Obama team warns U.S. lawmakers: Expect confrontation with Israel

[Barack_America]

Source: Haaretz

In an unprecedented move, the Obama administration is readying for a possible confrontation with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu by briefing Democratic congressmen on the peace process and the positions of the new government in Israel regarding a two-state solution.

The Obama administration is expecting a clash with Netanyahu over his refusal to support the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel.

In recent weeks, American officials have briefed senior Democratic congressmen and prepared the ground for the possibility of disagreements with Israel over the peace process, according to information recently received. The administration's efforts are focused on President Barack Obama's Democratic Party, which now holds a majority in both the Senate and the House of Representatives.

The preemptive briefing is meant to foil the possibility that Netanyahu may try to bypass the administration by rallying support in Congress.

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1077222.html

---

Sounds like Obama is truly committed to a two-state solution.

[babylonsister]

1. Recommend! Good! nt

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Windy]

2. No shit... Netanyahu is in bed with PNAC.... gaffney, et al. nt

[Zodiak]

3. Gotta say that's bold

...and welcome.

[Barack_America]

5. Right?

Did NOT see that coming.

[Howardx]

8. its a good tactic

spread the word preemptively "they will say x about me" takes away the lobbies power.

[Barack_America]

10. Some of the power.

It doesn't take away the money, and God knows how much the Congresscritters like that!

Still, most Dems in Congress realize that they need 2 things to get reelected; money and Obama's support.

[leveymg]

64. Tough times for AIPAC. Financial meltdown. And, Madoff and Adelson are off-line.

Madoff "lost" $50 billion, and is in jail. Sheldon Adelson (Sands Corp., funder for Freedom's Watch, Jewish Republican Coalition (JRC), Likud, settlers) is down about 95 percent of his worth, about $30 billion.

Between those two, and the collapse of the Wall Street and Vegas funny money centers they headed, AIPAC, JRC and ZOA aren't what they once were.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

77. yet the AJC was spending money hand over fist

in advance of that PR move, when Israel's top general flew in and tried to start a war against Iran. They were on the three radio stations I listen to, and they were nasty, full of shit and lying through their teeth.

I know how much those ads cost and it cost AJC a pretty penny for an entire month.

[Barack_America]

80. That's very interesting.

Thanks for the info.

[amyrose2712]

4. Wow. Who ever crosses Israel? K! nt

[yurbud]

36. Eisenhower was the last one to do it big--but he still had some mojo from D Day

[balantz]

48. Actually just before the assassination JFK was holding back when Israel was asking for nukes.

It was Johnson who began providing major military monies to Israel.

[Butch350]

84. Are you insinuating Israel and Johnson had JFK assasinated?

[balantz]

97. I didn't say Israel and Johnson assassinated JFK.

In JFK's interactions with Israel before he was assassinated was included his unwillingness to provide the state of Israel with nuclear weapons. When Johnson was in office he greatly increased weapons (and I think overall economic as well) support to Israel.

[kenfrequed]

131. Hmmm

George Bush Sr (as much as I dislike the man) actually spoke out against them and called Israel to task for the Palestinian thing.

[yurbud]

133. oil is thicker than Judeo-Christian blood

[tooko13]

141. ???

While in office? Do you have a quote or at least an approximate date? Did he stop giving them gobs of money and military hardware...because to me that is really how we should take Israel to task.

[kenfrequed]

147. Well

Bush senior did threaten to reduce aid to Israel because Israel was refusing to negotiate with the PLO. However he was forced to pull back due to excessive pressure from a massive lobbying effort by some of the hard line supporting Israeli outfits.

I am trying to find the exact date on this but unfortunately good sites are drowned out by anti-semetic bilge.

[Ken Burch]

166. And James Baker, his Secretary of State, was almost an Arabist

n/t.

[polichick]

6. Can we keep all that aid money now - we've got a bunch of citizens who could use aid.

[Downwinder]

12. why are we subsidizing Israel? They have National Health Care!! n/t

[14thColony]

62. The 1978 Camp David Accords

We are 'contractually obligated' by the second accord to provide $3 billion annually to Israel and $1.3 billion annually to Egypt. Basically, since 1978 we've paid the two sides off in order to prevent another Israel-Egypt war.

[varelse]

79. We need a new deal, then. (nt)

[jazzjunkysue]

89. Money well spent.

[14thColony]

90. I tend to agree

No Arab nation will risk war with Israel without Egypt on their side, and Egypt is paid to remain out of it militarily, meaning no major Arab-Israeli war since 1973.

[earcandle]

112. I don't understand why we need to fund them to keep them from warring

when they use our money to buy weapons!

Please point me to something legal I can read to justify why
our taxpayer money goes to support these two countries and not
our own work force, health care issues, and education?  Was
there a vote that Americans participated in that allows our
government to give our money away to support wars?  

And how do we revoke those gifts? 

[jazzjunkysue]

120. Of course you're right, but, the middle east is still mired in 3rd world problems.

As long as we have the lavish lifestyle, and they're starving and jobless, some sacrifices will need to be made.

Until the whole world has enough to eat and gets access to solid education, the world will be lopsided, and we, who live the american dream will have to pony up.

It beats raising another generation on war.

At this point, we've had a generation of kids raised in peace. Sometimes, you have to pay it forward.

[Chulanowa]

148. Our hands are a little dirtier than that

It's not just that we have lavish lifestyles. Get that out of your head - The people of the middle east probably don't really care much about how we live. No, the problem is how we make them live.

Check out the leaders of these places, Saudi Arabia. The UAE. Yemen. Egypt. Jordan, Iraq. All of them are ruled by stinking rich plutocratic dictators. The people don't like this setup, but they cannot rise up... Because any popular uprising in the middle east will have the "islamist terrorist" label slapped on it, and the United States will be all over it like stink on shit.

We subsidize and defend some of the most repressive, undemocratic slave regimes in the world. We have thrown our support to Israel's attacks on Lebanon, and we have funded and advised the Phalangists while they were in charge. We toppled Mossadegh and put the Shah in charge in Iran, and footed his bills through the entire mini-Hitler regime he ran. When he was overthrown, we labeled the entire country terrorist enemies, and sold chemical weapons to Iraq so lots of Iranians would die. And contrary to popular opinion, our involvement in Afghanistan ran contrary to the interests of the nation - We were in support of the drug-growing islamist warlords, against a flourishing social democrat state.

If it were only "we're rich and they're poor" it would be so simple. Problem is, it's not that we're rich, it's that we work so very, very hard to keep the people of the middle east poor and oppressed by their own governments.

[jazzjunkysue]

154. yep. n/t.

[raysr]

130. Why that sounds

like extortion. Let them fight it out, it's bullshit for the US to pay for them not to fight each other!

[mopinko]

129. no. we give them money so that they can buy american weapons systems.

like what most countries do with our military aid.
still hanging on a cross of iron.

[kenfrequed]

132. Yes...

This actually amounts to corporate welfare for our own arms industry. We either give other nations money in military aid so that they can buy our weapons systems or we loan them money for that purpose and then forgive the loans.

Really annoying.

[14thColony]

157. True, the agreement provides that the money

will be spent on US defense products, among other things. However in this specific case, and unlike normal military aid, it really is a bribe to prevent a future war. We just try to recoup what would otherwise be a net monetary loss via sales to the US defense industry.

[yy4me]

105. We give Israel Billions of dollars each year for whatever they

choose to do with it. Is it not time that we dropped this huge financial support? They are a viable economy and can fend for themselves. If they start a war, it will be with our dollars.
We need to take care of the home front. Perhaps some of the bullies in the Middle East will tone it down if they thought the bottomless pit of US dollars would dry up immediately.

[wuvuj]

158. That's the quickest way...

...to straighten out the ME....stop the damned funding of Israel.

They need to spend any $ given in ways to further peace...or LOSE THE SUPPORT. PERIOD.

The world doesn't have the time for Israel's crap. There are MANY more serious issues on the front burner...Israel's existence might need to be sacrificed for the overall good of humanity?

The exodus was a mistake...we take it back..... :think:

[raysr]

128. I have an idea

let's take all the money given to Israel and put it a "Lock Box" for SS. Then the repubs wouldn't have any reason to scream " privatisation!". Does Israel strike you as a poor country, needing help from a county that's having to bailout it's banks and buy up it's citizens mortgages? Gang of thieves still preying on the world's pity for the Holocaust.

[acmavm]

7. Well, that's quite a 'bold' move. He seems to like to draw the line in the

sand and then wait and see what happens next. This will be quite a change for the Israelis. They've pretty much been dictating the Mideastern policy for the US for the last few years.

I hope that he has enough support to be able to withstand the noise, name calling, and nonsense from cretins like John Bolton and AIPAC. He's taking a courageous and long overdue step in bringing some reality and fairness to the Israeli/Palestinian issue.

[aquart]

24. LOL!

Can't wait for negotiations!

[nradisic]

9. It is about fucking time!

US policy towards Israel and the Palestinians has been dominated by the PNAC and Israeli right lobbying. WE the US taxpayers subsidize the Israelis and their policies. Obama is saying no mas! Good. The two state solution is the only answer and if that means playing hardball - or just threatening Israeli aid, would be sufficient.

[Ken Burch]

43. I don't know if I'd put it as "Obama is saying no mas!"

We don't want any comparisons with Roberto Duran on this one.

[santamargarita]

11. How many times has Netanyahu been Prime Minister?

Seems like they're all retreads.

[louis-t]

114. All retreads. Bennie is the most right wing of all.

[Turborama]

13. K&R In hope that this thread sticks around and doesn't end up in the dungeon... n/t

[Barack_America]

14. Well this is definitely about "US policy in I/P issues".

So I didn't see any problems with posting it here.

I'll also be a bit cranky if it gets booted.

[Turborama]

16. If it did, you'd have my sympathy

That's how I feel right now.

[Barack_America]

33. Yeah, I'm sorry about your thread.

I have no idea why that got bumped.

I posted the State Department's response to Lieberman in the I/P forum.

Globalpost had this to say about it:

The Day in Israel: Wed Apr 8th, 2009

After Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said the world “should not stand over us with a stopwatch,” the US has made clear that it most certainly will.

Will Lieberman give in?

Does confrontation loom?

All this and more in the next episode of Who’s the Boss?

http://www.globalpost.com/webblog/israel-and-palestine/the-day-israel-wed-apr-8th-2009

:rofl:

[and-justice-for-all]

15. Israel is nothing but a pain in the ass...

A two state solution, where neither control Jerusalem, is the only solution. Even if it takes UN peace keepers to guard Jerusalem.

[Hippo_Tron]

53. I think the UN should seal off Jerusalem so that nobody can use it until they agree to play nice

Yea I know it will never happen but I can dream.

[jazzjunkysue]

91. That's so Star Trek! I love it. Imagine, sealed under glass, for decades.

What a great idea.

[L0oniX]

104. Our support for Israel is a pain in the ass.

[HooptieWagon]

17. Lieberman , DWS, and the other Israeli lobby puppets are gonna have a conniption.

[Barack_America]

20. You've also got to wonder what Rahm thinks of all this. nt

[HooptieWagon]

37. Good point. n/t

[Ken Burch]

41. Then again, Rahm might be the one guy who could get Congress to tell AIPAC to fuck off

Sort of the "only Nixon could go to China" thing, or something.

[Barack_America]

81. I wonder about that too.

The whole, "Listen fuckers, I joined the IDF, I know Israel and Bibi & friends are crap for Israel".

AIPAC, etc. remind me a bit of how the IRA would go from Irish pub to Irish pub in the US, guilting people into giving, "for the boys fighting the good fight back home". Meanwhile most Irish, Catholic and Protestant alike, actually living with the Troubles, cursed the outside interference

[kenfrequed]

134. I'm not sure

It is worth noting that the various pro-Israel lobbies are hardly monolithic. They do argue and bicker and are not agreed on any given policy or national stance.

It would be better if the more progressive or peace-seeking elements of Israel had a stronger voice there, but unfortunately the machine sort of pumps money directly into the Likud and other right wing parties there.

But I suppose there is always cause to hope for change.

[Ken Burch]

165. There are different Israel lobbies, this is true.

Still, everybody knows that AIPAC is the only one that matters.

[kenfrequed]

175. But...

There are some that are even more nationalist or reactionary than AIPAC, and oddly it is the most reactionary of these organizations that are propped up by the American Christian religious right organizations. Someone should really tell the Israeli people that these organizations have no interest in helping them and are busily envisioning a world where all of Israel converts to their brand of Christianity or dies.

[leveymg]

65. It's the other Lieberman who's going to be a major problem. He's already caused diplomatic rifts

Commentary at Haaretz on Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman's statements about bombing Egypt and preparing for war, that have a lot of people in Washington really pissed off.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1077054.html

SNIP

Avigdor Lieberman's performance at the foreign minister's handover ceremony looked menacing, a little because of what he said and a little because of his demeanor.

His credo did not exactly fit what is currently expected of an Israeli foreign minister. He does not recognize the Annapolis process, and he objects to territorial concessions. Add to that his telling Hosni Mubarak to go to hell and threatening to bomb Egypt's Aswan Dam, and you ask yourself: Is this the new government's position? And was his announcement coordinated with Benjamin Netanyahu?

It's hard to answer that unequivocally on the basis of Bibi's statements. Bibi, you see, said his government is bound by all the previous government's commitments, including Annapolis and the road map. Are the contradictory declarations coordinated? If not, why doesn't the prime minister call Lieberman to order and make it clear to him that he is doing Israel great damage? And if Bibi keeps mum, is that a sign he agrees with Lieberman, or worse, he's afraid of him?
Advertisement

At a certain stage Bibi and his cabinet will have to make a decision on the Syrian issue as well, for it is undoubtedly in our interest to remove Syria from the axis of evil. But according to what Lieberman says, this arrangement will be achieved without giving up the Golan. This is not the message Bibi conveyed to the American president's envoy, George Mitchell. So where does the truth lie?

If the contradictory statements are coordinated, starting out this way does not indicate decency or wisdom. If Bibi doesn't call Lieberman to order, he will seriously impair his status as a responsible prime minister, who does not want to repeat the mistakes he made during his previous term as PM.

"He who wants peace must prepare for war," Lieberman proudly cited a famous Roman epigram. Ehud Barak did well to finally break his vow of silence and criticize Lieberman's statement.

It is very important that this government not be clever to the point that the Americans start showing their claws. We have been known to misinterpret their manners. When the White House spokesman talks about "open talks" with the president, he means deep controversy. On more than one occasion I remember Menachem Begin coming out of a meeting with Jimmy Carter and announcing "we had excellent talks," while the White House made it clear to the Israeli reporters accompanying the prime minister that the expression "open talks" meant the opposite of Begin's interpretation.

When we make them angry, for example, when we wanted to sell China reconnaissance and intelligence aircraft, we came very close to a rift. Those with good memories may remember with a shudder the sanctions Henry Kissinger imposed on us under the title "reevaluation," or the time secretary of state James Baker refused to meet our ambassador, Zalman Shoval, saying that if we had an answer, this was the White House's phone number.

Gone are the days when we boasted that Israel was a strategic weapon of the U.S. and even saw ourselves, without blushing, as America's frontline aircraft carrier in the region. It's not that we've become a burden, but the Obama administration expects much more of us if it is to create a bloc of moderate Muslim states.

These days, when Obama has a majority in Congress and the world's eyes are on him, we cannot pressure him using our power hubs in Washington. The Jewish lobby has lost much of its strength in the current administration. And if we don't accept the principle of two states for two peoples, even Netanyahu's close ties with the evangelists and neoconservatives, who have lost their power and influence with this administration, won't help.

Lieberman puts a question mark on Israel's commitment to peace and could lead the Obama administration to show its claws.

SNIP

[stillcool]

18. Hillary is going to be one busy lady..

[Barack_America]

19. Don't forget Mitchell.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN06415640

[Mari333]

21. I will support Obama in this .

never thought you would hear me say that did you? I told you, when I agree with him, I agree. when I dont, I dont.

[RedCloud]

22. Use the rope a dope Barack.

One Zionist I met quite a few years back said if the USA makes peace in the Middle East it would not be good for Israel's economy. Sure hope that has changed.

[Hotler]

23. Kicking! ......eom.

[Autumn]

25. Very happy to K/R this

thread. It's the right thing to do. :kick:

[Kind of Blue]

26. Whew! Fasten your seatbelts, it's

going to be a bumpy ride. Been waiting for this for years.

[Jefferson23]

27. K&R for Obama

[Frank Booth]

28. This is change?!?!?!?

Oh, wait, yeah, it is. It looks like our government may finally stop selling us out to the Israeli far-right wing.

[ooglymoogly]

29. K R....Brillient chess move

Now he needs to watch his back. He is going up against all the horrific stuff going on in this country that has robbed us blind.

[Barack_America]

30. Obama to host Seder Thursday night

US President Barack Obama will celebrate Passover Thursday night with staff and friends in what is believed to be the first White House Seder attended by an American president.

The event was slipped onto the president's public schedule Tuesday night with little fanfare, following a letter signed by Obama earlier in the day wishing Americans who mark the day a "peaceful and relaxing holiday."

While presidential proclamations in honor of Passover have been common throughout the administrations of George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, this year's Seder is believed to be the first of its kind...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562942442&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


And like a good chess player, he already has his next move planned.

Is that too cynical of me?

[rateyes]

70. Are you kidding me? A self-proclaimed Christian who is really a closet Muslim

is going to observe, with a seder, the Jewish Passover?

How can that be? :sarcasm:

[jazzjunkysue]

95. Like a good chess player, he's going to win.

:hi:

[WorseBeforeBetter]

139. Hmm, I wonder if this means he'll also be celebrating the end of Ramadan....

with a sumptuous feast at the White House. According to Wiki, it's September 20, 2009. Mark your calendars: The day wingnut heads collectively explode.

[roberto]

151. GO OBAMA. GO !!!

Obama will succeed even though you'll try to through everything into him !! GO OBAMA. GO !!!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

159. I'll try to "through" what, Roberto?

Read it again, please.

[goforit]

31. ROFLMAO!!! Obama is a joke!!!....He speaketh with fork tongue!!! LIAR!!!!!

Balogna!!

Can I please take my friggin vote back.

IRAQ!!!!
AFGHANASTAN!!!!
WIRE TAPPING!!!!
NO CONSTiTUTIONAL RIGHTs
JOBS
HEALTH
MONEY
HOMES
BUSH CRIMES BRUSHED ASIDE

[Barack_America]

32. Harriet?

:shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

35. Don't forget the Re-education camps that Michele Bachmann spoke about

We are doomed! The Anti-Christ has been revealed!

Oh, the horrors!

:sarcasm:

[Ken Burch]

56. Actually, with a LOT of the right, they'd just be Education Camps.

:eyes:

[Ken Burch]

40. Er...this is an instance where the guy DIDN'T move to the right or sell out

This one is a GOOD thing.

(or...did you forget your "sarcasm" smilie?)

[Drunken Irishman]

55. I'm hoping it's heavy in sarcasm, but with DU recently, who the fuck knows, right?

[cali]

58. waah. poor wittle you. better run to ralphie and start working on his

2012 campaign.

[iamthebandfanman]

162. im pretty sure ole ralphie would approve of this

move regarding israel

[Butch350]

98. What is wrong with Barrack!

Three and half years to go - why don't he get off of his ass and do something before time runs out. Lazy ass Obama!

[muryan]

146. Literacy helps

He's done pretty much the exact same things he said he would do during the campaign. Don't be angry because you didnt understand it.

[DutchLiberal]

167. If you had actually followed the primaries, you would have known all of this was coming.

[yurbud]

34. a president who doesn't let Israel dictate our Israel policy? That's a hopeful sign

[Kalyan]

38. Need help to understand the issue

The 2 state solution is the most straight forward solution. Establish Palestine as a country & let Israel & Palestine sign a treaty recognizing the sovereignty of the other state apart from a treaty that commits the 2 nations to preserve all religious sites & allow flow of pilgrims.

If that happens, what is the objection from either Israel or Palestine/Arab world? I don't understand ..

[Turborama]

46. Water

The 'occupied territories' are where most of that area's aquifers are...

Whose water is it? On territorial sovereignty

by Denis Burke and Verena Schaer

=snip=

Case Study: Palestinian-Israeli Water Resources

More than half of Israel’s water resources are collected outside its territorial boundaries. Israel depends on water from extra-territorial rivers and from the Occupied Territories. In fact, 60 percent of Israel’s groundwater supply and 25 percent of its surface water supply originated in the Occupied Territories.

Israel has constructed an elaborate system of water transportation channels called the National Water Carrier. It provides water to communities along the coastal areas, including Tel Aviv and the arid southern zones, where most agricultural activities take place. Israel has deemed the amount of water transported by the carrier as a question of national security, so that information has not been made public.

Israel has also developed an efficient system to recycle water and has invested in advanced agricultural technologies. Only 30 percent of the water in that region comes from rivers with groundwater serving as the major water source. The most important groundwater sources are located in one of three aquifers, one of which is partially located below the Gaza Strip and has been exploited for many years. Overuse of the aquifers has caused seawater to invade the freshwater wells, making freshwater less potable.

The Israeli government controls water use through extraction permits, and Palestinians generally pay more for water than Israelis, while using far less. Palestinians receive fewer permits than Israeli citizens and are only allowed to extract water from surface wells that are mostly affected by droughts. This inequitable allocation of water combined with well-drilling by Israeli settlers have exacerbated high tensions in the region.

Full article: http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isn/Current-Affairs/Special-Reports/A-Thirsty-World/Editorial

I have carried out a lot of research on this topic and can give you a lot more info., if you're interested.

[Kalyan]

47. there are international agreements

there are international agreements for water sharing. Most nations in Asia & Europe have it. While that is a factor, it cannot be the major factor as to why Israel & Palestine don't realize that the 2-state approach is the only way forward

[Turborama]

54. The settlements haven't just been built in randomly chosen areas

The 1st 2 minutes of this video explain what I mean by that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x75SwvaoAg

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0791/9107026.htm">Water: The Real Reason Behind Israeli Occupations

=snip=

A Costly Peace

Thomas Stauffer, writing for the 1984 Arab Research Center symposium on water held in Amman, concluded that Israel's "only significant alternative to capturing more water sources is a large-scale desalination program that would require implausibly large increases in US aid, at between $1.2-1.8 billion per year. " Stauffer said Israel's cost for replacing only the water it takes from the occupied territories would be about $2 billion annually.

Aid given to Israel for desalination plants instead of for bombs and planes?

Why not?

From 1995: Israeli Refusal to Yield Control of West Bank Water Forces Deferral of Issue

From 2007: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6666495.stm">Obstacles to peace: Water

Also, even though it isn't reported much, Israel has been recently been suffering from a http://greenprophet.com/2008/07/14/801/israel-water-crisis/">major water crisis. As are http://greenprophet.com/2008/07/27/993/west-bank-water/">the Palestinians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX0i2ZQm0N0">The West Bank's acute water crisis (video).

If you google "Gaza water problem" or "Gaza water contamination" - without the quotes, you'll find a lot more about the problems the population of Gaza are having, too. For example: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14434.htm">"Positive Conditions" - The Water Crisis in Gaza

I'm not saying that this is an unsolvable problem, it's just the situation isn't as simple as you described and this problem is a major factor, if not the factor.

A final thought, water is more important to Israel than oil is to the US. Without it, Israel cannot survive.



Map of the water resources of Israel/Palestine,
and water utilization along the Jordan River.

(edited to add map)

[Kalyan]

60. great input. i never knew about the water issue earlier.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[amyrose2712]

63. Studies on Israel or water wars in general?nt

[Turborama]

173. Regarding this particular issue

looking into Israel/Occupied Terrirotories/Gaza water problems/solutions is mainly out of personal interest. It requires a lot of research to find out about it because there hasn't been a great deal of recent articles on this particular issue and how much of a role it's playing in the peace process.

In fact, looking into environmental water issues globally - and specifically in Indonesia - is part of my job. Wider geopolitical problems associated with water usage is something I'm just starting to get into.

[amyrose2712]

174. What is your job? I am..

going back to school in Sept to finish my BS in Environmental Science with a concentration in Hydrology. I am also planning on getting a minor in Latin American Studies. I hope to eventually work there as a hydrologist. I would love to chat with you about this some time.

[Turborama]

176. Sorry about the late reply, just noticed yours...

I'm an environmental consultant.

I'll send you my email address so we can keep in touch... :thumbsup:

[leveymg]

66. And 270,000 Israeli settlers, and the Palestinian land on the West Bank they occupy.

But, water is a major, related issue.

[Hippo_Tron]

51. Netanyahu is the leader of Israel's right wing

Many of them believe in the notion of "Greater Isreael" meaning that Isrealis not only have a right to the lands given to them by the UN partition plan but that they also have the right to settle in the West Bank and Gaza as well. Obviously a Palestinian state would hinder further settlement by Israelis in the West Bank. As far as Gaza goes, I don't think we'll be seeing much settlement there.

[jazzjunkysue]

99. You really need to stop being so rational.

You're making way too much sense!

(There are lot of people on both sides who really want to continue the bloodshed in a mindless attempt at revenge. Those people can't ever give anything to the other side.)

[SpartanDem]

39. Good move

[AzDar]

42. K & R

:kick:

[pjt7]

44. This is good news

Israel needs to be dealt with sternly, as they went overboard with their invasion of Gaza.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

45. Israel needs a different leader

a nice one not Netanyahu

[Left Coast2020]

50. I'll tell you this guy is amazing me. First I'm bummed about his position

on the wiretaps, but this is awsome. I absolutely love it when this guy takes a stand on an issue that I don't expect him to--or hope that at least he will in some manner. I didn't expect this. He surprised me. Netenyahu or however you spell his name--the dude is a RW zealot. I'm happy Obama is putting his foot down on this issue. Good on you Mr. President. But I can't understand why Congress is giving Israel more aid??? Why don't they just say, no peace/two state solution--no foreign aid. You want peace? You want foreign aid? Peace before money. Yahoo dude (along with the Lakude party) needs to be put on trial for war crimes against innocent Palestinian people. Yes, Hammas has some responsibility, but Israel has litterly been the aggressor--all because of their military capability. I saw an article on Truthout some time ago in which the writer was saying the same thing. The leadership in Israel is walking on war crimes footing. Perhaps Obama will stand along the wall that was erected to keep Palestinians out, and do what Reagan did in eastern Europe, "tear down this wall".

[Mithreal]

49. Way to do preemption right, Yay Obama! nt

[Hippo_Tron]

52. I don't think Netanyahu and Obama are as divided as they appear to be

The bottom line is that there is no peace process without Netanyahu. Obama can't negotiate a two state solution unless the Israelis are on board. Certainly he wants to make it look like he is trying to bring peace in the Middle East but it's not like anybody will be surprised if he fails.

I think Obama is doing this to give a false impression of a jagged relationship between himself and Netanyahu to the Iranians and other adversaries. If Netanyahu appears to be off of the leash, it means that Obama is the only thing standing between them and Netanyahu's wrath. That will make them more likely to comply with Obama.

[leveymg]

67. There's some truth to those statements. But, the jagged edges are very real.

In fact, US-Israeli relations are deteriorating while regional cooperation on several levels with Iran is dramatically improved.

Just as there can be no Middle East peace without the cooperation of the Israeli Right, there can be no stabilization in Iraq and Afghanistan without a constructive relationship with Iran.

Iran isn't nearly as threatened by Israel, and vis-a-versa, as some Israelis want us and them to believe. Nobody's straying very far off the leash. Far too much at stake for everyone involved.

[Yukari Yakumo]

100. Unfortunately...

The bottom line is that there is probably no peace process with Netanyahu either.

[knixphan]

57. KICK!

[laststeamtrain]

59. Mitchell back to the Middle East

Mitchell back to the Middle East
Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:30am

U.S. special envoy on Middle East peace George Mitchell is headed back to the region next week, State Department spokesman Robert Wood announced yesterday.

"Special Envoy Mitchell will travel to the Middle East beginning April 13 to advance the goal of the two-state solution and comprehensive peace in the region," Wood said in a statement. "He is scheduled to meet with key officials in Israel and the Palestinian territories, Egypt, the Gulf, and North Africa. Special Envoy Mitchell's aim for this trip is to discuss next steps in moving the parties toward a lasting peace that will benefit all the people of the region."

Mitchell's exact itinerary is still being worked out, State Department officials said. Though it will be Mitchell's third trip to the region since being appointed Obama's Middle East peace envoy, it will be his first trip since the Israeli government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was formed.

"The main event will be our first meeting with Netanyahu as prime minister," an administration official told The Cable. "A more substantive kind of discussion than before."

Last week, Israel's new foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, said the Annapolis peace process had "no validity." ... http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/04/07/mitchell_back_to_the_middle_east

[jazzjunkysue]

108. What? No one invited Condi?

:shrug:

[pjt7]

61. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu

may be th most dangerous World leader. The man could fairly be classified as a neo-con.

We need to be very firm & not support any more aggressive moves by Israel's eager military.

I really hope we %REDUCE our foreign aid to Israel & to Egypt. Even Steven. Why not save a $ Billion or so,annually?

[indimuse]

68. KNR!

I'm with Obama on this! Finally. :)

[pleah]

69. K&R

[harun]

71. Gobama, we got your back on this Obama. We can pressure our reps too.

[rateyes]

72. Let Bibi know that Israel can't push the US around anymore, Mr. President.

:kick: and Rec

[freemarketer6]

73. This is excellent news! Does that mean if Israel attacks Iran, we

don't support Israel?

[mod mom]

74. Good ! Neocon Netanyahu is a cancer to the world.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

75. This will be interesting

Which is stronger with Congress? The President or the Israeli lobby?

[TomClash]

76. I hope this is true

But I'll believe it when I see it. Israel will only propose nonsense and take more land. "Disagreement" without consequences achieves nothing.

[bdamomma]

78. Netanyahu is a right wing Israeli neo con, I hope Obama puts him

in his place, and oh, Israel you mentioned how the American President does not dictate orders to you that stands for us too!!!

[HughMoran]

82. It's about time

Israel needs to stop being the impediment to progress. They are the superpower in the region and seem to want the conflict to "go on forever" based on their reactive stance. I'm glad we finally have a President who will stand up to these intransigent ass holes.

[jonestonesusa]

83. Great news, great thread! K & R!!

I'm glad to add to the compliments for President Obama in pointing towards a change in our stance toward Israel. To show that the U.S. is now an honest broker will help our diplomatic relations all over the region and with the Muslim world as a whole.

Yes, we can!!

[redqueen]

85. Sane, long-overdue leadership.

I'm still not used to this. I'm still amazed every time I see it.

[Barack_America]

94. That perfectly describes my feelings.

The return to rationality.

It's wonderful.

:hi:

[jazzjunkysue]

86. This man's on a roll!! I approve! It's a no-lose. Even if he can't get it done, at least

he tried, right out of the gate.

He will do the right thing, win or lose.

This is not, after all, the united states of isreal. And my own daughter is jewish, so, I can say that. I spent 13 years in temple, so, no flaming. I loved it there, but, this is the right thing to do.

[bowens43]

87. Good!! We've been Israel's lap dog for far too long. nt

[happygoluckytoyou]

88. WEALTHY LOOKING FOR ANY REASON TO BREAK OBAMA SUPPORT.... here comes the first attempt

trying to move the JEWS from the ranks of the DEMOCRATS... the wealthy are playing the "all jews love israel" card!!!!
first of all I AM A JEW... second of all I AM ASHAMED OF ISRAEL'S RECENT ACTIONS (the past 8 years having been empowered by BUSH the war monger)

[Barack_America]

93. Could you elaborate?

Did you come across something that addresses this article? If so, I'd be curious to read it.

Thanks.

[jazzjunkysue]

109. At the RNC NYC con for B*, the "Jews For Bush" were out with their banner.

The looks on their faces were really cold and frightening. They knew they were going against the rest of us, circling Herald Square (they wouldn't let anyone stop and stand. We had to circle all night) with a long banner. Their eyes were all hate and fear and self protection.

I will never forget the looks on their faces that night. Everyone else was smiling and skipping and waving and singing. Not the Bush jews. They were grim and unrelenting.

There are alot of stuck people in the world. It remains to be seen how long they can out maneuver the new Obama hope and optimism.

[cali]

121. i hope you realize that they're a very small minority of the Jewish vote in this country

No group votes more reliably for dems, save African Americans.

[jazzjunkysue]

153. Yes, and no. I personally know several jewish people who call themselves

democrats but vote for Boosh because they want to continue fighting.

Same goes for the Cubans and they're U.S. families.

[dbackjon]

92. About time....good move

[Vidar]

96. It's about time. Good going, Obama.

[loudsue]

101. This could put Obama & his family's lives in danger.

That is what frightens me about this whole thing.

That said: I wonder if this issue isn't part of why he defended domestic wire-tapping.

I would not want to be Obama in this world's political environment.

[mr_smith007]

102. AIPAC will stop at nothing

to destroy the Obama administration when Obama takes this stand. They will use every trick in the book searching for ways to embarass the administration and chip away at Obama's approval ratings. I hope Rahm Emmanuel is ready to lead the troups and kick some ass...he is the only one with the guts and gumption to take on this caliber of a fight to defend the administration.

[jazzjunkysue]

111. This could bring them "over here," but it might be the only way to force a

peace.

Obama can't let their history scare him off.

[Holly_Hobby]

113. I smell a false flag attack n/t

[riverwalker]

106. Excellent

and long overdue.
Everytime I think President Obama can't get any better, he does. I love being astonished by him.

[Tarc]

107. Good to hear, it is about time Amreica stopped this cozy relationship once and for all

No viable diplomacy can ever occur in the Middle East while we are still attached at the hip to Israel.

[Barack_America]

171. Very true. nt

[AngryOldDem]

110. Finally....

An administration with some balls.

[stubtoe]

116. Hear, hear. nt

[FLAprogressive]

115. well that's a pleasant surprise. Surprised Rahm, AIPAC, and the gang are allowing it.

[cali]

119. um, Rahm and AIPAC do not control the U.S. government

no matter what the nutso's say. Influence is not the same as control, and Rahm Emanuel works for the prez.

[harmonicon]

117. here's a wild fucking idea:

STOP FUNDING ISRAEL!!!!! They do not need our money, or at least should not. We need that money spent in the US anyway.

[bvar22]

118. I STAND and applaud Obama on this.

I harshly criticized Obama on many issues, and strongly OPPOSE him on others.
On this, I applaud his stance.
GOBAMA.

This is certainly "Change".

[katty]

122. wow-now this is a bold shot across the bow--good!

[stray cat]

123. Would we accept an Al Queda state that vowed to destroy us on our border

I want a two-state solution but I can't be self righteous about it without seeing Israels perspective. We are asking them to do something I don't think we would do.

[creeksneakers2]

169. That's one of the things I'm wondering about

Israel pulled out of Gaza. Now Palestinians use Gaza as a launching pad for missiles into Israel. Its not suprising. The Palestinians were offered a two state solution before and turned it down. Their objective is to take back all the land they lost to Israel. Its a demand Israel can't agree to. Gaza shows giving back some land to the Palestinians isn't enough.

Decades now have been lost on the two state solution strategy. When is it time to give up?

[reprehensor]

124. Avraham Burg gets 'tough' on Israel at Georgetown University

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=293718&mesg_id=293718

[jimlup]

125. Wow! This is a tectonic shift!

And Israel's hard liners are not going to be happy. They will cry and whine louder and harder even than the repuks (if that is possible).

[Dukkha]

126. good! time to cut off the zionist welfare

billions wasted every year

[dgibby]

127. Wolf Blitzer's head exploding in

3...

2...

1!!!

[Jefferson23]

135. Limbaugh is already on the story, this from Media Matters:

After the break, Rush flogged an unsourced Haaretz article reporting that "the Obama administration is readying for a possible confrontation with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu." Rush was outraged that with pirates hijacking ships and North Korea launching missiles, the Obama administration considers Israel a "problem." Then it was time for the latest hilarious Kim Jong-Il parody in which the North Korean dictator explains how disappointed he is in Obama's lackluster progress towards "socialism."

http://mediamatters.org/limbaughwire/

So according to this guy, there are no problems with the I/P conflict I guess.

[Barack_America]

137. Not surprising.

That he brought this up AND that he doesn't see a problem with Israeli policies.

[Martin Eden]

136. How do the West Bank & Gaza become the Palestinian state?

I ask this question not to disagree with the 2-state solution, but to point out some of the practical impediments to that solution. Is there any other nation on the planet in which the country is not geographically contiguous, with their greatest rival planted firmly between the two sections? How do the West Bank and Gaza become a single unified nation and how do its citizens travel from section to the other?

I just want to know how this will work if somehow the 2-state solution becomes a reality.

More impediments to that solution are, of course, the Israeli settlements, roads, and exclusionary zones that have carved the Palestinian areas of the West Bank into many smaller fragments. The simple answer is for the Israelis living there to abandon the settlements or live there subject to the rule of the Palestinian state. But consider the violent resistance of Israeils against their own government when a relative handful of settlers were forced out of "illegal" settlements, then tell me how the existing network will be dismantled or incorporated into Palestine.

Don't get me wrong. I think our policy years ago should have been to withold aid to Israel unless they complied with UN resolutions to withdraw within the pre-1967 borders. IMO all the settlements are illegal. But realistically, aren't those settlements to a large extent a fait accompli? Aside from God himself or the Sons of Abraham descending from heaven and issuing decrees to the faithful on both sides, how do we get from point A to point B -- a soverign Palestinian state?

Hardline zionists will accept nothing less than all of the promised land, and Palestinian radicals will commit suicide bombings if that's what it takes to derail any peace plan that leaves the Jewish state intact.

It makes me think that a single state with Jerusalem as its capitol and all residents having equal rights under a constitution is more practical, but within a generation or two that would spell the end of the Jewish state. The Palestinians will outnumber them, and the Israelis know it. They won't go for that either.

Tell me what practical and realistic course the United states should take in resolving this situation. Honestly and sincerely, I really want to know.

[Scurrilous]

138. TIME Mideast Blog: Obama-Israel: A Widening Gap?

<snip>

"A further thought on Obama's latest Middle East moves:

It was to be expected, especially with a right-wing prime minister assuming office in Israel, but the discordance between the Obama administration and the week-old Netanyahu government has become striking. What's interesting is that Obama's clashing with Israel involves not just right-wing Likud but the ex-Labor/Kadima elder statesman Shimon Peres as well. What it seems to mean is that both sides realize despite the strong U.S.-Israeli alliance and friendship that there is a gap emerging on two major issues, the path to a settlement with the Palestinians, and how to handle the threat posed by Iran's nuclear ambitions. In general, Obama is in a hurry for Israel and the Palestinians to reach a final peace deal, and Israel is not; Obama is offering incentive carrots to the Iranian regime, while Israel prefers using sticks.

Before the start of the Persian New Year holiday Nowruz, Obama delivered a videotaped conciliatory message to the Iranian people and to the Iranian regime.

So in this season of new beginnings I would like to speak clearly to Iran's leaders. We have serious differences that have grown over time. My administration is now committed to diplomacy that addresses the full range of issues before us, and to pursuing constructive ties among the United States, Iran and the international community. This process will not be advanced by threats. We seek instead engagement that is honest and grounded in mutual respect.

In a gesture that may or may not have annoyed the White House, Peres, in his capacity as president of Israel, also delivered a surprise Nowruz message. It's tone and content completely contradicted Obama's message, in denouncing Iranian leaders and seeking to divide them from Iran's people.

To our great sadness, relations between our countries are at their lowest point. This derives from the leaders of your country, who are driven to act in every way possible against the State of Israel and its people, and even to threaten us with their intention to destroy us. I ask myself how a noble people like you can be caught up in a blind hatred like this, how you chose a leader who scorns the people who were murdered by the Nazis, and who wants to destroy and kill another country. You believe in God, and we believe in God, but in a God of life and respect, not a God of death and hate...We are certain and hopeful that the darkness and the evil will disappear from the world for the good of all of humanity. On the occasion of the new year, I turn to the noble Iranian people in the name of the ancient Jewish people, and I wish that they will return to reclaim their rightful place amongst the enlightened nations of the world.

A more in-your-face rejection of Obama's Middle East policies came from Netanyahu foreign miniser Avigdor Lieberman. At his swearing-in ceremony on April 1, Lieberman confirmed Israel's adherence to the step-by-step Road Map but categorically rejected continuing Israel's talks with Palestinian leaders on establishing a Palestinian state in the process launched at Bush's Annapolis peace conference in November 2007.

There is one document that obligates us - and that's not the Annapolis conference, it has no validity. The Israeli government never ratified Annapolis, nor did Knesset.

Obama didn't get Lieberman's memo. In his landmark address to the Muslim world in Turkey this week, he reiterated that the U.S. expected Israelis and Palestinians to continue the Annapolis process."

more

[Barack_America]

140. Thanks for posting that.

This entire shift in foreign policy is just so interesting.

Did you see that the US will be joining multinational talks regarding Iran nuclear power?

It seems that Obama is just going in the direction that he wants to and offering that Israel either keep up or be left behind. Very bold.

[Poll_Blind]

145. Thanks for that added bit of backstory- very useful!

:yourock:

PB

[treestar]

142. Go Mr. President!

[closeupready]

143. Well, despite my dislike of many other things he's done, I am greatly relieved that

Obama is committed to this. The failure to establish Palestinian state is at the core of a huge number of conflicts going on today.

[No Elephants]

144. Okay, but don't blame me if this throws a monkey wrench into the whole Rapture thing.

[Raineyb]

149. Good for him!

That's good to hear.

Regards

[roberto]

150. YES !!!!!!!!!!!

[burning rain]

152. Some precedent for this sort of thing.....

When Reagan aimed to sell AWACS aircraft to Saudi Arabia, Menachem Begin lobbied Congress directly against Reagan, this despite (according to Reagan's account), Begin's having previously said he wouldn't do so. And how much higher are the stakes here?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

155. i support obama fully in this

[county worker]

156. Yank our military support out from under the bastard and see who doesn't want peace in the Middle

East!

[me b zola]

K&R

[me b zola]

160. K&R

[iamthebandfanman]

161. boldest thing ive ever seen done regarding Israel.

which says a lot, since these are just words...


i dont expect to much action when it comes to being fair handed in the region, but atleast this will give a global appearance that Israel can do whatever it wants and the united states will just be quiet... which cant be a good thing when you are trying to win over hearts and minds of the group of people you are currently in a conflict with

[Barack_America]

168. .

:D

I liked your post.

[DutchLiberal]

163. You can't do business with nazi-like right-wing extremists.

They made Lieberman Minister of Foreign Affairs for cryin' out loud!

[jeff30997]

164. What ? This is scandalous !!1!

This thread MUST be dumped in the Israel/Palestinian Black Hole ASAP !!!

Think about the children !

Just in case: :sarcasm:


Two thumbs up for Mr Obama.:fistbump:

[The abyss]

170. Frankly, I’ll believe this when I see it.

[balantz]

172. I'm with you on that. I'll believe it when I see it. n/t

[sarcasmo]

178. Finally, someone in the White House with a backbone.