Workers Say Obama Treated Autos Worse Than Wall St

[Hissyspit]

Source: Associated Press

Workers say Obama treated autos worse than Wall St

By JEFF KAROUB (AP Business Writer)
From Associated Press
March 31, 2009 1:20 AM EDT
DETROIT - Many assembly line autoworkers reacted with skepticism and anger Monday to the Obama administration's tough tactics, which stoked long-simmering feelings that the people who put the country on wheels get treated differently than the wizards of Wall Street.

"It's the age-old Wall Street vs. Main Street smackdown again," said Brian Fredline, president of UAW Local 602 at a plant near Lansing. "You have all kinds of funding available to banks that are apparently too big to fail, but they're also too big to be responsible." "But when it comes to auto manufacturing and middle-class jobs and people that don't matter on Wall Street, there are certainly different standards that we have to meet - higher standards - than the financials. That is a double standard that exists and it's unfair," Fredline said.

Many workers - not generally known for their affection toward executives - even sympathized with Rick Wagoner, who was forced to step down as chief executive of General Motors Corp. He was by turns called a "sacrificial lamb," "scapegoat" and "fall guy." "We knew someone was going to have to take the proverbial `bullet,' and it would have made it a lot easier to accept that had the CEOs of the banks also been required to give up their jobs," said Jim Graham, president of a union local in Lordstown, Ohio, where GM produces the Cobalt and Pontiac G5 fuel-efficient cars.

While CEO oustings haven't been widespread among the banking industry, the government did in September reserve the right to remove senior management at American International Group Inc. as part of its agreement to give the insurer $85 billion in emergency aid. AIG Chief Executive Robert Willumstad stepped down as part of that company's bailout package, and the government hand-picked his successor.

Read more: http://enews.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20090330/49d1a350_3422_1334620090331-1243074560

[izzie]

1. So far I guess I think like this also.

More so I think these second class men running all these corp. have not helped any one but them self. If we could run off the CEO's of many corp. and the 'know nothing' boards I think every one would be better off. You just knew some thing was wrong with how they ran their business when you would get their reports on who you could vote for. I would have been more happy to have seen a man from the union and a man making the car on a board than another 'brother-in-law'. I see it in my mind like Phil Gramm and his wife being in powerful places in the govt. and getting to change rules on banking. It is like the 'royal' system of old. You need talent not a frat brother of in-law to make good govt. and corp.

[saigon68]

188. Licking the scrotums of the well to do

Thanks Geitner you POS

[Divine Discontent]

2. read that second paragraph really good those of you who don't believe this isn't going to bite

the administration hard - there's huge unimaginable amounts going to the banks and investment firms, and these blue collar, mostly Democratic union workers are going to turn to away from the president. :(

[IrishBuckeye]

23. Your damn right it;'s going to bite, hundreds of thousands of Union workers help get Obama elected

Countless meetings, phonesbanks, door to door campaigning by hundreds of thousand of Union workers to help Obama get to the White House . It was thought Obama would protect the middle class not wallstreet. He has given trillions to the banks and assults the worker place of American blue collar worker head on. What gives, how is this different than Bush?

[Fumesucker]

31. How is it different than Bush?

Obama has a "D" in front of his name, that makes a world of difference.. :eyes:

[livefreest]

184. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAIT! KEEP HOPE!

Give Obama at least until the end of 2011.
However, most importantly, PLEASE keep calling your representatives in congress, at least once a week.It's a lot to fit in a busy life but absolutely necessary. Obama needs and wants noisy liberals.

[Deja Q]

219. Granted, he wants to keep the base system afloat. Otherwise we'd all be in tents or dead.

Then again, since jobs and "Main street" are the core of our economy, there's not much that's yet been done. A few tax breaks, which is truly wonderful despite what little they do (then add in the national debt), but reversing incentives for companies TO offshore - to my knowledge - has not yet been done.

Maybe we are on track to a one-world government after all?

Let's just get it over with, if that's what's going to happen. These political games everyone seems to be playing are doing more hurt than good.

[BonnieJW]

60. My husband said

he would have expected this if McCain had been elected, since it has been the goal of all repubs to eliminate unions. This coming from Obama is a bitter surprise. He should not have done this without an alternative plan in place. All these automotive plants could be re-tooled to become factories to manufacture wind turbines, train cars, all kinds of mass transit vehicles. The workers could be part of the transition and work in the new factories. Instead, all this knowledge and machinery will be wasted and people will become bitter and in despair.

[gulfcoastliberal]

106. Eliminating unions is a main plank of the DLC/"new dems" (repukes that run for office as dems)

Their central plan is to infiltrate the democratic party as a repuke 5th column in order to finish off the hated New Deal programs that benefit so many millions of Americans. They will take union contributions but once elected, they treat the unions just as repukes do.

[sarcasmo]

197. Bingo, Eliminating the Unions is what this fight is all about.

[livefreest]

185. Keep hope! and assure your husband Obama is on the working folks side.

PLEASE keep calling your representatives in congress.once a week minimum. it's a lot to fit in a busy life but it's crucial. YOU can make change. wall street has power in the Democratic party too, and Pres Obama can't fight all the forces on his own.
Pres Obama needs and wants noisy liberals and progressives.

[liberalsince1968]

208. Why does Obama have to be FORCED to be on working folks side?

[livefreest]

211. we have to pressure him because there are many people and

a lot of money pressuring him to enact policies which protect Wall Street.That includes his aids in the White House, some members in the administration, donors to democratic party's members of congress, so-called "blue-dog democrats", so-called moderate democrats in senate. Finally the main stream media owned by large corporations which don't want any reform in any economic sector because their sector might get some type of reform as well.
all these people spend the week-end together.
now, it's not every one in this administration who are owned by big money. many need your help in calling constantly your representative in congress and the white house. some are Pres Obama, his chief of staff, his Labor secretary Hilda Solis, his senior political advisor David Axelrod, vice-Pres Biden, and many more. if you keep calling to require a progressive agenda then these progressive voices in the administration will have more weight during the closed-door discussions.
Please call and tell everyone who cares too

[Deja Q]

213. WInd turbines? Green jobs?!

[acmavm]

3. Being heavy handed with the auto industry while throwing money at

crooks and liars is a very bad idea.

Obama took 1 electoral vote for Nebraska. Doing things like this, he wouldn't do it again because even non-political people that I know are getting pissed. They don't want to see 'their money' rewarding Wall Street for their dishonesty.

People are getting very angry. DU is not the country. Hero worship doesn't count for shit in the real world.

[Kolesar]

5. "There goes Indiana's eleven electoral votes"

:wah: :grrr:

[tonysam]

92. Is That Ever True. n/t

[spoony]

118. Brilliant post

Especially the last line.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

149. You are exactly right.

"People are getting very angry. DU is not the country. Hero worship doesn't count for shit in the real world".

[Marie26]

172. I just don't get it.

Look, I always believed that Obama was a neoliberal in disguise. But even I'm surprised at how quickly they seem to be tossing away the unions/progressives/Midwest, etc. And how quickly they went to straight Treasury payoffs to Wall St. Doesn't he worry about being re-elected?

[Deja Q]

218. No, he doesn't worry about being re-elected.

He'd said so a couple months ago; if his policies were to fail he wouldn't run again.

I thought it was a stupid thing to say at the time, but if this is what we call "hindsight", he's doing a CYA and we're all a bunch of hinds.

[martymar64]

180. We should have a national "Trash the Bank" day

Everyone should go into their local banks and trash the place. Break furniture, spray paint the walls and windows and bust out windows, Take hammers to the ATM machines, etc. If they steal from us, we should make them pay for it. I don't advocate robbery, just vandalism. Let them know just how pissed we are and make them fear us.

[Deja Q]

217. Seconded. We were taught to believe rewarding dishonesty is wrong.

We work our butts off, try to do the right things, show new ideas, stand out for the right reasons.

It's all a big bucket of manure, isn't it?

And it's not in quotes. Taxpayer money is indeed our money. Our money should be used for the right reasons. If it's put aside for social security or retirement, that is our money. Kept. In trust.

Also a reminder: Obama said if his policies fail, he wouldn't run again. Was he doing a conscious CYA at the time? Or trying to be "nice", even though saying such a thing would give his political opponents (which surely are Republicans?) free ammo to use against him; being a politically stupid move to make and he's been in politics long enough. Then again, he's still human...

[liberal N proud]

4. I tend to agree

It is a double standard. UAW is expected to throw away their contract while we couldn't break the contract with those who brought down the financial system.

What kind of message was it expected to send to those in unions across America?

[saigon68]

10. The ruling class remains in charge

That's the message.

[shadowknows69]

49. Ding ding ding we have a winner.

Feudalism: Alive and well in America

[INdemo]

39. I was thinking the same thing..

Just what concessions have the bank exec given? This President has just made a very serious mistake by trashing the UAW.Does anyone realize this is a great victory for the Republicans and their anti-union cause..And to think a Democrat did this...President Obama just cost me my job..No I am not A UAW worker but my job is tied directly to the steel industry and now I will be a very old man before that industry recovers..I think I made a very serious mistake by not supporting Hillary and now believe that just maybe the roles of Sec of State and President should be reversed.Oh yes Obama gives one great speech and just maybe Hillary was right that Obama was just not ready for prime time..Obama just doesn't realize how much damage he has caused. Its like Senator Corker was his advisor and he listened and followed his advise.If GM goes into bankruptcy court the first thing that goes will be UAW contract... What about all those retirees that thought they were set now are not so sure and to think a DEMOCRAT did this...
So much for the change...The powerful are still in power and the rich CEO's get richer with the money flowing upward and they laugh all the way to the bailed out bank.

[chimpymustgo]

43. Oh come on. I heard many execs cut back to 2 yachts and only 4 castles. Unfortunately they had to

let go many staff. So sad, you know.

[amandabeech]

109. I'm not sure that Hillary would do any better.

If her actions are anything like her husband's it wouldn't be much different.

[INdemo]

136. At least Hillary has a little more experience around Washington and

that could either help or hurt...But what aggravates me is the fact that we keep giving the banks more money with the same people in charge.
They are suppose to be lending but are just sitting on the money..When the Gov't wants to see their books the banks tell them to bug off and thats the end of it...Its a double standard....Right now Obama is acting like a Republican and supporting the banks over working class America..And I'm sorry now that I supported him instead of Hillary. If he forces GM into bankruptcy it will affect thousands of workers that supply the automotive industry and I'm one of those workers. And I'm pissed.

[Hannah Bell]

140. i don't think so either. this is happening because most of the ruling class supports it.

& it's happening globally - in europe, australia, etc. not just in the us.

politicians, for the most part, are paid by the ptb or *are* members of the ptb.

[amandabeech]

142. I have definite leanings in your direction. n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

166. Hillary is just as big a corporatist as Obama

Trust me, nothing would have been different. The DLC, and more importantly, the people they represent didn't care if Hillary or Obama got in, they knew either would do their bidding and so they have. IF there's a bright side in all of this is that MAYBE people will begin to realize that virtually none of these politicians represent US, regardless of party. It's why the parties were set up in the first place, to encourage us to campaign for, send money to and vote for THEIR people. Remember Dean? He got too close and VOILA! The "Dean scream." What a co-ink-y-dink!

[Deja Q]

215. Didn't Obama crack a joke; "the senator from Punjab"?

[Zhade]

210. Don't kid yourself. Clinton would have done the same thing.

Her husband set the precedent, and they don't disagree politically.

[Oerdin]

6. It sucks but...

The industry is not profitable so something has to give. They're eliminating brands, they're cutting models, but it isn't enough. workers and retirees are going to have to give up much more or they will all find themselves out of work with no income to speak of.

[tavalon]

8. And what do the Bank executives who stole all of our money have to give up?

[saigon68]

11. Not a Fucking thing-- Anyone for a junket to the Bahamas?

[pampango]

18. For many of them, the same as for GM's CEO.

"In the past, the United States government had briefly nationalized steel makers and tried to run the railroads, with little success. In the last nine months it has taken control of the American International Group insurance firm and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, firing their management as well, at a cost that dwarfs what is unfolding in Detroit.

He forced out the chairman of a company that, in a previous era, would regularly send its executives to Washington to prod the gears of government. He made it clear that the White House would oversee, and heavily influence, decisions about what plants to shutter, what brands of cars to abandon and how much workers and managers will be paid.

And with no edge to his voice, he left hanging the threat that he might yet force G.M. into a quick, managed bankruptcy, if it was the fastest way to remake the company. That message was directed at G.M.’s reluctant bondholders, an unsubtle warning that they must negotiate to get 16 or 20 cents on the dollar — or risk getting far less."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/business/31assess.html?_r=1

[dflprincess]

157. GM's CEO is walking away with 23 million

If he's very careful, he may be able to make that last for the rest of his life. :sarcasm:

[Summermoondancer]

191. and now you know why I am against the bailouts..

do you see now who the money goes to? This btw is the money you and I work hard to earn...yet, not only did they rape us when we bought our vehicles...they rape us again when we pay our taxes....and we are the little guys.

[amandabeech]

20. It isn't just the executives at banks who should take a hit.

Everyone at those banks should take a hit.

That's what's going on at the auto companies.

Everyone takes a hit whether they have anything to do with making important decisions or not.

Is Obama making secretaries and the folks in the mail room at AIG take hits? He's doing it at the auto companies. Blue and White collar have taken hits.

Way to go Obama!

[progressoid]

94. One of their vacation homes in Aspen or the Bahamas or

maybe postpone remodeling the yacht? :shrug:

[martymar64]

182. Time to torch some vacation homes.

Let them have their ski trips amongst the ashes.

[Romulox]

9. $3 TRILLION to the financial sector alone, Mr. Balance-Sheet.

:hi:

[livefreest]

37. Unfortunately Pres Obama finds himself obligated to spend huge sums

to bail out wall street. Unfortunately Americans have been frightened into believing that the only way to have prosperity is to let the powerful get whatever they want. well they had it and they sunk it all (at least they sunk the portion that belonged to the not so rich).
Now the solution is to regulate tightly all financial institutions, and tie closely the income of wall street executives and traders to the well fare of the companies for which they work.
call your US senators and house representatives.

[chimpymustgo]

44. No. "Americans" DON'T believe that. Only the RULING CLASS (the banksters and politicians) think

"the only way to have prosperity is to let the powerful get whatever they want."

And they just expect to steamroll us - throw us an "election victory" every few years...

They get to live on lobster and caviar...we get "hope and change"!

[livefreest]

173. but republicans have been winning so many elections.

is that not because they convinced enough Americans to let the rich get anything?

[martymar64]

183. You can't eat "hope and change"

Time to make the Banksters pay with their blood. The government won't make them "answer for Santino" but the people can.

[livefreest]

186. exactly. call your representatives in congress, often.

with help from noisy liberals and progressives, Pres Obama can get more of what he campaigned on.

[bvar22]

144. Reagan would be proud.

"Trickle Down Bailouts".
Regulate BEFORE giving them $Trillions.

Its ironic (and obscene) that the autoworkers and their children are some of the people that will be paying for the Wall Street Bailout.

[amandabeech]

153. We also need to make more of what we use.

Manufacturing usually means decent jobs and a decent future.

It also means avoiding dependence on countries that are not always our friends, decreasing our trade gap and insuring that the things we use are manufactured in the most environmentally sensitive manner. That smog from China that bedevils the West Coast is from the manufacture of the things we use here in the most environmentally insensitive manner.

[pattmarty]

28. ???????? How's bout we reverse that? Let's cut "some" banks..............

.........and have those CEO's give back their "retirement" savings? C'mon, get fucking real.

[LiberalFighter]

42. Workers and retirees have already given up enough. You just haven't been paying attention.

[Octafish]

111. All Wall Street's given the American taxpayer is ''Trash for Cash.''

$2 Trillion for something worse than nothing -- a bunch of I.O.U.s rung up by privileged crooks.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

151. That's exactly what the ruling class wants you to tell everyone.

It's those lazy, overcompensated union workers.

[Deja Q]

221. Agreed. The last 30 years has shown an increase in cost of living with ages not keeping up.

Though graphs have shown our productivity has gone up despite not the pay for doing it.

[Deja Q]

220. And with all thee cutbacks, what will people be doing? Or studying TO do?

And what has been said, people have given up quite a bit over the last several years. Especially in the case of the retired, not by choice.

It sucks. I'm tired of sucking and not sucking in a good way.

[tavalon]

7. In other news, the sky is blue

A very interesting follow up question is: Why?

[eilen]

16. Another question is "what can we do about it?"

I felt the same way when I listened to Obama's speech. But I thought about it and considered that the reason why the auto makers are having a very tough time is because they are not selling cars. Its not just GM, all the other auto-makers, foreign and domestic are laying workers off, shutting down plants. Why aren't people buying cars?

Part of the reason is that banks are not loaning as easily, the credit freeze. The other reason is that people are afraid to leverage their personal finances in the face of mass layoffs. Who wants to take a loan out when they are likely to lose their job tomorrow?

It stands to reason that the car companies have to radically change the way they are operating and institutional changes in paradigm are the hardest and most difficult to effect.

My opinion is that cars cost too much. There is little to find new that costs under $10,000. If they could develop a car at that price point that is great on gas, has an innovative design -- they would sell like hot cakes. Not everyone wants an SUV. We plan to purchase a truck in the near future but it will likely be used. They cost too much new.

The other side of it is the banks. We really wouldn't care too much if business did not rely on banks so much for loans to keep operating. I think that is a poor way of doing business. We can't sustain that kind of mentality. If we did not need to borrow from banks, (business and personal) then we could let the banks fall on their face. What that requires is for people to defer gratification, save money before buying. Who would pay those inflated prices for homes if we had to hand it over from our own bank accounts? We all trafficked in imaginary money. Again, to change the way the world operates financially is going to take a lot of time, it is an institutional change and there are stakeholders and institutions that are invested in keeping the status quo who are pretty powerful. I'm talking about international organizations like the World Bank and the Fed. Of course, everyone is upset and wants to point the finger (look at the guy from Brazil blaming all the blue-eyes) but frankly, anyone that accepted lots of money in the form of loans and then, invested future earnings into CDO's etc. without the capital to back it up is complicit.

The crux of it is, we need cars and vehicles. We need them to get to work, to get our groceries, to send our kids to school, we use them every day. Eliminating the means of production for a necessary item and prop up of what essentially is a money-changers gambling hall (which produces nothing of value) is folly.

[Dinger]

55. Vote (nt)

[amandabeech]

110. Maybe you're not getting paid enough, either.

The only people who have made real financial progress for 30 years are those at the top. They're the ones running the show only for themselves.

[RobinA]

148. I Need A Car

I am not buying one because a) I lost a poop-load of my rainy day money and b) despite the fact that my job is PROBABLY reasonably secure I still worry about losing my job and therefore don't want a car payment. Add that to the fact that, despite the fact that no one is buying cars, the prices of cars don't appear to be dropping. Where is capitalism when *I* need it?

[AndyA]

12. The people I talk to do not understand Obama's double standard.

The perception is that the hot shots on Wall Street are being given whatever they want, and still have almost no accountability, while the auto industry, which is the main source of income for many blue collar workers, is being aggressively held to a higher standard. And they don't like it.

I don't understand why there's a double standard, but I think Obama needs to explain it to the American people before too much more damage is done. Obama is losing support, and needs to address this. Soon.

[INdemo]

75. I am just totally overwhelmed with disbelief that Predident Obama has socked it

to the middle class workers and have allowed the bank execs to keep their multimillion dollar jobs after the banking collapse...This is a total reversal from a President that built his whole campaign on change..Now when I listen to him talk about healthcare reform I will believe that the insurance and drug companies will get their way and we won't see any kind of reform whatsoever...

[BobRossi]

13. Queue the apologists.

Get a clue people, this is going to have far-reaching consequences. Obama just took a huge dump on the working class.

[Vinca]

14. While this seems like a reasonable reaction,

which comes first . . . the financing or the manufacturing? Without the banking industry, business can't operate. In the case of Detroit, car loans can't be made to consumers. I'm no fan of Wall Street, but comparing the 2 situations is apples and oranges. The armchair economists now up in arms would be a whole lot madder if Obama took a hands off policy. I'm not Obama cheerleading on this . . . honestly . . . but it's a rare and grave situation and many people seem to be expecting an overnight fix and that's not going to happen.

[Jennicut]

17. That is the problem, isn't it? How to get the credit markets to open

so people can buy cars to begin with. If we let Wall St. tank we are basically free marketers. If we nationalize it we are using our money to do it, just like we are with this Geithner plan (difference is investors can make money off the bad assets). I think Obama is trying to salvage GM. Its lost money since 2004.

[amandabeech]

112. The banks aren't lending because they made bad investments

in the poison products of Wall Street and made bad loans to companies and people who would not have been able to get them if lending standards had been the way they were 10 years ago.

The banks went on a bender, but they're really not paying nor will they be able to.l

Some of that bailout money should have been handed out to responsible bankers to make loans and the loan-making should have been manadatory.

If no banks could do it, then the government should have set up a bank of last resort to do it.

Instead, we funneled taxpayer dollars through AIG to Goldman Sachs, home to many of Obama's financial team, and some French banks.

What a way to go.

[Barack_America]

19. Why not do "Direct Loans" for fuel efficient automobiles?

Direct government lending like the govt. does for student loans.

Lower interest rates will make the loans and eligible cars more attractive to Americans hooked on big trucks and SUVs.

Just a thought, but it would probably be more cost effective than another round of bailout money going directly to the Big 3.

It's time to bypass the financial industry and loosen their grip on our throats.

[pattmarty]

30. "We" aren't expecting overnight fixes, what "WE" want is...................

............FUCKING FAIRNESS, and that is not too much to expect. Let the banks that are probably going to fail, fail. AND, nationalize the rest that want any taxpayer money.

[apnu]

50. And when those banks fail, many industries will fail.

Small businesses will fail, medium businesses will fail, large businesses will fail. Not just one sector, but all sectors.

Companies and businesses often need short term loans to cover their debts while they're waiting for payments on receivables. Letting half the banks fail means there will be very few banks to provide these short-term loans and those banks that do exist will run out of cash to make these loans fast causing them to fail. And then at that point everything comes to a halt.

I agree with the notion of fairness, but Wall St. is holding American hostage, and right now there isn't shit we can do about it. The Federal Government isn't being tough enough on these companies, if they're going to be tough on the auto industry, then they should be equally tough on the financial industry. However, squeeze too hard and the banks will just quit and everything halts. But in time we can get out from under their thumb.

The big three in Detroit have been suffering a management malfunction for a long time. They aren't operating very well and that needs to be fixed if they are to remain a viable industry. But keep in mind that I'm talking about management!!! The workers are fine at what they do and they do good jobs, the problem is the leadership of these companies have run themselves into the ground just like the banking industry.

This is the real issue facing America, not the banking industry vs. the auto industry. No, the real problem is the CEO's, Presidents, VP's, and boards of directors for all of Corporate America. They've been fucking the whole country up for their own short term gain for so long that we're now in this mess. You can pick any industry and if you move enough rocks you'll find all kinds of rot and corruption underneath. Look at the IT industry, look at the agricultural industry, look at the movie industry, look at the chemical industry -- they're all rotting from the top down.

But let the banking industry fail and everything fails. I don't like it, you don't like it, but that's the rock and the hard place we find ourselves in.

[pattmarty]

56. Says who??? We are in a unique point in history, this ain't 1932............

..........Every fucking economist out there has a different view each and every day it seems. I don't fucking know where we will be next year or the year after that and you surely don't.

[apnu]

70. No, but I do know that if the financial industry collapses today...

... then we'll see a Depression far worse than the 1930's. Everybody pretty much agrees with that. Everything is more interconnected and propped up by bad debt now that it has ever been before.

The reality is, we're in a depression right now, its just that nobody in the government or on TV will admit to that. Just like they avoided saying we're in a recession for the last two years of Bush's term when we really were. What everybody, in Obama's government, is trying to do is keep this situation from getting worse than it already is.

As for these economists, all they're doing is predicting different shades of gray for the situation. Plus most of them are wholly ignorant to what's going on and are finding out that everything they knew was bullshit, and so they're just making crap up as they go along in the hope of seeming relevant. Don't listen to them, you need only look at your check book to tell what's going on.

The problem is that the leadership of Corporate America is trying to do what they've always done -- rip us off. This is true for GM as its true for Nike as its true for AIG. I see no difference in any of those companies. All those bastards should be given their walking papers right now, and have the strings to their golden parachutes cut. Corporate America serves one master and one master alone: the shareholder (of whom, these CEO's and VPs and directors are members of). And they fuck over the stakeholders (which is the consumer and the worker, basically anybody who isn't a shareholder but is involved in the company some how).

[pattmarty]

74. You and no one else knows what is going to happen..................

............90% of the people in the country are and have been getting fucked for over 30 yrs by Republican AND Democrats. NOFUCKINGBODY that I know wants ANY more money going to banks and Wall st. WE ARE TIRED (AND BROKE) AND NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE.

[apnu]

80. Yes.

We have the same point.

The failure, right now, is a failure of the upper 10% earners of America. The rest of us depend on them to provide us with employment. Their greed has gotten the best of them and they've failed us. And their greed is still driving them to seek out new piles of cash. They can't get it in the "free market" so now they're looting the treasury. This is true of the banks as it is true of the auto industry.

I don't want more money to go to the banks, and where I work, in the commodities industry, the uber-Republican boot licking, money worshiping, whoring brokers don't want any more money to go to the banks.

Think about that for a minute. Fucking Republicans hate this too.

I understand your rage, I have it too. It just that I've had my soul cleaning rant about this shit already. I'm over the fiery anger and now its just a burning coal in the pit of my stomach. You're on fire right now with rage, and that's OK. Let it burn for a while, we all need to blow off the tension from time to time. Once that's done we can get down to working on fixing this bullshit.

So rant away, please, you're right to do so.

[pattmarty]

83. Then you should know about the greed. I had a friend of mine...............

..............that recently died at 70 that "played" the market. He told me circa 2003 that he couldn't believe the 23% rate of return a lot of "investments" were getting as a return at the time and said it couldn't last. Everybody with "money" and I mean everyfuckingbody was on the greedy gravy train and now it has collapsed. Me, I have been "ranting" for over 50yrs. I am a lower middle class male that retired at 54 because of the evil, crooked Teamster union. I was thrown into a juvenile detention facility at age 16, declared by the court to be "delinquent" for running away from home. Yeah, that's right "running away from home" AND nothing else. I was married at 18 and had 3 children by the time I was 21 (5 kids total). The most money I made in a year in my life was 44K. Ya know, it may sound like a "poor me" story, but I am one of the lucky ones and am extremely glad for what I have and that I haven't been hit by this tsunami (yet). I am a Liberal and have ALWAYS called myself a Liberal. A lot of things need to be changed in this country, and I have my doubts if Obama can or will make any change. Looking at the way he is handling "Wall st", I have my doubts. END RANT

[apnu]

105. You're rant and doubts are cool with me.

Seriously. Doubt Obama, its OK. Some on this board will go after you for questioning him, but not me. And its OK to criticize Obama, in fact, its our job, as his supporters, to keep his feet in the fire on these things.

I'm merely attempting to show people the house of cards we live in for what it is. And the Financial system is that, w/out it, it all falls. Every. last. thing.

Its a shitty deal, and should have been delt with decades ago, but no, America had to go and elect Ronald Fucking Regan, which is, as far as I'm concerned, where all this shit started.

Its up to us to clean up this mess and its gonna hurt a lot more before its cleaned.

[livefreest]

179. and don't forget to call your representatives in congress.

once a week minimum.

[livefreest]

178. Indeed you are one of the lucky if you're not suffering yet.

change will materialize over the long haul. keep calling your representatives in congress and it will happen for sure. please call them.

[amandabeech]

114. I'm not sure that if BOA, Citigroup and AIG went down today,

the world would end.

I'm not sure that if we started winding down other large financial institutions, the world would come to an end.

That's because I'm losing confidence in the people who started saying that in the first place.

I think that they have rather too high an opinion of themselves--they have banking blinders on that don't allow them to see themselves clearly or to see others unlike them at all.

Once these same people start talking about the harm to our society of huge underemployment and unemployment and the dangers of destroying our manufacturing base to the point that we can't even make a toothbrush ourselves, then maybe I'll start listening.

[amandabeech]

122. The banks have alread stopped lending.

I've had a lot of people say that they can't get loans NOW for small business, for anything.

If the banks refuse to lend NOW, then what good are they?

They're causing the economy to contract NOW because they aren't lending, and have no carrot and no Obama stick to do it NOW.

There might have been some truth to your argument before the banks stopped lending, but that's happened. Your worst case is HERE. The banks that are insolvent aren't lending no matter how much money we toss at them.

[No Elephants]

90. You just totally re-framed the issue to make it one of

sequencing and/or speed, when the OP speaks of neither of those.

Regardless of which comes first, regardless of how long it takes, the issue is double standard.

Two industries messed up and needed federal help. Which bank executives got fired for running their companies into the ground? Which retirement benefits or wage increases did lower level bank employees have to sacrifice?

[Vinca]

99. Get a grip . . . I am not defending Wall Street for one second.

I'm curious why you seem to worship this guy who ran GM into the ground. Pick anyone off the street and they could have run it as badly for half the price.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

154. It *is* a reasonable reaction.

Who is doing the financing for the banking industry? People that have been laid off and foreclosed on, among others.

Why can't we do the same for GM? It's not that we can't. Certain people won't.

This stuff about people "expecting an overnight fix" is just an attempt to deflect criticism away from the administration even though the criticism is justified.

[Barack_America]

15. GM lost $80 billion under Wagoner.

I wonder if the people interviewed realize that.

That being said, criticism regarding the treatment of Detroit vs. Wall Street still stands.

[Romulox]

100. AIG lost $62 Billion LAST QUARTER; Obama admin gave AIG $30 billion anyhow.

:hi:

[Barack_America]

103. And the AIG execs should be out too. nt

[Octafish]

113. All told, We the People are into AIG for $173 Billion.

That's just what we know, out of a total Wall Street aid package of almost $3 trillion.

[Hannah Bell]

141. Read the annual reports. Those supposed "losses" are questionable.

for example, in 2007, GM supposedly "lost" about 38 million.

but when you look into the fine print, you find about a 4% increase in the auto mfg profits.

The "loss" = booking 39 billion in deferred tax credits in 3 countries. plus 1 billion lost in the mortgage/finance division.

that's a profit on their auto biz, offset by 39 billion in tax jiggerty-pokerty & reduced by losses in their financial arm.

but to hear the folks on tv, it's all about greedy workers. right.

[flyarm]

163. yes GM lost 84 billion in 4 years..the banks and AIG lost 700 billion in a few months!..

and much of it went to foreign banks!

big difference!

eom

[Hannah Bell]

206. Not losses on their auto biz, & most not real losses, period.

For example, GM's 2007 38 billion dollar loss was 39 billion in tax jiggerty pokerty in 3 countries & 1 billion lost in their finance arm, mostly in mortgages. Yes, mortgages.

Their auto biz was profitable.

Go to the data.

2006 losses of 10 bill also not on their auto biz, but on "restructuring charges" - more jiggerty-pokerty.

[Deja Q]

222. Then Wagoner should be fired and NOT take that $20 million retirement package too.

Sure as hell doesn't deserve it; CEOs always claimed they deserve the big bucks because their decisions can make or break the company.

:shrug:

[MellowDem]

21. It's because the auto industry isn't as vital

and it hasn't been for a while now. If Wall Street tumbles, then you will see a real depression nationwide. If some companies in the auto industry fail, then there will be localized suffering but nothing near the economic turmoil caused to a lot more people through the downfall of financial markets.

Both Wall Street and the auto industries are to blame. Not the individual workers on the assembly line or in the banks per se. The banks really are "too big to fail", which of course should never be the case. But the auto industry is not, and therefore it still has to face possible destruction at the hands of the market. It's not fair, but it's not President Obama's fault. He's doing the right thing, though of course it's not popular.

While I can't stand what a lot of the banks have done, the auto industries have basically done the same thing. Deregulation was the name of the game, not to mention years of protectionism. And of course, this is the end result. Cars that get worse milage than they did 30 years ago, yeah that pisses me the hell off. I think these companies have to fail for us to move on. And I wish the same could be said for the banks. I think the banks should be nationalized temporarily for now.

[cap]

26. the auto industry is not localized suffering

the auto industry tanking will have huge implications nationwide.... The auto industry has huge linkages into major parts of the economy: chemicals, paint, coatings, upholstery, machinery, iron, steel, glass, ceramics, plastic electronics, IT, call centers. Their dealer network and finance. This is an atom bomb with ground zero at Detroit that radiates over the midwest and then spreads NATIONWIDE! It's what will happen in your backyard. Anyone got a Rohm & Haas, Dupont, Pittsburg Paint and Glass, Corning, Delphi, US Steel, IBM, EDS, GMAC, US auto dealership, US Auto Parts supplier etc. in their backyards? This means YOU!

The auto industry is one of the key drivers of the US economy. Not quite like it was in the 60s with our shift in emphasis towards the service sector. But don't kid yourself. Google "Auto Multiplier Effect" or "Auto Industry Linkages" and you will see what I am talking about.

There ain't no easy way out folks. We can't let Detroit continue the way it has; it is unsustainable. But we must renew the auto industry. Whether that means GM and Chrysler continue to exist is another story.

As far as Obama is concerned, I think he does have something up his sleeve. The midwest and the unions are his base. He just would not cannibalize his base. The Democrats won by sweeping the Midwest. They would not give it up so easily.

[MellowDem]

36. I agree it will have a nationwide effect...

but it will be concentrated locally. I understand the multiplier effect as well. But these are all temporary. Someone will step up and take the place of these fallen auto companies along with their markets. If the financial system fails, that's another story.

[cap]

51. It is not concentrated locally....

Those plants and companies are nationwide.... It is not just Detroit. It starts with the state of Michigan and then moves out to the states of Illinois, Ohio, Indiana, and western PA, western NY, Delaware and then it fans out nationwide. I really should get together a ripple map showing what will happen.

Every state and locality has auto dealers, auto parts suppliers, and auto finance. There will be some of your neighbors who won't be so mellow, MellowDem :) (Just teasin' ya... but it's true). Think of those folks going belly up.... I live in eastern PA and just saw a local GM dealer who's been in our town for almost 50 years close up shop. Great supporter of our local community who is gone and all of his support for our local events has dried up.

As far as someone "stepping up and taking the place of fallen auto companies", there are two big problems with that. One is timing... it won't happen tomorrow and it will take years (years where people will be living in economically devasted conditions) and two, who's going to do it? The foreign auto companies aren't in the position to take on that expansion... who's going to finance them? Not the capital markets these days. Toyota aint in great shape either.... and Toyota is the best in the beauty contest of uglies.

[MellowDem]

66. I guess what I am trying to say

is that local communities that have a lot to do with the auto industry (in whatever way) and especially ones that cater almost exclusively to the auto industry will be really hurt, wherever they are, nationwide. The thing is, despite how big the auto industry is, its fall is surviveable and probably even necessary.

As for my local community I live in now, it's a mid-sized old steel town in Ohio that long ago lost it's luster and has been struggling for decades. For many, this is nothing new. It's just part of the unfortunate process. I do feel for those who will be hurt the most by this, but it's inevetible. I think that there should be government support for those who lose their livelihood to the tides of globalization.

But as soon as the recession lets up, there will be other companies ready to take the place of GM and Chrysler (Ford is still alive). America is a huge car market that will draw a lot of investment.

[mbperrin]

79. Financial system went in the 80s, had no impact except to clear out

bad banks for a while. Then of course Satan Gramm went to work, and we got where we're at now. What do you do with weeds? Rake 'em up and burn 'em. There won't be a multiplier, because there are no real losses. You can't lose money you never had. And you can't lose money you'll never have.

Shut down the casino, shut down naked betting. Very quickly, assets will revert to real things, and we'll be done. Now, yeah, a lot of fat-ass con men will be jobless, but phhhht!

[MellowDem]

88. I hope that's what would happen...

but I think that's a really pretty picture. The financial system in the 80s was not in near as much trouble as it was now. The bad banks that closed weren't collasal titans. The banks that were about to fail before government inteverntion here accounted for a large percentage of total bank assets in the US. In other words, we have a very top-heavy banking system. Just take a look at this chart of the top 50 banks in the US as of 12/31/2008 (before the financial crisis)

http://www.ffiec.gov/nicpubweb/nicweb/Top50form.aspx

If those had failed, you would have seen a lot of people out on the streets, the vast majority middle or lower class, and there would be chaos. The smaller banks would have been run on no matter their solvency and the whole financial industry could have folded. Those auto workers would be in worse shape than they are now.


Raking and burning these weeds would have been scrapping our entire financial system. Without which, there are no loans and our economy would taken a nosedive.

[amandabeech]

152. Do you remember when your town thrived?

just asking.

[MellowDem]

164. No...

I'm too young to remember. It started going downhill a couple decades ago.

[cap]

165. steel is highly dependent on the auto industry...

your town is adversely impacted by the downturn in BOTH the housing and auto industry. If domestic auto industry in this country goes belly up, the auto suppliers (customers of your steel mills) will not be absorbed by Toyota, et al. You won't have the slack in housing industry to absorb the excess capacity. Couple this with the financial crisis, your steel mills can't borrow to retool to do something else (whatever that may be). Your mills are being hit with a triple whammy.

[MellowDem]

168. It won't make much of a difference anymore...

things have been bad for a while now and the town no longer is just dependant on the steel mill. We had a new regional hospital that was built nearby and that has helped diversify the economy a bit. The steel mill doesn't provide nearly the level of jobs that it used to. I understand that communities will be hurt, even my community, by the hemmoraging of the auto industry. But the current state of the auto industry is already hurting us. The auto industry giants will have to go through major cuts and changes due to new demand and globalization that have been put off for far too long. We are just putting off the pain at the expense of the taxpayer by continuing to subsidize large parts of the auto industry. I'd rather have it sooner than letting it grow larger and larger later. That's what we've been doing fo the past decade.

Once it is over, it is over. The sooner some of the auto industry fails, the sooner it can be built back up. I really believe there is a lot of opportunity in the auto industry, especially with the push to transition cars to other forms of energy. Many of these same companies are standing in the way of that transition and are now a little late to the party. It may hurt my community some in the short term, but it's nothing compared to the cost it has already had on my community over the past couple of decades and in the long term.

I'm trying to look at this holistically, rather than how it will just hurt me personally or my community in the here and now.

[amandabeech]

123. Obama does not need much of the Midwest anymore. He has the South and the West.

He will always have Illinois, but he doesn't care about those loser states so long as he can get the EV's of Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado, Florida and all the rest.

Those places are more fashionable and unions aren't welcome.

That's the New Democrat's majority for ya.

[blue_onyx]

85. That's a bunch of BS

First, if the US auto industry fails, that means 3.5 jobs. If you don't think that will push the country's economy into a depression, then you aren't being realistic.


"If some companies in the auto industry fail, then there will be localized suffering..."

As someone from Michigan, I so appreciate your concern....apparently it's ok if our state is destroyed economically. Very considerate of you :eyes:


I can't understand the double standard Obama has toward the auto industry. Furthermore, I can't understand how so many "progressives" on DU will do or say ANYTHING to agree with Obama.

[MellowDem]

91. I do have concern..

but I'm trying to put things in perspective. 3.5 million jobs is NOTHING compared to what would happen if the financial markets failed. For one, the auto industries would collapse anyways and those 3.5 million jobs would be gone along with a lot of other jobs. Whether this will push us into a depression or not, I'm not sure. I don't think the auto industry will collapse though. Ford is surviving and GM and Chrysler will be sold off to other companies rather than collapsing. So 3.5 million jobs would not be lost. There still would be a lot of cuts though.

I live in an old run down steel town in Ohio. It was entirely dependant on one insdustry. This town has been suffering for decades. Any town or region that is so utterly reliant on the auto industry will indeed be hit the hardest, that's just the facts, not something I consider "ok".

As it is, the auto industry has helped ensure that climate change and global warming caused by cars continued uabated for a good 40 years when we first could have done something about it in the 70s. The amount of protecionism and exceptionalism that the auto industry has enjoyed over the years has led to a situation that has hurt this nation as a whole far more than those at the top of the auto industry responsible can ever be paid back. They kept us addicted to oil and killed public transportation. It's unfortunate that the blameless workers will have to suffer, but in the long run it will be better for all of us, including the auto workers. Auto workers have had it much better than the rest of the nation for a while now, and all at the expense of the nation. You can't put the well-being of a politically organized few over that of the many. That's what we have been doing for decades with the auto industry, the farm industry, Cuban policy, etc. It's disgusting and needs to stop. Would you rather we protect the auto industry at the expense of America and the world as a whole? Are we all beholden to them because of their political organization? Apparently so.

[blue_onyx]

93. Ok...

"auto industry has helped ensure that climate change and global warming caused by cars continued uabated for a good 40 years when we first could have done something about it in the 70s."

Blame the government, not the companies. Companies care about one thing and one thing only...making money. I can't understand why people think companies have a social conscious. Of course the auto companies aren't going to do what's in the best interest of environment...it costs more to do that. It's the failure of our government to have stricter environmental laws that allowed global warming to continue unabated.

"The amount of protecionism and exceptionalism that the auto industry has enjoyed over the years has led to a situation that has hurt this nation as a whole..."

You're not serious, are you? Japan protects their companies. I read, I think in the Detroit Free Press, that it costs $60,000 to buy a $25,000 Ford Mustang in Japan because of their import taxes. On top of that, they don't allow our companies to build on their land. South Korea limits US auto companies to sell 4,000 vehicles in their country.

"Would you rather we protect the auto industry at the expense of America and the world as a whole?"

Michigan has been overlooked for decades. Unless something effects California or New York, people don't give a damn. Helping the auto industry will benefit the entire country since every state has some auto related jobs. I am not welling to allow my state to be destroyed in order to save the country some money. Why the hell should care about the national economy if the economy in my state will be destroyed for the the next decade or more? If you, being from Ohio, are willing to sit by while other areas (and industries) get government attention/assistance to your detriment, then that's on you. I will stand up and fight for my state...whether I'm fighting Bush or Obama.

[MellowDem]

102. In response

"Blame the government, not the companies. Companies care about one thing and one thing only...making money. I can't understand why people think companies have a social conscious. Of course the auto companies aren't going to do what's in the best interest of environment...it costs more to do that. It's the failure of our government to have stricter environmental laws that allowed global warming to continue unabated."

I blame both. The companies after all lobbied the government and the union used their votes. I guess we shouldn't blame the banks then for what they did, after all, it was all about making money in the short term, screw the long term? Good companies are about making money now and in the future. They have foresight.

"You're not serious, are you? Japan protects their companies. I read, I think in the Detroit Free Press, that it costs $60,000 to buy a $25,000 Ford Mustang in Japan because of their import taxes. On top of that, they don't allow our companies to build on their land. South Korea limits US auto companies to sell 4,000 vehicles in their country."

Oh, I'm very serious. The amount of corruption and the intertwined nature of government and business in Japan and Korea are NOT models to be following. Sure, Japan and Korea do that, but guess who it hurts (besides American exporters), the Japanese and Korean people!

"Michigan has been overlooked for decades. Unless something effects California or New York, people don't give a damn. Helping the auto industry will benefit the entire country since every state has some auto related jobs. I am not welling to allow my state to be destroyed in order to save the country some money. Why the hell should care about the national economy if the economy in my state will be destroyed for the the next decade or more? If you, being from Ohio, are willing to sit by while other areas (and industries) get government attention/assistance to your detriment, then that's on you. I will stand up and fight for my state...whether I'm fighting Bush or Obama."

Michigan will not be destroyed. I really think the auto indusry will survive, but there will be some cuts at first, and things will have to change. Here is an excellent (and relevant) article posted at 538.com today.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

The auto industry has gotten major bailouts compared to other individual industries. The financial system is what keeps industries afloat, hence why Obama is willing to throw as much money as possible at them to keep them from collapsing. I really don't think the auto industry will collapse, but the way they did things will.

[blue_onyx]

131. No, the banks and auto companies to deserve blame too

It was a bad financial decision to not focus on hybrids and fuel efficiency. But I blame the government more because it's their job to regulate business. I view companies as "children" and government as the "adults". Children sometimes misbehave and it's the parent's job to bring them in line. GM ignored environmental and energy issues that would effect them economically....but the government failed their job to forced the "children" to do the right thing. GM is paying the price but where are the consequences for the government.


"Michigan will not be destroyed."

We're already at 12% unemployment which is probably double that in reality. Even if the companies only go into Chapter 11, this will devastate our economy. We'll see the "offical" unemployment rate reach 20%. Michigan will recover but it will take long time.


"The financial system is what keeps industries afloat, hence why Obama is willing to throw as much money as possible at them to keep them from collapsing"

BS. That's what we keep being told but the financial institutions are not doing what they're suppose to with the money. They're not lending which is a big part of why GM/Chrysler need government money. Like I said in a previous post, I believe some will support Obama regardless of what he does and whether it's in their best interest. I hope Obama knows what he is doing because he's gambling his re-election on it. It would be horrible if we get stuck with President Palin because of Obama's preference for Wall Street.

[amandabeech]

119. Losing our manufacturing base may look good to you now,

but the world is often a turbulent place. You're betting on peace forever in every place that manufactures what we need. This isn't just about autos, its about U.S. manufacturing in its miniscule entirety.

World peace forever is dream that has never come true.

If we have problems with China, or China has internal problems, for only one example, you must believe that we can get everything we need from them, including clean underwear, toothbrushes and the ingredients that go into toothpaste, despite any and all disruption. Or you think that we can automatically buy it somewhere else with no problems. I think you're wrong.

Here's another way to look at it. Our industrial production has been outsourced to Mexico. Mexico's current drug problems get completely out of hand so that Mexico becomes a failed state in which no U.S. company wants to do business. The way things operate today, I wouldn't be suprised if our military would be asked to go into Mexico to put down the revolt so that U.S. industry can continue to operate. I don't want to see that, and think that we might be being softened up for just that right now. I guess that you don't see any problem.

Or the U.S. does something in one country (say in the Middle East) that so pisses off the Chinese and others off that they will refuse to sell to us even though it will cost them lots of money. Boycots have been known to happen. Just ask Israel. I guess you don't think that could ever happen.

People have called me everything from a toxic pessimist to a Debby Downer, but most of them have apologized and told me that I was right.

Can put your name down for an apology later?

[sarcasmo]

133. Watch how much Wall Street tumbles when the auto industry tumbles.

I don't think Obama has a clue what this is going to do to middle America.

[Deja Q]

214. A thoughtful response; thank you.

Plus, it's the execs that ultimately get to tell the workers what to do. A worker that cites ideas or initiative may or may not be promoted or applauded... or in some cases tolerated.

Plus the quality of the components; if "all these workers do for $70/hr is screw in bolts", the parts they're bolting -- where do those parts come from?

If health care is the big gripe about costs, why not resolve that problem? Like a $20 aspirin capsule in a hospital when we can buy a crate of aspirin for the same friggin' price. Or insurance. Want overpriced? Insurance is the root problem here.

[Hubert Flottz]

22. Maybe it's because those "Overpaid Auto Workers" didn't

contribute as much money to the politicians in Washington as the CEOs and bonus boys on Wall Street did.

I think there is a war against the middle class being waged as I type. The only time the politicians and their real bosses have any use for working class Americans is at election time, tax time, work time at some unsafe scab job site where you never get a raise and the harder you work the more benefits you lose and when it's time to send your kids off to die in another rich man's war.

When the working people in America get tired enough of the Bullshit to sit down on their collective asses for about a month like the people did in Poland a few years ago the politicians might hear us again instead of the 1% with all the campaign cash to hand out, in exchange for more multi-trillion dollar government handouts.

[pattmarty]

33. Here, here!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[madrchsod]

24. nothing ever changes but the name on the door

either a democratic or republican when they get a taste of power the working class no longer matters. oh well,the crumbs from the table is better than starving.

[livefreest]

29. don't despair, keep calling your U.S. senators and house reps.

there are many good people in this administration, who have worked hard for the working folks despite achieving power and privilege: starting with Pres Obama and Labor secretary Hilda Solis.

[madrchsod]

32. mine are durbin,foster,and burris---

i do have hope with solis at labor. the big union election bill is coming up and we`ll see where the democrats stand for the working class

[livefreest]

174. pressure them. thats how you "help" them.

call each one of them once a week. minimum.

[dashrif]

59. oversight

It will not help congress gave up oversight in the first bailout read section 8 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/20/AR2008092002376_pf.html

First bailout is 8.5 trillion http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/26/MNVN14C8QR.DTL

The bad ting about the first bailout was all the reports say Obama was instramentel in seting it up. So if the first and sencond bail out all go to shit and it look like it will he will be the fallguy sad to say. http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/1008/Dem_leaders_dishing_Obama_credit_on_bailout.html

[livefreest]

175. not entirely true. don't forget all the repubs who voted for the bill

Henry Paulson in fact brought a bill demanding congress sing on or the economy will melt.

[livefreest]

25. i think these workers are reacting too hastily.

This far Pres Obama has delivered on many progressive legislation. Anywhere you see an auto worker, or any blue-collar worker, give them hope by reminding them that Sec of Labor is Hilda Solis. Very pro-labor. Also tell them to call their representatives and senators to support card-check legislation.

[LiberalFighter]

45. It doesn't do any good to have a pro labor Secretary of Labor if there aren't good paying jobs or

even jobs.

But the card check is important.

[livefreest]

176. if EFCA is passed i have hope that even working at walmart

might become a job that earns a living. call your representatives in congress. minimum once a week.(sorry i have to repeat this)

[Bandit]

27. Here is the deal with me, I will never vote Republican..Never

But because of stuff like this I will just not vote anymore.. This is the sort of action I have spent my like railing against.. And it takes a Democrat to do it..I can not and will not support a Party that works to undermine the American People and reward the robber class.

[pattmarty]

34. Looks like a good time to vote Green Party.

[Fluffdaddy]

38. What the HELL has the Green Party ever won?

You might as well vote for that asshole Nader

[pattmarty]

48. Asshole Nader?????? You might want to re-think that stupid.........

.......fucking remark. AND, if it looks like Obama may not quite be the saviour some thought him to be, where the fuck are you gonna go? If Obama buckles to corporate pressure which it is looking like every day, then it looks like a good time for supporting a third party. Do you know any "Greens" or looked at their general platform? Let's face it man, we're (all the people out there that "think" like we do) his base, and without "us" he ain't gonna win shit in 2012 or 2010 for that matter.

[amandabeech]

124. Nader wouldn't be taking shit from the banksters.

Obama needs to channel Nader more and the conservatives less about now.

[livefreest]

177. keep hope!

You have a fantastic opportunity with this administration. This change will happen over the long haul. Don't skip any election local or national for the next 8 years at least. PLEASE! do you promise? seriously!

[liberalsince1968]

209. I'm starting to feel the same way. That's why I call myself a LIBERAL...NOT a dem anymore.

[Fluffdaddy]

35. I'm not willing to spend anymore of my Tax Money on UAW and Big Auto

The UAW and GM brass are going to have to suck it up

The Big O has done the right thing

[pattmarty]

53. Then you (and the DLC AND blue dog(shit)s) can continue to throw...........

...........trillions to your buddies on Wall st and not give a pittance (what's the percentage that would go to Automakers compared to Wall st?) to the auto industry.


Edit to add: And you and your buddies at the DLC and the Blue dogshits NEED US, more than we need you and your greedy types. REMEMBER THAT!!!

[Fluffdaddy]

64. We need the banks............We don't "Need" GM.

btw: You need to get on your knees and thank the DLC, They/We are the reason we won back both houses.

[pattmarty]

65. YOU need the banks, for your goddamn funding!!!!

[pattmarty]

76. Oh, fucking puhleeze!!!!! You want the reason? Two fucking words.........

............HOWARD DEAN.

[Occulus]

86. Seeing your avatar image on this forum is like going to an all-gay board and seeing a

Log Cabin Republican avatar.

You.... you do know that, right?

[amandabeech]

125. We need our own manufacturing base.

The DLC and the Repukes seem to think that the world will always give us what we demand.

History says otherwise.

Check my post above and kiss my ass.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

155. People like you are the reason Democrats will lose both houses.

You won't see us on our knees. The same can't be said for Barack's cultist worshipers.

[lonestarnot]

161. You are so full of crap they could use you for a shit sack in Fargo.

:eyes:

[Summermoondancer]

72. We shouldn´t be throwing money at either of them

We should let them work it out on their own...why should those of us who don´t have cushy jobs bail them out? They and Wall Street have shown they are not worth spit.

[INdemo]

57. For those whose job is tied directly or indirectly to the auto industry would

not agree.

[Fluffdaddy]

62. Times are hard. Not everybody is going to be happy.

Better times will come............if we can make thur these

[Brucie Kibbutz]

156. Straight from the RNC playbook.

:eyes:

[LiberalFighter]

58. Don't be putting the blame on the UAW.

They have made sacrifices even before this crisis emerged. Would you be willing to start working at half the wages of the workers already there? As part of the loan agreement the UAW agreed to a 25% cut in wages. Would you be willing to have your wages cut 25%?

And then there hasn't been anything about management taking a cut in wages. They are the ones that make the business decisions not the union. They are the ones that hire and fire employees. Not the union.

The workers won't be the only ones suffering. Local and state government will be suffering when those workers are losing wages. That $7 an hour in lost wages amounts to over $43 million in taxable wages. The local community will lose too. Besides their taxes going up to make up the difference charities will suffer when those workers have less to contribute. Those autoworkers are generally the number one group contributing on a regular basis to the likes of United Way, March of Dimes, and other charities.

[Fluffdaddy]

61. Yes the UAW have made sacrifices..............They are going to have to make more

A job that pays you less then you are use too, is better then no job at all. Ask the 8.1% that have no job at all.

[LiberalFighter]

63. NOT until you take a 25% cut in your wages first!!

[Fluffdaddy]

67. My local 22 contract is ending in July. I'm going to take a hit, but I will have a job

That's the way you have to look at it. Times will get better

[olegramps]

77. You are full of it. Take 25% of your wages and contribute it to the unemployed.

[Fluffdaddy]

107. 75% of a job is better then 100% of ........NO JOB

[Hannah Bell]

207. You're saying the only possible choice is 75% of a job v. 0%?

It isn't.

But that's the choice capital would like to impose on us.

[BrightKnight]

121. I would link any UAW concessions to profitability.

If profitability increases then compensation and benefits automatically increase.

I would also have the government invest a ton of money in university applied engineering programs to assure that American car engineering is second to none. I would make some of these programs ITAR restricted. A few black budget fuel efficient military transport projects wouldn't hurt anything.

[olegramps]

73. What tax money did you spend on the auto workers?

[BrightKnight]

108. Uncle Sam has been paying GM's operating costs and bills. - n/t

[amandabeech]

115. I'm not willing to spend anymore of my Tax Money on you and your employer.

If you want a political party, start your own, don't expect to take over mine.

[Mari333]

40. same old shit . there arent 2 parties there is only one

the one who is owned by corporations and moneyed interests. people, you are on your own.

[paparush]

96. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

[mod mom]

41. Those w the most power reap the most benefit. It sucks!

[JPZenger]

46. They needed corporate bondholders to agree to cut their payments

It seems like this current effort by the Obama administration is really designed to force the corporate bondholders to accept a cut in their bond payments. Without that cut, GM and Chrysler will continue to be a bottomless pit of tax dollars that can never be repaid. They have to put bankruptcy back on the table to force the bondholders to "take a haircut."

[Clear Blue Sky]

47. Agree...

If the Feds can fire the CEO, they can declare union contracts null and void as well. As they did with AIG.

[apnu]

52. AIG was unionized? And Obama nulled the union?

When was that? Was I sleeping?

[Clear Blue Sky]

84. I didn't say anything about AIG being unionized.

AIG had their bonuses in place as a contract, agreed to and signed off on by the Pres and Congress. What's to keep them from slashing retiree benefits for autoworkers as they "reorganize" GM?

[TomClash]

54. The auto workers are getting shafted

Why not buy both companies for peanuts and run them as green, energy efficient auto producers?

[apnu]

78. The problem is these two companies bolted into the gas-guzzler SUV market

and lost the ability to make light, green, efficient cars. Bush had a lot to do with that, remember those tax incentives for SUVs?

Retooling a production line can't happen over night. Plus the Big Three has to figure out how to make light, efficient cars again. Engineering that takes a lot of time and resources that these companies, clearly, no longer have.

But the worker gets the shaft, yes. Because the worker is dependent on management and engineering to provide them with a template of things to create. If management of these companies fail, then the workers get screwed. Its the same for me, at a private company where I'm not in a union. If my boss (the President of the company) fails, then I'm out of a job. No matter how good of a job I do, or how hard I work. I'm fucked because he screwed up. And let's face facts here: the CEOs of the Big Three have failed their companies.

I think the Obama's "firing" of Wagoner, and telling GM to file for bankruptcy is his way of doing what you suggested w/out government ownership of the industry. Obama does not want to own the auto industry and millions of Americans don't want that either. Does the auto worker want to be a government employee? If they think they have baggage now, it will be much worse if the government owns these companies.

[blue_onyx]

82. GM does make efficient vehicles!!!!!

Stop repeat this BS. The Malibu gets better gas mileage than the Camry or the Accord. BTW, Toyota and Honda sell gas guzzlers too.

[TomClash]

89. This is symptomatic of a deeper problem

The guys who finance keep their well-paid jobs and the guys who actually make something get laid off. We need to make products, otherwise there is nothing to finance.

I agree Bush-Cheney bears much of the blame, but the public won't tolerate that line of reasoning forever.

I'd rather be a government employee than be unemployed waiting for the next WalMart job with several thousand of my unemployed brethren.

Wall Street had a lot of layoffs but most companies are still in business and most people are still working. It is clearly unfair to shower Wall Street with trillions while pretty much dumping these guys.

[apnu]

104. GM isn't out of business. not by a long shot.

Bankruptcy doesn't mean they're going to sell everything and shutter plants. Bankruptcy actually helps companies get out from under heavy debt and get back to profitability.

[amandabeech]

128. Get back to me in a couple of years.

Bankruptcy here will probably drive off so many buyers that GM will go Chapter 7 before the economy rebounds.

Nobody's really going to even know about any gov. backed guarantee. And Obama is sending in investment bankers to show GM how to run it's operations. Those guys killed many companies when they took them over as LBOs back in the '80s. It won't take them long to kill GM.

[amandabeech]

126. Very few people were buying small, fuel efficient vehicles until the price of oil

was manipulated up to $150.00.

Why do you think that Toyota and Honda got into the SUV and Light Truck business so heavily?

The market for small vehicles won't return to 1980s levels until gas prices go up to $4.00 and stay there unless the government restricts automakers from making many larger vehicles. The price of larger, used vehicles would then go through the roof.

[DainBramaged]

68. Maybe the Wall Street fucks will hire us to mow their lawns.....

[olegramps]

69. Single payer health insurance would go far in helping Detroit.

Why the hell in President Obama opposing single payer health insurance that would do wonders for making American products more affordable. If he forces GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy who is going to pick up all those retirees health insurance and pensions. Sorry, but my faith in President Obama is rapidly fading.

[amandabeech]

127. You make an excellent point.

Universal health care will help ALL American companies who compete with companies who make their products or offer their services in countries where health care is not the responsibility of the employer.

Why do you think that the Japanese automakers like to put plants in Canada?

Combining Obama's actions with GM and his seeming disinterest in single payer just doesn't compute for me. If it were coming from a Republican, I could see it, but not for any Dem I know.

[Summermoondancer]

71. Auto deserved it to a point

why should they be bailed out? Why should Wall Street be bailed out? I like Obama but he should let them sink or swim...we are already in a mess anyway.

Maybe they would become more resourceful if we did this. I know that sounds harsh but there are autoworkers out there with very little education and they make as much as doctors do...that is ridiculous.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

158. "Maybe they would become more resourceful"?

Like learning how to build shanty towns and eat out of garbage cans?

You were right. Your comments were harsh. Makes you sound just like Ronald Reagan.

[Summermoondancer]

170. Nope, a business doesn´t become successful by

wasteful spending anymore than a government can survive in that fashion. They pay outrageous amounts of salaries to the people who work for them while the rest of the population starves...what exactly have they done to rebuild Detroit? Certain parts of Detroit look worse than any shanty town in a third world you could find...maybe they should have learned a few things about caring for the population around them.
Look at other automakers in the US...Toyota, BMW, Nissan...none are asking for huge bailouts...the auto makers big three want to charge me more taxes so they can survive when I am barely making it on my own? Where is my handout? We had to make serious cuts that we hard decisions when fuel prices skyrocketed...now you want me to feel pity? Sorry, but I don´t. Do they give you anything in exchange? Are they going to lower the price on their vehicles? hmm what exactly is in it for us? Detroit goes belly up? Well sorry, but that happened a long time ago...they outsourced most of their jobs to Mexico, China, and Canada...

[Brucie Kibbutz]

171. You want them to care for the population around them

by paying their workers less. "Do they give up anything in exchange"? Here is your answer: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS317&q=UAW+accepts+concessions&btnG=Search

I never thought I'd see someone promoting Reaganomics on this forum.

[Summermoondancer]

187. Not Reaganomics it is common sense

the people around them lost everything during the riots that occurred...the industry was so powerful that Detroit became known as the motor city...what did they do to help rebuild Detroit? Nothing. Why should everyone come to their rescue now? They have exported more jobs than almost any other industry and they have done nothing to help their own employees or the towns that they exist in.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

189. You try to sound concerned that they export jobs

and then advocate for all of the jobs that are still here be eliminated. You're really not very good at this are you, Ronald?

You want to know why Detroit turned into such a shithole? Economic disparity caused by the same economic policies you are promoting. You should be ashamed for being gullible enough to believe this corporatist, Reaganite propaganda you are offering as an argument.

"Uneducated", undeserving (in your eyes) GM line workers making as much as doctors? GTFO of here with that Fox "News" shit. :eyes:

[Summermoondancer]

190. No, you are advocating giving away money from the middle class to the rich

how screwed up is that? I own a small business and you want to tax me to give a multi billionaire more money so he can stay in business..now how is that promoting economic health? Sorry, I don´t feel sorry for them..I should not have to work harder to keep them in business and force myself out of business in the process..I pay quite enough tax thank you...pay more than most and quite frankly I am fed up with it. It might be different if small business were getting that same attention, but you want to take from me...a small employer and tell me to tough it out while you think that you can save something that should not be saved in the first place. Why? so the CEO can give himself a raise and still export jobs to Canada and Mexico?

[Brucie Kibbutz]

192. It's not about Wagoner and you refuse to admit it.

This isn't about Obama forcing out Wagoner. Wagoner should have been shitcanned years ago so I'm glad of the fact somebody finally forced him out. The issue that people are pissed about is the two faced way he's going about dealing with Wall Street and Detroit. His decisions don't just affect GM's CEO. He's also holding GM labor, people who didn't cause their company to fail, responsible for the failures of management and then rewarding Wall Street for their failures.

Your words sound just like every wingnut that calls in to rant on Rush Limbaugh's show.

"I own a small busines". "I pay more tax than most and I'm fed up with it". "You want to take from me".

If that's the way you feel, fine. If you really think it's no big deal to let the few good paying union jobs that we have left be eliminated, go vote for Republicans then. I'm sure they'll take good care of you. :sarcasm:

[Summermoondancer]

193. I actually don´t think either party will take care of me...

either way they send fuel prices through the roof essentially nearly bankrupting us...and then they put salt in those wounds by adding a new mileage tax or something to that effect...yeah wonderful...there are plenty of union jobs...look at Toyota, Nissan, ect...they are all in the US..not Japan...they hire and they are not asking for bailouts...that tells me something.
I didn´t get a bailout for my business and personally I don´t think anyone, most certainly not billion dollar companies or banks should get bailouts. Unless you are going to help the little folks why are you helping the big folks? Trucking companies are going bankrupt left and right yet I don´t see you advocating their bailouts and they do essentially keep America running.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

195. That was a mistake on my part

because you are right that neither party gives a shit so I'm not even sure why I only mentioned Republicans.

FWIW, trucking companies were going bankrupt left and right even during the best of economic times. That industry is such a clusterfuck, I'm not sure any of them could even be helped. They have a turnover rate that exceeds 100% for a reason. IMO, if they want government money then they need to accept a reasonable amount of regulation. Right now, it's practically "anything goes" and they certainly take advantage of it at the expense of many of their drivers.

[Summermoondancer]

196. We are owners of a small trucking company and

we have never taken advantage of our drivers. Of course we don´t have much of a turnover rate either, but we have been in business for about 15 years. We have been fine for the most part financially...we are small though. What killed me is when fuel prices skyrocketed I had to lay off two and I concidered them friends...I gave them a notice so that they could find another job and not be without one suddenly. We don´t have a lot of debt but fuel costs make up over half of our overhead...that is a problem.

[amandabeech]

199. Auto makers incorporated outside the U.S. are asking their own governments

for bailouts. Toyota is leading the pack.

[w4rma]

81. Obama has pissed me off with this double standard. (nt)

[Vidar]

87. The workers are right & Obama appears more & more to be in the

Wall Street pirates' pocket.

[Deja Q]

224. "appears"

I'm still going to give him the benefit of the doubt and looking for rationale. Some of it I think I understand, but not all.

But, yeah, his popularity is going to plummet, big-time, if the trend of supporting crooks, thieves, and fraudsters continues. I don't see any way around that.

[progressoid]

95. Hey hey. No posting anti-Obama shit.

[Egnever]

97. The sheeple are so easily hearded.

this weeks obama outrage is as stupid as last weeks yet so many here fall for it.

[Divine Discontent]

117. but Egnever, this is not so quickly ignored. The president has came down hard on asking the workers

to take cuts to their pay, their benefits, their pensions (which may not even pay), and one of their CEO's has been forced down, meanwhile things are PEACHY KEEN over at wall street world where they're giddy with billions in taxpayer gold slathered all over their bodies and cheering on the new president. This is how it appears to middle blue collar America - these ARE the people that helped him win easily against McSame - and this act of his seems a tad similar to what a rethug would have done. I have NO problem if he hits the financial sector as much as he's done to the people who make a lot less than the avg wall streeter or bank employee.

[Egnever]

143. I think your cenario is wildly off base

Where does the idea come from that Obama is trying to force down wages? The CEO was forced out after never turning a profit for his company in his entire term. Should we be keeping him on?

The reality is is that GM is in real danger of dissapearing something Obama definately does not want to see happen and he is taking the steps necesary to force them to come up with a reasonable plan going forward or forcing them into bankruptcy to start them on a fresh footing with government funds not being used to pay off old creditors.

But I will agree the Idea the media is trying to sell is that Obama is a Union busting wall street flunky when that couldnt be further from the truth.

The media is lazy they dont check their facts till someone shoves them under their noses and even then htye have a really hard time admiting that the last ten stories they ran were absolute horse dooky. Why all of a sudden people are so willing to just buy into every single negative argument they spew is just beyond me.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

160. You can deny it just like all the other bad decisions.

He is fucking up big time on this one.

[Deja Q]

225. Grantd, I've fallen for some of it and a DUer corrected me on one article...

whose headline was totally irrelevant to the content of the article. One big "duh" for me.

That's why I'm still open-minded and supportive of our President. I still am worried about having a future, aspirations, and all that, but it's also been less than 3 months since he was elected. There's enough supposition to support why he is propping up the banks.

Of course, if he continues to merely say "I'm ashamed of you bankers!" then handing out more money will I truly begin to worry; especially as bankers seem to be tangential to the core problems - which are costs and wages. (hospital and insurance costs, which I've mentioned, and how wages have not kept up for decades - which is why many boomers are able to have lived a wonderful life and retire while that is not looking like the case for most people currently 55 and younger.)

[Steerpike]

98. When I hear President Obama speak...

I hear "supply side" economics. We "have to" prop up the filthy rich, becouse without them we will all perish.

[Deja Q]

226. We also have to prop up the middle class, as they help make the rich filthy.

I'd rather do it by having good wages and contributing back than in the form of free tax giveaways.

[kiranon]

101. Workers are paying the price for many years of bad management.

The handwriting was on the wall many years ago and GM/Chrysler ignored it to the detriment of their workers. But, it doesn't do the economy any good to make more cars that will not sell or pay wages and bonuses to workers and management that companies cannot afford. Whether or not President Obama did anything, there would be mass layoffs at the auto companies. My guess is the CEO at GM really offered two plans that did not do the job or even close to it and so he is history. It would be far better to change the management at GM and retrain the workers to do other types of work. I run into former bank employees everywhere I go. One of them is working at a cell phone booth at warehouse store and others are all over. Just ask new employees where you shop, travel and go where they used to work. Bank workers didn't get any retraining and auto workers will. There is no equivalency between banks and GM/Chrysler. The banks will be broken up when the economy stabilizes. Obama inherited a mess and he is trying to fix it. No one could fix the years of problems in less than 100 days. Lives will be disrupted and those who can accept change and learn new skills will be tomorrow's employed. It's very hard on the oldsters (I'm an oldster) and families and the young who are just entering the market. It's hard on everyone. But, it's not President Obama who is to blame for this recession and there is no one easy fix to get us out of it.

[bdamomma]

116. many years of bad management. I do not hold Obama responsible for this matter.

[amandabeech]

130. I hold Obama responsible for what he does, and that includes how he handles companies in trouble.

The auto industries are being handled roughly.

The financial institutions are being handled by their friends with kid gloves.

I guess that's okay with you, but one reason I voted for him was because I thought that he would be able to clean up Bush's mess fairly.

I don't see fairness here, and fairness counts.

[amandabeech]

129. I think that GM should be kept going until the economy gets better, just like you want for banks.

And for the same reason. GM won't have a good opportunity to work a restructuring plan when no one is buying cars, period, from anyone, anywhere. Toyota's begging the Japanese gov. for loads of cash, you know. How is any auto company going to do well in this type of market?

If auto workers are retrained, and I'm not positive that they will be and you won't know until it really happens, what do you propose that they be retrained to do that cannot be outsourced or insourced?

Those jobs that the former bankers went to are low-wage service jobs that can only be in person. That's where the auto workers will end up but they'll mostly have to move into already ailing job market to do it.

Obviously, you don't follow the auto companies, but GM has been trying to restrucure for some time. They haven't been as successful as Ford, which has been able to keep going.

The financial institutions have not well either. Many of them are completely insolvent because the produced and sold or bought assets that any sane person would have seen were toxic if the economy ever had any problem. The financial institutions stupidly refused to analyze these things for anything other than the sunniest of economic times because they were and are greedy beyond words. Their mess will be cleaned up, but it will take 10s or 100s of times more dollars everywhere around the world to clean it up, and we taxpayers here will bear the bulk of the burden because the current administration refuses to demand that the holders of these poisonous bank products and the bondholders of the financial institutions take a haircut similar to those of GM.

Furthermore, it appears that the financial institutions have done nothing constructive with the billions and soon to be trillions that we have given them. They aren't making loans to those with reasonable credit, which is what the country needs. They aren't buying commercial paper, which funds more operations of large companies than loans. Instead, they are overpaying themselves, doing ridiculous mergers and going on lavish vacations. They also refuse to let our representatives in government know what they are doing, let alone come up with a plan to get themselves back to health. They expect us to just continue to throw them money. Also, these people knew about this problem and didn't do a thing, unlike GM which at least has been trying.

Where's your outrage about these criminals? Why do you think that deserve first class treatment?

[mvd]

135. Very well said

What kind of restructuring would you favor for the auto companies? Or would you just bail them out? I have economic training, but unfortunately, I forget a lot of it. I went more into computers.

One difference here is I think Bush gave away the farm to Wall Street before he left office. I'm not sure Obama would have rushed that vote.

[amandabeech]

137. I have no experience in manufacturing, so the first thing that i would do

is get a few manufacturing experts around me. I would be particularly interested in what Lee Iacocca and his crew would say. He brought Chrysler back from ruin once. He must have something to say. I wish Obama would bring in people like that. He seems to be advised only by banking types.

My first instinct would be to try to stabilize things. I do think that getting concessions from the bondholders was a good start, and I would do the same with the financial institutions, obviously.

What I wouldn't do is start with the unions. I might come back to them later, but I wouldn't start with them. They've given back a lot recently, like in the 2007 contract.

Not all GM products are top notch. Ford has made much more progress than GM in that regard. I'd try to find out what Ford did, and if they used outside firms to help, I'd go hire the same folks. I'd focus on quality so that when the economy returns, I'll have a great product waiting for new customers.

I'd cut off Pontiac and GMC Truck because their line isn't much different from other GM lines.

I'd think about using Saturn as the host of GM European cars brought over here. If not, I think that the Euro small cars should be seriously considered.

What I would not do is force profitability on GM any sooner than I would expect it from other troubled employers in this time. I wouldn't want to force more to the unemployment lines than I had to, particularly considering the cost of the unemployed. It's not cheap for the taxpayer when employers fail, you know.

Above all, I'd focus on GM as a key to keeping manufacturing here. You know, lots of people want energy independence because they remember what happened in the '70s when Middle Eastern countries wouldn't sell us any oil. It nearly took the country down.

What would happen if those countries that send us a lot of manufactured products were to cut us off? Those countries could go to war, and need all the manufacturing capacity themselves. Or they could have serious internal problems that disrupted their manufacturing. Or they could have disputes with us over any number of things and show their disproval by holding up exports to us. Right now, we see what it's like to have China jerk our chain because they hold our bonds. What would it be like if they decided to jerk our chain by refusing to send us manufactured products? Or chose to sell to other markets, like South America or Europe? Or they decided to focus on their internal market? I don't understand why the possibility of losing access to manufactured products is any different than losing access to oil. Either one would be a disaster to us.

Accordingly, I would look for ways to help all U.S.-owned and domiciled manufacturers here even if the some people complain. I'd just tell them that I want guaranteed access to sufficient steel and manufacturing for our defense, and so that I don't have to worry about where my next toothbrush is coming from.

As to TARP, I think and then often thought that Congress approved that thing on Bush's word. Bush tried that tactic with the Patriot Act and I thought that he was bluffing again. I also think that Obama made a mistake hiring Geithner, who was right there as Fed governor and knew everything, and did not put in obvious measures, like accountability and transparency. It shows that Geithner is not suited for a cabinet post in this day and age.

[mvd]

138. Thank you for your detailed response

Just as I suspected, there are several options we can try before demanding more from the unions. :hi:

[amandabeech]

139. Thanks for reading it! *smilies* n/t

[Deja Q]

227. Oh, nobody is suggesting President Obama is responsible FOR the recession/depression...

How he ultimately handles it will ultimately become his responsibility. Bush did nothing except help create/exacerbate the problem.

Is President Obama more of the same? Time will tell. It's way too early to tell, but change needs to be swift if there's any hope of rescuing the American economy, which means supporting the middle class and its jobs. I don't see any other way, and if there is a way it'd be nice to know.

[pinniped]

120. It sure appears that way to me.

I haven't heard a bleep about that bonus crap this week. That issue sort of just faded away................

[sarcasmo]

132. I voted for Obama and I have to agree with the workers. How can one demand something from the Union

Worker and not demand the same thing from the Banks and it's workers.

[fascisthunter]

134. if the Union gets Screwed here... the Dems will be SCrewed next Election

don't fuck with the union. When you do, you fuck with the working class, the class that's been given the backseat for way too long. This issue is my litmus test for the Party itself. If the Democrats with a majority along with a Democratic President can't stand up for workers, THEY NEVER WILL!

[MasonJar]

145. The unions worked very hard for Obama; they believed his words

on the campaign trail about change and helping the middle class. So far I see little of it. I do NOT blame these workers for being angry. Firing the GM CEO was one dumb move unless some financial heads roll too. Obama just doesn't get it. He is obviously under the influence of Geithner and Summers, which is bad for the country, because those two surely do not get it.

[INdemo]

146. I think you have it figured out...

Geithner and Summers will have a life after their cabinet jobs and they have to maintain a cushion with Wall St.I dont expect Geithner to stick around very long...if he is there a year from now I will be very surprised.

[Zorra]

147. I'm gonna wait and see on this one. Hopefully there is a workable solution

pending that will be more beneficial than throwing money into an unworkable plan.

Like, maybe, restructuring GM so that it becomes employee owned and operated, and actually produces economical, quality vehicles that are better than the competition.

Obama is a smart guy. I can't see him trashing his union supporters for any reason, unless he is a complete traitor.

[EndElectoral]

150. Unions voted Dem bigtime for years. Wall St. never does. Obama needs to be careful,

[unkachuck]

159. so far....

....Obama has demonstrated all the judgment and ability of 43, but without the chimp brain....

"...the people who put the country on wheels get treated differently than the wizards of Wall Street."

....outside of occasionally making us feel good, what has Obama done for us? Not much, if you're an Auto Worker....

....this is extremely sad and disgusting, we truly need a political party that represents us....

[lonestarnot]

162. Sad, and I'm feeling your pain, but I'm not ready to turn on my President!

[livefreest]

181. keep hope!

change will come over the long haul. wall street is very powerful and has its hold in both parties. However Pres Obama is part of the more progressive side of the democratic party. Remember in primaries, the big heads of the party (no need to name them anymore) were slow to support him.
However change can come if we keep the foot on the accelerator. policies that can change the American society are being wrote right now. call your representatives in congress. all of them at least once a week. it's a lot, i know. but PLEASE try. Remember Obama said "we are the change we've been waiting for". this is not just feel-good words. Obama want and needs noisy liberals.

[natrat]

167. he sure is pretty, and he makes a nice speach

[Marie26]

169. Maybe because Obama's "Auto Task Force" is run by an investment banker?

"The Obama Administration has appointed 56-year-old Wall Street veteran Steven Rattner as the official head of the Presidential Task Force on the Auto Industry. Colloquially still referred to as the “car czar,” Rattner will serve as the official liaison between Treasury Department Secretary Tim Geither and Obama’s 10-person advisory board impaneled to oversee the aggressive restructuring of the auto industry. According to reports, although Rattner will advise “…on a variety of economic and financial matters, will lead the Treasury’s efforts with regard to the automobile sector.”

A former New York Times reporter and current managing partner of a successful hedge fund, although Rattner joins the group with negligible knowledge of the automotive industry itself, his strong political connections are highly valued and are expected to serve him well during his appointment.

http://www.ridelust.com/obama-appoints-steven-rattner-as-head-of-auto-task-force/

Why is a Wall Street exec. w/zero knowledge of the automobile or manufacturing industry in charge of an auto task force? Beats me. Maybe because Wall St. seems to be in charge of every aspect of the Treasury Dept. But it helps explain why the task force is taking a much tougher line w/GM than they would with Wall St.

[amandabeech]

200. He and his wife are big time fundraisers. n/t

[Marie26]

202. Well there you go.

Wall St. supported Obama, so Obama supports Wall St. What I worry about, a little, is if maybe Ohio & Mich. are being treated differently because they *didn't* support Obama in the primaries.

[amandabeech]

203. Maybe. It's clear that we're being written off.

I'm a Michigan native, and my bachelor uncle is a UAW retiree from GM, so Obama's policies have a real effect on me even though I don't live in Michigan anymore. Michigan is still home, though.:hi:

[Marie26]

204. Hey!

Former Buckeye here & Ohio's still "home" to me too. :hi: Pretty much everyone I grew up with either worked for GM or depended indirectly on GM for their own jobs. And I also have family members who still depend on their GM pensions. If GM truly goes under, my hometown (along w/all MI & OH) will probably die as well & that's just too scary to contemplate. And it's too infuriating that the Dems in power just don't seem to care.

[amandabeech]

205. Hi neighbor!

I hope that enough people will see that the Democratic party needs to go back to its roots and serve the interests of working people, not the banksters.

I knew that I was to the left of Obama on economics, but I didn't realize just how left of him I was.

[Deja Q]

229. I know people, Democrats, who made snide comments... until he was the nominee.

Then it was a big 180 on their part.

Comments like "See that shack over there? That's his headquarters". Then he got the primary and it's as if those comments were never made. Hell, even I, an arrogant obstreperous wiener, will admit when I'm wrong.

In short, I don't think it's because Ohio/Mich didn't support Obama during the primaries. That doesn't ring true... As for Wall Street, that makes some sense...

[fujiyama]

201. This is really disappointing

Many of us were rightfully angry at Bush for appointing political hacks for vital positions.

It's sad and telling that no experts in engineering and manufacturing were actually appointed to this commission. Pathetic.

[martymar64]

194. Is this the "hope and change" we voted for?

[ohio2007]

212. UAW has a short memory

2012

[sarcasmo]

198. Kick, back to the top.

[ryanmuegge]

216. Of course. All of the globalists who occupy offices in this country have hostility toward those

who produce physical goods and make good wages.

[Deja Q]

223. I'm sad to say I'm looking forward to the day they lose their jobs. Then they'll understand.

"Suffer the death of thy neighbor". In short, pragmatic empathy.

The Bible has a thing or two to say about what it takes to achieve real peace.

It's regrettable people have to lose their livelihoods.

Oh, not just goods - but services too. Labor should be valued. Not be treated as a cheap commodity. We do value life, right? Republicans claim to - at least from conception to birth...

[sarcasmo]

228. People just don't get it, You are "looking forward to the day they lose their jobs"

Do you not realize that when a auto plant shuts down it is not just that plant that will loose jobs. Think of all the suppliers that will also be out of work, the truck drivers who deliver the freight. It just amazes me how many anti labor people are on this so called Democratic board.

[Deja Q]

230. I was referring to the globalists. Not auto workers.

The auto workers shouldn't have to suffer because of the management. But that happens too.

Yes, I am capable of thinking laterally - even if not consistently. Auto component suppliers, truckers, mechanics... it would be HUGE.

Incidentally, search for more of my posts. You'll find I'm a little more pro-labor than you wish to believe.

[ardvark]

231. He's sticking it to tech workers with H-1b too

Obama administration defends H-1B rule in lawsuit challenging 2008 Bush ruling on visas
By Patrick Thibodeau
Comments(0)Recommended(3)DiggVia @Computerworld - White House says U.S. needs H-1B visas to avoid 'competitive disadvantage'TwitterShareThis
Top Stories

April 3, 2009 (Computerworld) President Barack Obama has so far reversed a number of actions taken by President George W. Bush -- on embryonic stem cell research, species protection and medical research -- but his administration has so far shown no interest in reversing a Bush-approved rule that has drawn the ire of H-1B opponents.

The Bush administration's move to increase the amount of time foreign nationals with engineering, science and other technical degrees can work in the U.S. on student visas from one year to 29 months prompted a lawsuit that was filed last May by the Programmers Guild, the American Engineering Association Inc., Bright Future Jobs, and a number of technology workers.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9131045





White House Promises India: No New H-1B Restrictions -- Unless Unemployment
Gets Worse

Eric Krangel|Mar. 20, 2009, 11:09 AM

larrysummers-surprised_tbi.jpg If you think the H-1B issue has been
controversial in America, in India they're apoplectic.

So when a delegation of Indian CEOs visited the White House yesterday
to discuss economic and trade issues, they brought up the H-1B
controversy.
http://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-promises-india-no-new-h-1b-restrictions-unless-unemployment-gets-worse-2009-3