was a 1 hour trip, Today PAT says it is an hour, but that is with use of the Bus-way and the Transit tunnel, which did not exist in the late 1960s when I took this trip.
Now, there was a 48 minute trip, it bypassed Brentwood and Whitehall, I could NEVER catch that bus, but it was quicker but came rarer. Today's bus schedule says only 14 trips a day are made, which about what I remember but I could be wrong on the frequency. According to Google this is a 12 mile trip, if one uses the direct route, which as I said, I could NOT do. My guess it is about 20 miles given the various turns the route made.

Now the 73 highland bus came more often and did its trip quicker. It was a 15 minute trip and came every 30 minutes. I had the option of taking the 71 Negley, 73 Highland, 71 Hamilton Routes. When I made the trip again in the fifth and Sixth grade I learned about the "Forbes Avenue" routes (At the time, the late 1960s, Forbes and Fifth were two ways streets, the above three went on Fifth, the 61 series went on Forbes. These included the following. 61A East Pittsburgh-Wilkinsburg, 61B Braddock-Swissvale, and 61C McKeesport-Homestead. Today all of these routes still go out Forbes and came back Fifth between Oakland and Downtown, but in the 1960s they stayed on Forbes both ways.

I always observed that in the Third Grade, when I first made the trip, it was Monkey see, Monkey do. My older sister told me what to do (Which I promptly forgot) and showed me what to do (Which I followed rigidly). She had been in a hurry to get to Collage (She was going to Pitt) so wanted to show me the ropes, but get to Pitt quickly. So when we hit downtown, she exited off at the County Jail and walked up the tiny sidewalk on the side of the County Jail to the last stop of the Oakland buses in Downtown Pittsburgh. She told me to continue into town and go up one block to Fifth to catch the bus, that I promptly forgot, but since she took me along the Jail I always did that trip for that is what I remembered. I was NEVER late or became lost. In the Third grade I would have been lost if I varied more then a block from what I was shown. In Fifth Grade I could read a Schedule and travel anywhere in Pittsburgh and NOT become lost. In many ways that is the difference between Grade School and Middle School, more experience and thus knowledge of what to do.

I bring this up to show Fifth and Sixth Graders are capable of many things adults can do. Third Graders can mimic adults but are not quite able to do what an adult can do. When you are about 10-12 you can start to do those things, but are still to young to do them as while as an adult, but you can do them, unlike a child less then ten who does NOT have the experience, to do so. Even in Fifth and Sixth grade most of what the Child does is mimic not original thought. One of observation about children prior to puberty is their are the most conservative people out there, it is the way it has always been (to them) and the way it will always be. Teenagers become much more "liberal" as they start to learn to do things on their own, but here we are talking about a 11 year old child. As a pre-adolescent child he wants a "traditional" family as much as possible (Yes, a mother and father who lives together with him). He can accept the fact that is NOT the case, but deep down he rejects it. This is one of the problems with this case, the Father bringing in a "substitute" Mother. How much it was a factor I do not know, but it is a factor and one parents must watch out for in their pre-teen children.

Side Note: I use the term "Conservative" in the James Burke sense of the word, one that avoids changes unless needed, but accept the need for change. Modern GOP-Conservatives are NOT James Burkean Conservatives. Modern American Conservatives claim they are followers of Burke, but they are more reactionary in wanted to reverse the concepts of the Welfare State OR proactive in promoting whatever business wants (including Anti-union and Anti-Labor activities). The Religious Conservatives are the most Burkean, but are the weakest link on the GOP-Conservative alliance (Weak in sense that they do NOT support business over Labor in all regards AND weakest in getting anything out of the GOP-Conservative Alliance and the decline of the Religious Right is the chief reason for the gains of the Democrats since 2000). The GOP can NOT understand that unless the Religious rights SOCIAL programs are meet (Abortion, etc) the Religious Right has a long history of supporting labor rights and the rights of the poor against the Rich (i.e. if the conservative Religious agenda is NOT satisfied, the Religious Right will vote Democratic in support of Social Security, and the rest of the Welfare state).

Now some of the big name religious right are also economic right wing, but that is NOT true of the rank and file nor most of the preachers of the Religious right. The classic example is the Catholic Church, which opposes abortion but otherwise support the Democratic platform. If abortion is NOT an issue, Catholics, like many religious right fundamentalist vote Democratic. Thus the GOP makes a big deal about Abortion, gay rights and criminal law. These are three issues the GOP can use to get these people from NOT voting Democratic. If these three issues are NOT on the agenda the GOP loses, thus why these three issues are always being brought up even if they have been dead issues in that area of the Country for decades. This is the reason this child is on Trial in an adult court, the GOP used the fear of teens getting away with Murder to change the law to try all teens as adult. The GOP was hoping the next big case would be some 16 year old Black who they can use in an ad on how the GOP was protecting people from teens who attack the elderly. Now they have a 11 year old child being charged with shooting a woman. The Child is the poster board on why such a law is stupid and undercuts the GOP use of teens and Crime as a Campaign issue. The Religious Conservatives believe people should pay for their crimes, but also that you should protect children. Thus religious conservatives want to protect this child, even through he killed someone. The circumstances of the case is worse given that the Mother lost the child in a bitter custody battle do to the fact she was undergoing some serious problems at the time of the original placement of the child. This case is a GOP nightmare when it comes to their use of Crime as a wedge issue among religious Conservatives to keep them voting GOP. Hopefully the GOP will arrange for this child to be sent someplace to both get treatment and understanding of what he had done.

[dugaresa]

6. this was more than likely over jealousy

he was used to being alone with his dad. the new wife by all accounts entered the picture, tried to mother him, and this was his response.

now who knows if more info will come out, but i always wonder if there is any meaning to the "success by six" mantra. the idea that kids who do not get the essential people and love skills they need by that age are basically broken. his childhood was messed up to a degree, perhaps that is what led to this crime. does it mean he is broken forever? i have no idea but it is a sad situation all around. his father loses his wife and the unborn child they were having together. he also loses his son. that woman's children are now messed up too.

[Jackpine Radical]

13. A quick, superficial and oversimplified answer:

a) Yes they are broken by 6. There are, for one thing, many critical developmental stages in these early years that require certain types of experience and learning to occur.
b) No it's not necessarily forever, depending on the nature of the early traumas or experience deficits, and upon the kind of therapy they get.

[Jefferson23]

8. Because this 11 year old really is like an adult, right. How much longer

is this barbaric approach in our justice system going to go on?

[bluestateguy]

9. well, he should look at the bright side

If he is jailed for life, he might end up setting the record for number of years spent in prison.

I believe Paul Geidel has the record, at 68 years, though William Heirens is catching up to him (63 years).

[Oldtimeralso]

23. I Don't Think That Geidel's Record Should Be 68 Years,

As he was paroled in 1974 but refused to leave as all he knew was living in prison, so NY let him stay 6 years voluntarily as a guest of the state not a prisoner!

[burning rain]

10. Christ...

I'm no bleeding-heart when it comes to violent crime, but this is nuts.

[Tiggeroshii]

12. What a bad, horrible, evil person.

For doing such a thing. His soul is rotten, and he has no hope. He's no better than shit that should bleed to death slowly in a closet.

:sarcasm:

[wisteria]

21. There was a young woman and her unborn child who were victims too.

She was very close to giving birth. This was a senseless killing. I am not saying it serves any purpose to try the 11 year old as an adult, but just lets not forget he was not the victim in all of this.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. He won't bleed to death unless he gets stabbed in prison.

[BuelahWitch]

28. And what of these two little girls who are without their mother?

I guess they can go to hell huh?
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6547657,00.jpg

[notadmblnd]

14. the person who should be tried for murder is the one who gave him a gun.

My son, 16 next week, got his first shotgun from his grandfather for Christmas. I told grandpa my son could have it to go hunting, but grandpa had to keep it at his house. A 15 year old doesn't need the temptation. His head goes out his ass when his friends are around and the last thing I need is for him to be showing it off and an accident happen. My son is perfectly fine with the gun being stored at grandpa's and only comes out when the two go hunting.

[wisteria]

22. You're right. The father holds some blame in all of this.

Allowing guns to be readily available in a household with young children is utterly irresponsible. However, this crime took place in a rural area of PA that fits the comment of "clinging to their guns" perfectly.

[RamboLiberal]

52. Good for you - a number of years ago I went to the funeral of a 12 year old

One of our karate students at the time. I hope I never go to a child's funeral again.

On a school holiday he was at a friend's house and they pulled out a rifle belonged to the brother of the friend. Playing with the gun - bam the child was dead.

I'm a gun owner but I think its the stupid parent who doesn't keep the firearms and/or the ammo under lock and key when there are children in the house.

[RamboLiberal]

53. I agree - the father should be tried as well

In fact in Allegheny County we have a stupid father who is charged after his 9-year old son killed his twin with a rifle.

The Upper St. Clair man whose son shot and killed his twin brother will stand trial for involuntary manslaughter.

Michael K. Lanese, 67, was ordered to stand trial by Common Pleas Judge Jill E. Rangos after a preliminary hearing today for charges in the death of his 9-year-old son, Christian.

Prosecutors allege that Mr. Lanese's gross negligence resulted in the death because he allowed the boys to play with guns unsupervised.

At the hearing, Upper St. Clair police Cpl. Ronald Klein testified that Stephen Lanese told him the boys were loading and unloading a .348 Winchester rifle in the master bedroom of their home. Stephen said he pulled the trigger on the rifle thinking it was unloaded, accidentally shooting Christian in the back of the head as he sat at the foot of the bed.

Mr. Lanese told police that he did not know the boys had the firearm and that he kept the ammunition in a different part of the house, but Stephen told Cpl. Klein that the boys got the shells from the bedroom closet, where they knew the ammunition was kept.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09077/956480-100.stm

[JerseygirlCT]

80. Exactly

At 11? No way he's old enough to understand the implications of either gun use or murder. It should never be anywhere he can access it. Ever.

[Mr. Hyde]

87. I'm as pro-second amendment as you can get & I agree. Kids shouldn't have access to the guns

They are irresponsible and their sense of wrong and right is too frequently underdeveloped. The father's role in this needs to be investigated.

[iamthebandfanman]

27. im assuming because it was premeditated

is the reason he got tried as an adult?

clearly he knew what he was doing was wrong, or he wouldnt have tried to hide it and then gone back right?

*shrugs*

hard call on this one.

obviously he deserves some sort of punishment tho.

[davidinalameda]

32. the more I read, the less of a hard call it is for me

the kid knew what he was doing

trying this kid as a juvenile won't work

he needs put away for longer than ten years

[buckrogers1965]

33. There is a simple test to determine if someone knows right from wrong.

Did they try to hide what they were doing? Did they act guilty? Did they create a plan and act on that plan, knowing what the consequences of their actions were.

Hiding the gun, going back in after the others had left to do this, all sure signs of premeditation.

I am from a gun culture. No 11 year old ever shot anyone back home my entire life back there, despite guns and ammo in every home. Often a loaded gun by the door.

[depakid]

34. Under your definition, any 5 year old who ever stole a cookie

is guilty of theft.

Should they be tried and punished as if they were adults?

[BuelahWitch]

44. You are equating murder with STEALING A COOKIE?

:eyes:

[Abacus]

51. (and a 5-year-old with an 11-year-old)

I have no doubt that this kid was aware of the significance of his actions. Whether or not to try him as an adult, I think, is knowing whether this child is likely to be a danger as he continues to mature. I don't think any of us sitting behind our monitors have the capacity to answer that.

[depakid]

74. It's a slippery slope- where do you stop? 9-year olds? 7-years old?

And as to the above post- the difference is ONLY in the seriousness of the crime, and NOT in the concept of "knowing right from wrong" expounded- which seems to be some people's justification for mandatory life in prison in the case at hand.

Any 5 year old kid planning on stealing a cookie- then hiding the evidence and lying about it fits the description.

[happyslug]

71. And then taking the School bus to School, shows a lot of thinking here.

The traditional Common Law Test is did the Child have the Capacity of a normal 14 year old The test in PA may be different I have NOT looked it up, but I do NOT believe the State Assembly made a change on that subject when they held all children will be tried as adults). This child is 11, can he have the Capacity of a 14 year old? I don't think so, and this is demonstrated by his actions. He did think through the shooting, but NOT hiding the body nor what he would do afterward (In affect he shoot his victim, put his gun away as he was taught to do, then went to catch the bus, as he was taught to do), This sounds more like Monkey See. Monkey do, then any premeditation. He had some premeditation as to the actual shooting (And may be enough, if he was an adult, to support a murder conviction) but none of his action prior to the killing shows anything more then what a 11 year old could think of (remember the test is of a 14 year old).

[JerseygirlCT]

81. Your test doesn't work at all

At 11, children don't even really have a sense of the finality of death. Intellectually, yes. Emotionally? Not so much.

They still don't have enough understanding of the responsibility they take when they pick up a weapon.

That's why they're children, and are supposed to have responsible adults looking after them. It's the adults in this case who ought to be charged.

A child with access to a gun is the problem here.

[bobburgster]

36. No way!

It is fact that an 11 year old's brain is not developed enough to think like an adult.

[Jkid]

37. Simple Solution: Try him at adult court, sentence him as a juvenile.

No point sentencing him to the point where he'll never get out.

[bowens43]

38. What kind of idiot gives an 11 year old a gun? nt.

[Nihil]

41. One with a dead fiancee ...

(Just by way of example)
:shrug:

[RebelOne]

54. The same kind of idiots who buy kids guns

to teach them to hunt and blow away animals.

[Raskolnik]

58. My father bought me guns when I was a kid, and taught me how to hunt

Does that make him an "idiot?"

[Critters2]

72. Yes. nt

[Raskolnik]

84. Ha! What a lovely sentiment.

Which part galls you the most, the guns or the hunting?

Most likely, what bothers you the most is the fact that millions of people own guns and teach their kids to hunt, and the vast majority of them never hurt a soul.

But, by all means, keep clucking your tongue and acting like a bad caricature of a stick-up-his-ass "liberal" that knows best for everyone else.

[Bunny]

39. In watching the local coverage of this, one thing jumped out at me.

The family of the victim told reporters that she had gone out of her way to make the boy "feel welcome". What struck me was that *she* (along with her two other children) moved in with the boy and his father. The boy did not move in with her. I'm really not sure why that comment stuck with me.

It's definitely been portrayed here as a case of jealousy - the boy was upset about the new arrangements and jealous that his father was about to have another son.

I don't know what the answer is, maybe the kid is a bad seed or something. But it's hard to imagine that this child could spend the rest of his life in prison for something he did when he was 11 years old.

[ShortnFiery]

49. I wouldn't lose any sleep over him staying in jail for the rest of his life. Temperament is fixed

at an early age and this murder was CLEARLY pre-meditated.

What he did was well thought out beforehand and executed (a planned series of volitional actions -not a rash "heat of the moment" event) ... what some could term "pure evil." :shrug:

[jody]

56. Understand but is there any way to identify people who are at risk of becoming a threat to society?

Under 18 USC 922 it is illegal for some people with mental problems to possess firearms.

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—

* * * * * * * * * * * *

(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;

* * * * * * * * * * * *

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

[Critters2]

73. We could just assume that 11 yo boys with shotguns are at risk

of becoming a threat to society.

[jody]

77. Thanks but that wasn't my question. n/t

[NashVegas]

86. You Mean, Like

'Gee, it sure was nice of her to make the kid feel welcome in his own home?'

[mtnester]

55. I am torn on this, and clearly, there is at the very LEAST mental health issues for this kid

that need addressed, probably long term/lifetime. Frankly, I can tell you that at 11 years old no way would I have ever thought to take a shotgun and blow someone's head off, it simply never would have occurred to me...for that reason I wonder about the mental health of this child. The hiding it is a big issue..acting out is usually impulsive, so the premeditation on this is incredibly concerning...

That said, sociopaths also tend to develop and show early recognizable symptoms (in this case, I would wonder if there had been some previous symptomatic incidents that went under the boys will be boys category...who knows), this child may very well be at that level...it is not impossible to make that call. If this is the case, then this child, who will eventually grow up into an adult, will need long term confinement from society...I am not certain if true sociopaths can be helped...anyone have thoughts or knowledge on that? I am not calling this kid that, however, could that be a diagnosis? Again, who knows.

I hope there is more information that comes out on this case...it has been disturbing to say the least.

[Blasphemer]

63. Yes... very disturbing

I have to agree that there appear to be serious mental health issues at play. Of course, not knowing his history, we don't know if there were events in his life that led up to this. I hope it's something treatable vs. incurable sociopathy. Hopefully he undergoes a psychiatric evaluation. In either case, a psychiatric facility would seem to be a better option than prison.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

85. Relatives said he threatened to "pop Kenzie in the head"

He should have received counseling immediately after. I guess people don't want to believe their own children could be a threat to them.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

57. I hope they never let the little freak out

[mitchum]

61. He knew the consequences of his deliberate action

May he eat starchy food for the rest of his life

[KamaAina]

62. "Football?! I want a youth model 20 gauge shotgun!!"

"You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"

[beyurslf]

64. He may have known it was wong but did he understand the full

consequences of his actions? Kids that young don't think in the long term like that. Trying him as adult means he goes to prison with the adults--not when he turns 18, but right then. Do you think an 11 yo should be in prison with a 30 yo child rapist?

[JerseygirlCT]

82. That's correct

There's no way he should be tried as an adult.

And the person who should be tried is the person who gave him a gun, and allowed him access to it.

[happyslug]

68. This is a big news item on Western PA for the last month

Technically this in Lawrence County, whose County Seat is New Castle, PA. That is two counties North of Allegheny County, whose County Seat is the City of Pittsburgh.

February 21, 2009 on the arrest of the 11 year old:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09052/950714-100.stm

February 22, article on the Murder:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09053/950921-52.stm

Including picture of home where Murder took place:


February 24, 2009 article on the legal aspects of the case:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09054/951008-85.stm

February 24, 2009 article on the victims relatives on the 11 year old:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09055/951232-85.stm

February 25, 2009 editorial opposing trying the 11year old as an adult:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09056/951363-35.stm

February 25, 2009 article on the Victim's funnel:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09056/951435-455.stm

The February 25, 2009 article on the move of the Child from the Lawrence County Jail to a Beaver
County Facilities for Children (Beaver County is just south of Lawrence County).

Another Article on the same subject, date and move:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09056/951442-455.stm

February 26, 2009 Articles about the prosecutors being caught up in a fix do to State law saying he has to be tried as an adult, but he is still only 11 years old:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09057/951796-85.stm

February 26, 2009 Article on Lawrence County wanting ot move the Child from his placement in a Beaver County Facilities do ot the cost of keeping him at that Facility:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09058/952088-100.stm

From Feb 27, 2009:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09058/952088-100.stm

February 28, 2009 Article with some background on the Custody dispute between the Mother and Father of this Child:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09059/952334-54.stm

March 3, 2009 Article on the move of the Child to a Erie County facilities (New Castle had no Facilities to hold such a child):
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09062/952766-455.stm

Similar Article on March 2, 2009:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09061/952655-100.stm

March 24, 2009:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09083/957945-100.stm

March 25, 2009:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09084/958103-455.stm

In addition the following articles on the related subject of teens and guns were also published in the last month:

A March 4, 2009 Article on PA laws on Teens and Guns:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09063/952918-35.stm

March 1, 2009 Article on Guns, Hunting and Kids:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09060/952212-455.stm

Letters to the editor on March 1, 2009 on this Subject:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09060/952129-110.stm


Even the Tribune Review had Articles on this case (if you call the review a News Paper):
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_613469.html

Article on the child's time in Beaver County at $4500 a week:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_613728.html

More articles:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_617667.html

ttp://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/?searchwords=Jordan+Brown&fields=full&paper=all&search_range=quick&pg_len=15&sort_by=score&result_type=with&quick=7&searchoption=%2Fx%2Fsearch%2F

[happyslug]

83. Other Western PA news sources

The New Castle News:

http://www.ncnewsmedia.com/archive/tim_galleries/SPECIAL_PROJECTS_09/MARCH/JordanBrown_Hearing/Index_1.htm

Video from Attorney on Client and Father:
http://www.ncnewsonline.com/archivesearch/local_story_065133807.html

Editorial on the Child in the County Jail:
http://www.ncnewsonline.com/archivesearch/local_story_064105311.html

Response of the School District to the arrest of the 11 year old:
http://www.ncnewsonline.com/archivesearch/local_story_054163044.html

Not as extensive as the Post Gazette, but the PG is the dominate paper in Western PA, reaching well into the Mountains of the State,