Karl Rove case witness killed in plane crash, sisters want answers

[sabra]

Source: Isthmus - The Daily Page

Web guru was potential witness in Ohio voting fraud case

Shannon Connell of Madison says her brother Michael rarely talked about work. She knew he ran an Ohio company called New Media Communications that set up websites for Republicans including former President George H.W. Bush and Florida Gov. Jeb Bush. But it wasn't until after he died last December, when the small plane he was piloting crashed, that she learned via the Internet of his tie to a voter fraud case and to allegations that presidential adviser Karl Rove had made threats against him.

"At first, it was really hard for me to believe Mike was dead because somebody wanted him dead," says Shannon, a buyer for a local children's resale shop. "But as time goes on, it's hard for me not to believe there was something deliberate about it."

A native of Illinois, Shannon moved to Madison in 2002, the same year as her sister, Mary Jo Walker. Walker, a former Dane County Humane Society employee, has similar concerns about their brother's death: "It doesn't seem right to me at all."

...

The attorney, Cliff Arnebeck of Columbus, Ohio, tells Isthmus he doesn't believe Connell was engaged in criminal activity but may have been a "data-processing implementer" for those who were. "I was told he was at the table when some criminal things were discussed."

...

Michael Connell's sisters don't know what to believe. Says Shannon, "I really just want the truth to come out." So does Mary Jo, who doubts this will happen: "With so many things that people in power get away with in this country, I don't expect anyone to ever be named, much less prosecuted, in the death of my brother."

Read more: http://www.thedailypage.com/isthmus/article.php?article=25758

[barbtries]

1. so his sisters think he was murdered.

i think so too.

[Hepburn]

3. Agree....

....just waaaaaaaay too much of a coincidence, IMO.

[L. Coyote]

117. Maybe not. This could be more cover for the real fraud, since the story was cover to begin with.

The Connell story was a cover-up to begin with because
the Ohio votes were switched BEFORE the ballots were counted.
This just adds to the distraction from that FACT! Ergo, more cover-up.

So, whose body was on the plane? Do we know? NO!!

[lala_rawraw]

122. Hey you

Nice to see you here. Just an FYI: We do know that Connell was the victim found at the crash site. I spoke with the medical examiner, the funeral home, and most importantly, the family. He was identified by his fingerprints because his face was so badly smashed. But yes, a cover up of a cover up of a cover up. Is that cover up cubed?:)

[earcandle]

125. I am really glad the family is standing together on this.

American law respects the family. 

Doesn't it?

When properly enforced? 

[lala_rawraw]

129. you like my cover-up cubed, eh? want more?

hehehehe

[merh]

137. I liked the cover up cubed

:hi:

[earcandle]

140. YES, I did. But I forgot where I was for a moment.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

130. DO YOU MEAN ROVE IS KILLING AGAIN???

[bjobotts]

141. I doubt Connor knew what he knew that would have sunk Rove, but

[bjobotts]

142. someone else would have put it together.Connor was there for all the crimes planning

[bjobotts]

143. Yet Connors wa only told so much and it always seemed innocent enough.

[bjobotts]

144. I think Connors was slowly beginning to understand just how he was being used and was a threat to R

[bjobotts]

147. It's all about this"abortion" crap rhetoric so here's some talking points to defend reality.

1. Abortion rates go down under democratic administrations as compared to republican administrations...and by a significant number

2. There were just as many abortions before R v W as after and the numbers are greatly exaggerated. The wealthy merely flew to Mexico etc. while those without money depended on alley 'docs' and mid-wives.

3. R v W is supported by a majority of Americans...not just dems but republicans also.

4. Republicans when they controlled House, Senate. and executive did nothing to change R v W as they only pay it lip service as it is an issue that keeps getting them elected.

5. Dems reduce the number of abortions by offering numerous alternatives and financial help while making abortions rare and safe.

6. Late term abortions are extremely rare being performed only when the health of the mother is in jeopardy. One woman who developed sepsis late term told critics that her 4yr/o and 2yr/o would much preferred to have mother back again than to be orphans.

7. Many supporters of pro-choice don't consider a handful of cells to be a 'baby' but a developing fetus. Abortions are not killing babies but halting the development of fetuses which could not continue outside the womb.

8. Those anti-choice critics refuse to allow preventive measures such as birth control or sex education and sex counseling to reduce the number of possible abortions but then rave about women choosing the only alternative left them to deal with unwanted pregnancies.

9. Anti choice critics are forcing their believe systems onto others who don't hold to their faith, denying individual freedoms under the guise of protecting innocents which others don't see as anything more than a handful of cells being removed...yet these same people allow the US to bomb innocents around the world and are even willing to stretch their beliefs to to include women who refuse to get pregnant when they are fertile....That is theocracy not science. In the land of freedom and liberty women should have the right to choose how to deal with their bodies until there is a viable child taking a breath that should then be protected. It's is not a question of what you "believe" but rather one of what actually is that determines when the life of a child exists and needs protection...You will never be able to stop abortions but if you really want to reduce the occurrence then the democratic party does that and have made it a plank of the party to make it "safe, legal,,,and rare". And they are the only ones doing that. So if you really want to stop it which you can't because the majority of citizens support it then at least reduce the numbers by voting democratic

[superconnected]

236. Great post!

[L. Coyote]

164. So, who identified him by his fingerprints? Why trust them?

Who is "we" in we know?

How do you know it was his fingerprints in the first instance? Do you have a set of his prints? Did you compare them.

This is how cover-ups work.

This ruse was falling apart, or rather, was picked apart by the facts.
Along comes a plane crash "killing" the witness working the cover-up.
Now, the focus shifts again, away from the facts of the Ohio election fraud.

It is time to get back to the beginning, "How did the steal Ohio votes?"

How Kerry Votes Were Switched To Bush Votes
http://jqjacobs.net/politics/ohio.html

"In a subset of 166,953 votes, one of every 34 Ohio voters, the Kerry-Bush margin
shifts six percent when the population is sorted by outcomes of wrong-precinct voting."

It does not matter who was on that plane or who created Bush web sites.
It does not matter that SmarTECH has a server in Tennessee.

What matters is which pile the ballots are in before they are counted,
and if the fingerprints on the ballot belong in that precinct or another one.
Just ask Marc Dann!

[lala_rawraw]

176. When I say

"We" I am referring to my colleagues on the story. I do not have his fingerprints and I am not sure why you are asking me if I do. But his family identified the body, the clothing, etc.. The fingerprints were done for the official record. His wife knows his body and identified it as well. If you don't think he was killed, what do you think happened to him?

[L. Coyote]

181. So, all this rests on trusting those accused of being the criminals or the police?

Or those associated with the accused criminals, like family. That's my point.

This whole thing was very bogus from the get-go. It still stinks to high heaven. Where is the credibility?

[lala_rawraw]

202. the family

is not involved in these alleged crimes. Mrs. Connell is - and I am not trying to insult her - only a notch smarter than a door knob. she signed whatever her husband gave to her and did not know anything. that is my personal opinion of course from speaking to her and those around her. he led a double life by all appearances. so even if you don't trust the fingerprints, the wife is not involved IMHO and has no reason to provide a false ID on her husband.

[Joanne98]

192. Ohio 2004. As someone living in Ohio... I suspect the fundies.

They got a secret cult going on in this state. It's hard to penetrate though. We need a spy!

[L. Coyote]

216. Have you met the Chairman of the Republican Party, Bob Bennett?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2719564&mesg_id=2723433

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cmd]

4. I thought so the night it happened

Something took that plane down as it was approaching the airport and I don't think it was ice.

[FourScore]

25. Yep!

But I also think the sister who says they'll get away with it is right. My heart goes out to his family.

[truedelphi]

52. Funny thing about airplane approaches to the airfield, and

People the Powers that Be wanna put off our radar.

Wellstone and his staff, pilots and family. JFK Jr and his family.

Don't forget - Ted Kennedy was supposedly gonna take a ride with Wellstone the day his plane crashed.

So this is the third plane that crashed as it approaches an airport where other planes are landing without incident.

[MajorChode]

121. There actually is a common thread in all three crashes you mentioned

JFK, jr crash:
The flight was being conducted in Instrument Meteorological Conditions(IMC). John-John wasn't an instrument rated pilot and didn't have the competency to fly into instrument conditions.

Wellstone crash:
Flight was being conducted in IMC. Both the pilot and the copilot were described as substandard pilots by their peers and numerous problems were noted with both. Peers had detailed occasions when copilots flying with the pilot had to take over the controls because the pilot had trouble during an approach. This should never happen. The copilot also had numerous problems and had been fired from a previous job for incompetency.

Michael Connell crash:
Flight was being conducted in IMC. Air Traffic Controllers observed that Connell was having problems on the approach and he elected to continue a bad approach which should have been discontinued.

Flying in instrument conditions is serious business. It is not the place for the untrained and/or the incompetent.

[rhett o rick]

131. Ok, but was that the only common element? nm

[MajorChode]

135. John-John, Wellstone, and Connell were all white males

They all had dark hair. All three were born in states that remained in the union during the civil war (although Wellstone was born in DC, so I'm not sure if that counts). All three were university graduates. None of the three wore dentures. I'm sure I'm missing a few things.

[rhett o rick]

170. I think it is coffee. 92 1/2%* of all people that die in a plane crash drink coffee.

But seriously, what is the point of your post about the common thread? Do you think the poster is being too hard on Rove?

*Please don't ask for a source of that statistic.

[MajorChode]

171. Was Rove even mentioned?

You must excuse my ignorance as I'm not really all that adept at tinfoilhattery. Perhaps it's well known in such circles that Rove is the architect of all the conspiracies of the 2nd Bush administration, and I'm just not that well informed.

The truth be known I really don't know what most conspiracy theorists are talking about a good part of the time. They seem to derive much of their information from rumor mills and very obscure publications that are of questionable value. Mostly I just enjoy the chuckle at the kinds of things that some believe, but occasionally I like to throw in a few facts to sober up the discussion a bit. Usually this results in one of a few standard responses such as, "I guess you just believe everything the government says", or some vague accusation that I must be part of the conspiracy. I suppose I have a bit of a cruel sense of humor in that I enjoy people flaunting their psychosis for the amusement of others and I do enjoy stirring the pot a bit.

[rhett o rick]

190. I understand and can appreciate your point of view. But

just because I am paranoid doesn't mean they are not all out to get me.

I believe the government lies to us on a regular basis. For our own good, of course. Therefore when they come out with something as crappy as the Warren Commission and the 9/11 commission, I just plain do not believe a word. And I wonder why was it necessary to lie to us. This of course leads to theories as to what really happened. Those that feel more comfortable believing the government swill, try to belittle these theories by labeling them conspiracy theories. But to me that is like the British calling the American insurgents "Yankees" in an effort to insult. But like the Yankees, I will accept conspiracy theorist and wear the label proudly.

For example, long before revelations of evidence of torture there were those with their "tinfoil hats" that tried to alert the public to the horrible deeds. But the public reveled in their ignorance. Fingers in their ears humming "God bless the fuhrer". Even today I believe we have only unearthed a tiny portion of the atrocities committed by the bush family. Ooops their I go.

I don't believe we know what happened to JFK or RFK or MLK jr. or what happened to the World Trade Center.

[MajorChode]

211. As I said, everyone is free to believe whatever they want

But trying to convince anyone else with evidence that doesn't pass the sniff test doesn't cut it.

One thing you have to be able to do is put your biases aside and take a cold hard look at the facts. There's plenty of people who believe Vince Foster was murdered by the Clinton administration. Just because you can point to instances were the government has "lied" does not make that conspiracy theory any less of a crock of bullshit either. Some people just believe what their theology or ideology directs them to believe, and no amount of reason is going to convince them of something that runs counter to their preconceived notions.

I had plenty of fun laughing at the Vince Foster and Waco loons also. With some it's just better to wind them up and watch them go.

[truedelphi]

155. Kennedy quite possibly had a flight trainer on board with him.

We will never know because the logbook was not located, despite the duffel bag that Kennedy kept it in being pulled from the sea.

There were two pilots aboard the Wellstone plane - and if one of them screwed up, the other would have adjusted for it. Or at least made contact with the tower to say, "Damn. My buddy here had really fucked us up!" as they went down.

instead, Wellstone's plane not only wa going way too slow in its approach to the Everett airfield, it lost contact with the tower before it started to crash. This means it could not have been a flock of birds - pilots routinely verbalize that situation with the tower, etc.

EMF disturbances were noticed in area at same time as Wellstone's approach. One such disturbance was strong enough to have garage doors go up and down.

[MajorChode]

165. You're in way over your head

Obviously you're not a pilot and have no idea what you're talking about.

The idea that John-John had an instructor on board is nothing more than tinfoilfoilhattery. The fact that none of John-John's instructors turned up missing is a small fact that seems to be lost on those who make such asinine allegations. His logbook is completely irrelevant because I don't know of any pilot that logs a flight before they make it seeing as how they would have to be clairvoyant to do so.

Your comments on the Wellstone crash demonstrate how very little you know about aviation. The first rule all pilots live by is aviate, navigate, communicate, in that order. In a crisis, there's very little point in relaying your situation to a controller who has little chance of understanding your dilemma and even less chance of helping. If you think pilots always contact ATC in such situations, you have no clue regarding what goes on during the last moments of fatal crashes. The pilot in the Wellstone crash had a history of not maintaining airspeed on approaches and several instances were listed where co-pilots had to take over. The captain should ALWAYS be more proficient than the 1st officer. He even confided in a friend he had trouble landing the King-Air. The co-pilot he was with was even more incompetent. Both of them were an accident waiting to happen and neither should have been allowed to fly that aircraft.

The EMF tinfoilhattery is always good for a chuckle.

[glitch]

189. Insults aren't rebuttal, in fact they weaken any points you are trying to make.nt

[MajorChode]

217. Do you often find people weakminded enough to believe such nonsense?

Even if I had actually insulted anything or anyone, it doesn't "weaken" any points I made, unless we're talking about people who so lack the ability of abstraction they can't distinguish tomfoolery from a perfectly valid retort. Personally I give most on DU that much credit, but YMMV. So I reject your trite cliché outright, but don't let me stop you from repeating it as I do enjoy watching people repeat such asinine babble and honestly believe they are making a valid assertion.

Furthermore any insult I made was to his argument and not to him personally. Apparently that's a subtle difference you missed entirely. Given the content it's really better than it deserved to begin with.

[glitch]

224. Strong-minded people don't need this advice and weak-minded people don't take it. nt

[MajorChode]

243. Who said anything about "advice"?

Do you actually have any idea about what you're saying, or do you just write things down that sound good to you at the time and regurgitate them later?

[truedelphi]

197. Okay, Mr We Know So Much - Explain why did the plane was seen to have caught on fire before t

Crash (Eyewitness reports) and also why the plane burned for so damn long? (Shortly after 11Am to shortly before 6Pm Central Time)

The fact that I don't fly doesn't mean that I didn't consult with those who do.

Also why did CNN knock itself out to have Blitzer more or less apprehend the local reporter, who was standing on the Everett field as he showed up. She was reporting that the weather was not a factor. Blitzer took over and kept stating that the weather was a factor. (If the weather was a factor, then why was the Everett airfield manager able to get up in his own small plane and search around for Wellstone's plane?)

Also just two weeks before this plane went down, The Homeland Security department issued a warning that Senators were considered very much at risk from terrorists. Yet less than six hours after the crash, we were assured that the cause of the plane crash was not related to terrorism.

[MajorChode]

223. So much tinfoilhattery, where do I start?

Explain why did the plane was seen to have caught on fire before t Crash

I'm not sure if this was a voice inside your head or not, but no such "eyewitness" exists in the place the rest of us call "reality". The NTSB report mentions only one witness, and that witness said nothing about a post impact fire.

also why the plane burned for so damn long?

Do you have any idea how much jet fuel a King Air carries?

Also why did CNN knock itself out to have Blitzer more or less apprehend the local reporter, who was standing on the Everett field as he showed up. She was reporting that the weather was not a factor. Blitzer took over and kept stating that the weather was a factor. (If the weather was a factor, then why was the Everett airfield manager able to get up in his own small plane and search around for Wellstone's plane?)

First of all, I'm not saying weather was a factor, so you might want to try and figure out just exactly with whom and with what you're attempting to form a coherent thought with. Next, do you honestly believe Blitzer is a reliable indicator of the relevancy of the weather at the time of the crash?

Also just two weeks before this plane went down, The Homeland Security department issued a warning that Senators were considered very much at risk from terrorists. Yet less than six hours after the crash, we were assured that the cause of the plane crash was not related to terrorism.

First of all, you weren't "assured" of any such thing. Now perhaps you thought you were, but you weren't. They may have said something to the effect of "we don't think it's a factor", but to anyone who is at least functionally literate, that's not at all the same thing.

[truedelphi]

198. BTW the tinfoil hattery claim was thrown at me for my support of the voting election

And voting machinery issuie. Finally, as of Autumn 2008, most people on this board accept that our voting machinery is wide open to theft.

And also, I was considered "Tinfoil" hat when I opposed MTBE in the gasoline supply here in California. But that tinfoil hat charge is now gone, because we activists who opposed MTBE were proven right.

Also the fact still remains - the Warren Commission is so flawed that it is pathetic - it left out major statements by witnesses. I trust it just about as much as I trust the 9/11 Commission's "Official" book on 9/11 - which is to say, not very much.

If Bugliosi used the Warren Commission's report for his book, then it stands to reason that his major premises willbe flawed too. The Warren Report simply cannot be used as reliable documentation for much of anything.

[MajorChode]

226. When someone throws every piece of bullshit they can find against the wall...

sometimes some of it actually manages to stick. A stopped clock might be right twice per day, but chances are people are going to ignore it all of the time and for very good reason.

I have no idea what you said when about other subjects, and frankly I don't really care. I live in the here and now, and much, if not most (or even all), of the stuff you are spewing in this thread is tinfoilhattery. What I have observed is when the stuff you are spewing is soundly debunked by myself or someone else, rather than admit as much, you just throw more of it against the wall again in the vain hope that something will actually adhere. That's tinfoilhattery, my friend, whether you choose to admit it or not.

[laureloak]

163. JFK Jr crashed due to pilot error over the ocean.

He was not instrument rated but chose to fly with zero visibility anyway. An unfortunate error in judgement.

[MajorChode]

173. I don't know that there was zero visibility

However, some of the weather reports do suggest that instrument condition prevailed over part of the route. Had the flight taken place during daylight hours, there almost certainly wouldn't have been any issues. Many low time pilots evaluate weather reports with only a daytime VFR mindset. It's very easy to inadvertently fly into IMC at night without knowing it until they are overcome with spatial disorientation. Unfortunately the same conditions have killed many people and will continue to kill more.

[truedelphi]

200. Even if Kennedy had experienced "zero visibility"

Why would he grab the throttle and do a descent of 2500 feet in mere seconds?

He had quite a few hours of flight training. He had also been up with flight instructors who had shown him how to operate the instruments he needed.

Does anyone think that with Kenendy calling the air traffic control tower at 9:39 Pm, and reporting (apparently) according to them, that all was well, and that he was flying at 2500 feet, approaching the airport, that at 9:40 he would suddenly notice ZERO visibility and IMMEDIATELY seize the throttle and descend all 2500 feet in a nosedive?

Why? That makes no sense? As a passenger car driver, who has once in a rare while run into ZERO degree visibility suddenly - I don't grab my steering wheel and immediately do a 90 Degree adjustment. I continue forward and hope for the best. The 90 degree adjustment would be akin to suicide, especially for my car if on a two way heavily trafficed road. And for anyone suggesting that JFK Jr did a full throttle nosedive because he saw some difficult visibility situation is equally absolutely crazy.

[MajorChode]

204. It sounds crazy to you because you're not a pilot and you don't understand spatial disorientation

Just to get a basic pilot certificate, a person must have some instrument training. While it's true that John-John had some additional instrument instruction and he was working towards his instrument rating, that doesn't mean he had the knowledge and skill to fly single pilot in IMC conditions. Every pilot knows how to "operate" the instruments. Being proficient with them is another matter entirely. Contrary to what some have alleged, John-John was a decent pilot and he was progressing in his instrument training well according to the instructors he flew with, but he wasn't prepared for what he got himself into.

Kennedy didn't talk to ATC the hour prior to his accident, and since he was flying under VFR, there was no need for him to do so. I have no idea where you're getting your information from, but it's wrong.

You can't compare flying an airplane to driving a car. It's apples and oranges. It's pretty much impossible to get spatial disorientation in a car, and even if you did there's no danger of getting in an unrecoverable unusual attitude because you're only operating in 2 dimensions. Furthermore, flying at night you don't necessarily know you've lost your reference to the horizon because you can fly right into a cloud and not know it until it's too late.

[truedelphi]

205. He talked to the air traffic controllers at 9:39 Pm and that information

Was related by a Coast Guard officer early into the media discussion. This Coast Guard officer was the first spokesman for the incident. Then he was "disappeared" (Not literally - he's still alive and well), but he was thrown out of the mix of people discussing the incident with the public.

In fact, the Pentagon took over all the media discussions. The Pentagon. Doesn't that bother you?

[MajorChode]

207. Wrong

The tower controller then instructed the pilot to "make it a right downwind departure then." At 2038:56, the pilot acknowledged the instruction stating, "right downwind departure two two." No records of any further communications between the pilot and ATC exist.

The target's last radar position was recorded at 2140:34 at an altitude of 1,100 feet.

2140:34 minus 2038:56 equals 1 hour, 1 minute, and 38 seconds. It would have actually been a bit longer because even in a steep dive it would have taken a few seconds to get from 1,100' to zero.

[truedelphi]

214. First of all visibility was actually about eight miles that night

No other pilots flying into or out of Martha's Vineyard complained of anything that would substantially inhibit their or other pilots from landing

Don't know where you are getting the information about the one hour in the air after the 9:39 communication with the air traffic controller tower.

But check out this:
http://tinyurl.com/c2jyvm

[lala_rawraw]

233. martha's vinyard?

i am entirely confused. when in the course of this flight did Connell go to Martha's vineyard?

[MajorChode]

234. Your own link disputes your own assertion

It also shows your ignorance. The reported visibility may have been 8 miles at MVY at one point, but Kennedy never made it to MVY. Next, the meteorological conditions over land and over water can vary greatly even within a very short distance from each other. Another pilot reported having to go on instruments that night because of the prevailing conditions. Next, the reported conditions at MVY were on the surface, not at altitude. Next, spatial disorientation can happen in unlimited visibility conditions. Just because you can see 8 miles on the surface, doesn't mean an aircraft can see the horizon, and spatial disorientation happens because the pilot can't see the horizon.

I got my information from the NTSB report. As far as your link goes, it's full of innuendos and unreferenced crap. As you have so apply demonstrated, anyone can bang away whatever they want on the internet, but that doesn't make it so. I don't put much stock in a collection of mostly incoherent nonsense on some anonymous person's personal web site. If you do, that's your business.

[lala_rawraw]

232. we don't have all of the communiations yet...

the NTSB investigator told me he said a bit more, but declined to share it at this time. for all we know, Connell could have said "my god, it's full of stars" or recited a dirty joke. but whatever it is, just fyi, we won't have all of it until the investigation is complete.

[MajorChode]

237. The previous poster was referencing the JFK jr crash

At least as near as I can tell. It's hard to tell sometimes because his thoughts seem to bounce around with very little coherency.

The voice communications with ATC actually make it out pretty quickly because they are easily available with a FOIA request to the FAA and they are typically out in the public domain within days and well before the NTSB releases even their prelim.

I would say the chances of there being any unreported communications pretty much nil. But I would agree that until the final NTSB report comes out, there is still a lot of information that hasn't been disclosed.

[truedelphi]

215. Also factor this into the scenario -

"In Kennedy’s case, the pattern of debris supports the likelihood of a mid-air explosion. As The Vineyard Gazette reported, the debris washed up on beaches throughout the southern part of the island—from Gay Head to Edgartown—a distance of approximately 25 miles. It is doubtful that a plane hitting the water intact would result in such a broad pattern of dispersion."

[MajorChode]

241. Doubtful according to whom?

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

75% of the aircraft was recovered in a 120' long area on the bottom of the ocean.

[truedelphi]

199. We do not at all know whether or not the

Plane with JFK Jr his wife and sister in law had a flight instructor aboard or not.

We do know the following:

One: JFK Jr's palne was flying at 2500 feet, at the 9:39 Pm point in time when he contacted the air traffic tower to report his need for clearance to land. It was a short phone call, according to what the operators there claim. Nothing un-routine, out of the ordinary was reported.

His plane began a steep descent - a radically steep descent about one minute after this call was made. It went from 2500 feet to zero feet in under a minute.

So think about that. Even if visibility was poor, do you think someone with the intelligence of JFK Jr wouold go, "Oh my gawd, I cannot see - I guess I better grab the throttle, and plunge the plane directly into the sea!"

That makes no sense.

Also, bear in mind, that as this was happening, other planes were landing at the airport on Martha's Vineyard, and none of them were distressed about it. None of them contacted the media and said, "Hey was that ever a hairy situation - JFK had no business being up there."

Also we know this:
A documentary keeps airing on our public TV station here - and it points out that for whatever reason - the plane goes down. It has a GPS style beacon locater on it.

When a plane goes down, any time a pilot within range of landing has established contact with the air traffic control tower, an alarm goes off. Within twenty minutes. So JFK Jr's plane goes down.

He had made contact with air traffic controllers at the field where he planned on landing at 9:39 Pm the night he died. His plane went off the radar at 9:40 Pm. It crashed not far from where he made that contact - 17 miles SW of the airfield.

NOTE: usually there is some type of search. In fact, it would be fair to say if a pilot makes contact with an air traffic controller there is ALWAYS a search. (In Wellstone's plane's case - the airfield manager took his own plane up and scouted around looking for the crash site, immediately after the Everett Airport lost contact with Wellstone's pilots.) In any event, the second JFK Jr had called the airfield, an alarm feature should have been activated, such that should his plane crash, or get lost after that contact, then an alarm would go off - within twenty minutes..

The alarm should have gone off at the Martha's Vineyard airfield by 9:59 Pm. It never went off, or it went off and was silenced.

Yet no one at all looked for his plane. Friend's of Bissett called and asked the airport for information and asked for a search. Finally at two friggin' Am that Saturday morning, one of the inner circle of Kennedy's asked the Coast Guard for help. (Since the FAA was refusing to make any moves at all, and the plane, if it went down, could be presumed to have gone down inside waters patrolled by the Coast Guard.) But then, no real response from the Coast Guard.

Finally shortly after 7Am, Ted Kennedy called Bill Clinton at the WH - and Clinton got the Coast Guard and FAA to work on it. But get this - the locater beacon was still signalling the position of the crashed plane. Yet the head of the Pentagon's search and rescue advised the Coast Guard and the FAA that since there was no way to know where the plane was, they needed to cover a 2200 sq mile area - rather than giving out the co-ordinates of the beacon!

SAo for fifteen hours, yes let's repeat that, for fifteen HOURS after the plane went down, we can suppose that sopmeone suppressed the inforamtion from the beacon regarding the whereabouts of the crash site. Only after 1Pm that Saturday did the Pentagon (Why was the Pentagon made the announcers of record?) state that they had a bead on the crash site?

Yet callers in to local media had stated that they saw what they thought were Coast Guard Helicopters out at the exact site BEFORE noon that day! Why were they there? What were they doing?

[Jackpine Radical]

68. They seem to have a system for taking down small planes mysteriously.

Think Wellstone, for example.

[saigon68]

118. Yes Paul Wellstone he was a real pain in the ass to the

Ruling Corporate Criminal Class

[emlev]

149. not even ice "cubed" /nt

[BonnieJW]

18. I always hoped

he left some kind of proof somewhere and left instructions with someone to expose it if anything happened to him. I don't know why he didn't do that because I heard he suspected bush's bullies were after him after he agreed to testify.

[suzanner]

42. He possibly did leave info somewhere but

people who would plan such a thing would have thought of this, no?

[lala_rawraw]

102. he had a laptop with him that survived the crash

it was taken into custody by the state troopers and then the funeral home took it. I assume they gave it to the wife, but they would not tell me who they gave it to. only that they had it and that they gave it to someone.

[pocoloco]

23. More likely suicide......

to get into a small plane.

[LiberalFighter]

39. Time for Bush, Cheney and Rove to get into one of those small planes.

[Jim Pivonka]

45. Check out these Mike Connell research threads!

Especially this research thread by : drm604
and this one by mikelewis

The rest are at DU Search on "Mike Connell"

[JonLP24]

86. GREAT POST!

I bookmarked both those threads.

[lsewpershad]

172. Me too

This should be thoroughly investigated.

[aquart]

208. Who ya gonna call?

Who was running an assassination bureau in the Bush administration?

[Patsy Stone]

2. Another victim of the Bush Administration

Poor man. I think the sisters are on to something here.

[HopeHoops]

5. The GOP crooks just LOVE THEM some plane crashes.

They seem to use that tactic often enough that you THINK the feds would have picked up on it by now!

[MorningGlow]

24. Used to be crazed lone gunmen

I guess that excuse got worn out from overuse and they had to come up with something else. Hope nobody tells them the small plane crash excuse is also getting worn out--then they'll invent something new and we'll have to lose too many people before the general public starts to get suspicious again.

[Tab]

6. There seems to be an odd proportion of people

against or, viewed as a threat to, the Bush administration that seem to die in small plane crashes.

No tinfoil hat here, but I believe in coincidences only up to a certain point. After that, I start to wonder.

[Mnemosyne]

73. And it is extremely rare for an R to die in a small plane crash. n/t

[ColesCountyDem]

168. Actually, it isn't.

http://www.airsafe.com/events/celebs/politics.htm

[aquart]

221. That lists 9 Dems and 3 Republicans. Three to one.

[ColesCountyDem]

240. It's not an exhaustive list, by any means...

It's the first one Google turned up, which basically makes my point: members of BOTH parties die in general-aviation accidents, just like the rest of us ordinary mortals do...

:eyes:

[Bette Noir]

7. Sounds like an investigation is in order.

[L. Coyote]

218. Long before this plane crash!

[glitch]

8. "With so many things that people in power get away with in this country, I don't expect anyone to...

...ever be named, much less prosecuted, in the death of my brother."

Ain't that the truth.

[wisteria]

9. I would like to get to the truth, but know full well we may never learn the truth.

And, when and if we do, it will be so far in the future it won't matter to many people and it will be shrugged off.

[stillcool]

12. Isn't it odd the way that happens..

the most dastardly crimes are reported, the outrage brews..until another takes it place. When any are revealed by the 'media'..it's ho-hum and totally distorted..but..it's put to bed. It's gotten tedious.

[merh]

138. Scandal Fatigue - that describes the bushco terms

so many wrongs and abuses and crimes, it is hard to keep up with them. I think that was part of their game, muddy the waters so much those trying to keep up with them were just overwhelmed and exhausted. The public just shut it all off.

[earcandle]

145. Don't be too surpised, the world is changing. All there really is, is change.

[MasonJar]

10. According to stories about the time (pre and post the airplane death)

Connell was getting ready to testify as to the illegitimate activies, which he had been a part of because at the time he had thought it his moral duty (Bush being such a Christian, as apparently are Connell and his wife.) However, by the time of his death he was going to blow the whistle (I guess he finally recognized the lack of Christian virtues in the Bushista) and was warned more than once against flying his plane. In fact if I remember accurately, Connell actually postponed one or two flights he had planned. This was murder pure and simple.

[hugo_from_TN]

43. Link for any of those stories pre-death?

Especially warnings about flying and postponing other flights.

[lala_rawraw]

109. it was two places...

a CBS affiliate in Akron (we posted the video) and Madsen. but we looked into it. it is not supported by facts. there is simply no proof that he canceled two flights. he abandoned 1 as a result of engine issues. we don't know what was with the other one, but it was not a canceled flight. no one i spoke with claimed that he was told not to fly. so the only two places are CBS local and Madsen.

[MajorChode]

139. There wouldn't be anything unusual about cancelling the flights anyway

I have canceled two flights myself in the past three days. I canceled one today because there was a maintenance issue with my plane. A part that I recently had replaced caused the intercom to malfunction and I needed the intercom to do instrument training. I canceled another flight two days ago due to severe weather that blocked my destination.

In the past year I have canceled over a dozen flights for various things. Any general aviation pilot who flies regularly will have similar stories. If there is something questionable about the plane, you don't fly. If there is something questionable about the weather, you don't fly. It's not the same thing as the airlines that have spare planes, an army of full time mechanics that can fix problems at a moments notice and can fly at altitudes well above the weather.

[lala_rawraw]

178. No there would not of course...

But the two flights in question that Madsen and others claim were canceled as a result of warnings he had gotten were NOT canceled. One was aborted and that was due to engine issues. The second flight was a 10 min romp around the airport, which could mean he took someone up for a joy ride or had a meeting or was testing out the maint. done on his engine. We don't know why it was such a short flight, but it was not canceled as the flight data has shown.

[MajorChode]

180. Exactly, their claims were nothing more than ignorance and/or obfuscation

Even assuming a flight was aborted due to engine issues it wouldn't be that unusual. It's quite common for spark plugs to foul (which is checked during the engine run up). Sometimes you can clear the foul by running the engine at high rpm for a couple of minutes with a lean mixture and sometimes you can't. There's also dozens of other things that can cause a pilot to abort due to "engine problems".

[lala_rawraw]

201. but that is the point

i have been making (if you scroll up). the flights were not canceled. and he did have engine trouble, which is why he aborted the first time. and if this is an accident, it is likely due to engine problems, not icing - which ATC, other pilots, and the NTSB all told me was not the cause (although NTSB is still in the middle of the investigation, so never say never type thing). glad we agree:)

[MajorChode]

209. I can't agree with your conclusion

If he had engine problems months before, it doesn't mean he had engine problems the night of the accident. As I said, "engine trouble" can be something as simple as a fouled spark plug which is easily repaired. Nobody is going to fly with an engine they have doubts about, and several more flights were made and there's a good chance the engine was checked out thoroughly if the plane went in for its annual inspection during that time.

Because he aborted a flight due to "engine trouble" is meaningless if you don't know the nature of why. I've aborted lots of flights due to "engine trouble" and I've never experience an in-flight engine failure.

Crashes due to engine problems are rare because aircraft engines are extremely reliable. Pilot error is a much more common cause. Engine problems are also relatively easy to detect postmortem.

[lala_rawraw]

228. see my post below

it is not just that he had engine problems a few months before. it is what witnesses told me about the behavior of the plane and the full throttle engine noise as he nose dived - as though it was suicide. one guy actually told me that initially as he watched this, he thought the pilot was trying to kill himself. but when he noticed that the pilot cut the engine and started climb, he figured that he had a close call. until, suddenly the engine went full throttle again and then the crash. so not just the engine problems of the previous flight. but the fact that multiple witness accounts all describe the engine as full throttle and connell only seemingly gaining control when the engine cut out/he turned it off. as soon as the engine went on again, it went into full throttle straight away.

honestly, i am no expert. you are on these issues. if you don't think engine trouble, then i defer to you. but then it leaves a whole load of questions that cannot be answered with the thesis that it was disorientation as he was trying to correct which caused the accident.

[MajorChode]

242. It's all speculation at this point

I'm just saying what I believe to be the most probable given the amount of information I have (which certainly isn't as much as the NTSB has right now).

Here is what I can at least make out from the available information:

Connell appears to have made some very bad decisions. Attempting to make a flight into that airport with strong icing potential was a bad idea for his aircraft. Whether or not there was actually icing doesn't change the fact that it was a bad idea to begin with. You don't fly a single engine plane into conditions like that, even if it does have deicing equipment. Also failing to break off the obviously bad approach clearly calls his judgment into question.

[lala_rawraw]

47. not so...

He was not warned to avoid flying and he did not postpone 2 flights as a result. He abandoned 1 flight because he experienced engine problems. I confirmed that with his wife before he died many months later. There was no other confirmed aborted flight and there were no canceled flights. There was never a threat on his person that I am aware of. The threat is - as I understand it - more like using the DOJ to go after him. That is not only plausible, I think it is probably likely. Just fyi:)

[sabra]

66. hey lala... so what are your thoughts with this latest report saying his

sisters question the "official story"?

:hi:

[lala_rawraw]

97. well, it makes perfect sense...

I am sorry... this will be long. But just humor me:)

##

If I had a brother and he led a double life in which he did not tell me or anyone in the family - including his wife - that he was being questioned in relation to an alleged crime, I would be thinking WTF has been going on all these years? What did my brother actually do? And if he did nothing, why would he not tell us about what was going on? Then, add to that his sudden accident and I am finding out about his double life ONLY after his death. I would have a good many questions as well. That is my take on this article.

A few more points I would like to make regarding some issues I had with the sourcing and some of the comments made. I hope no one minds.

First, I think Cliff Arneback has gone into crazyland because of the claims he is making. There is plenty to question here and plenty of strange things that went down, believe me, I know. But NO ONE knows for sure that he was murdered and for Arenbeck to say so as a matter of fact is negligent and weakens his position in terms of pushing this story to the MSM. No one will touch something like that. People can have their own opinions and people in a position of influence in this story can share their opinions quietly. But to share opinions such as certainty and to do so without providing a shred of support is incredibly irresponsible. He is killing his own case.

Second, Madsen's reporting on this is way off the mark - and that is me being polite. There are only a handful of people talking around this story, and only after some serious time spent convincing them to talk. Madsen claiming that Connell was told not to fly by a close friend is not only contrary to actual facts, but also would suggest that upon arrival, he managed to locate a Connell friend who was willing to tell him this straight away.

I know who was down there. There was only a handful of reporters on this story and we all bumped into each other because we had a very small pool to work with. McClatchy was there for example. Others were there. Madsen was NOT there. But more importantly, NO ONE I talked to said that they were Madsen's source. And, I know for a fact that 1 flight of the 2 suspicious flights, was aborted, not canceled. I know, because I was talking to Mrs. Connell a few days after and so I asked her about it. He had engine trouble. There are documents that support he took the plain in for maintenance afterwords as well. The second suspect flight - that is, a flight in which he appears to have gone on a 10 minute flight only around the airport, was not a canceled flight either. Nor do we know if it was aborted. What we have heard is that he often had meetings in the "air" which is not uncommon. So, no friends were Madsen's source and the actual facts around each flight contradict him.

Yet that claim has made it into the myth of Connell's crash story.

Third, Fetzer's assertions are ridiculous. We don't know enough about what Hersh is saying. He himself has said he is holding it for his book. How then can Fetzer go off and question deaths as possible connections to a program we know nothing about?

I think the article in general is excellent. Heather lives in la-la-land. And I am not sure I would do differently if I were her. But there are plenty of source documents and reports that should have been part of that article. Not the least of which was my long article on the crash itself. Here is a snip from this very long article:

"Capt. Geisner expressed considerable frustration during several Raw Story interviews over what he alleges was the withholding of critical details by authorities.

"While en route to the fire, I asked dispatch to learn the size of the plane and the number of souls on board," Geisner explained. “This was not provided us."

Such details allow fire department officials to determine whether additional equipment is needed and if a wider search and rescue is required. Within fifteen minutes of the crash, after officials from Akron-Canton Airport had arrived on the scene, Geisner again sought to confirm the number of passengers.

"After calls were made I was told that the ATC was 'all in lockdown,' and that they said 'we can't release that information,'" Geisner said.

Todd Laps, Fire Chief of the Akron-Canton airport fire department and a liaison to the Transportation Security Administration and the Air Traffic Control, echoed Geisner’s account.

"I had some phone calls placed to see if I could get that number . It didn't come in a timely enough fashion," Laps said"
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Foul_play_not_suspected_in_GOP_0113.html

Now, why would the reporter link to Fetzer and Madsen instead of this? Perhaps he did not have much time for research on it. He did a very good and fair job with his piece and I was very impressed by his cautious style in dealing with such a topic. That can be difficult without sounding apologetic. But my god, Fetzer, Madsen, and Arnebeck have all but made the story a den of crazies. There are serious questions here. But conclusions based on sparse evidence are not questions and that is the gist of what bothers me about the sourcing used.

Sorry for the length.

[BlueMTexpat]

151. Thank you for your excellent reporting

and your specific comments about this piece.

I wish that more journalists were like you. We would have a much better informed populace.

:hi: :thumbsup:

[truedelphi]

152. I have noticed a number of times that Madsen says some really exciting

And unusual things, but then he never substantiates many of them. I remember, for instance, in relationship to the election being stolen in 2004, he had this elaborate money scheme, and basically the same sack of ill begotten funds that had been used to fund the Contras was the same sack of ill begotten funds that was used to help along the election theft so many years later. That makes it all tie in very nicely, but hardly makes it plausible. Especially given his reluctance (or inability) to source his claims.

[lala_rawraw]

230. right

and now the myth of the sabotage warnings are forever part of the Connell crash. it makes trying to get other people interested in the story very difficult, because they see so much crap around it, they don't want to get tarred with it. i have already been called a conspiracy theorist, even though i have yet to claim any conspiracy. so this is already a difficult story. to then damage it more by saying what Arneback had, and including Fetzer and Madsen as source materials, pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of anyone ever taking this story seriously.

that is sad, because i really want people digging into it. but i am done with it. it is impossible at this point to get more than we already got. i mean from sneaking into the hanger where the plane was held to take photos of it, to forcing the funeral home to admit that they had gotten the laptop, there is really no one left to annoy and no leads left to follow. but if there were, the kind of crap Arneback is throwing around makes me cringe and makes me ask "do I really want to be associated with this?" that is why i keep trying to remove the myths and continue to ask people to stick to what we know, because this thing otherwise will be so radioactive, no one will touch it. including me.

[troubleinwinter]

105. (dupe)

[troubleinwinter]

106. But Lala, unrepentant convicted serial bomber Brett Kimberlin submitted a sworn statement that he'd

received information that Connell had his life threatened.

What do you mean, "There was never a threat on his person"? Your "friend", serial bomber, Brett Kimberlin's sworn statement of having received and transmitted the threat is attached to a court document submitted to the court by Arnebeck, and you know it.

I thought you were on top of this?

Did Kimberlin lie about the threat, as you seem to imply?

Did Kimberlin, a convicted perjurer, submit a perjured statement to the court? Did Arnebeck know that Kimberlin was a convicted perjurer and serial bomber when he submitted the statement to the court?

Please explain.

[lala_rawraw]

108. wait...

is that 2 or 3 degrees of separation? because if i meet someone a few times in the course of my work and that person years later makes a statement, i am clearly required to support what they and explain it to others... that about right? perhaps you can tell us why you are obsessed with this man? that i find really interesting. you go from Daily Kos to DU and all you do is talk about this guy. i am curious, why?

[troubleinwinter]

112. OK, lala. Let's for now pretend that you did not vouch for him and claim him a friend.

Do you claim to have been following the case and are unaware of Kimberlin's affidavit about the threats against Connell submitted to the court?

Larisa, I thought you were an "investigative journalist"... I have never posted on Kos in my life. 'All I do is talk about this guy'? My four and a half years and nine thousand posts on DU are about this freak? Why make up this silly junk? Why don't you simply address the questions posed about the subject at hand instead of diverting?

You claim you were unaware of any threats, have claimed Kimberlin as a personal friend, are supposedly an investigative journalist on this story. Did Arnebeck know Kimberlin was a convicted perjuror a the time K's statement was submitted to the court? Did Arnebeck know that K was a convicted serial bomber? You are today, despite Kimberlin's sworn statement, unaware of Kimberlin's allegations of threats against Connell?

Could we please talk about the people involved in the case, rather than imaginings about me?

I find Kimberlin's claims and involvement in the case interesting. Why don't you?

[lala_rawraw]

114. so you won't answer the question?

as for talking about the people involved in the case, you don't seem interested, save for one person who you are obsessed with but won't explain why. i have no imagining about you. you make yourself perfectly clear. your imaginings about others, however, are fascinating. truly, i am very curious. and stop calling me Lala as though we had mutual respect and affection for one another. you are a person interested in something, but whatever it is, it has nothing to do with the truth. of that i have no doubt.

have a good night in K land.

[troubleinwinter]

116. Have you LOOKED-

"There was never a threat on his person that I am aware of."

You are claiming that you are entirely unaware of Kimberlin's sworn declaration submitted to the court by Arnebeck???!! Wherein Kimberlin swore to have recieved information about threats against Connell??!!

How can this be?

I find the knowlege of such threat by Kimberlin to be of extreme interest. You do not (or are unaware of it). Arnebeck also found it of interest enough to submit a sworn declaration to the court.

You are more interested in me than the case and subject that you are supposedly reporting about.

Would you very much mind looking into the sworn declaration of Brett Kimberlin submitted to the court by Cliff Arnebeck relating to the receipt of information about threats against Connell?

Or would you prefer to talk about me?

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[troubleinwinter]

134. If I can manage to try to dig up a "question" in this nonsense,

beyond your diversion asserting that I am "obsessed" with your proclaimed vouching for the unrepentant convicted serial bomber, I will try to answer what I think is your question:

(Larisa)"...is that 2 or 3 degrees of separation? because if i meet someone a few times in the course of my work and that person years later makes a statement, i am clearly required to support what they and explain it to others... that about right?

Well, here are your own words:

"but I know Brett"

"Anyway, I know him. I vouch for him."

"I said, I vouch for him, take it or leave it."

"I said, I vouch for him"

Taken from this very worthwhile thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2358825#top

You apparently are close enough to "vouch" for him several times, but are unaware of his sworn declaration about threats against Connell, submitted to court by Arnebeck, a story you have been reporting on?!!!???

Golly gee! Maybe you should CALL Kimberlin (since you know him) and ASK him about the threats against Connell that he claimed under penalty of perjury to have been told of?

(As for the silliness about my calling you "lala", as do many others, some call me "trouble", for short. So what? I guess if you find this particularly interesting, which I do not, you would maybe wish to explain why you frequently address people as "hon". I think it's purely yet another diversion to avoid discussing the subject at hand.)

[Name removed]

136. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[olegramps]

157. Why don't you address what he has claimed?

[lala_rawraw]

179. i have...

the first 200 times he has claimed it... no joke, ask anyone who has followed this. he has no interest in the truth or facts. whatever his motive, and I think I know what it is, it is entirely personal and underhanded.

k?

[Name removed]

133. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Amerigus]

251. Kimberlin the source?

Hi, could you point me to the original source where you learned Brett Kimberlin was the source of the Rove threats against Connell? I'd like to relay that bit of info for OpEd News.

Also, do you know how Kimberlin would be considered close to the McCain campaign?

Thanks, Gus

[troubleinwinter]

210. Larisa, which way to you want it? What you said in December, or what you say now?

Larisa in December:

Sat, 2008-12-20
By Larisa Alexandrovna

I have been to Mr. Connell's home. Mr. Connell has confided that he was being threatened, something that his attorneys also told the judge in the Ohio election fraud case. When I met with Heather, his wife, I did so carefully because of the threats he was getting.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/38374

Not warned to avoid flying? Velvet Revolution claims that his life was in jeopardy in JULY, Arnebeck sought protective custody, and VR warned a close associate of Connell's not to fly. You have been unaware of all this???!!!

FROM VELVET REVOLUTION:

A tipster close to the McCain campaign disclosed to VR (Kimberlin) in July that Mr. Connell's life was in jeopardy and that Karl Rove had threatened him and his wife, Heather. VR's attorney, Cliff Arnebeck, notified the United States Attorney General , Ohio law enforcement and the federal court about these threats and insisted that Mr. Connell be placed in protective custody. VR also told a close associate of Mr. Connell's not to fly his plane because of another tip that the plane might be sabotaged.

A sworn declaration by Brett Kimberlin about having recieved a tip about the threats was submitted to the court (taken from court documents):

MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF PLAINTIFFS’ MOTION FOR EXPEDITED

HEARING AND MEMORANDUM IN OPPOSITION TO NONPARTY MICHAEL CONNELL’S MOTION TO QUASH

On July 19, 2008, two days after this news conference that was widely disseminated within the blogosphere, an anonymous tipster, describing himself as beingwithin the McCain Presidential campaign, reported that Rove had threatened Michael Connell for the apparent purpose of intimidating him from giving truthful testimony against Karl Rove. See Declaration of Brett Kimberlin, Exhibit B, ¶ 3.

http://www.velvetrevolution.us/images/Filed%20Memo%20in%20Support%20Pltf%20Motion.pdf

Kimberlin's sworn delcaration has seemingly now been sealed by the court, (though I read it when it was still available) :

Shortly after Connell was named as a potential witness in Arnebeck's lawsuit, (sic)Brett Kimberland (sic), co-founder of the democracy-watchdog website Velvet Revolution, received the first in a series of phone calls from an anonymous source who claimed to be a concerned citizen inside the McCain campaign. "We were told that there were 10 teams in play in 2004 across the country, in an effort to rig the election for Bush," says Kimberland. "The tipster told us that even though the players were no longer there, the setup still existed in Ohio."

When the tipster told them that Connell was being threatened by Rove, Arnebeck attempted to get federal protection for him. But none was provided. However, a federal judge allowed Arnebeck to depose Connell the day before the 2008 election. Connell's lawyers asked that all conversations relative to alleged intimidation by Rove be sealed by the court, a request the judge granted. The transcript of that deposition has not yet been made available, but Arnebeck discussed the meeting in detail for Scene. http://www.freetimes.com/stories/15/90/point-of-impact

Larisa now:

He was not warned to avoid flying

There was never a threat on his person that I am aware of

Then Larisa, you seem utterly, completely unware of the subject you write about, or you are calling Kimberlin a liar (well, he IS a convicted perjuror). It doesn't explain how you knew something in December and un-know it now.

[No Elephants]

93. Christians rationalizing things like that indicate a cult.

[L. Coyote]

219. Correction. Mike Connell said there was no illegal activity.

All the rest is speculation from the litigants who are unable to make their case, it seems.

[defendandprotect]

11. Overall, we have a failure of officials to acknowledge the political violence

that has occurred in America over almost 50 years now -- !!!

That is the only way that the right can come to power -- by violence and
stolen elections --

Keep in mind that the electronic voting machines began to come in around
the time of the passage of The Voting Rights Act--!!!

The large computers came in first around mid-1960's -- used by corporate-media
to report BUT mainly to predict and call elections.

The machines immediately produced crashes after which there were odd jumps in
votes for unpopular candidates and dives in votes of the most popular candidates.

The electronic voting machines began to come in during the late-1960's --
and we well know their history! This enabled them to steal larger blocs of
votes from greater distances.

IMO, this makes every election with a Repug "win" suspect -- going back to
Humphrey/Nixon.

[insanity]

67. A little far fetched?

I agree that electronic-voting machines probably have been used in vote-stealing schemes, but I can't really buy that every republican win since Nixon was an account of pure election fraud.

I could give more plausible reasons for most Republican victories (except 2000, which was stolen openly by a partisan supreme court), and most of them boil down to the rise of Southern Whites and the collapse of support in the Democratic Party from its usual base of groups (for instance, abortion-only Catholic voters)

Remember that both parties have always cheated.

[defendandprotect]

113. The "Southern Strategy" didn't work as well as you've heard . ..

Carter, for instance, carried all but one of the Confederate states --

Additionally, Catholic women have as many abortions as other women --

Certainly, LBJ cheated --- "Landslide Lyndon" --

However, the computers gave the GOP the ability to steal much greater blocs

of votes -- and not have to be on site or hands on.

In fact, I think that many of us would agree that Obama probably won by a much

larger margin than reported.

Re 2000, I think that became so noisy because their steals weren't sufficient --

And 2004 was also very obvious.

The ability to report and call elections gave great power to the corporate-media.

Two reporters began investigating computer voting in the late 1960's ....

You can read about it here --

James & Kenneth Collier: Votescam: Contents
VOTESCAM. THE STEALING OF AMERICA. JAMES M. COLLIER. KENNETH E COLLIER ... Votescam: The Stealing Of America. All rights reserved. ...www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm - Cached

[Miss_Underestimated]

81. self delete

[diva77]

83. Add intimidation of elections officials to the list - Kevin Shelley, Ion Sancho, Bruce Funk

all 3 suffered consequences for exposing unfavorable truths about computerized "voting" systems

[bobthedrummer]

13. K&R

[Graybeard]

14. The RW has perfected "murder by plane".

It seems to be their favorite M.O. Way too many to be just coincidence.

[valerief]

15. Too convenient to be an accident. Would a Mafia boss do it? Then Rove would. nt

[Diclotican]

20. valerief

valerief

My guess is that even a "Old fashioned" Mafia boss would not do this - I guess we might se it in a Maifa Movie, but not in real life.. The new mafia, specialy from Balkan and so on I am not that sure about - they are posible to everything...

But mr Rove is a man I would withouth doubt would do EVERYTHING to keep himself out of danger, any danger that is.. And I for one have a feeling this is NO accidence.. If they wanted to take a inqurity into this.... I would not doubt that they would find the dirty hands of mr Rove involved in some degree.. Either himself, or someone on his order...

Diclotican

[valerief]

22. Didn't mean to offend the Mafia by comparing it to Karl Rove. nt

[Diclotican]

30. valerief

valerief

he he, no problem.. Even in the Mob, they tend to have _some_ rules to follow.. Karl Rove have just one rule, protect himself from prison time...

But someday one would be there, to put him where he belong... behind bars..

It is actually a shame mr Rove have ancestry from Norway... His Grandfather was emigrating from Norway to US... And he have still ancestors living here.. I have a feeling they are not that proud about this man is acting.. Or if they care abut it at all..

Diclotican

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

31. Hahahahaaa!!

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[blm]

53. Mafia WISHES they had the power and reach of BFEE. They're not even close.

.

[Mnemosyne]

75. BFEE makes the Mafia look like Brownie Scouts. n/t

[patrice]

16. People who start un-necessary Wars ARE capable of A - N - Y - T - H - I - N - G.

[valerief]

17. People who starts wars are capable of anything.

The 'unnecessary' is unnecessary.

:shrug:

[Vidar]

19. How many case of "death by plane" do we have now? Obviously this

one & Paul Wellstone. What other ones?

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. Ritchie Valens, Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper, John Denver, Randy Rhoads, Ricky Nelson,

The 1970 Marshall University Football Team, three members of Lynyrd Skynyrd, Frank Sinatra's mom, Steve Fossett, the 2000-2001 Oklahoma State University basketball team, Patsy Cline, and Knute Rockne.

[happydreams]

34. Killing artists, entertainers and athletes. nt

[Vidar]

35. I was looking for cases where foul play is suspected, not just just small plane accidents.

[Occam Bandage]

40. You mean like Wellstone, where foul play is only "suspected" by tinfoilers?

Small planes crash all the goddamn time.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

44. Methinks thou doth protest too much...

:nopity:

[stopbush]

82. Yep. There's about 200 small plane crashes a year in the USA

and most of them don't have fatalities. 9 out of 10 are caused by pilot error, the pilot losing control of the plane.

This one sounds like an accident to me.

[MajorChode]

123. Not only do they crash all the time

Many of them happen to unknown people that the government or the GOP has no vested interest in terminating. Imagine that.

Of course, they could always just be fodder for the grand conspiracy so that few get suspicious about the others.

[deutsey]

50. There was a participant in the Iran-Contra scandal who was killed in a plane crash

Can't remember his name. Nir? I think he used to be with Israeli intelligence.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

61. Ron Brown - Clinton Commerce Secretary

you decide.

http://www.geocities.com/happy1215us/

[Mnemosyne]

84. Kelley, Hatfield... goes on and on. Kitty Kelley claimed she had never had such

difficulty getting info/dirt on someone for a book. People told her, "I want to live to see my grandchildren."

[jberryhill]

166. ....but you have to take into account the general aviation fatality rate

...in order to figure out what is "suspicious".

Commercial aviation is outstandingly safe.

General aviation is another story.

[disndat]

187. TWA Flight 700

over Lockerbie, Scotland and United Airlines over Greenland, and another over Far Rockaway on the morning when the 4 largest Newspapers published their (cover up) report and findings on the Florida '00 elections. All under Republican administrations.

[hugo_from_TN]

41. Don't forget Payne Stewart.

I've heard that Rove really hated those "Plus Four" pants that he wore.

[SkyIsGrey]

71. Just for speculation,..

Take Ritchie Valens for example.

"Ritchie Valens, along with fellow passangers Buddy Holly and The Big Bopper, having departed Fargo, North Dakota, crashed shortly after takeoff into a field killing all on board."

Nothing really special about that. Most likely caused by wing icing, because of the light snow conditions at the time.

Just for example only, the report continues.

"It was reviled by authorities that Valens and fellow passenger Buddy Holly were scheduled to testify in an upcoming corruption case against
a recording label with suspected mod ties."

If this actually occurred, it would probably raise at least a little suspicion. It could just be coincidence, though it would be prudent to at least look into it.

[Jackpine Radical]

79. Oh, shit. I never heard that before.

Aw, Goddam. I auctioned off my entire tinfoil hat collection after January 20. I guess I'm gonna have to make some more.

[Jackpine Radical]

76. Otis Redding...Sure, we get your point.

But some of the political ones were just so incredibly convenient...

[Thothmes]

87. Yep, the bfee got them all.

[Algorem]

88. they were going to kill Elvis,but they decided to draft him instead

he was already used to taking orders from a Colonel anyway

[Sheets of Easter]

94. Aaliyah, Jim Reeves, Otis Redding and the Bar-Kays also come to mind.

[jberryhill]

167. Jim Croce

[happydreams]

29. Ted Kennedy in 1964 damn near killed. The WR Grace executives in 2003. ......

Wellstones predecessor Carnahan in 2000, and Litton from same Senate race in 1976. Litton's death moved Ashcroft into State AG office to replace Danforth. WR Grace execs were linked to Wellstone via the asbestos issue. John Tower of Iran-Contra. Salem Bin Laden and four other Saudi Princes around the time of 9/11 died mysteriously.

[Jackpine Radical]

77. JFK Jr...

[happydreams]

193. There was an investigative journalist...I think Kris Milligan...but not sure...

who did a lot on this.



WAS JFK JR. MURDERED?JFK Jr. was the only Kennedy to ever acknowledge a conspiracy in his father's death. He not only acknowledged it, he published an article by Oliver Stone in ...

www.geocities.com/northstarzone/JFKJR.html

[suzanner]

46. over a dozen Democrats and 1 or 2 Republicans...

that is congressmen, senators is weird small plane crashes- look it up!

[patrice]

21. People who make deals with the Enemy, as in 1969-70 against Johnson and again in 1980 against Carter

Will do A - N - Y - T - H - I - N - G.

[Enthusiast]

80. And this is a point people forget.

And they WILL do anything.

[patrice]

128. Yeah! and I left out Iran-Contragate.

That stuff's documented and on the public "books" and yet, to most people, it's as though none of it ever happened.

[Enthusiast]

158. The MSM acts as if it never happened.

And, as far as popular culture is concerned it does not count. Unbelievable.

[katty]

26. we all want answers, yet another plane crash

[global1]

28. Hey MSM That's Bored With Obama's Press Conferences - Here's Something Interesting That You Can ....

follow-up on - but I bet you won't touch it. This is your chance to do some real investigative reporting.

Ain't if funny how fast this story died after the crash.

I'm glad that his sisters are trying to get it out there again.

[Initech]

32. I always suspected something fishy about that crash...

Anyone remember George Dumbass looking way too confident about his "win" in 2004 not even a mere 3 hours before the results were announced? This could explain a lot of it.

[Botany]

38. In November 2004 MIke Connell sent the head state I.T. guy home from ..

..... Sec. of State Ken Blackwell's office in Columbus, @ 8:00 PM that night.
Around midnight he shipped the vote data to Smartech a company in
Chattanooga, TN that acted as the server because it had been "outsourced"
because the Sec. of State's computer were not "up to" handling the data.

Samrtech had 3 other accounts; bush/Cheney 04, the RNC, and gwb43.com

Screen Captures from the Sec. of State's web site that night

Cincinnati


Toledo


the guess is that the program Mr. Connell was running was using a third party candidate's as "a holding ground" for votes to be
flipped later as they were needed.

[Initech]

49. 1 county - 0 precincts?

:shrug:

Wow this does add up.

[jsamuel]

58. those are my screen captures, all times central

[Algorem]

33. seems suspicious thet there seems to be a conspiracy to turn both

of his sisters into conspiracy nuts.who is behind this?and who's behind them?

[inwiththenew]

36. Some of you guys sounds as ridiculous as the right wingers

When they talk about all the people who died that were connected to the Clinton's. So is this guy our Vince Foster?

[omega minimo]

55. so go back to them

[Dinger]

103. Indeed (nt)

54 posts, wow.

[MajorChode]

248. Were you a RWer when you were at 54 posts?

Do you accuse all with a low post count of being one, or just those who don't buy into the leftwing tinfoilhat theories?

[Mithreal]

62. Vince Foster's death was a suicide. nt

[inwiththenew]

64. I am aware of that,

but that didn't stop the wing nuts from calling it a murder or a cover up. This guy death is an accident and some people are saying the same thing. For everyone calling this a murder, you do realize that statistically general aviation is more dangerous than driving in a car and you are about 40-50 (can't remember the exact number) times more likely to die in a general aviation flight than a commercial flight.

[lala_rawraw]

104. let's be accurate...

it is neither a murder nor an accident. we don't know yet what it is. it could be suicide for all we know. i agree that speculation can get a bit nutty. i fully agree - read my post upthread. but, to claim for sure that this was an accident is also a bit nutty in my opinion, since we don't have all the facts and since the investigation is still on going.

[inwiththenew]

107. Fair enough

I should have said that it is more than likely an accident. From the reports that have been mentioned it sounds like he had problems on the approach and had to retry it.

[lala_rawraw]

111. No worries...

Listen, I am with you on the nutty stuff. I am livid that Arneback is making these claims as certain truths. It is absolutely negligent to make those statements and not provide supporting materials. I want to know who the hell told him this as a matter of fact. How could anyone know such a thing unless they were there? That said, just to explain about the crash.

I spoke to the first responders (2 fire chiefs, state troopers, police, ambulance), the funeral home even (good lord) and witnesses who watched the plane go down. As far as i can tell from all the data collected, if it was an accident, it was as a result of mechanical issues with the plane. His instruments were fine. There was no icing. He did not have a heart attack (which I thought for a while). But the witnesses say that the plane appeared to be fighting with itself... its engine was doing crazy things (their words, not mine). He nose dived almost into the ground and got control of the plane and climbed, then the engine did that "crazy sound" and he nose dived into the ground and crashed. So it sounds like an engine issue based on the witness accounts. There are issues though around the crash that raise questions that I have never gotten an answer for. Read this article, it is the best play-by-play on what happened during the crash:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Foul_play_not_suspected_in_GOP_0113.html

One of the following is likely what happened:
1. Accident: if so, most likely engine problems/mechanical
2. Suicide: if so, the pressure of the case and lying to his family (although he is Catholic. he was holding a rosary when they found his body)
3. Murder: if so, not sure how as I am not expert on such things.

none of these have been ruled out to my satisfaction yet, but based on talking to people who were close to him, #2 is less of a possibility - although still not adequately ruled out.

[MajorChode]

249. It's not even in the same ballpark as claiming it WASN'T an accident

How many GA crashes AREN'T accidents? If someone claims for sure that it's an accident, then they might be a bit premature as ALL the facts aren't in, but many of them already point in that direction.

However, if someone wants to claim for sure that it was sabotage because Connell might have known something that could get Rove in trouble and therefore Rove must have offed him with an "EMF gun", we're talking about a whole different class of fruitcake. And indeed they are cut from the same cloth as the Vince Foster conspiracy theorists.

[L. Coyote]

220. Indeed! Welcome to DU.

[inwiththenew]

252. Thanks

Thanks to MajorChode as well. I have lurked here for a while so I am aware that I am going to be considered a right winger to some when they don't agree with me until I have more post to my account.

[Dinger]

37. I Don't Want To "Move On," I Want These MURDERERS To Pay!

Call it justice.

[Deep13]

48. What?!

So, prominent Democrats recently killed while flying:

Mel Carnahan 2000, Paul Wellstone 2002, JFK Jr. and his sister and now this. Say, Barrack ole buddy, maybe you can be one of those presidents who travels by ship.

[Lena inRI]

56. Edit:JFK ,Jr, wife and her sister, NOT his sister!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/jfkjr/stories/kennedy072299.htm



:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Deep13]

74. I see. Off the top of my head. nt

[NoSheep]

72. JFK Jr and his wife.

[mn9driver]

51. Link to the NTSB preliminary report.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=CEN09FA099&rpt=p

...and a link to the aircraft itself when it was for sale a few years ago:
http://www.pilotmarket.com/aircrafts/Aircraft_For_Sale/Single_Engine_Piston/Piper/Saratoga/listing-12862-98450036.html

The Saratoga is a pretty capable single engine instrument airplane, but this guy only had 510 hours total time and it was at night. Approach control asked him a couple of times if he wanted to break off the approach because he was doing such a bad job of it. Finally, he did break it off and declared an emergency. Then he lost control and crashed. The engine and controls were apparently working just fine.

This will turn out to be either ice, or pilot disorientation/impairment of some kind. 510 hours is not a lot of experience to dig yourself out of a bad vertigo encounter at night. It's also quite possible that he was picking up ice in the dark and didn't even know it. It's very unlikely that this was sabotage, unless Rove can control the weather, too.

[lala_rawraw]

98. ah no...

are you looking at the correct plane?

[lala_rawraw]

99. NOT ice...

NTSB ruled out ice already. It was not night. It was close to 6:00 PM EST. What are you reading? These facts are well known.

[mn9driver]

115. Sorry. I read factual information and I back everything up. Like this:

The NTSB has not ruled out ice. The aircraft was in a cloud deck at 3000 feet MSL. The ceiling above the airport was reported at 700 feet. Freezing rain had fallen earlier in the day.
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCAK/2008/12/19/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Akron-Canton+Regional&req_state=OH&req_statename=Ohio

Here is the full METAR report from two minutes before the crash:
METAR KCAK 192251Z 30011KT 9SM BKN005 OVC010 01/M01 A2978 RMK AO2 SLP095 T00111006

The cloud deck was actually 500 feet broken, 1000 feet overcast.
The surface temperature was 1 degree C. The saturated adiabatic lapse rate puts the temperature at his altitude at around -2 degrees C. An aircraft flying in clouds at this temperature could easily pick up ice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapse_rate

Sunset in Akron Ohio on December 19, 2008 was 1700 local time. The accident occurred at 1753. It was dark.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=415&month=12&year=2008&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

The accident aircraft registration number was N9299N. The FAA aircraft registry shows this aircraft was a PA-32R-301T. That is a Piper Saratoga--the exact same individual aircraft that is in the "for sale" link in my previous post. Those pictures are of that actual aircraft that crashed that night. The aircraft was registered to SIERRA-NOVEMBER AVIATION INC
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=9299N&cmndfind.x=12&cmndfind.y=19

SIERRA-NOVEMBER AVIATION INC. was Michael Connell. His company. His airplane.
http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/reports/rwservlet?imgc&Din=200426001614

These are facts. They are established. They are documented from multiple, completely independent sources. Believe what you want.

[lala_rawraw]

119. Additional reading...

The CAK weather observations for the following times are:

1735: wind - 280 degrees at 9 knots; visibility - 10 miles; sky condition - broken 700 feet above ground level (agl), overcast 1,400 feet agl; temperature – 1 degree Celsius (C); dew point - -1 degree C; altimeter 29.77 inches of mercury

1751: wind - 300 degrees at 11 knots; visibility - 9 miles; sky condition - broken 500 feet agl, overcast 1,000 feet agl; temperature – 1 degree C; dew point - -1 degree C; altimeter 29.78 inches of mercury

1809: wind - 300 degrees at 10 knots; visibility – 2 1/2 miles, mist; sky condition - overcast 400 feet agl, overcast 1,000 feet agl; temperature – 1 degree C; dew point - -1 degree C; altimeter 29.78 inches of mercury

<snip>

I have marked in bold below where the ATC noted there was NO ICING:

On December 19, 2008, about 1753, a Piper PA-32R-301T, N9299N, received substantial damage on impact with terrain during a precision approach to runway 23. A post crash fire then ensued. The airplane impacted the front lawn of a vacant house about two miles east-northeast from Akron-Canton Regional Airport (CAK), Akron, Ohio. Night instrument meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The pilot was fatally injured and there were no ground injuries. The flight departed from College Park Airport (CGS) College Park, Maryland, about 1531 and was returning to CAK at the time of the accident.

During the approach to CAK, N9299N asked whether there were any reports of icing to which air traffic control (ATC) responded that there were no reports. ATC then instructed N9299N to provide a report of icing if encountered. No reports were received by N9299N. Preliminary radar data shows that the airplane maintained assigned headings and altitudes while en route to CAK.

The airplane received radar vectors to the instrument landing system (ILS) approach to runway 23. The airplane was vectored to intercept the approach about two miles from the outer marker. The airplane was inbound from the outer marker when ATC advised N9299N that it was left of course. ATC asked if N9299N would like to be resequenced and N9299N responded by transmitting “correcting.” The airplane altitude was still about 3,200 feet (the intermediate segment altitude for the approach is 3,200 feet). ATC then advised N9299N that it was “well left of the localizer” and if it would like to be resequenced. N9299N responded by transmitting that it would “like to correct.” N9299N was about 2 ½ miles from the airport when it then transmitted if it could execute a 360-degree turn. ATC then instructed N9299N to climb and maintain 3,000 feet and queried N9299N’s present heading. N9299N transmitted, “heading due north and climbing.” N9299N then declared an emergency.

A witness reported that he was outside of his home when he first heard a “loud” engine sound from a small aircraft. The sound was coming from the north and sounded as though the pilot was trying to accelerate “rapidly.” Suddenly, the witness saw two bright lights coming almost nose first toward the ground with the engine “roaring.” Based upon the witness’ view of the lights, he assumed the airplane was flying west to east. He lost sight of the airplane when it descended below a tree line.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20081223X12815&key=1

"So far the investigation shows that the plane had no issues with flight control and there was no icing, Serchak said. The plane’s propeller had damage that indicates the engine was operating when the crash occurred."

http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x16586786/Federal-agencies-examining-deadly-Lake-Township-plane-crash

while the flight hours are correct, they were last updated in 07.


you said "night" and early evening is not the same thing as "night"

[MajorChode]

124. ATC is not NTSB

ATC sits either in a very dark room or inside a control tower. They only possible way they know if there is icing or not is if a pilot tells them. Icing conditions are sometimes very fleeting and unpredictable. It's very difficult for the NTSB to make positive icing determinations in such cases because the post crash fire has a tendency to destroy the evidence.

All that being said, I personally don't believe icing was a factor in the Connell crash. It appears as if Connell kept trying to salvage a bad approach. This is evident all the way through even though the controller was trying to advise him to break off the approach. What is really telling is Connell's request to execute a 360. I don't mean to piss on a dead man's grave, but no competent instrument pilot would ever even request such a bonehead move, much less attempt it. I suspect he simply lost it in IMC conditions and got into an unusual attitude from which he couldn't recover.

[lala_rawraw]

177. I am of the opinion

That the problem was mechanical and that the engine had serious issues. The witnesses I talked to, who have lived near the airport for 20+ years and one is a pilot even, said they had never heard anything like it. The engine was, according to them, accelerating the closer he got to the ground. So I think the engine is where the problem was and I think it took him by surprise given his response.

NTSB investigator told us that he did not believe it was icing either, but that the investigation is not complete, so he cannot say 100%. But thus far, they all agree there was no icing and other pilots around that time have also said that they did not have icing issues.

[MajorChode]

188. I wouldn't put much stock in witness accounts of the engine noise

Few people have actually got to hear what an aircraft sounds like when it's about to auger in, so it would have naturally sounded differently than anything they would have likely heard before. Connell was almost certainly making adjustments to his engine while he was trying to recover. He could have been either throttling up or down and/or adjusting the pitch of the prop shortly before the crash and many recovery procedures dictate such actions.

[lala_rawraw]

203. why the nose-dive?

not once, but twice? could the engine issue have played a role in that?

[MajorChode]

206. possibly, but not likely

If the engine had problems, it wouldn't cause him to simply nose dive even if it failed completely because he would have recognized it immediately and selected a glide angle that would keep him from stalling. You have plenty of time to react before that happens.

From the NTSB report, it sounded to me as if he had started to make steep turns in order to try and correct back onto the ILS. Making > standard rate turns in IMC is a recipe for death. What can happen is you can quickly find yourself in a very steep bank (90 degrees or so) or you can even find yourself upside down. When faced with such an unusual attitude, sometimes pilots will panic trying to recover. If you find yourself in a steep climb and either in or rapidly approaching a stall, the recovery procedure is to apply max power while you lower the nose and straighten the wing. If a stall occurs under such conditions, the chances of it developing into a spin are extremely high, and then you have a different set of recovery procedures. If you find yourself in a steep dive, the recovery is to chop power, level the wings, and pull the nose up. Instrument pilots should practice those recovery procedures on a regular basis, but many don't. If he had picked the wrong recovery procedure, or just flat out panicked it could have caused the accident. Getting into a spin at low altitude almost always results in death anyway, even for the most proficient of pilots.

[lala_rawraw]

227. the

witness accounts, various - not just one, say that he was accelerating as his plane dived. one person said that he was seemingly fighting with the engine, which was making a loud noise and speeding up. the same witness said that he appeared to have gotten control of the plane as soon as the engine cut out, and then the engine started up again and he started to climb. then this witness says that as he was climbing, the strange engine noise started again and the plane nose dived again.

other witnesses too said that the engine was just accelerating at a remarkable rate. one is a pilot who lives near the airport. there was another crash a few years back he told us that he watched. he said he had seen crashes in other places as well and had himself nearly crashed a few times. he said something was absolutely wrong with the engine.

plus, when I had met with Heather in September, right after the 1st aborted flight, i asked her why the flight was aborted. she told me that he was having engine problem that day. i checked with plane maint... and he actually did have it serviced.

so the previous engine issue only a few months before the crash and the witness accounts is why i think the engine is the issue. i cannot imagine why anyone would speed up if they are disoriented. he had additional battery powered instruments with him. so even if his instruments on the plane were not working, he had a back-up.

why would he accelerate twice? the first time, nose-diving and then turning the engine off and getting control of the plane. turning the engine back on, then accelerating into a nose dive? this is what the witnesses say they saw happen and is noted in the accident file at the state troopers HQ. he was not drunk or drugged according to the medical examiner. he had enough sense to hold on to the rosary and his computer (because if you go to heaven, you will certainly need your laptop). that suggests he had time amid the disorientation to get those things in hand. i know i have said this a good many times and that you have already disagreed with it, but i really think it is engine problems at the heart of this crash. it would answer many of these questions.

the investigators told us that Connell said more than declaring an emergency. but they declined to tell us what that "more" was as they are still investigating. perhaps he alerted them that something was wrong with his engine after he realized that something was wrong and confirmed that it was not icing?

[MajorChode]

239. I wouldn't list any of that as unusual

When a plane enters a steep dive, the engine is at the mercy of the propeller. Even if the engine is developing no power, the prop is still windmilling and causing the engine to rotate. Both the prop and the engine are directly connected (at least in aircraft like the one Connell was flying). So if the airspeed increases greatly (which happens in a dive), the engine can and will accelerate to extremely high RPM. So if he were alternating between a steep dive and recovery (as is common in such accidents) that would fully explain the noises.

As far as his months previous "engine trouble" that would have been recorded in the aircraft logbooks if it was serviced. Most pilots do not fly with their aircraft logbooks on board, so in all probability the NTSB has them.

[mn9driver]

126. No offense taken, but I will clarify a couple of things:

1. "No reported icing" is not the same thing as "no icing". I have been in icing more times than I can count when it wasn't "reported". Often, "my" ice is the first ice that ATC knows about. I make a point of reporting it precisely because so many pilots do not.

2. I have been in the air at "official" sunset in the winter thousands of times. 53 minutes later, it is pitch DARK. It happens fast. In aviation terms, it is night. To see ice in those conditions you need to take a flashlight and shine it on a windshield wiper to see if it is building up on the exterior nut. That model of Saratoga does not have deicing equipment and would not have had an automated ice detector installed. Mr. Connell was having a lot of trouble flying the approach, so I seriously doubt that he was actively checking for ice.

I've been in the military flying, airline flying, flight instruction and accident investigation business for 28 years. I'm very confident that I understand very well what the conditions were that night for Mr. Connell. In my 17000 hours in the air, I've been in the same place many times. I have lost friends and coworkers to very similar circumstances. I have investigated similar accidents multiple times for the Navy and for my company. Unless someone can come up with hard evidence of sabotage, this really was just an accident, due either to pilot disorientation or icing, or both.

[lala_rawraw]

182. oh I am not

claiming this was not an accident. if you go throughout the thread, you will see me saying exactly that. we simply don't know because the investigation has not been completed. as for the rest, i appreciate your response and defer to your expertise on this as you clearly know what you are talking about. thanks for providing such a thoughtful response.

[Bluenorthwest]

161. Reading if FUNdamental!

What you state is not what is written. The ATC just says they had no report of ice, which is not the same as saying no ice. I no zero about this case, have no 'side' here, but I tell you, when I see someone spin a fact into a fiction, then bicker about the meaning of 'night' and 'evening' it is time to point out the irony.

[lala_rawraw]

184. the ATC

said no other pilots were reporting icing. the plane has de-icing capabilities installed as well. the NTSB also does not, per early analysis, believe it was icing. while it is true that the investigation is on going and so they have not officially released the cause of the crash. they have stated that they do not believe it is icing. i am of the opinion it is engine related, mechanical issues with the plane.

[lala_rawraw]

120. by the way

I did not mean to come off as rude. I realize I was typing in a hurry and so it may have seemed I was being rude. That was not my intention, because judging from your response, you appear to have taken it that way. Just wanted to say that.

[we can do it]

245. It Was DRY That Afternoon and Night, My Dad Lives In the Crash Neighborhood

He was outside most of the afternoon and left to come to my house just before the crash....

[omega minimo]

54. Excuse My Language

"Oh Jesus Fuckin Christ"

First look at home page today.

:evilfrown:

[judesedit]

57. Hope he left envelope to be opened on his death

There are many people who have died for what they knew, especially if it was thought it would become public. Don't be so naive. His wife is in denial, unfortunately, or...has reason to cover up the facts, as most repugs do. I pray he left the true facts of his knowledge, and possible assistance, in an envelope in a safety deposit box with the key in the hands of a very trusted and brave fellow whistle-blower. There are many out there that are speaking out all of the time about how they helped throw the election to Bush in 2004, and 2000 for that matter. Funny how anyone who's scheduled for a court appearance as a witness against Bushco suddenly dies in an accident or commits suicide, don't ya think?????? Wake up America!

[liberal N proud]

59. Way too many plane crashes of key people for them to be accidents

[BreweryYardRat]

90. Yeah. The numbers don't add up.

Some of them almost certainly were accidents, but the overall amount of fatal plane crashes among key people is very suspicious. Problem is, it's very difficult to tell the difference between an accident and sabotage.

[jberryhill]

229. You think nobodies travel on private planes?

Think about the general aviation population versus even the commercial aviation population.

[GreenTea]

60. Of course Rove & the republicans wanted Connell dead, he knew everything about the illegal

electronic voting machines and how they were programmed (Connell programmed them) for the Bush's & other republican wins...

The Connally Anomaly
Spoonamore notes that on election night in 2004, he observed what he calls the "Connally anomaly," in which eight Ohio counties that had been reporting a consistent ratio of Kerry votes to Bush votes suddenly changed at about 11 pm and began reporting results much more favorable to Bush. Election tallies in these counties, plus a few others, also showed the unlikely result of tens of thousands of voters choosing an extremely liberal judicial candidate but not voting for Kerry.

Spoonamore immediately suspected that a Man in the Middle attack had occurred but had no idea how it could have been carried out. It was not until November 2006 that the alternative media group ePluribus Media discovered that the real-time election results streamed by the office of Ohio's Secretary of State at election.sos.state.oh.us had been hosted on SmarTech's servers in Tennessee.

"Since early this decade, top Internet 'gurus' in Ohio have been coordinating web services with their GOP counterparts in Chattanooga, wiring up a major hub that in 2004, first served as a conduit for Ohio's live election night results," researchers at ePluribus Media wrote.

By then, SmarTech had become embroiled in the White House email scandal, during which it was discovered that accounts at rnc.com, gwb43.com, and other Republican Party domains which were hosted by SmarTech had been used by White House staff,, instead of their official government email accounts, to avoid leaving a public record of their communications. When subpoenaed by Congress, the White House said the emails had been accidentally deleted.

Michael L. Connell was served with a subpoena in Ohio on Sept. 22 in a case alleging that vote-tampering during the 2004 presidential election resulted in civil rights violations. Connell, president of GovTech Solutions and New Media Communications, is a website designer and IT professional who created a website for Ohio’s secretary of state that presented the results of the 2004 election in real time as they were tabulated.

At the time, Ohio’s Secretary of State, Kenneth J. Blackwell, was also chairman of Bush-Cheney 2004 reelection effort in Ohio.

Connell is refusing to testify or to produce documents relating to the system used in the 2004 and 2006 elections, lawyers say. His motion to quash the subpoena asserts that the request for documents is burdensome because the information sought should be “readily ascertainable through public records request” – but also, paradoxically, because “it seeks confidential, trade secrets, and/or proprietary information” that “have independent economic value” and “are not known to the public, or even to non-designated personnel within or working for Mr. Connell’s business.”

According to sources close to the office of Clifford Arnebeck, one of the Ohio attorneys who brought the case, Arnebeck intends to ask the court to compel Connell to testify. An emergency conference with the judge, originally scheduled for Monday, is to be rescheduled.

King Lincoln Bronzeville Neighborhood Association v. Blackwell
The case, known as King Lincoln Bronzeville Neighborhood Association v. Blackwell, was filed against Kenneth J. Blackwell on Aug. 31, 2006 by Columbus attorneys Clifford Arnebeck, Robert Fitrakis and others. It initially charged Blackwell with racially discriminatory practices -- including the selective purging of voters from the election rolls and the unequal allocation of voting machines to various districts -- and asked for measures to be taken to prevent similar problems during the November 2006 election.

On Oct. 9, 2006, an amended complaint added charges of various forms of ballot-rigging as also having the effect of "depriving the Plaintiffs of their voting rights, including the right to have their votes successfully cast without intimidation, dilution, cancellation or reversal by voting machine or ballot tampering." A motion to dismiss the case as moot was filed following the November 2006 election, but it was instead stayed to allow for settlement discussions.

The case took on fresh momentum earlier this year when Arnebeck announced in July that he was filing to "lift the stay in the case proceed with targeted discovery in order to help protect the integrity of the 2008 election." The new filing was inspired in part by the coming forward as a whistleblower of GOP IT security expert Stephen Spoonamore, who said he was prepared to testify to the plausibility of electronic vote-rigging having been carried out in 2004.

Arnebeck’s hope was that in the course of the discovery procedure it would be possible to subpoena Michael Connell, former White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove, and others to obtain additional information and improve the focus of the case. The stay was lifted Sept. 19, 2008 by an order from Magistrate Judge Terrence P. Kemp of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Ohio, and a subpoena was served to Connell on the following Monday, Sept. 22.
Allegations against Connell
The interest in Mike Connell stems from his association with a firm called GovTech, which he had spun off from his own New Media Communications under his wife Heather Connell’s name. GovTech was hired by Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell to set up an official election website at election.sos.state.oh.us to presented the 2004 presidential returns as they came in.

Connell is a long-time GOP operative, whose New Media Communications provided web services for the Bush-Cheney ’04 campaign, the US Chamber of Commerce, the Republican National Committee and many Republican candidates. This in itself might have raised questions about his involvement in creating Ohio’s official state election website

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Republican_IT_consultant_subpoenaed_in_case_0929.html

[L. Coyote]

222. Do the words "punch cards" mean anything to you?

"The Connally Anomaly" is consistent with punch card vote-switching. You might want to take a moment and discover which voting system was in use in Ohio in 2004.

[jwirr]

63. For God's sake stay out of small planes if the pugs have something

against you.

[Doremus]

65. I'm glad they've begun to realize the truth. After he died the family said

they didn't think it had anything to do with the Rove and his dirty dealings.

[lala_rawraw]

101. only Mrs. C said that

the rest of the family did not speak to anyone on the record. they put out a statement around the time of his death, but they were more upset that no one from the White House or even the RNC paid their respects.

[bertman]

69. Two courageous women. They must certainly realize that they are putting themselves

in danger just by pushing this as a "possibility".

Let's hope the sealed testimony that Connell gave is allowed to go public.

[joeglow3]

70. I don't buy it

As much as I can believe it, until I see evidence otherwise, I will classify them with all the people who complain about all the people the Clintons supposedly had murdered.

[lala_rawraw]

100. the point is...

that the sisters are not saying he was murdered. they are saying they want an investigation. what is it that you don't buy?

[santamargarita]

78. This greasy shitbag, Rove, would do anything to keep his...

sorry ass out of jail!

[JonLP24]

85. No way. I thought this headline was fake at first.

Obviously I think something is up. Best of wishes to her family. I hope foul play is not involved.

[WestSeattle2]

89. Where can we contribute to a private investigator fund???

[JohnWxy]

91. recommended!!

[JonLP24]

92. Appearently Rove threatened him to 'take the fall'

In July 2008, Ohio attorney Cliff Arnebeck, who had headed Moss v. Bush, alleged that Bush advisor Karl Rove had threatened Connell and threatened prosecution of Connell's wife for lobbying violations unless her husband "took the fall" for election fraud in Ohio, in an email he sent to Attorney General Michael Mukasey asking for protection for Connell.<5>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Connell

The source is #5 at the site.

Something is not right. This man bugged his own office and blamed it on the opponent. Post #45 has pretty convincing information about this criminal activity. Maybe it's an accident, maybe not but strange coincidence isn't it?

edited to add
It was reported following the crash that a close friend had warned him not to fly his plane because it might be sabotaged, and twice in the two months prior to the crash Connell had canceled flights due to "something wrong with his plane."<5>

Too fucking strange! Yes I'm a conspiracy nutcase though I don't go for conspiracies lightly.

edit # 2 to add this to be objective.
<5>

On December 31, 2008 it was reported that air traffic controllers had noted prior to the crash that Connell was off course, that they had been in communication with him regarding this, and that he had been trying to get back on course at the time of the crash. There were reported to have been no signs of mechanical problems with the plane.<7>

[No Elephants]

95. A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR could look into this, too. Contact your Rep, Senators, the WH and the D of J.

[L. Coyote]

183. Geeeez!

[cmd]

96. Location, location, location

This plane went down about five miles from the Diebold HQ. Coincidence?

[Garbo 2004]

196. Connell lived in the area. His plane crashed on approach to his local airport. nt

[bleever]

110. I think his sisters deserve to know what happened.

That isn't too much to ask, given the threats he received.

[lala_rawraw]

132. totally unrelated...

can i just say that I only now realized we have the option to ignore someone? thread is so much nicer now. did you guys know about the ignore function? okay, so i am slow if you did. but wow, what a difference.

[bleever]

146. I think that's pretty related.

Figuring out what to pay attention to includes figuring out what you can let go for now. It's been said that the brain's main function is to filter out everything bombarding it except for what matters, since all our senses are flooded all the time.

If someone's trying to flood you up, so you forget (or worse), it's a not just a blessing to be able to choose where to focus your own might; it's the thing that makes you stronger than they are.

[lala_rawraw]

174. i take it

you were following those deleted sub-threads?

[bleever]

186. Yes.

:hi:

[lala_rawraw]

235. apparently

chem-trail chaser is posting a great deal. i see the "ignored" term on a good many of my comments. how remarkable that someone is so obsessed, like they were directly wronged by the object of their obsession. in fact, i actually have an idea that this is entirely the case. but i wonder, do you think chem-trail is a dumped lover of the object of his obsession?;)

[troubleinwinter]

213. The troll posted 5 times. I alerted 5 times, giving mods two of his many prior banned user names.

[troubleinwinter]

148. Yes. It is much more convenient than

bothering to discuss or explain your statement:

"There was never a threat on his person that I am aware of", versus your many statemets of knowing Brett Kimberlin and refusal to address that he submitted a sworn statement to the court via Arnebeck about having received information of threats against Connell.

I had rather hoped that an "investigative reporter" who purports to cover this story would have something to offer in reconciling this information or looking into this.

But I'm sure that ignoring the question all together is much "nicer".

[New Dawn]

150. Kick for truth.

[zonkers]

153. Why would a key witness or whistleblower ever take a small plane?

I mean don't they read the papers?

[Slick Nick]

154. pretty sure he was murdered

he worked for Rove after all.

[Seldona]

156. K&R

Not saying anything happened, but it can't hurt to investigate. I wouldn't put just about anything past these torture loving, anti-American, criminals.

[RedCloud]

159. Do these small planes have transponder codes?

One idea behind the 9/11 attacks was that someone could electronically hijack the transponder code and make the plane fly in ways humans couldn't duplicate manually.

[BridgeTheGap]

162. Haven't seen Mel Carnahan mentioned on this thread, but maybe I missed it. n.t

[ColesCountyDem]

169. Fatal airplane crashes also kill Republicans; we just tend to remember the Democrats more.

http://www.airsafe.com/events/celebs/politics.htm

[ColesCountyDem]

175. *crickets* n/t

[ColesCountyDem]

185. Non-conspiracy explanation don't seem to spark much debate...

:shrug:

[aquart]

212. That's just "celebrities."

And it's not that we tend to remember the Democrats more. After Carnahan or Wellstone, whichever happened last, I thought your way. Decided to make a list, an Excel list of small plane crashes related to politics in any way using a search engine. So what I found was limited to whatever I was able to get with the search strings I could think of. But it was WEIRD. WEIRD.

I don't know if my Excel file still exists. I know the hard drive copy disappeared in one of my many computer disasters. And I don't remember the names except for the obvious ones of Wellstone and Carnahan. The others weren't "celebrities."

What was WEIRD? All the ones I could find were Democrats EXCEPT for one four-year period in which only Republicans crashed. The 4-year period that was unhealthy for Republicans was the four years of George HW Bush's presidency. I said it was WEIRD.

I wish someone would do a serious search and really comb the records. Show me big gaping flaws in my little lost list. It was just something I was doing to set my mind at rest. It didn't.

[jberryhill]

231. "Show me big gaping flaws in my little lost list."

The fact that you don't have such a list is a fairly obvious "flaw" with it.

[ColesCountyDem]

238. It is randomness in its purest form.

If you played craps, for instance, and threw boxcars 8 times in a row, would you assert that no one ever throws anything but double sixes? By definition, accidents happen randomly; the fact that members of BOTH parties have died in approximately equal numbers over the years clearly demonstrates this fact.

I don't know how to make it any clearer.

:hi::shrug:

[Raster]

191. Ah yes, the conspiracy smearists are out in force today.

Yes, small planes do crash because of non conspiratorial reasons. Small planes also crash because someone wanted them to.

[Baby Snooks]

194. Remember Dorothy Kilgallen...

Found dead in bed. An overdose. Presumed to be accidental. Found dead in bed reading a book. The book in her lap.

Her husband found her reading glasses on the desk. Downstairs.

[happydreams]

195. Two voting company execs died in small plane crash

Diebold COO Wes Vance dies in private plane crash (DBD)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du...

<http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/newsfinder/pulseone.asp... >
Diebold COO Wes Vance dies in private plane crash (DBD) By Michael Baron
Diebold (DBD) is saying Wes Vance, its chief operating officer, died in a tragic accident. Vance was piloting a plane that crashed near Columbus, Ohio, the company said. Walden O'Dell, the company's chairman, president and CEO, will assume the day-to-day operational responsibilities until a successor is named.

Tin foil hat time- did he "know too much"?


After a while, the law of averages says that Democrats and people working in the election machine/voter data field shouldn't be the only ones killed in small plane crashes. How many coincidences does it take to find some tin foil? Certainly some skepticism is called for on these "chance" occurrences.
Carnahan . . the Wellstones . . Diebold COO . . ChoicePoint Exec VP
Dan Rocco -- April 1, 2002 -- ChoicePoint VP
He died on April 1, 2002, in a plane crash in Gainesville, Georgia. He was an executive vice president at ChoicePoint, the firm that gained infamy with their faulty "felons" list supplied to Katherine Harris during the 2000 election in Florida. As a result of this list, thousands of voters (mostly African-American voters) were wrongly identified as felons and purged from the rolls.
<<http://www.bk2k.com/bushbodycount/stolen-election/bodie... >

[L. Coyote]

225. I want answers too. Why was there a 6% vote switch in Ohio punch card ballots?

The 2004 Ohio Presidential Election: Cuyahoga County Analysis
How Kerry Votes Were Switched To Bush Votes

In a subset of 166,953 votes, one of every 34 Ohio voters, the Kerry-Bush margin
shifts six percent when the population is sorted by outcomes of wrong-precinct voting.

What happened BEFORE the punch card ballots (3/4ths of Ohio) were tabulated?
How did they get switched, and by whom?
Did precinct ballot switching (Kerry-Bush switching) produce the down-ticket anolamies?

[Old Hank]

244. I smell a rat

The timing and circumstances surrounding the death of this guy seem to me like something worth investigating. Rove needs to answer A LOT of questions.

[Algorem]

246. lawyer for 9/11 victims/Buffalo flight 3407 crash victims crashed and died

the other day in his small plane 40 miles from where Connell did

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3853709

"...He even won settlements for 9/11 disaster victims..."



http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com/2009/05/two-flight-3407-attorneys-die-in-plane.html

Two Buffalo attorneys died in planecrash
Michele McClintick
www.wivb.com

30 Apr 2009

BUFFALO, N.Y. (WIVB) - Two Buffalo attorneys who were fighting for justice for one of the Flight 3407 families, lost their own lives in a plane crash near Cleveland...




Tragedy of the 9/11 Widow

http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com/2009/02/tragedy-of-911-widow-genocidegate-ties.html

Beverly Eckert became a national heroine as leader of the 9/11 relatives. Yesterday it emerged she died in the Buffalo plane crash

By David Usborne in New York
Independent/AP
14 February 2009S

Even as Beverly Eckert boarded Flight 3407 from Newark to Buffalo, she knew she still had not shed the burden that came with the death of her husband on 11 September 2001.

The weekend was to be one more spent honouring his memory; days before, she had met Barack Obama at the White House as a 9/11 widow. Now Ms Eckert herself, who was 50, is gone, like her husband, consumed by horrifying fire. The plane, a Dash 8 flying under the livery of Continental Connection, dropped from the clouds amid icy conditions just seven miles short of Buffalo airport, killing all 49 people on board and one on the ground.

There is equality in death – every life on board was as precious as the other. But the loss of Ms Eckert, who emerged after 9/11 as a leader among relatives and friends of victims demanding action and explanations from Washington, added awful poignancy to a day of national tragedy, even for Mr Obama.

"Tragic events such as these remind us of the fragility of life and the value of every single day," Mr Obama said in televised remarks. "One person who understood that well was Beverly Eckert, who was on that flight and who I met with just a few days ago. You see, Beverly lost her husband on 9/11 and became a tireless advocate for those families whose lives were forever changed on that September day."...

[Algorem]

247. big Dem donor and amazing individual-

http://www.buffalonews.com/obituaries/story/657659.html

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/michael-doran.asp?cycle=08

Michael Doran Contribution List in 2008
Name & Location Employer/Occupation Dollar
Amount Date Primary/
General Contibuted To
Doran, Michael H
AMHERST, NY
14226 Self employed/Attorney $1,000 08/04/2008 P OBAMA VICTORY FUND - Democrat
Doran, Michael
BUFFALO, NY
14209 Doran and Murphy/Attorney $500 07/21/2008 P FRIENDS OF JIM OBERSTAR - Democrat Farm Labor
Doran, Michael H
BUFFALO, NY
14209 Self/Attorney $500 07/16/2008 G BRALEY FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
Doran, Michael H. Esq.
AMHERST, NY
14226 Doran & Murphy LLP/Attorney $2,500 06/24/2008 P AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR JUSTICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE (AAJ PAC) - Unknown
Doran, Michael H
BUFFALO, NY
14209 Doran and Murphy/Attorney $1,000 06/08/2008 G BRALEY FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
Doran, Michael H
AMHERST, NY
14226 Doran and Murphy/Attorney $500 05/28/2008 G POWERS FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
Doran, Michael H. Esq.
AMHERST, NY
14226 Doran & Murphy LLP/Attorney $2,500 02/05/2008 P AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR JUSTICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE (AAJ PAC) - Unknown
Doran, Michael H
AMHERST, NY
14226 Self employed/Attorney $200 09/30/2007 P JOHN EDWARDS FOR PRESIDENT - Democrat
Doran, Michael H
BUFFALO, NY
14226 Doran & Murphy LLP/Attorney $500 03/25/2007 P HIGGINS FOR CONGRESS - Democrat
Doran, Michael H
AMHERST, NY
14226 Self employed/Attorney $2,100 01/17/2007 P JOHN EDWARDS FOR PRESIDENT - Democrat
Doran, Michael H. Esq.
AMHERST, NY
14226 Doran & Murphy LLP/Attorney $2,000 01/16/2007 P AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR JUSTICE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE (AAJ PAC) - Unknown



http://www.buffalonews.com/obituaries/story/657659.html

[Amerigus]

250. Fetzer/Arnebeck/Kimberlin + Coverage Round-Up

I was surprised as anyone when I saw Arnebeck cited Fetzer in the Isthmus "sisters" piece. I'm an editor at OpEdNews where Fetzer's piece was posted on 4/13/09 at http://www.opednews.com/populum/print_friendly.php?p=Has-Cheney-been-Murdering-by-Jim-Fetzer-090408-987.html

and I can say it has remained the 2nd most trafficked article on OEN long after it was rotated off the home page. While it dealt more with Wellstone, Pat Tillman, Bev Eckert, it clearly labeled itself as a hypothesis, attempting to link what is known about Sy Hersh's revelations with Fetzer's extensive research on "wet works" units within the government.

Perhaps Arnebeck believes Connell's plane's loud revving noises could have been remote control acceleration? I am no pilot myself, but I'd just like to add the claims in "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" do put foul play theories in play.

For months I believed debate over whether Connell was murdered only detracted from the question of whether Ohio 2004 was stolen. I felt it was more important to investigate and examine the Chatanooga servers. But if the sister's call for a probe into the whole affair, perhaps it's helpful - if they actually are. I'm not sure how much the Isthmus piece could have stretched or framed the sisters' few, unspecific comments. I also wonder if the sisters were aware of possible firestorms they'd be bringing on themselves...

Next, if I read right, this thread is the first place anyone has claimed Brett Kimbelin was the "McCain Campaign Insider"? He is a co-founder of VR with controversial baggage but many have been trying to separate this from the VR reporting on the Ohio case which has been checked and corroborated by several other reporter/sites (Brad, ePluribus, MCM, etc.)

I'd think this McCain/Kimberlin item newsworthy unless someone can convince me otherwise? Does troubleinwinter care to elaborate for someone coming up to speed? Anyone care to refute this claim?

Finally, the coverage of the sisters piece hasn't hit Huffington or much of anywhere else. Perhaps they didn't think the Isthmus piece was thorough, or that Arnebeck's starting to drift too far afield?