Thousands flee bomb attacks by US drones

[balantz]

Source: The Sunday Times (UK)

AMERICAN drone attacks on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan are causing a massive humanitarian emergency, Pakistani officials claimed after a new attack yesterday killed 13 people.

- clip -

Kacha Garhi is one of 11 tented camps across Pakistan’s frontier province once used by Afghan refugees and now inhabited by hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis made homeless in their own land.


So far 546,000 have registered as internally displaced people (IDPs) according to figures provided by Rabia Ali, spokesman for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and Maqbool Shah Roghani, administrator for IDPs at the Commission for Afghan Refugees.

- clip -

Jamil Amjad, the commissioner in charge of the refugees, says the government is running short of resources to feed and shelter such large numbers. A fortnight ago two refugees were killed and six injured in clashes with police during protests over shortages of water, food and tents.

- clip -

Pakistani officials say drone attacks have been stepped up since President Barack Obama took office in Washington, killing at least 81 people. A suicide attacker blew himself up inside a paramilitary base in Islamabad, killing six soldiers and wounding five yesterday.


Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6036512.ece

[patrice]

1. The ONLY moral War is one in which ONE freely puts ONE'S OWN blood on the line. nt

[LynnTheDem]

Hey, drones have blood and feelings too, ya know!

This shit's gotta stop. Killing other people's kids is a very bad thing to do.

In every way.

[patrice]

4. I have fucking HAD it!!! They create this SHIT and then WE pay for it with eternal Wars and

financial and moral bankruptcy!

[ohio2007]

5. Pakistani officials say drone attacks have been stepped up since President Barack Obama took office

So do you want your vote back ?

[leftchick]

11. wtf does that mean?

all of the elections in my lifetime have been a lesser of two evils choice. Both parties are completely beholden to corporate/mic interests and fuck us.

[ohio2007]

25. Pakistani officials say drone attacks have been stepped up since President Barack Obama took office

so you want to vote 3rd party in 2012 ?

[patrice]

31. I wish someone would graph out the value sets of the major groups to see where the most overlap is.

Third parties don't seem to be able to organize their way out of a wet paper bag, just my opinion from local experience.

Nobody wants to commit, because they sense the DISTINCT possibility of being double-or-triple-crossed on nearly and dearly held values.

Although the election of President Obama has caused some ripples, at least the status quo offers some sense of being able to calculate the possible effects of issue coalitions.

[ohio2007]

33. Maybe they are actually "FLEEING THE TALIBAN's" glorious rise to power so my question is

where are they "fleeing" to ?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2ee_1214485437

life is good inshallah

[ronnie624]

77. Cryptic nonsense.

That video doesn't convince me that you know anything about the Taliban, and in no manner does it clearly convey your opinion on this topic. I think you sought it out because it reinforces your own status quo political viewpoint.

If you have a point, in order to make it more easily understood, instead of playing charades, you should state it as concisely as possible, posting links to reliable sources of information so that your conclusions can be verified. In this manner, communication with others would be considerably more effective.

[xxqqqzme]

39. There are no 3rd parties in the

US because we have no mechanism for them to be recognized. We are winner take all and if you aren't the winner, you're fucked. Surely the last 8 years taught you that.

If we had a parliamentary system or run-offs or some other means for a 3rd party to get their toe in the door, that would be great. As it is now most voters feel alienated because the religious right controls the rethuglicans and the dlc keeps dragging the Democrats to the right.

[Zodiak]

55. Please stick with the topic at hand

...and refrain from turning this thread into an exercise in identifying dissenters.

Thank you.

[earth mom]

84. I feel exactly the same way! Some fucking hope and change we've got-Not!

:argh:

[zalinda]

2. But, everyone said that Obama

was the peace candidate because he didn't vote for the Iraq war. At least that's what was said in the primaries, now they've changed their mantra.

zalinda

[movonne]

7. Obama always said that he would put more troops in Afghanistan

and that he would go after Pakistan if they were protecting the Taliban....at least that is what I remember...

[PurityOfEssence]

8. Not everyone

To their credit, SOME of his supporters acknowledged their misgivings about his pro-war ways, and somewhat to his credit, he stated fairly early on that he meant to beef up the Afghani stupidity.

Having said all that, though, you are effectively VERY correct: as is his usual MO, he played both sides of the street, wanting to be a peacenik for the peaceniks and a tough guy to dispel myths of Democratic weakness. Many of his zealots merrily played along with this new deception, and many of them change their tunes as time shows him to be a resolutely Clintonian corporatist centrist on other issues, too.

He is destined to piss a lot of people off because of this proclivity to be all things to all people, and the schtick will wear thin. Perhaps the overall balance of his policies will be good and he will be successful, but he's playing a very dangerous game, and he's doing it with our futures.

The fact remains that the Afghani war is without goals, without adequate means to completely subjugate, and premised on stupid assumptions. Stifling the local Islamist crazies isn't going to make the United States safer from terrorist attacks; it's probably going to incite more. It is imbecility of the first order, and cheap grandstanding of the most idiotic kind. Add in the logistical and strategic concerns, and it's ridiculous. Brush up against the tactical realities of doing in small bands of insurgents with an expensive and sluggish ultra-modern military, and it just gets sillier by the second.

[biopowertoday]

17. I was surprized to hear him put

the 17,000 troops in and later say he was studying the situation. later he put the 4,000 troops in and said they were waiting for the Study of the area.

[scarletwoman]

44. What you said! Great post. (nt)

[malaise]

65. Couldn't say it better

I support Obama but I also made it clear from day one that I will never accept his foreign policy or this stupid Afghanistan escalation. This will destroy him.

That said - he is a gazillion times better than any Republican.

[jpak]

10. Obama said time and time again that he would pursue attacks against AQ in Pakistan

this should come as no surprise to anyone - except to the Concern T Crowd....

[bread_and_roses]

29. What's with this constant spew that because "he said it" and we still

voted for him anyway we can't be angry, we can't object? No one is suprised - at least that I notice here. I am angry and sickened, not suprised. I objected to his stance then, I object to his actions now.

The assumptions behind "he said it during the campaign so you can't take objection now" are so ridiculous as to be moronic. First of all, no candidate ever said anything during the campaign that s/he then didn't follow through on?

Second of all, we get no perfect candidates. That I was thrilled Obama won, and have been thrilled at some of his actions since taking office does not mean that I have to agree with/support every damn thing he does. The day I support dismembering and incinerating children because I voted for some candidate will be the day some imaginary space-alien takes over my brain.

And third, an elected official is not a non-returnable sale item that you "have no right" to complain about because you bought it knowing its' design flaws. S/he is a human being, capable of changing his/her mind or being swayed by practical politics, including protest/objection/criticism.

So keep right on mindlessly sneering - I suppose it must give some satisfaction, given the number here who spew the same waste matter.

[glitch]

48. K & R for this post. nt

[ohio2007]

53. watch this post

Class Dismissed in Swat Valley
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/02/22/world/asia/1194838044017/class-dismissed-in-swat-valley.html

lets pretend it's the US drones that have them "fleeing"

ok

[glitch]

69. Reread the above post again and try to understand its larger context.

ok?

[ronnie624]

78. Excellent.

:thumbsup:

[friedgreentomatoes]

73. Those who expressed concern then

were called every possible names and asked to shut up!

[ohio2007]

13. you didn't listen to what he said in the election soundbytes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTwUAAmRuNM&feature=related
oh

he didn't really mean those things?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=708Ld4qwIZo&feature=related

But, everyone said that Obama

was the peace candidate because he didn't vote for the Iraq war. At least that's what was said in the primaries, now they've changed their mantra.

zalinda

[ProgressIn2008]

24. Yes, they were saying things that made them feel comfortable. Fantasies of moral abrogation. nt

[Dr.Phool]

3. Winning hearts and minds, one Hellfire missle at a time.

How many of them will wind up carrying an AK-47, and shooting at American troops?

[ohio2007]

6. The floggings will continue until the hearts and minds lockstep in line

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=504_1238691910



http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=deb_1237498427

How many will throw off the yoke ?

Just some things not meant to be seen

[ronnie624]

79. You don't speak for the women of Afghanistan

any more than the elite commentary of U.S. corporate owned media did when "concern" for women was foisted as one of the myriad excuses for the invasion.

Here is what the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan has to say about U.S. military intervention in Afghanistan:

The day to day expansion of the power of Taliban reflects the real nature of the “war on terror” which has empowered the roots of fundamentalist terrorism more than ever. This is only a showcase to justify the long military presence of the US in our country and in the region. The result of this war has been such a huge failure that even political and military officials of the US and other countries have mentioned it very explicitly several times.

Instead of removing the cancerous lump of the Taliban and their Jehadi brothers from the framework of Afghanistan, the troops of the US and its allies are bombarding wedding and joy parties and showering bullets on our oppressed people, especially women and children. Furthermore, when such crimes are exposed they shamelessly and haughtily deny them, and when the matter is proved, an arrogant “sorry” is offered, which pours more salt on the wounds of the people.

<http://www.rawa.org/events/sevenyear_e.htm>

[Turborama]

80. Are there any RAWA statements made since details of Obama's strategy have been released?

It's now 1 1/2 years after that statement and there's a new president with a new strategy, I'm very interested to hear what they have to say about it.

We all know that Bush fucked everything up in their country beyond all recognition and the promised reconstruction of Afghanistan never took place because he was more concerned about settling scores in Iraq. However, there's a strong chance that this could be all put right seeing as we actually have an intelligent/worldly wise president, at last.

I could be wrong but I seriously doubt they want to be going back to http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4201322772364661561">this.

or this:

http://www.rawa.org/fa-kab.htm

http://www.rawa.org/handcut3.htm

http://www.rawa.org/recent4.htm

[ronnie624]

82. I can't imagine that their position is any different now than last year.

Judging by the content of RAWA's statement, the organization is well aware of the fact that the rise of the Taliban was facilitated by U.S. interventionism going back 30 years. They are probably also aware that U.S. elites have little interest in Afghanistan outside the context of the struggle for geopolitical dominance of the region.

To those who familiarize themselves with the facts of the history of U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, expressions of "concern" for women by U.S. power elites, will never be anything other than a transparent attempt to justify intervention for other reasons.

From the RAWA statement I posted:

RAWA strongly believes that there should be no expectation of either the US or any other country to present us with democracy, peace and prosperity. Our freedom is only achievable at the hands of our people. It is the duty of all the intellectuals, all the democratic forces and progressive and independence-seeking people to rise in a constant and decisive struggle for independence and democracy by taking the support of our wounded people as the independent force, against the presence of the US and its allies and the domination of Jehadi and Taliban criminals. Combating against the armed and alien forces in the country without being loud-mouthed against the Talibi and Jehadi enemies would mean welcoming the misfortunes of fascism and religious mafia. Also, struggling against this enemy without fighting the military presence of the US, its allies and its puppet government would mean falling before foreign agents. The path of the freedom-fighters of our country without doubt, will be very complex, difficult and bloody; but if our demand is to be freed from the chains of the slavery of foreigners and their Talib and Jehadi lackeys, we should not fear trial or death to become triumphant.

On edit, thank you for the links.

[pjt7]

15. Drone's are not cool

Having manless crafts firing weapons in NOT a good idea.

[biopowertoday]

19. The people say that

they flatten villages. I have no idea how big the villages are but the weapons sure seem distructive.



........With the attacks increasing, refugees have little hope of returning home and conditions in the camps will worsen as summer approaches and the temperatures soar.

Many have terrible stories. Baksha Zeb lost everything when his village, Anayat Kalay in Bajaur, was demolished by Pakistani forces. His eight-year-old son is a kidney patient needing dialysis and he has been left with no means to pay.

“Our houses have been flattened, our cattle killed and our farms and crops destroyed,” he complained. “There is not a single structure in my village still standing. There is no way we can go back.”

He sold his taxi to pay for food for his family and treatment for his son but the money has almost run out. “God bestowed me with a son after 15 years of marriage,” he said. “Now I have no job and I don’t know how we will survive.”

Pakistani forces say they have killed 1,500 militants since launching antiTaliban operations in Bajaur in August. Locals who fled claim that only civilians were killed. ....................

[patrice]

32. It will ONLY cause more of the SAME, i.e. it WON'T WORK, but apparently that's NOT the objective.

I'm very sad.

[Igel]

71. It worked quite nicely in the '60s.

Then again, nobody in the US cared at the time, nor do they care now. It doesn't get past the confirmation-bias filter: It doesn't confirm our beliefs, so we ignore it.

Pakistan had a bit of an uprising in Waziristan. People with the tribal name "Mehsud" figured prominently in it. It was principally between two tribes. The Waziris and the Mehsuds? I don't remember who the Waziris were fighting.

The government ignored the fighting briefly and then realized it was escalating. The "unrest" was put down with massive force, and in short order. They had peace for 30 years after it, until unrest from Afghanstan bled over into Waziristan. The cause of the lack of peace now is not the same as it was then--that problem was solved.

This time the Waziris and Mehsuds got into it again, with other tribes. The government twiddled its thumbs and didn't do anything. The problem got worse. Then the Pak government did stupid, ineffectual things. The problem got worse. The Pak government tried to do something effectual and not stupid; it didn't succeed. The problem got worse. They have a very nice track record on how to do it. Of course, ul-Haq wasn't around at the time encouraging the Islamists, and having the ISI encourage the Islamists. When the government both supports and tries to put down an insurgency it's a bit complicated.

They lack the vision and fortitude to do it, the willingness to take a political risk, and the conviction that if they do something for their own good it doesn't matter if it also helps outsiders.

[Gregorian]

9. Sick nightmare.

I actually had a nightmare that was about robot war. A quarter century ago. It has arrived.

It's madness. Plain and simple. It's all based on greed. Even the fear they say we should be feeling due to terrorism is about greed. America screwed with the countries on this planet, and a few people hijacked planes. We're owed a hell of a lot more than that. I say we fold up the military and start spending our cash on helping the world. That is our best defense against terrorism. People don't hate those who treat them well. Duh! It doesn't take a god damned genius.

[Moochy]

30. losing autonomy

the unnatural progression of war

[patrice]

40. Makes me think about the drones that Saddam Hussein was supposed to have had and how

much WEIGHT that possibility may have had in the "Intelligence" scenarios that Congress was spoon fed, "SH is a threat to 'our' investment$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in Wars 'R' US. Gotta take out the 'competition'!"

[bvar22]

12. Nothing good will come from this.

Does anyone remember The Terminator?
Robot drones cruised over the rubble atttacking "insurgents" with cold impunity.

Anyone remember Red Dawn?

Anyone remember The Matrix?


Obama & The Democrats now OWN this WAR.

[ConcernedCanuk]

60. All of the above - and don't forget "Invasion USA"

.
.
.

Anyone that has watched the movie, and studied the attacks in Mumbai India

There are scary parallels





it's coming

[Dangerman]

63. Agreed.

Obama cant think straight since he broke his election promises.

[ShareTheWoods]

14. What's the body count from drones vs suicide bombers?

I suspect the vest/car/truck suicide/murder bomb attacks have the most kills.

[ohio2007]

16. Taliban don't do body counts

alla deals with the #'s and punishes the living through the righteous representitives on earth


...in thy mercy

[truth2power]

18. So, we should kill innocent people because they kill innocent people?

Cute!

[ShareTheWoods]

23. no

Why would you be okay with killing innocent people?

[ohio2007]

36. What makes you think "they" are killing innocent people?

Have they not been tried and found guily in a court of law before the executions ?

At least they don't have their prisoners anguishing for years

[patrice]

41. Tell me!! What the fuck would WE do, if this were happening to us???

[ohio2007]

52. Miscreants "blow up" girls' school at Bannu

BANNU: Some unidentified miscreants have blasted with explosives a girls' school in the town here.

Sources said that the miscreants this morning blasted with a bang a girls’ school located in the vicinity of Miryan police station here by planting explosives, tearing off the building of the school, but no loss of life took place. Police have started investigation into the incident.

http://www.geo.tv/4-5-2009/39109.htm

Didn't they agree to stop blowing up girl schools?

or was this actually CIA troops

yeah

CIA boots on the ground

YES !
that makes more sense then the local fundies flattening village (girl ) schools.

Taliban whip 17yr old girl for misbehavior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG7_R0MFN44&feature=player_embedded

Tell me!! What the fuck would WE do, if this were happening to us???

obviously,you prefer to 'not get involved' so it is a moot point as to what is really going on over there between the "cherry picked' articles of the smaller story


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG7_R0MFN44&feature=player_embedded
sorry you can't handle the truth

[patrice]

54. No one approves of that. The question is how to prevent it.

Our solutions are always just like chemotherapy for various stages of late-term cancer.

It does not appear that all possible solutions are considered, including how NOT to get "cancer" in the first place. Not saying whatever the preventative therapies are would work 100% of the time, but it's true by a damn sight that none of them will ever work if we never try them in the first place and always wait until its waaaaaay after the fact.

[bvar22]

68. I would be ....

...in the hills with a rifle figuring out how to make an IED.

[earth mom]

20. Gawd damn it all to hell! Obama is just another warmonger!

Face it folks, he lied his ass off to get elected just to become another *! :puke:

Guess it's okay when an "articulate" man does this kind of bullshit! NOT! :grr:

[Vidar]

27. It's certainly looking that way, isn't it?

[customerserviceguy]

21. I suppose the alternative

is to bug out, and let them go back to killing each other out of our view. They certainly enjoy flogging and torturing each other.

Maybe they're not ready to rise out of the 7th Century.

[patrice]

59. False dichotomy. THERE COULD BE MORE OPTIONS.

Especially if we were to turn our attention to the things that we can actually do something successfull about, e.g. the fact that we consume and throw away something like 25% of all of the fossil fuel energy on Earth. What effect do you think it might have had on the development of geo-politics if we had never been so dependent upon Oil Kings in the first place? Or were seriously and meaningfully reducing our dependence now?

What attitude do you think we would have toward Afghanistan if it weren't in that region? Why would our attitude be different?

[Fumesucker]

81. How is it "seventh century" for them to kill each other..

And yet it's "twenty first century" for us to kill them?

Especially when the vast majority of them have never done anything to us to warrant us killing them?

[Arrowhead2k1]

22. Why are you people so surprised? Obama said he was going to go harder in Afghanistan numerous times

during his campaign. Try to pick up the ball that Bush dropped on his way to Iraq.

[patrice]

35. I'm not surprised. I heard that. I was initially for Bill Richardson. nt

[bvar22]

66. No surprise here.

I OPPOSED it then.
I OPPOSE it now.

No Military Objective + No Exit Strategy = Another Quagmire

[natrat]

26. so iraq was the oil war and this is the opium/ heroin war-got to keep junkeys high

[Mari333]

28. this is an oil corporate war also, in afghanistan

always, always follow the corporate money


http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/government/fraud/911_attack/news.php?q=1216405258

[Vattel]

34. The article is somewhat misleading.

It references but does not even quote unnamed Pakastanis who say that drone attacks are causing a massive humanitarian crisis because of the number of new refugees in various camps. Is this true? I suspect that the battles between the Pakastani military and the Taliban are the source of the vast majoirty of the new refugees.

(No, I don't condone the drone attacks.)

[patrice]

38. Thanks for this observation! We must not buy this idea that we can somehow make War without

personally making War.

It's called fucking RESPONSIBILITY and it's GOOD for you.

[bushmeister0]

51. Indeed.

"As many as 1m people have fled their homes in the Tribal Areas to escape attacks by the unmanned spy planes as well as bombings by the Pakistani army . . . was demolished by Pakistani forces.

Something tells me the Pakistani army isn't exactly that discriminating when it comes to who they're bombing the crap out of. I'm not saying Drones are a good thing, the thought that these planes are being controlled by a bunch of dorks who last month were playing Grand Theft Auto is very disturbing, but it's not like we're carpet bombing Pakistanis, either.

In this instance, I think the article is a bit over the top with the whole America bad, Europeans good schtick.

[Igel]

72. Yep.

Pak forces kill 1500 over widespread area and flatten villages. Taliban forces kill at least as many as Pak forces. US forces kill 81 in maybe a dozen attacks.

Only the 81 matter--half a million people flee in terror. If it's not the Jews responsible for all the evil in the world, it's the Americans. Let's face it--it makes life easier, everything predetermined, a clear metric for deciding right and wrong.

More have fled the Swat Valley than were cited in this article as having fled Bajaur, without so much as a single drone attack in Swat.

[cosmicone]

58. Those who live by terror die by terror.

Pakistani government used terror as official state policy in Kashmir and in India to achieve nothing. The Pakistani military and ISI still actively fund, train and support terrorists.

Now that the drone attacks are effective, Pakistanis are crying about a humanitarian crisis. Where were they when 9/11 was being planned on their soil and facilitated by their own ISI? All this is utter BS and Pakistanis are throwing a smokescreen to prevent Obama from dismantling their terror apparatus.

Go Obama and go drones!!

[bvar22]

67. Missles fired by drones into homes containing innocents....

IS
TERRORISM !

[Turborama]

74. Talking about humantiarian crisis, what about the Shias under siege in NW Pakistan?

Taliban have imposed a crippling blockade on Shia communities in northwestern Pakistan raising concerns of a 'dire humanitarian crisis'.

In a Tuesday peace summit held in northwestern city of Parachinar in Kurram Agency, political and religious leaders said the lack of government control had allowed the Taliban to pursue their aggressive agenda in the region.

The summit comes after reports of grave human rights abuses against Shias in Parachinar, which later turned into a complete siege.

Although Shias are the majority in Kurram, they are surrounded by the Taliban-linked aggressive militants who have gone so far as to cut off roads over the past few months. The militants are also accused of kidnapping or killing those trying to deliver supplies to the Shia areas.

Shia farmers have been forced to sell their agricultural produce in Afghanistan instead of the markets in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province.

Taliban-linked militants in Parachinar, Hangu district and much of the Kurram tribal agency have killed 25 to 30 people on a daily basis over the last six months. Some local media say more than 1,300 Shia community members have been killed in the region since 2007.

They claim that security forces in the tribal regions are 'under the influence of local Taliban groups', adding that law enforcement officers have 'willingly or unwillingly' launched a clamp down on Shia Muslims.

The killing of Shias is to such extent that has caused international outrage with rights groups and regional countries including Iran expressing concern over the 'genocide'.

The leading Shia figure in Iraq, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, has issued a ruling (fatwa) with respect to the treatment of the Shia in the Parachinar. The fatwa encourages all Shia Muslims in Pakistan to do everything within their power to help their "brethren."

Shias say they make up one-third of Pakistan's 160 million-strong population. Since the 1980s, thousands of people have been killed in violence-related incidents in Pakistan by extremist groups - who have embarked on an 'ominous mission' to 'eliminate' Shia elites across Pakistan.

They have killed hundreds of Shia medical doctors, university professors, lawyers and police officers across the violence-wracked country over the past few years.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=89643§ionid=351020401

As I said in a post above, there's a lot more than just drones creating the humanitarian crisis that's unfolding in Pakistan. People need to learn more about what's going on there than just reacting emotionally to an article that gives scant information about the bigger picture.

[irislake]

37. Sheesh!

What can I say?

They must be jealous of your freedom.

[chascarrillo]

42. Well, that election worked.

[Turborama]

43. Pakistan violence on rise despite peace deal / The 'Talebanisation' of Pakistan

Here's a couple of articles and an eye opening documentary that give a broader perspective of what's been going on in Pakistan of late: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x438484

Attacks made by US drones are not solely to blame for the humanitarian crisis that's developing there...


(edited to fix typo)

[JohnWxy]

45. Why are we bothering those nice Taliban - they are just kidding when they say they want to complete

what was started at the WTC? Too bad the Pakistani government let's them hide out in villages across the border from Afghanistan (after conducting military actions there).

Why don't we let these nice people go on with their humanitarian pursuits.

Taliban blamed for suicide attack on Pakistan mosque - Man challenged by security guards at mosque in Chakwal blows himself up, killing at least 22 people
The explosion, in Chakwal, 50 miles from the capital, happened as the country reeled from a weekend of renewed Taliban violence.

It came less than a day after a presumed Taliban suicide bombing in Islamabad killed six paramilitary soldiers and two civilians.

..and...

About two dozen people opposed to Baitullah Mehsud, the Pakistani Taliban leader, were in the restaurant when the suicide bomber struck on Thursday, they said.

~~
At least 11 people have been killed in a suicide-bomb attack at a restaurant in northwest Pakistan, intelligence officials say.
~~

About two dozen people opposed to Baitullah Mehsud, the Pakistani Taliban leader, were in the restaurant when the suicide bomber struck on Thursday, they said.

Several other people were wounded in the attack, which took place in the Jandola district of South Waziristan.

The intelligence officials said those killed were loyal to Turkistan Bittani, a pro-government Pakistani tribal leader.

Even if you're not concerned about AMerican lives ( - those who died in the WTC and those who will die if we don't do anything to stop these guys) you can't ignore the Pakistanis the Taliban kill as it pleases them.

It's too bad the Pakistani government can't do anything about the Taliban hiding out across the border from Afghanistan after conducting military actions in Afghanistan. Why can't they do anything about it, because they are afraid of the Taliban!

IF they want to impress us why don't they impress us by doing something CONTRUCTIVE instead of always choosing to be DESTRUCTIVE. Sure, that get's everybody's attention but let's not act surprised when people react to deadly destructive attacks with acts of self defense.

[patrice]

46. Straw man. No one thinks we should not solve our problems. We think the bias in our approach

gives us more trouble than it cures.

Don't you think it a little strange that we, in all of this time, never figured out a way to get OBL?

Some of us think there should be multiple approaches and ALL possible solutions should be on the table, not just those preferred by certain interests.

AND there are those of us who say killing the Taliban would be just fine if those who think so would just go do it, no maximum age limit, no gender limitations. If you think this is what needs to be done,

Go put your own blood on the line.

And don't TELL me to mortgage my future and the future of those for whom I have accepted responsibility by paying for it, especially since it won't work and will, in fact, just create more of the same.

[pjt7]

47. We need to demand that the media

examines the morality/effectivenesss of drones.

Maybe military drones need to be banned like nuclear weapons?

[trthnd4jstc]

49. No Innocent Blood Should Ever Be Spilled. We Create More Enemies By Collateral Damages. n/t

[balantz]

50. I'd like to see the imperialists and their armies get the hell out of the region. n/t

[closeupready]

56. And my regard for Obama just sinks lower and lower.

:mad:

[patrice]

57. All of this for certain forms of economic development that it is quite apparent that

American families are not psychologically mature enough to deal with and which are, incidentally, poisoning Earth.

And, as you can see from the "news", the chances that families and individuals CAN make functional adaptations, decrease as the oppressive trends increase.

[ernieferg]

61. The Cherokee Test

This is getting out of hand.

Imaging the following scenario. There is a family gathering in Kansas. One of the men (or women) that is to attend this gathering is, according to a foreign country's counter-terrorism force is an alleged terrorist who has allegedly committed acts of terror in eastern Africa, Iraq, and in the UK.

The family may or may not know this. No arrest, indictment, or extradition has taken place. The town the house is in is in a remote section of western Kansas.

Based on a tip that this individual will be attending the family gathering a drone is put into the air and has the house under surveillance. The drone is equipped with a satellite GPS guided air-to-surface missile of great power.

A Ford Expedition pulls into the driveway and the alleged terrorist is identified. The missile is fired. At this point, nothing can stop the missile.

However, the actual alleged terrorist has a brother that looks a great deal like him and is not in the Ford Expedition. Rather, the alleged terrorist is in a car that is still en route--a Lexus SUV.

The missile hits and utterly destroys the home. There is a huge ball of flame and black smoke and then nothing. Everyone inside that home is killed. The alleged terrorist pulls up to find only chaos and destruction and a some random body parts. The alleged terrorist leaves quickly.

Now, change Kansas to Pakistan or Afghanistan. This is what is going on.

Remote warfare is a war crime. In this scenario all of the lives taken are collateral damage.

You can change this narrative to have the alleged terrorist in the house and is one of the casualties. The brother (not an alleged terrorist) is the witness. He will soon be a terrorist.

Obama left Gates in place from the previous administration. Who is in control? It is not Obama unless he has made a bargain with the devil.

We are all complicit. We are all war criminals until we act to stop this. This is utter madness.

[winyanstaz]

62. So to whom does the evil of this war belong?

Why do those of us that are against wars for oil have to pay for them?
Why must those of us that are against wars accept the karma of all these innocent people dying?
If Bush owns the deaths of the hundreds of thousand of innocent kids, women, elderly, civilians etc that died for his lies in Iraq, who owns the karma of the deaths of these innocent civilians killed by machines?
Are these not war crimes to send machines to kill the civilians as well as anyone else they want to kill?
Who is a War Criminal now?

[mike_c]

64. it's Obama's war now....

eom

[Mari333]

70. amen. nt

[cambie]

75. Nope

He says it's America's war. In a democracy it is always our fault.


- "If God meant us to vote he'd have given us candidates." -

[Turborama]

76. This article has been snipped to make it look like it's only the drones

which are causing all the problems.

Some of the omitted statements in the original article:

"As many as 1m people have fled their homes in the Tribal Areas to escape attacks by the unmanned spy planes as well as bombings by the Pakistani army. In Bajaur agency entire villages have been flattened by Pakistani troops under growing American pressure to act against Al-Qaeda militants, who have made the area their base."

"Many have terrible stories. Baksha Zeb lost everything when his village, Anayat Kalay in Bajaur, was demolished by Pakistani forces."

"Pakistani forces say they have killed 1,500 militants since launching antiTaliban operations in Bajaur in August. Locals who fled claim that only civilians were killed."

Here's something from the BBC:

Sheltering from violence

The rich are moving to safer cities or even safer countries. But many of those caught up in the fighting in the tribal areas are poor.

More than 600,000 Pakistanis are now internal refugees.

Many live in camps under makeshift plastic shelters, on desolate mud plains, exposed to the wind, rain and sun.

I visited Kacha Gari camp, on the outskirts of Peshawar, escorted on the journey from Islamabad by a special military convoy.

I found a class of thin-faced schoolgirls, cross-legged in an airless tent, chanting the alphabet. Most had never been to school before.

Outside, among their mothers, I met Gulhayat, a strapping woman with crooked teeth and an open, hearty smile.

She had seven children, she told me and shared her husband with two other wives.

Back home, in their village, she used to live like a queen, she said. But two years ago, Taleban fighters came.

They stopped girls going to school. Women were not allowed to leave the house, even to go to the doctor.

"When my husband argued with them, they threatened to behead him," she told me.

Full article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7980735.stm

[paparush]

83. Goddamnit! Why in the F_CK are we fiting hot wars on 3 fronts?

Obama claims we're not at war with Islam.

Hard to convince the world of that when we continue to rain down death from above.

[MisterP]

85. we have to attack those barbarously-violent, totalitarian, school-attacking, fanatics

who have no regard for human life!
shouted the Western hawks, their ideologies drawn from imperialism, neo-fascism, and cultural supremacism, their followers frenziedly cheering on Muslims' deaths, gulags, and illegal spying on citizens-as-potential-enemies