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lanlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 12:55 PM
Original message
Ireland deeply shocked by abuse revelations
Source: Global Post

DUBLIN — Irish newspapers struggled on Thursday to convey the enormity of the horrors inflicted for decades by religious orders on the country’s most vulnerable children following the release of a long-awaited official report.

The usually restrained Irish Times headlined its editorial, “The savage reality of our darkest days.” The Irish Independent’s splash headline read “State of Shame.” The Irish Examiner front page said simply: “Shattered Lives.”

The shattered lives were those of more than 1,700 people who gave evidence of shocking treatment as children at the hands of Christian Brothers and nuns to a government-appointed Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse.

Irish people had some knowledge before this of the obscene depravity that permeated the industrial school system that existed in Ireland until the 1980s. The commission began gathering evidence in 2000 after a series on RTE (Irish national television), called "States of Fear," provided documentary evidence of the reign of terror in institutions for homeless, abandoned and delinquent children. And some victims of abuse, like the writer and actor Mannix Flynn, who "served time" in St. Josephs Industrial School in Letterfrack after he stole a bicycle, published compelling accounts of their mistreatment more than 10 years ago.

Read more: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/ireland/090521/institutionalized-children-abuse



Don't think the Vatican's "few bad apples" defense will get much traction this time.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Considering that it used to be a point of ride to have a daughter
take the veil or a son enter the priesthood, the aftershocks should continue for some time. Every person who hurt a child was someone's aunt or uncle or cousin.


I've heard that the Puritanism rampant in Irish life in the late 19th and 20 centuries was a reaction to the Great Hunger. People put off having children until they were sure they could feed them. The only way to prevent having children was to avoid sex. A culture developed in which men didn't marry until their father died and they inherited the farm. Often a middle aged man married a younger woman and brought her home to an elderly mother-in-law.I wonder if there is any connection to the abuse of children. How many people were forced into life long celibacy because there was no way to support a family?
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. I have never heard that theory, but it makes a lot of sense
I have always wondered about the Irish sex fear. I mean...what other western peasant culture was sexually repressed? It never made sense, but now it does.
Thanks
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. I believe the Irish have always known and they are SHOCKED that the abuse is now being acknowledged.
Edited on Thu May-21-09 01:21 PM by McCamy Taylor
You do not keep something like that a secret. Not a real secret. Same for pedophile priests. The Catholic Church's dogma that nuns and priests can be (seriously) flawed and still represent God is designed to allow Catholic clergy to get away with murder. No matter what they do to kids, they can still claim that they speak for God and that anyone who criticizes them is preventing God's work from being done.

The Protestant Reformation was triggered, in part, by the abuses of clergy, who used their positions to make money (selling pardons), acquire huge estates and exploit the vulnerable.

Parishioners must have the final say about the behavior of their clergy---not some financial interest in Rome---otherwise the clergy will attract users and abusers who want to use their positions in order to do the things that society normally forbids them from doing.

Some of the most sick and sadistic women I have ever met have been nuns at Catholic schools. If they were lay women, their conduct would not be tolerated.
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bottomtheweaver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It was never a secret.
Read Dubliners. This is about as far from LBN as the Trojan War.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Historically, it has always been hard for Ireland to buck a priest or
the church. they were enshrined in the constitution thanks to that dipshit Eamon deValera. Also, if you want to see shamefaced acknowlegment of this, consider that an international airport was built out in the boonies to take pilgrims to the Shrine of Knock. The priest felt it might give employment to a hard hit economic area but it was a bit over the top and 60 minutes had a great show on it.

I love that area. the shrine is nice but the airport still makes me chuckle.
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bottomtheweaver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Two LBN threads the day Dick hits the airwaves with his big torture defense?
Accompanied by a fake terra plot in NYC? This is an old story and this latest iteration is a little too convenient. And there's nothing remotely similar between school beatings in Ireland and the CIA torture operation, except as a PR stunt.
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. It's slightly more than just "school beatings" if you read today's Irish Times and the multitude
Edited on Thu May-21-09 03:51 PM by Mrs. Overall
of articles. It might be a distraction here on DU, but in Ireland this newest revelation of the depth and breadth of the abuse is huge. The Times also talks about the flood of calls today into various Irish crisis help lines.

An excerpt:

We have to call this kind of abuse by its proper name – torture. We must also call the organised exploitation of unpaid child labour – young girls placed in charge of babies “on a 24-hour basis” or working under conditions of “great suffering” in the rosary bead industry; young boys doing work that gave them no training but made money for the religious orders – by its proper name: slavery. It demands a very painful adjustment of our notions of the nature of the State to accept that it helped to inflict torture and slavery on tens of thousands of children. In the light of the commission’s report, however, we can no longer take comfort in evasions.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0521/1224247034262.html
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. You know, sometimes it's not all about us! This report has been in the works
and under discussion for quite a while.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. That is probably the wittiest post I have ever read here
Unfortunately, one of the truest also
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bottomtheweaver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Thanks
that was a nice thing to say. :)
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I keep hearing horror stories about the viciousness and abuse doled out by "teacher" nuns.
I wonder if there is something about nunhood that attracts these types, or if the weird way they live makes so many of them sadistic.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Certain orders attracted "these types" much more than others.
Edited on Thu May-21-09 02:03 PM by pnwmom
I remember my mother always saying she would never send her children to schools with Mercy nuns -- one of the orders chiefly implicated here (for the girls).

I went to school with nuns from a different order -- and they were wonderful. Smart, funny, and caring -- and they encouraged us to be assertive. An abusive nun wouldn't have lasted five minutes in that school.
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Thanks for this post. Most American orders of sisters did not (and do not) condone abuse
Edited on Thu May-21-09 02:51 PM by Mrs. Overall
of any sort. The orders, however, that came to the US from Ireland were notorious for discipline that went way beyond the norm, the Sisters of Mercy being one of these groups.

It's also important to distinguish the Irish Christian Brothers from the group of Christian Brothers who work in the Napa Valley and other parts of California (they were the winemakers). I went to a Christian Brothers/Dominican Sisters high school in California and could not have asked for kinder, more compassionate teachers and role models.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Yes, I remember my parents saying
nice things about the Dominicans, too.

It must be so painful for good nuns and priests to be smeared with all of this.
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BuddhaGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
29. my high school (Orange County, CA)
the principal and several teachers were Christian brothers...they were wonderful!
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
31. Until the middle of the 20th Century, physical punishment was considered IMPORTANT in education
This stress on physical punishment was an important part of education was center to the education system of Ancient Rome and Greece. When the Roman Empire turned Christian, this tradition continued. The first opposition to it was in the early 1800s when peasants and working class children were first FORCED to go to school, their parents objected to the physical punishment that was inherent in such school systems (Adopted from traditional upper class schools and collages where physical punishment had been the norm since Roman times). This first attack on physical punishment of children was beaten back by the educational system, but the concept that education can occur WITHOUT physical punishment came back, in some educational circles, in the early 1900s. This movement against physical punishment increased throughout the 20th century till by the 1960s when it finally went out of style in the US Public School System (It survives in some public school systems to this day, but those districts are considered backward at best).

Now, the Catholic system was a little slower at converting then the public school system, probably because people who objected to physical punishment would opt out of the Catholic System and into the Public System and thus less pressure on Catholic Schools to change. Even given this reluctance to change, most Catholic Schools ended physical punishment long before the 1980s, abut a generation behind the Public School System in the US.

Thus it was NOT the fact physical punishment was attractive to some people, but that it had a long history is why the Catholic Schools used them.

A second factor, is that the nuns and priests in charge of these Irish Schools were told that one of their job was to "Reform" these children (I will ignore the sexual abuse, no one ever claim that was part of the efforts to "Reform" and as such a different subject, through in the report both are treated together). In the 1800s the US adopted two "Reform" systems, copied in much of the rest of the world as the first attempt to "reform" felons other then by executing or physically punishing them (Both had a long tradition going back to Roman times). The Pennsylvania system was isolation. It failed do to the fact it tended to make people insane (People need human interaction, without it we go insane). Through Pennsylvania dropped it NOT do to the affect it had on felons, but that it cost to much. New York Adopted the "Auburn" system of complete silence but convicted felons working together (thus interacting) with harsh physical punishment for any infraction of any rule. This system, basically a continuation of tradition efforts at reform of felons through physical punishment was extended to the Child Reform Schools in the US, and then the rest of the world.

Now, by 1900, such harsh physical punishment was showing it did NOT work and most of the World slowly abandon it (Especially after WWII). The US and England were two countries where alternative prison system were politically unpopular, so variation of the Auburn System was adopted and implemented instead (for example, the rule of compete silence was abolished when it was found most prisoners worked out a way around it).

Nw this brings me to these Catholic Schools in Ireland. Remember these are "Reform" schools in the tradition of US Reformatories. Harsh discipline was considered not only normal but REQUIRED as part of the duty to "Reform" these children. Even today, many (but not all) US "Reformatories" (And the US Military Prison System) consider physical punishment as an essential part of reforming a person (In the case of the US Military, the Physical Punishment has NOT meant actual beatings since the 1960s, but forcing someone to carry a 100 pound weight and do 50 push-ups is regularly done to this day).

Ireland was a little slower then the US at switching from physical punishment to more sentence education in such reformatories (But not by much, similar stories of abuse can be found in almost any reformatories in the US during the same period in question i.e the 1930s through the 1990s, through in the US reforms of the Reformatories started in the 1960s, about the same time as the Catholic run Schools started to be closed down in Ireland. The Catholic Reform Schools seems to have been replaced by US Style Reformatories of the 1960 era, so you can make the comment the reform was occurring at the same time in both places).

I wrote this to try to place these schools in the right environment. To look at them from today's point of view is wrong, especially given that similar Reformatories abuse in the US has been ignored (And the Reformatories in the US have NEVER Been religious based). Was the abuse wrong, yes, but it was NOT only the norm to relatively recently, it was EXPECTED by the people PAYING for these Schools (i.e. the Irish Government in this case, US States in the Case of US Reformatories). This report has the good affect of bring such abuse to out attention so we can set up a system where such abuse can be minimized, but keep it is context of its time and the expectation of Society at the time these schools were in operation.

As to the work that was NOT training, but money maker for the Church. In the US the US Prison system does the same to this day, train prisoners to make license plates for example. This is a skill that is hard to transfer to an outside employment (About 20 years ago, an ex-felon did use his training in prison, he set up his own license plate stamping center and did a good bit of business before the state arrested him for it). Under the doctrine of the time period (We are talking 1930s-1990) work was viewed as part of you being "reformed". Even if the work was NOT training for work outside the school. Work for work sake was considered "Good" and a way to minimize the cost of running such Reformatories in the US (And apparently these reform schools in Ireland). Yes, such work made money for the Church, but the cost of the Schools exceeded the profits from the work product. In the US this was also the norm till the 1960s (and for adult prison to this day). Sad reflection of the time period, but a view NOT only held by the Catholic Church but by the vast majority of people in Ireland and the US. If you want to condemn it, fine, but also understand such practices was NOT done only by the Catholic Church.

One side comment on the sex abuse. Such sex abuse occurs in US reformatories at roughly the same level as these Catholic Run Schools. This does NOT make what these priests did right, but it happens. In the US we do NOT hear of it for most states considered such acts as coming under laws protecting the privacy of Children (Such privacy acts are almost always used to protect Adults not Children, but the intention was to protect Children, my position is, given that no one hears of such cases, do to the fact they are tried in private, most people do NOT understand that such acts occur on a more frequent base then most people think). The Church should be punished for permitting such people to CONTINUE in such schools after it became clear that such priests had abused Children, that is one of the cost of running such schools. If the priest was removed and NEVER given the opportunity to harm another child, that is a different set of facts. In such situations the Church had no grounds to deny that priest access to children until after the abuse occurred. After the abuse occurred such priest should have been kept away from children. We have to accept that fact that individuals with the tendency to abuse children will get into positions of power over children and abuse that power. Once that power is abuse and becomes known to the Church, the Church (Or Government agency running a non-church related reformatory) MUST protect its charges and remove the abuser.

Lets all agree to condemn the Church for NOT doing its duty to remove such abusers, like we should abuse a Government Agency that does the same thing. At the same time accept the unpleasant fact such abuse will occur and all we can do is to set up system to minimize the opportunities for such abuse. As an Accountant once told me, trust SYSTEMS not PEOPLE. If you have a good systems to detect such abuse and to keep such abusers away from potential victims, you can minimize abuse. Such a System can NOT rely everyone being angels, for devils had been angels before the fall of Lucifer (Catholic Doctrine). The system can assume most people was good, for most people in the presence of other will try to be good. On the other hand, the system can NOT leave people be one on one with potential victims (And that is the case in most cases of Abuse). The Church's (and most Government agencies for it is cheaper then the alternative) problem was it assumes its Priests were good, until shown to be bad. The alternative is to make sure no one person is ever left with a potential victim alone but such a system cost twice as much for it requires the presence of two people other then the potential victim. As I said, the Church and most Government agencies running similar reformatories have a long history of going cheap, i.e having one person instead of two (and to make sure you always have two, you end up with either three people to a group, which triples the cost of doing the job).

Now, I must apologize to anyone who takes the above as an attempt to make excuses for the Church, That is NOT what I am trying to do. This later section as to Sexual Abuse is to address HOW to solve the problem and the cost involved with that solution. Just to Condemn the Church (or other institution is a similar situation) is useless, unless you have a solution. Switching to a Government run School is NOT a solution if the same one on one situation is permitted to exist (Priest no longer have the opportunities but other pedophiles get a opportunities). Lets not only condemn the Church for its failure but propose and discuss HOW it occurred and how to solve the problem. I separate the Sexual Abuse from the physical abuse, for the two types of abuse have two different set of causation. The Physical abuse do to the long history of physical abuse in education (dating back to Roman times) AND the increase use of such physical abuse in reformatories starting in the 1800s and lasting while into the 1980s in the US let alone Ireland. The sexual abuse was NOT part of the Physical Abuse expected in an educational or reformatory setting till the 1960s, its causation is different. Most sexual abuse is based on the ability and power to abuse a child and put the child in an inferior position to the abuser, as oppose to the Physical abuse which as part of the established education system. Lets try to be fair to the Catholic Church (and other institutions in such situations) and try to keep these two set of abuses separate. To a degree that is impossible, but lets condemn the church for NOT doing what was expected of it (i.e. the Sexual abuse part, i.e the Church NOT protecting the Children from being sexual abused) AND understand that the church was doing what society expected of it when it came to the Physical abuse of such children in the education area.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Many American public schools still practice corporal punishment.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/30/education/30punish.html

In Many Public Schools, the Paddle Is No Relic

By RICK LYMAN
Published: September 30, 2006
New York Times


Over most of the country and in all but a few major metropolitan areas, corporal punishment has been on a gradual but steady decline since the 1970’s, and 28 states have banned it. But the practice remains alive, particularly in rural parts of the South and the lower Midwest, where it is not only legal, but also widely practiced.

.........................

The most recent federal statistics show that during the 2002-3 school year, more than 300,000 American schoolchildren were disciplined with corporal punishment, usually one or more blows with a thick wooden paddle. Sometimes holes were cut in the paddle to make the beating more painful. Of those students, 70 percent were in five Southern states: Texas, Mississippi, Tennessee, Alabama and Arkansas.

Often the battle over corporal punishment is being fought on the edges of Southern cities, where suburban growth pushes newcomers from across the country into rural and religiously conservative communities. In these areas, educators say, corporal punishment is far more accepted, resulting in clashing attitudes about child-rearing and using the rod.



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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Your post sums it up very well
The reason this is "shocking" is that it is being acknowledged, and the blame is being laid at the feet of the once unquestionable Church. How shocking that must be!

It is good for humanity when abuses like this have to be acknowledged and not simply excused. People need to be sickened by this. If they have to face it finally, they will be.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. This has been well known by anyone who cared to acknowledge it
My brother has lived in Ireland for over a decade. He told me several years ago (at the height of our priest sex scandal) that the Irish people he knows would never dream of leaving their children alone with a priest. He said they were all mystified at the ignorant Americans who were dropping their kids off at the rectory for a sleepover or overnight camping trip.
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Candy Randy Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. This is what you get with repressed sexually!
The antics that were employed in Abu Graib is no different than a Catholic school in Ireland. This just repressed sexuality that get's perverted in the mind of the afflicted. This is why it's called perversion. The culprits masquerade it as discipline or the war against terrorism. When violence and sex meet, it is called Sadomasochism. The creeps who were beating the children were most likely sexually aroused.
The Catholic church some time soon are going have to confess that celibacy for priest does not work! Since most religions embrace: Natural Law, celibacy is a perversion against nature!
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. Sinéad was right
“There is a place for (organized religion) but in our times it's important to understand ... that God and religion are two very different things. The difference between them is that God is unconditionally loving and religion is conditionally loving.” Sinéad O'Connor

A beautiful singer that was unfairly ridiculed and ostracized for her anger against the Catholic Church's record of abuse. I was ashamed when she was booed off the stage at the 30th anniversary tribute show to Bob Dylan at Madison Square Garden in October 1992 for her brave stance.

then (SNL) and now
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terip64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yes, she was. n/t
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BonnieJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. God!!! Until the 1980's!
How could this be going on so recently? How could people treat children so badly as a matter of course?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. shocked?
i know next to nothing about irish society and politics, and even I knew about it...hell, there was even a movie made about it...
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I don't think anyone had any idea of the number of children harmed.
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archiemo Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. Once again, Thank You, "GOD" n/t
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. My mother's family is from Mayo in Western Ireland. In theory, this is the
strictest area. In fact,there are several people in the family who were children born out of wedlock to a sister or cousin. My dad's family came to this country a little earlier from Kerry, and the same thing happened in his family. Quite a contrast from the Magdalene laundries!
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
25. so besides what has gone on in the U.S. and Ireland -- when do the reports --
or at least a comprehensive documentaion of religious persons abusing the children and people of africa, china, south east asia, polynesia, etc beging to roll in..

and it's not just the catholic church guilty of theses crimes.

all conservative churches hide these people.

i'm a church goer -- but i want the skeletons out.
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-21-09 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
26. EVERYBODY knew about it
They just chose not to say anything about it, or to think about it, or to admit it. There are newspaper reports going back AT LEAST until the 1960s on the topic. It reminds me of the people next to Auschwitz with human-skin lampshades who later claimed they had no idea of what was going on.
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CanonRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
28. I wonder if this will change the Irish people's
historically deferential attitude towards the church. I just returned from there, and the attitude toward the church hadn't changed much since I was there in the early 80's. The least secular country in Europe.
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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. You must have been in the wrong part of Ireland
Edited on Fri May-22-09 09:36 AM by Tripmann
The country in general has a complete apathy and indifference towards the church since these scandals and others first started hitting the headlines years ago. Their words no longer carry any weight in society here, save our more elderly citizens and a small number of RW groups.

In relation to the topic, I was taught in Dublin by abusive nuns until aged 7, then further got the crap knocked out of me by christian brothers and teachers until age 15. This was endemic. In the institutions it was far worse but just as widespread, as we now can prove.

Just in case any of you are picturing a dickensian scene from a 1930s black and white movie, I left school in 1994.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. See my post above, such abuse was considered normal in the US well after WWII
Edited on Fri May-22-09 11:58 AM by happyslug
Physical punishment and education were tied in together from the days of Ancient Greece and Rome till just after WWII. Just after WWII the US public schools started to get away from it, but still common till the 1960s (And in many schools lasted till the 1970s). The Catholic Schools in the US was a little slower at dropping it, but even in the US Catholic Schools tend to drop it by 1980. Ireland being only 20 years behind the US in this regard is NOT that surprising.
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