Carter: Chavez Becoming Authoritarian

[bluestateguy]

Source: Huffington Post

BOGOTA, Colombia — Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter says he is disappointed by Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez and concerned he is increasingly shifting toward an authoritarian regime.

Carter says Chavez initially helped the country by sharing national wealth. But Carter says Chavez is now consolidating political power, making it "almost impossible" for the Obama Administration to establish friendly relations with Venezuela.

Read more

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/20/carter-chavez-becoming-au_n_292697.html

---

Let's see what the excuse makers have to say.

[Taverner]

1. I agree 100% - Chavez started out doing good

But for me, shutting down the opposition was the beginning of the road to authoritarianism

[Warpy]

8. He hasn't had a heavy hand so far

and has been shutting down only those outlets that have been openly calling for revolution.

Still, he's on their TV constantly, creating a cult of personality, and that alone is disquieting. Add to that the shutdown of media instead of fining them into compliance, and the picture becomes a little clearer.

If Venezuela is lucky, he'll be as much of a mixed bag as Castro has been. If they're not, he'll be just another bastard of a dictator.

It could easily go either way.

[EFerrari]

14. The radio stations that were shut down were given a period to comply

and they chose not to. Apparently, the rich guys who own them think taxes and license fees are for the little people.

[Warpy]

42. I wasn't aware there was a grace period to bring them into compliance

Thanks for setting that much straight. I do think he's had a remarkably light hand with hostile media and has shut down only the most egregious.

What troubles me more is the cult of personality he's building.

He could still go either way.

[EFerrari]

45. Yep. It was either 45 or 60 days, I can't remember which one now.

I would like to see more young talent developed, too, but on the other hand, we never hear about the youngsters who are coming up in our media either because it's all Bad Chavez, all the time.

[sam sarrha]

73. GIVE THEM 3 WARNINGS NOT TO LIE.. SHUT EM DOWN

[Judi Lynn]

74. You seem to be unaware other Latin America Presidents also have weekly broadcasts. n/t

[Warpy]

81. Chavez is DAILY and often for several hours

and it's not a broadcast of a speech, it's more like a reality show.

Maybe this is a cultural difference in Venezuela, but it's still creepy.

[followthemoney]

100. I would rather have an elected official on television every day...

Rather than the unelected corporate stooges we have to rely on for information in this so-called republic.

I think news people should be elected and have proportional air time on the public owned broadcast spectrum.

[Warpy]

127. Great, then you'd have rappers and chicken brained blonde

bimbos. The rappers might be smart enough to be able to tell you what's going on, but the chicken brained blondes are already in abundance on Pox News.

[Judi Lynn]

159. He broadcasts WEEKLY, and his program is called "“Aló Presidente.”

He takes questions from the Venezuelan people.

This is NOT a daily show.

Alvaro Uribe, mentioned in this article:

BOGOTÁ — President Álvaro Uribe is widely credited with transforming the Colombian economy, bringing greater security and fostering one of the most welcoming business environments in Latin America. But many people know him only as a wagging finger - an index finger, to be exact.

As he shook his finger at me during a recent interview - a gesture so associated with him that it was used as the symbol of his re-election campaign - I comforted myself with the knowledge that I was in good company. All his ministers have been thus scolded in front of the Colombian people during his weekly, daylong Communal Councils, broadcast live on national television.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/06/business/worldbusiness/06iht-wbspot08.1.7408847.html

Colombia President Álvaro Uribe Participates in VOA's Foro Interamericano

30 June 2005

Colombia's President, Álvaro Uribe, participates in VOA's live weekly Spanish broadcast Foro Interamericano on Friday, 1 July, at 1400 UTC (10:00 a.m. EDT). President Uribe appears via satellite from Colombia.

The program will air live throughout Colombia on VOA affiliate stations, the country's state TV and radio, and many other stations.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-06/2005-06-30-foro-uribe.cfm?moddate=2005-06-30

[paulsby]

15. socialist authoritarians

like many, if not most , authoritarians of all political stripes often start out doing good, i would add.

[IndianaGreen]

19. Chavez has brought free health care to the working class and peasants

which is something the Democrats will never allow in America.

[paulsby]

23. which kind of proves my point

an authoritarian of any political stripe can (and often does) do SOME good things.

recall the famous line about mussolini, for instance

[EFerrari]

25. Unless your argument is that people who do good things become authoritarians,

no, it doesn't.

[paulsby]

32. that's not my argument at all

i stated my argument quite succinctly: authoritarians sometimes do some good things

it's that simple

[EFerrari]

35. Your proof that Chavez is an authoritarian is that he's done good things.

Surely you see the problems with that line of reasoning.

[paulsby]

37. again, you fail

at reading comprehension

i did not say that the fact that chavez has done some good things is proof that he is an authoritarian

i said that the fact that he has done some good things does not disprove that he is an authoritarian

please don't throw up silly strawmen. what i said is not complicated or easy to misconstrue

[EFerrari]

41. LOL. What you said can be said equally of Obama.

Obama has done some good things and that doesn't prove he's not an authoritarian. :crazy:

[paulsby]

43. correct

that's exactly my point

somebody says "chavez is an authoritarian"

a counter argument is presented "but he can't be an authoritarian (often implicit) , he provided socialized medicine or helped the poor or whatnot"

and i say the fact that he HAS done good things is not a disproof that he is an authoritarian

fwiw, the term authoritarian says little to nothing about whether a particular authoritarian has done good or bad things.

it is a reference to the power and lack of oversight/checks and balances on the person, NOT the "goodness" of what they have done.

saying "but he's done good things" is thus TOTALLY irrelevant to disproving his authoritarian status.

[spanza]

178. you actually ARE a funny guy!

:-)

[Chulanowa]

85. Except that line is false

The trains didn't run on time :)

Chavez is in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn't situation. If he doesn't nip this shit in the bud, he could very well end up being the next Peron or Allende, a leftist do-gooder overthrown and killed by American-sponsored rightist groups. If he does quash them, he gets called "authoritarian"

I'm getting the impression that the obama administration is no more interested in a self-determined future for Latin America than any of its predecessors were.

[paulsby]

91. that's interesting

maybe they didn't run on time. i think the concept is still true even if that particular example wasn't

of course dictators can do good things, or like (in the case of hitler no godwin intended) can like small animals and be good with children or whatnot.

it's a unique notion of self-determination, when that self- determination = self as imposed by a dictator, but i digress

[flamingdem]

125. Exactly who has Obama's ear on Latin America, that what I want to know! nt

[scarletwoman]

130. Right wing Colombian president Uribe, for one. (nt)

[Wilms]

134. Google Lanny Davis. He collaborates with Bill and Hillary from time to time.

[Wilms]

139. Sorry, I got it wrong about Davis. He's lobbying on behalf of the Honduran coup leaders.

Speaking of Davis, of course the Secretary of State should have the President's ear. But that makes me nervous.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

154. If I may...

...I seriously doubt President Obama could even consider such a thing.

[sabrina 1]

133. Every president, every ruler, is authoritarian by nature

I see nothing odd about that. It takes a strong leader to get things done and to keep enemies at bay.

I find this statement by Carter to be oddly lacking in thought for him, especially regarding 'making it difficult for the US to be friends with Venezuela'. He just got through admitting that the US was most likely involved in the coup d'etat that almost succeeded. I'd say that might be one reason for there being somewhat strained relations between Venezuela and the US, not to mention that the US has always backed his far right enemies.

Especially since Condi opened her big mouth during the 48 hours of the coup and told the world that Chavez' own people had risen up against him and that the US would back the illegitimate usurpers. There has been no change in US policy since then.

My advice to Chavez is to not trust them at all, anyone, because the US has shown no willingness to support the goals he has to make life better for his people.

I wonder who got to Carter and 'briefed' him? We all know the US wants Venezuela's oil and gas resources under their control.

[Taverner]

53. Yes he did - his first few years he did some amazing things

But once again, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely

Sad, it is...

[spanza]

177. No, he did not...

where do you get your information? Free health care and free mass education in Venezuela started in the 60's... do your homework, we were ruled by leftist governments 75% of our democratic period before Chavez (I'm not saying Chavez is not part of it...)

90% of the public universities and hospitals in Venezuela date from the 60's and the 70's.
Chavez is done little with a huge amount of money... maybe because he spends so much on the propaganda you get to hear. The reality seems to me as north-americans knew NOTHING about Venezuela before Chavez... am I wrong?

I think, for most of the people here, Venezuela, Bolivia, Colombia, El Salvador and Panama have all the same socio political background... my eyes see you people putting Alabama, Idaho, Washington and Massachusetts in the same bag. Hope I'm wrong!

[snooper2]

145. You forget some people on DU want a socialist authoritarian

running America...

[spanza]

147. Are you people really interested about Venezuela?

Interesting to see how Americans suddenly start to discuss our situation in Venezuela for the first time in History! A good thing for sure but really funny/tragic as well to notice how information travels slowly between the two worlds. You really need to understand that the situation in Venezuela is complex and leave aside symbols and stereotypes which inevitably lead to superficial analysis. Forget the Romanticism and consider facts.

1) The vast majority of small radio and tv stations that were shut down NEVER called for a coup (there are some exceptions which "justify" the whole repression though). Most often, their fault was to interview opposition politicians who where considered "too critical" by the government. Medias have 3 options: to be supporters, enemies of the Revolution and the Nation or mute about politics
2) Chavez forbids to the members of his government to accept interviews from most of the non-chavista medias.
3) This government unveiled the secrecy of the vote and published a list (lista Tascon, now shut down) through the internet with literally millions of names on it. A huge amount of people that worked for the administration appearing in that list were simply fired and could never find a job again with the public sector or even government preferential rate loans. They're just civilians who voted against the government. I know dozens of people in that case whose lifes were severely affected. My own elder brother is among them. How do you think an election could possibly be fair after that depuration in a country where the state is by very far the main employer?
4) Red shirted "civilian" shock brigades are everywhere when a tense situation emerges. They have thrown stones, bottles and even shot 5 or 6 times against demonstrations, wounding and killing people without being caught by the military police forces who just stand next to them.
5) No government in Venezuela had built less social housing in our democratic history (1958-2009)... and you may know the quantity of shantytowns and slums we have.

By the way, did you know that Venezuela was ruled by left wing governments (part of the Socialist International) for 30 out of 40 years of democracy before Chavez (1958-1998)? It may be an interesting point. The only oligarchy in our country is the state administration which has the oil industry (again, nationalization was not made by Chavez, it happened in 1976!). As a socialist, my only duty is to fight against this FASCIST government who spends millions in propaganda, weapons and speaks everyday about "the internal enemies of the Nation". One thing I'll never forget is how progressists from everywhere except latin america turned their back on us.

[Xicano]

188. Question: Authoritarianism against who?

Authoritarianism against the general masses? Or authoritarianism against the money powers or those fomenting anti-democratic revolt? I'll need more details which I know I won't get from our media.

[subcomhd]

2. This should be good.

I like Carter, and I have to admit I still like Chavez (though I don't defend everything he does) I do think he gets a raw deal in the American media a lot of times. But this has all the ingredients for some serious DU entertainment.

[Posteritatis]

3. Whar's me popcorn? (nt)

[customerserviceguy]

4. Jimmy Carter's sure getting quoted a lot these days

I'm wondering if he's considered what light it might shine on the Obama Administration.

[Judi Lynn]

76. Jimmy Carter has friends in "high places" in Venezuela, like Gustavo Cisneros,

who is also a long time "fishing buddy" to George H. W. Bush, with whom he huddled immediately following the failed coup against Hugo Chavez in 2002, at the Dominican resort owned by Cuban billionaire "exiles," Pepe and Alfie Fanjul. Gustavo Cisneros, the largest media owner in Venezuela was intimately involved in the coup, and was considered by some as the next serious candidate for Venezuela's presidency, had the coup not be firmly rejected by the Venezuelan people, once the news FINALLY got to them, getting past the total news blackout in the Venezuelan media.

Published: Thursday, January 30, 2003
Bylined to: Robert Rudnicki

George Bush senior to spend luxury holiday with Gustavo Cisneros

Former US President George P. Bush is heading to the Dominican Republic for a ;uxury holiday, where he will spend quality time with anti-government Venezuelan media tycoon Gustavo Cisneros, who President Hugo Chavez Frias accuses of leading a push for a coup d'etat to have him forcibly removed from office.

The Venezuelan leader has threatened to take action against many privately-owned media companies ... particularly the four privately-owned TV stations ... for broadcasting "seditious opposition propaganda" and a series of advertisements urging Venezuelans to support the work stoppage, which has had devastating effects on the country's economy.

Bush is set to arrive on the Caribbean island next Tuesday, where he will stay at the Casa de Campo resort owned by the Fanjul brothers, Alfi and Jose ... he will then join the Venezuelan media tycoon in several rounds of golf in the town of La Romana.

More:
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=2092

~~~~~~~~~~~

Gustavo Cisneros

Latin America's billionaire media baron. Knight of Malta. Chairman and CEO of the Cisneros Group of Companies (very prominent in Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands), which has large stakes in companies like Univision, AOL Latin America, DirecTV Latin America, and a score of other media companies. Member of the board of international directors at the United World Colleges in London, which is presided over by HRH Prince Charles. Trustee of the Rockefeller University and a friend of the Rockefellers. PR Newswire, May 4, 1992: "Cisneros, a Venezuelan native, is a member of the International Advisory Committee of the Chase Manhattan Bank, the Chairman's Council of the Americas Society and the International Advisory Council of the United States Information Agency. He is also a member of the board of overseers of the International Center for Economic Growth and the International Advisory Board of the Power Corporation of Canada. His other memberships include, but are not limited to, the International Advertising Association, the board of directors of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences in the U.S., and The 1001: A Nature Trust for the World Wildlife Fund in Switzerland." He is an outspoken critic of Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez, whom he criticizes for "arrogant abuse of power and authority." In turn, Chavez accuses him of complicity in the April 2002 coup attempt (on Chavez) and of using his private TV station Venevision to undermine the administration. Luckily for Cisneros, about 80% of his holdings are outside Venezuela. Cisneros hobnobs with U.S. friends such as Jimmy Carter and George Bush Sr. Guests at his daughter's lavish New York wedding reception in October 2002 included Kofi Annan, Sid Bass and Oscar de la Renta. He also ran BIOMA, a leading Venezuelan "environmentalist group" shut down after being caught faking dolphin killings for a campaign against the tuna fishing industry. Early in 1994, the family bank, Banco Latino, in Caracas, went broke after it was charged with fraud. His brother Ricardo, one of the directors, was fugitive for years until caught and sent to jail. Cisneros has received Spain's Order of Isabel la Católica, conferred by His Majesty King Juan Carlos I (also a 1001 Club member and Knights of Malta), for strengthening international ties between Venezuela and Spain.

http://www.isgp.eu/organisations/introduction/PEHI_Gustavo_Cisneros_bio.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~
He was also deeply involved in the attempt by the oligarchs to get Chavez out of office through a constitutional referendum. From an article regarding this period:

Monday, July 23, 2007
Gustavo Cisneros: No Deal With Chavez

Gustavo Cisneros, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the Cisneros Group. (Photo: BusinessWire)

Venezuelan media mogul Gustavo Cisneros details his 2004 meeting with Hugo Chavez.
BY GUSTAVO A. CISNEROS

~snip~
The Cisneros Organization also issued a Press Release on Tuesday, June 22, 2004, in which it affirmed that: “I attended a meeting sponsored by someone who has been a friend of Venezuela for many decades and who has honored me with his personal friendship throughout a good portion of my life. I of course am referring to the ex-President of the United States, Jimmy Carter… For President Carter, the meeting, without any agenda or negotiating points was a means of bringing about the reinstatement of one of the essential attributes of all democracies: dialogue”.

More:
http://www.latinbusinesschronicle.com/app/article.aspx?id=1466
opposition site

~~~~~~~~~~~

Venezuela's Murdoch
New Left Review 39, May-June 2006

Richard Gott on Pablo Bachelet, Gustavo Cisneros: un empresario global. Portrait of the Latino media baron—Venezuelan salesman for the American way, purveyor of soft drinks and soap operas, key conspirator in the 2002 coup attempt against Chávez.

RICHARD GOTT
VENEZUELA’S MURDOCH

With a fortune of more than $4 billion, Gustavo Cisneros likes to promote the notion of himself as the wealthiest man in Latin America and the most powerful media baron of the continent, a Latino equivalent to Murdoch or Berlusconi. Since 1961 the Organización Cisneros has owned Venevisión, the main commercial tv channel in Venezuela—best known abroad for its rabid opposition to Chávez during the 2002 coup, and ceaseless denunciation of his supporters as ‘mobs’ and ‘monkeys’. From the 1980s he has extended his empire across Latin America to include Chile’s Chilevisión and Colombia’s Caracol tv, with a major stake in DirecTV Latin America, whose satellite beams a diet of sport, game-shows, telenovelas and predigested news to twenty Latin American countries. He also has a lucrative share in Univisión, the main Spanish-language channel for the United States, and a joint Latin American internet connection venture with aol-TimeWarner.

Like many wealthy Latin Americans, Cisneros is a chameleon when it comes to nationality. Nominally a Venezuelan—he was born in Caracas in 1945, to an entrepreneurial Cuban father and Venezuelan mother—he was educated and served his media apprenticeship in the us. But he is also a citizen of Spain, at the personal request of King Juan Carlos; an American in New York, a Cuban in Miami, and a Dominican in the Dominican Republic, where his pricipal base—the Casa Bonita, close to the La Ramona beach resort—is within a golfer’s swing of the retreats of other billionaires of Cuban extraction, grown rich on the profits of sugar, rum and real estate. Cisneros’s cosmopolitan lifestyle allows him to escape the limited horizons of a Latin American country that traditionally plays in a minor league. A Venezuelan, according to a long-standing and disrespectful Latin American joke, is a Panamanian who thinks he is an Argentinian. Like so many rich Spanish Americans, Cisneros has always found his own country too small for his talents and too insecure for his accumulated fortune. As one of the shadowy figures providing American capitalism with local muscle outside the United States, he is a striking illustration of why there is no national bourgeoisie in Venezuela. Cisneros is bound hand and foot to the empire, and has been handsomely repaid.

More:
http://www.newleftreview.org/?view=2622

[followthemoney]

93. Carter started U.S. support for the Contras.

Support for the contras only became a problem when Reagan supported them.

Bad wars become good wars when Democrats back them. No screams about Afghanistan murders of civilians by Obama. I haven't heard Carter criticize Obama yet on Iraq, but he did criticize Bush for a war Democrats supported.

These parties are crap.

[IndianaGreen]

96. I never forgot that Vietnam was a Democratic war

started by a President elected on a peace platform, who in turn was followed by another President (a Republican this time) elected on another peace plan which resulted is more deaths and destruction.

The 2-party system are two wings of the same bird of prey.

[followthemoney]

98. That it is. nt

[jefferson_dem]

5. "Duh"

Sorry for the colloquialism but, seriously, Chavez's true despotic stripes have been on full display for a long time now. Glad to know President Carter sees them.

[totodeinhere]

6. Chavez = dictator

Chavez is turning into just another Latin American dictator, albeit one who originally got into power through an election. So this is the second time in recent history when I have agreed with President Carter. I also agreed with his comments about racism.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Uribe is the dictator and all of you DLC-corporatists yahoos love his murderous ways

I'll bet you love the School of the Americas and support the Honduras coup!

[totodeinhere]

13. Wow.

Jimmy Carter and those who agree with him on this issue are suddenly "DLC-corporatists yahoos." LOL.

[EFerrari]

16. Carter is siding with the DLC corporatist yahoos on this one.

The man has been repeatedly re-elected in clean elections by huge margins. If he's not a dictator by now, it's not gonna happen. A clue for $40, Alex.

[paulsby]

18. it doesn't matter who he is siding with

it matters if he is right.

and agreeing with carter, on something "dlc corporatists" also agree on doesn't MAKE one a DLC corporatist.

your argument fails on logical fallacy fronts, as well as just plain having no common sense indicators.

[EFerrari]

28. Nope. Carter is wrong. Obama threw the first stone

when as president elect, he insulted the Venezuelan president with careless and unfounded accusations.

And you fail basic reading. I didn't say Carter was a DLC corporatist yahoo, I said he was agreeing with them.

[paulsby]

31. you are correct

you didn't say carter was a DLC corporatist yahoo

and i say again, agreeign with DLC corporatist yahoos doesn't mean one is WRONG.

[EFerrari]

39. But being wrong means one is wrong.

It wasn't until after the Obama administration continued the Bush hostilities that Chavez backed off his welcoming stance. And not that far, yet, because like most of the rest of progressive LatAm, Chavez at bottom hopes Obama's admin will do better.

Their continuing support for the Pinohettis in Honduras is not helping us in the region, that's for sure. We may lose what little influence we have left there over that.

[paulsby]

44. and while

i don't think carter is wrong, i agree with what you say "being wrong means one is wrong". it's a tautology of course.

my point is that i don't care if the DLC thinks chavez is an authoritarian. that they happen to be right does not detract from the truth or falsity of chavez' (imo) obvious authoritarian nature

[EFerrari]

48. That's not a tautology, it's an equivalence.

And Carter is wrong and I can prove it. The shift in attitude started at this incident, when Obama was president elect, iirc, and made some very stupid casual comments in the American press.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0322/breaking42.htm

And as a Latina, I can't tell you how ironic it is to hear Americans disparaging democracy in Latin America when the United States has done its very best to kill it off for hundreds of years. You have a mote and beam problem.

/typo

[paulsby]

51. no, it's a tautology

"But being wrong means one is wrong."

that is a classic rhetorical tautology.

of the yogi berra variety...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric)

[EFerrari]

59. And no comment on the evidence I produced. Predictable.

Obama clearly made a decision to continue to tar Chavez and now Chavez is being blamed for that turn of events. Carter is misinformed, at best.

[paulsby]

90. that's evidence that is not dispositve imo

obama did make the decision to tar chavez because chavez is a frigging piece of shit authoritarian.

duh

i think many people here just reflexively like chavez because he thumbed his nose so exquisitely at bush.

enemy of my enemy being my friend and all...

but he's still a piece of garbage and thank god obama isn't enamored of him.

[EFerrari]

113. Obama said Chavez was involved with terrorists and was holding the region back.

Both statements were cringe-worthy and offensive. It was after he made those statements about another head of state that Chavez's attitude toward him changed.

So, it's not true that Chavez is being uncooperative with the Obama administration but rather that the Obama administration went out of its way to offend Chavez, your profound analysis of him notwithstanding.

The real irony is that it's Obama who took money from CANF during his campaign, an organization that funds terrorism against Cubans both in Miami and in Cuba, and Obama that is obstructing democracy in Latin America as his administration's embarrassing response to the Honduran coup demonstrates.

Neither decision has been lost on progressive democratic leaders in Latin America or on their voting supporters in the United States.

[paulsby]

126. i never said that

chavez was being uncooperative with the obama admin.

so, you are already misrepresentin' if you are using that claim to refute.

i said he was an authoritarian piece o shit and obama (and carter) recognize that

good for them

[IsItJustMe]

136. The names of the players change (i.e. Bush, Obama) but the policy remains the same. Sad.

[EFerrari]

140. Well, the Federal goverment is fully in the hands of corporate interests.

I expect Obama will do what he can but yeah, it is disappointing even though by now I should know better.

[SOS]

153. Re: corporate interests

It is noteworthy that Carter has never publicly criticized Saudi Arabia, one of the worst human rights abusing nations on earth.

[Wilms]

20. Cater isn't siding with Corporates. The AP is cherry-picking.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/euycanada/ex-presidente-estadounidense-jimmy-carter-lamenta-el-rumbo-adoptado-por-hugo-chavez-en-venezuela_6151627-1&ei=una2Ssu6JYf-sQOhuqSeDQ&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Jimmy%2BCarter%2522%2Bchavez%2B%2522El%2BTiempo%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26tbo%3D1%26tbs%3Dqdr:d

-on edit-

You should know better! :spank:

:7

[Joe Chi Minh]

58. Ain't that the truth? Even if it is like the sun rising in the morning.

If these people who tells lies for political reasons read the Psalm and really believed in God, they'd die of fright.

[EFerrari]

62. Yeah, you're probably right. I should.

I better go back to looking for a French bread recipe before another one of these threads eats another unrecoverable 30 minutes of my life. lol

[DrCory]

79. LOL!

Criticize Hugo Chavez and you're a DLC corporatist yahoo who loves Uribe, torture, and the SOA?

[Pavulon]

94. Sound like a kid told santa is not real..

the tooth fairy is actually mommy and hugo is not leaving office alive in the near future. That guy is there to stay, he only leaves if another coup leader like himself, ends his term with a gun. Maybe he does it putin style, but probably not.

Peaceful transition of power form him is going to be castro style. When he dies in the throne.

Yep, it was not sainty clause coming down the chimney with your bike. And those are the breaks. Your messiah is falling from grace.

[David__77]

57. He "gets into power" through elections ALL THE TIME!

There is not "initially." Venezuela has held tons of elections and more democratic than US certainly with its undemocratic senate and electoral college.

[ro1942]

64. Chavez has a big problem

it's called capitalism,and all the propaganda that comes with it. They are trying to bury him.

[bitchkitty]

185. totodeinhere = ignorant

...

[onehandle]

7. DU's 'President for Life?' Say it ain't so! nt

[UTUSN]

9. K&R #3 to document there *was* a Rec#3 before the Huguito Brigade did its UnReKKKing!1 n/t

[IndianaGreen]

12. Chavez has done more for the working class in Venezuela than either Clinton or Obama

have done for ours.

[SIMPLYB1980]

21. delete

[SIMPLYB1980]

22. And Mussolini "made the trains run on time"

Doesn't mean he wasn't a dictator.

[imdjh]

40. That's kind of like being ugly and winning the lottery.

[imdjh]

38. Like?

[EFerrari]

49. Are you kidding?

[Joe Chi Minh]

55. Kidding? Telling the truth? What's the difference to them? If they were as honest as

Pontius Pilate, I expect they'd answer, "What is truth"? But there's been a deafening, if prudent, silence from His Nibs.

[imdjh]

60. Come on Lizzie, say it. What did he do that you like?

[EFerrari]

63. I've done my time with rude assholes for today, thanks. n/t

[Wilms]

82. Do me a favor and wrap your head in a towel before youread any further.

Head explosions are messy.



snip

Far from ruining the country, here are some of the good things the Chavez government has accomplished:

* A land reform program designed to assist small farmers and the landless poor has been instituted-this past March a large landed estate owned by a British beef company was occupied by agrarian workers for farming purposes

* Education is now free (right through to university level), causing a dramatic increase in grade school enrollment

* The government has set up a marine conservation program and is taking steps to protect the land and fishing rights of indigenous peoples

* Special banks now assist small enterprises, worker cooperatives, and farmers

* Attempts to further privatize the state-run oil industry-80 percent of which is still publicly owned-have been halted and limits have been placed on foreign capital penetration

* Chavez kicked out U.S. military advisors and prohibited overflights by U.S. military aircraft engaged in counterinsurgency in Colombia

* "Bolivarian Circles" have been organized throughout the nation, neighborhood committees designed to activate citizens at the community level to assist in literacy, education, vaccination campaigns, and other public services

* The government hires unemployed men, on a temporary basis, to repair streets and neglected drainage and water systems in poor neighborhoods

Then there is the health program. I visited a dental clinic in Chavez's home state of Barinas. The staff consisted of four dentists, two of whom were young Venezuelan women. The other two were Cuban men who were there on a one-year program. The Venezuelan dentists noted that in earlier times dentists did not have enough work. There were millions of people who needed treatment, but care was severely rationed by one's ability to pay. Dental care was distributed like any other commodity, not to everyone who needed it, but only to those who could afford it.
When the free clinic in Barinas first opened it was flooded with people seeking dental care. No one was turned away. Even opponents of the Chavez government availed themselves of the free service, temporarily putting aside their political aversions.

snip

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Parenti/GoodThings_Venezuela.html


And there's more there. Go rub your own nose in it.

[imdjh]

108. All that and you didn't mention her favorite.

[UTUSN]

97. Sweetie, from me to you: Unlike Huguito, who ain't beautiful INSIDE *or* OUTSIDE!11

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bitchkitty]

186. Your point being....

Maybe it's just early. I don't get why you post a picture of a pretty man in response to a post that has nothing to do with pretty men.

[Wilms]

36. Well I'll go rec it for ya.

Have a translation so you don't have to continue to rely on the US corporate media for your opinions.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/euycanada/ex-presidente-estadounidense-jimmy-carter-lamenta-el-rumbo-adoptado-por-hugo-chavez-en-venezuela_6151627-1&ei=una2Ssu6JYf-sQOhuqSeDQ&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Jimmy%2BCarter%2522%2Bchavez%2B%2522El%2BTiempo%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26tbo%3D1%26tbs%3Dqdr:d

[EFerrari]

11. Jimmy Carter is blaming Chavez for Obama continuing Bush policies in Latin America.

:crazy:

[Joe Chi Minh]

47. Carter should know better. He had the dirty done on him by enemies within with

their October surpise. Unfortunately for Jimmy, sedition was institutionalised to an enormous depth, and he could have done nothing about it. Whatever the constraints on Obama, I don't doubt that he knows the score in this situation.

He should remember the immortal words of Porfirio Diaz, a one-time Mexican president: "Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States!" A country under permanent siege by geopolitical enemies is bound to become more authoritarian or it will go under. All the more so, since Chavez hasn't got a grip of the fascists still trying to overthrow his democratically-elected government from within.

Another leader, certainly Diaz, would, at the very least, have seized the brazenly seditious TV companies and press long ago. But he has been learning the hard way the truth of Churchill's words, that fascists are either at your feet or at your throat. And Churchill had something of an inside track on fascism, himself, having been a rabid supporter of Mussolini at one time.

[EFerrari]

50. I fully expect Carter to be attacked on the right for being so mild

in expressing his regret.

[Joe Chi Minh]

61. LOL! I hadn't thought of that!

[ro1942]

69. You hit it, thanks

We have brutalized S. America for time immemorial.

[Wilms]

17. Here's a translation from El Tiempo.

Shocking, just shocking, to realize the AP cherry-picked a snip.

A two word snip from the AP and the DLC interns get out a pop-corn popper. :eyes:

Pathetic.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/euycanada/ex-presidente-estadounidense-jimmy-carter-lamenta-el-rumbo-adoptado-por-hugo-chavez-en-venezuela_6151627-1&ei=una2Ssu6JYf-sQOhuqSeDQ&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Jimmy%2BCarter%2522%2Bchavez%2B%2522El%2BTiempo%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26tbo%3D1%26tbs%3Dqdr:d

[EFerrari]

24. Right. It's also true, though, that Chavez quietly supported Obama

and extended his regard to him and Obama turns around and accuses him of pal- ing around with terrorists in the American media when O was president elect. Obama will be a disappointment to the progressive community in Latin America and that's too bad.

[tama]

46. Here:

Speaking of Venezuela, what do you think of Hugo Chávez?
Lo conozco bien. I know him well. El Centro Carter ha estado involucrado en cuatro o cinco elecciones, algunas de las cuales han sido muy complicadas. The Carter Center has been involved in four or five elections, some of which were very difficult. Diría que cada resultado electoral ha sido básicamente compatible con la voluntad del pueblo. I would say that every election result was basically consistent with the will of the people. Así lo he visto de manera casi consistente en el pasado. So I saw an almost consistent in the past.

Chávez ha salido adelante en una elección honesta con casi 60 ó 62 por ciento de los votos. Chavez has gone ahead in an honest election with almost 60 or 62 percent of the vote. Dicho eso, pienso que su popularidad dentro de su país ha decrecido y que su influencia también ha decrecido en otras naciones. That said, I think his popularity in his country had decreased and that its influence has declined in other nations. Pero lo veo como alguien que trajo, quizás, una transformación necesaria a Venezuela al dejar que aquellos antiguamente excluidos tuvieran una participación más igualitaria en la riqueza nacional. But I see him as someone who brought perhaps a necessary change to Venezuela to let those formerly excluded were more equal participation in national wealth.

Eso lo hizo bien en años pasados, particularmente cuando estaba inundado de recursos petroleros. That he did well in past years, particularly when it was flooded with oil resources. Ahora que estos han caído, estoy crecientemente preocupado acerca de la inclinación de Chávez de consolidar todo el poder político de manera incremental en su propia oficina, en desmedro de la influencia de un poder judicial independiente, que es necesario, ya veces también de órganos autónomos dentro de la administración, aparte del poder legislativo que controla casi completamente ahora. Now that these have fallen, I am increasingly concerned about Chavez's inclination to consolidate all political power incrementally in his own office and away from the influence of an independent judiciary, it is necessary, and sometimes autonomous bodies within the administration, apart from the legislature that controls almost completely now.

No le echo la culpa de todos esos problemas, porque creo que la oposición política ha sido mal asesorada como cuando boicoteó las elecciones parlamentarias. Do not blame all these problems, because I think the political opposition has been badly advised as when it boycotted the parliamentary elections. Pero no creo que haya dudas. I do not think there's any question. Personalmente me ha decepcionado al verlo apartarse de lo que considero era una oportunidad justa y honesta que fue el resultado de elecciones legítimas, hacia una dominación en aumento de su parte que lo ha llevado a tener un Gobierno más autoritario. Personally I was disappointed to see him depart from what I think was a fair chance and honestly that was the result of legitimate elections, to an increasing domination on his part that led him to have a more authoritarian government.

[EFerrari]

56. "No le echo la culpa de todos esos problemas" = "I don't blame him

for all of those problems".

[Judi Lynn]

101. Thanks for posting that link! I had no idea one could get this result.

I have always copied and pasted the Spanish text in there. Never took the time to notice more could be done with this site. This is far, FAR better.

Your link is tremendously helpful.

[Wilms]

109. Glad to pitch in. It ain't like the Associated Press will do it!

Meanwhile, I'm impressed by the tenacity of the incurious opposition and how, by it's nature, it lacks capacity to recognize it's apparent gullibility.

[DissedByBush]

26. Maybe someone will finally believe me now

I know there are some Chavez loyalists here who would stay behind him even if he were caught shooting the children of dissidents in the middle of the street. They can't be helped.

But now you know that it's not just right-wingers who have problems with Chavez, so you can quit labeling his critics as right-wingers.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Seems like the last time children were shot, it was in Afghanistan by NATO troops

I don't believe Venezuela has any troops in Afghanistan.

[EFerrari]

33. But saying that Chavez is creating a problem with the American government

is a right wing meme. He didn't insult Obama. He supported Obama.

Obama insulted him when he had his hand out to the new president.

It's people who look for verification of their beliefs over facts that can't be helped, not the students of Venezuela on this board

[Cha]

71. It's so touching how you defend Chavez and slam President Obama.

[IndianaGreen]

72. Has Obama recalled his Cuban-American ambassador from Honduras yet?

Obama's opposition to the Honduran coup is as passionate as his support for single payer.

[EFerrari]

89. The facts are the facts. Is it a slam to describe Obama's actual behavior?

Take it up with him.

[Wilms]

34. Maybe someone will finally read what Carter actually said.

Here. It won't hurt.


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/euycanada/ex-presidente-estadounidense-jimmy-carter-lamenta-el-rumbo-adoptado-por-hugo-chavez-en-venezuela_6151627-1&ei=una2Ssu6JYf-sQOhuqSeDQ&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Jimmy%2BCarter%2522%2Bchavez%2B%2522El%2BTiempo%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26tbo%3D1%26tbs%3Dqdr:d

[tama]

54. Now?

There's allways been criticism of Chavez from left (of Chavez). Inside and outside Venezuela.

That's what leftists do best: criticize. :)

Lately, haven't been following closely. Wish Venezuela all the best.

Which bring to mind, would be interesting, once in a while, to see some constructive criticism of Venezuelan revolution from the critics from the "center".

[spanza]

150. THANKS!

..from a venezuelan socialist who considers Chavez as a FASCIST. Americans can be so naive that they consider the possibility of a paratrooper head of state with military ministers creating a left-wing progressive government! Their only interest in our case comes from symbols and stereotypes.

[and-justice-for-all]

27. I am sure the US will do what it always does

when another country does something it does not like; they will have the democratically elected president killed and put a Pinochet in his place.

But Chavez is being "authoritarian"....:eyes: what ever.

[struggle4progress]

30. .. Jimmy Carter lamenta el rumbo adoptado por Hugo Chávez en Venezuela

Ex presidente estadounidense Jimmy Carter lamenta el rumbo adoptado por Hugo Chávez en Venezuela

... También hay una clara diferencia entre dos puntos de vista: el representado por Venezuela y sus aliados en el Alba, y otro impulsada por México, Colombia o Perú. ¿Eso le preocupa?
No realmente. Siempre tuve que recordar que en un continente como África o América Latina, cada país es individual y no se pueden hacer generalizaciones pensando que hay homogeneidad, cuando lo que existe es heterogéneo ... Creo que hay un compromiso bastante unánime en América Latina sobre la preservación de la democracia. Eso ha sido puesto a prueba en circunstancias bastante severas, recientemente en Honduras ...

Hablando de Venezuela, ¿qué piensa de Hugo Chávez?
... Diría que cada resultado electoral ha sido básicamente compatible con la voluntad del pueblo ... Pero lo veo como alguien que trajo, quizás, una transformación necesaria a Venezuela al dejar que aquellos antiguamente excluidos tuvieran una participación más igualitaria en la riqueza nacional ...

¿Qué hay acerca de sus críticas a E.U.?
En ese caso también tengo emociones encontradas. Creo que no hay ninguna duda de que en el 2002, E.U. tenía al menos pleno conocimiento o pudo estar directamente involucrado en el golpe ...

http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/euycanada/ex-presidente-estadounidense-jimmy-carter-lamenta-el-rumbo-adoptado-por-hugo-chavez-en-venezuela_6151627-1


Roughly, with the help of Google translation:

... There is a clear difference between two points of view: the one represented by Venezuela and its allies in Alba, and another led by Mexico, Colombia or Peru. Does that worry you?
Not really. I always remember that in a continent like Africa or Latin America, each country is individual, and one can't generalize and believe that there is uniformity, when it's heterogeneous ... I think there is pretty unanimous commitment in Latin America on the preservation of democracy. This has been tested in very severe circumstances, most recently in Honduras ...

Speaking of Venezuela, what do you think of Hugo Chávez?
... I would say that every election result was basically consistent with the will of the people ... I see him as someone who brought, perhaps, a necessary transformation to Venezuela to let those formerly excluded share more equally in the national wealth ...

What about his criticism of U.S.?
In that case I also have mixed emotions. I believe there is no doubt that in 2002, the US at least had full knowledge of or was directly involved in the coup ...

[Better Today]

52. As compared to who? Like say Bush/Cheney type authoritarian? And Obama

seemingly keeping a great number of the bs policies that infringe on our privacy and rights?

Perhaps if we worry about our own freedoms and let Venezuelans worry about theirs, ....

[EFerrari]

66. We're free to fund death squads in Colombia, Peru and now Honduras!

[dipsydoodle]

65. When the USA critizes Azerbaijan in that way

they might have some credibility. Until then STFU might be in order.

[LeftishBrit]

67. Carter's making an important point here..

Chavez is probably a lot better than anyone that the Bushies would have liked to see in his place; but that still doesn't make him a model of good leadership.

[EFerrari]

68. Carter didn't say that. He said that he regrets the incremental

concentration of power in the executive. Even if that is true, which is highly debatable, it's a situation that all democracies deal with -- including what is left of our own. And Carter noted that Chavez has been constantly under attack, including in an attempted coup that the United States either knew about or directly participated in.

[twitomy]

70. Authortarian! ?Who would've thunk!!!

Well, Mr Carter sure does have a keen sense of the obvious!

[Indenturedebtor]

75. I predict heads exploding over this...

:popcorn:

[JonQ]

77. Now they'll have to start denouncing Carter as an evil

rightwing, imperialist racist.

[Judi Lynn]

78. No, they will remember he's good friends with Venezuela's most powerful media owner. n/t

[cali]

80. lol of course, carter's just an apologist for corporatists

siding with his evil friends over the saintly hugo.

too funny.

[Dreamer Tatum]

84. There are other instances of such blind loyalism

but, historically, it's mostly been applied to boy bands, like the Beatles, Duran Duran, N'Sync, and so forth.

When you throw Jimmy Carter under the bus in deference to your idol...wow. Just wow.

[EFerrari]

122. What's really funny is that since the right uses the same playbook for Obama and Chavez

the anti-Chavez crowd here winds up sounding like lost teabaggers.

LOL

[JonQ]

88. I really fear what will happen

when the chavinistas run out of excuses for dear leader. They may hurt themselves reacting in disbelief and outrage when the truth sets in.

[Psephos]

104. In other words, you think he's a sell-out.

You should have been a gymnast.

[ronnie624]

158. As an informed progressive,

Judi Lynn understands that the corporate political power structure that seeks dominance over resources and markets in Latin America, is a behemoth that exists independent of any single president, and is firmly rooted in our government by a history of doctrine that extends as far back as 1823. She clearly opposes this doctrine of hegemony, no matter which 'party' controls the White House. I have never seen any inconsistency in her position. The mental gymnastics are, in truth, found in supporting a particular politician at the expense of one's core principles.

I don't really fault Jimmy Carter for his need to hedge the truth in his assessment of Latin American politics. Like all prominent politicians, he is bound by the framework for political debate and commentary that restricts just about all publicly expressed opinions on such matters. If he spoke too much truth about U.S. interventionism in Latin America, he would likely be vilified unmercifully by the MSM, which, as one should always keep in mind, is owned and controlled by the same corporations that exercise so much control over our government and its policy establishment.

[Joanne98]

112. I didn't know that. Thanx JL

[Judi Lynn]

155. Welcome, Joanne 98.

http://www.aporrea.org.nyud.net:8090/imagenes/2003/030116/cisneros.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_vo3tCFg9vgg/Rl8eTQTBHbI/AAAAAAAABPA/Md5V0a4Cc-I/s320/Cisneros_422g.jpg

Cisneros with his two U.S. friends

[WriteDown]

116. This attempt at defamation is just sad.

So sad.

[David__77]

83. His criticism is fine, though I disagree.

Carter has a problem with a plural system resulting in one political movement achieving hegemony. I do not believe there is a need for more than one party, though more than one should be allowed. Why do we need parties with incorrect ideas?

[JonQ]

87. Yeah, dissenting views really do make things difficult

why allow that? In fact, people tend to disagree with one another, we shouldn't let them have any say in government, may cause confusion.

In only some strong, influential leader would just seize control of all branches of government, crush dissent, and force the people to bend to his will. That sounds like an ideal country to me, in no way prone to tyranny or oppression.

[David__77]

102. I disagree completely.

And my post did not express that view. I clearly said pluralism is best; however, if a certain party is correct in its ideas, then it's good if it has all power, but only if the people vote it into power. For instance, in the US, I see no benefit to having a single Republican in office, though I agree they should have the right to run.

[Psephos]

107. "if a certain party is correct in its ideas, then it's good if it has all power"

And by which oracle shall we divine who is correct and who is not?

Easy. Whoever is in power is correct...and because they are correct, they deserve all the power. Including the power to subvert the election process, whether through force (i.e., Iran) or perception management and sub rosa manipulation. (i.e., fill in the blank).

Those who believe in the cult of "correct" power and undivided government are extraordinarily naive to think that lack of opposition can somehow not lead to corruption and Animal Farm.

The greed for money that afflicts business titans is the same as the greed for power that affects government titans. Human nature is not that tough to understand.

[David__77]

110. If you don't think there's such a thing as correct, why are you here?

If there is no correct and incorrect, and every ideology is morally equivalent, why do you care who rules and who does not?

The corruption to which you refer would be immoral and incorrect and worthy of opposition.

[JonQ]

129. If you know for a fact that you are correct on every issue

why bother discussing it? Everyone else is either with you, or they're with the terro . . I mean they're wrong and should be silenced.

Personally I like to keep an open mind, and although I'm pretty sure on many things I can admit that I don't know everything and my mind may change on any given subject (it has before).

But apparently keeping an opinon mind and listening to honest debate is pointless, as you've stated, so I must be wrong on that front.

[DrCory]

174. Not Really Worth The Effort JonQ...

David_77 is a Marxist, so there can be only ONE correct ideology. Perhaps some variations within, but no serious deviation from the line is acceptable.

[JonQ]

121. An being absolutely certain that you are right and should have sole

control of the government, that never leads to abuses.

Nope, most totalitarian regimes are open to debate, and willingly admit that they don't know what's best and are eager to hear what everyone has to say.

I've heard ardent pro-kim jong il folks describe north korea as a democracy, but there are no competitive elections because everyone respects him too much (and knows that he is the best man for the job) to run against him.

Maybe we could have something like that.

[David__77]

123. Why should we "hear what everyone has to say?"

Other than through the ballot box? I mean, there are erroneous ideas. Why indulge them? I firmly believe in competitive politics. But I also want hegemony for a single progressive force if possible. The N. Korea thing is just tedious. Of course there are dissidents in N. Korea and there are no provisions for multi-candidate elections, though there are two small parties outside the ruling party.

[JonQ]

128. Why indeed?

Someone should just tell people what is right, some strong and wise leader who has no need to listen to anyone, because he knows already what is best for us.

It'll be so fun, we can have snazzy uniforms, and endearing nicknames for him (like dear leader and father of our nation), our heads won't be filled with confusing and conflicting ideas that require critical thought, and there would be so many parades. It'll be wonderful, and he would have given us the greatest freedom of all; the freedom from doubt. All we have to do is give him absolute loyalty and faith and he will reassure us that everything will work out for the best.

[WriteDown]

137. The snazzy uniforms sold me.

:)

[DrCory]

172. Who Decides What Is Incorrect?

The single party in power?
You?
Who?
And, who are you to decide whether or not a party is "needed"?

[JackRiddler]

86. This headline distorts an interview in which Carter suggests the US backed the 2002 coup.

Carter voices concerns about an authoritarian shift, yes, but only after emphasizing that Chavez is the democratically elected leader who has overseen necessary reforms that have improved the life of the people, and who was briefly overthrown by a US-backed coup d'etat. The headline is a distortion quite typical of the anti-Venezuelan propaganda that Americans are steadily fed.

[Odin2005]

92. How long before the Chavistas start calling Carter a corporatist tool?

Wait, I see they already have. :eyes:

Sorry guys, when CARTER calls you an authoritarian twit you are an authoritarian twit.

[Pavulon]

95. You are guilty of Deicide

from medieval Latin dei- ("god"), and -cida, from the verb caedere ("to cut down").

Among some here he walks on water, or oil, he walks on crude tar oil..

[Odin2005]

103. Well thank you, I like killing gods.

:)

[Mudoria]

99. President Carter nails it again like he so often does.

[roamer65]

105. Delete.

[roamer65]

106. I respect what President Carter has to say.

While I always may not agree with him (as in this case), he is a very wise man.

I am sure the Venezuelan people can sort it out, WITHOUT our interference.

[SuperTrouper]

141. I agree. We in the USA should not interfere in Latin America's business...like in

Venezuela, Colombia, and Honduras. We have so many problems here and they may be 1000 dictators in Latin America but they are of no concern to us. Obama should be careful because if we are seen as meddling in other countries' crises then he will be distracted from doing the people's business which was the main reason he was elected President.

[Joanne98]

111. When your constantly under attack by coupsters you have to become that way.

[Vidar]

131. You're making too much sense again, Joanne.

I would welcome some authoritarian action here against corporate criminals as well. A strong leader isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[SuperTrouper]

142. Chavez' time is limited in Venezuela. He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

Chavez will be gone before Obama's second term is over. Only Lula and Bachelet are being supported by a significant majority of their people. Evo Morales, Rafael Correa and Cristina Kirschner will be history soon as is Zelaya now (no matter where he hides in Honduras...Zelaya will be in prison by October 1st, remember that you read it here first)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

144. WTF are you talking about? Rafael Correa has won re-election by one of the biggest margins in

Ecuador's history. He enjoys high approval ratings. As far as Morales is concerned. He should win re-election easily.

http://insidecostarica.com/special_reports/2009/2009-09/bolivia_race.htm

[anonymous171]

152. Oh yes, it's all because of the omnipresent oligarchy.

[WriteDown]

114. Wow, even the Chavistas could not unrec this thread. nt.

[WriteDown]

115. Okay, this needs to be thrown in here...

Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!

[Wilms]

117. Have you read the interview?

Or are you just munching on the two word snip the AP would shove down your throat except for you lapping it up like a DLC intern?

[WriteDown]

118. Huh?

Not sure what you are talking about.

[Wilms]

119. Proves my point. n/t

[WriteDown]

120. If you say so..

:rofl:

You sound a bit humorless though. You need to relax.

[Ignis]

124. "Let's see what the excuse makers have to say."

Phew! For a moment there I was worried you wanted to start a real, in-depth discussion.

Some days I think people didn't learn a single goddamn thing from the last 50 years of US interference in Latin America.

[bemildred]

132. Gosh, how did I know this was an AP story? nt

[scot]

135. Becoming!?!?!?

Who woke you up, Jimma?

[Forkboy]

138. Why are you listening to Carter now? You called him a loser the other day.

I guess when he agrees with you he's suddenly the smartest guy in the room. Such a sad excuse for a Democrat.

He's a professional doom and gloomer

Just like McGovern, Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis. All losers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8656737#8656757

Let's hear YOUR excuse. :rofl:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

143. Good catch, I can't wait to hear it. nt

[Forkboy]

146. Don't hold your breath. The OP is a hit and run deal.

He didn't even care about the replies to it.

[fascisthunter]

157. lol... whatever works for the spinsters

I'm glad the mods let this thread stay up. Its quite amusing and informative.

[spanza]

148. Are you people really interested about Venezuela?

Interesting to see how Americans suddenly start to discuss our situation in Venezuela for the first time in History! A good thing for sure but really funny/tragic as well to notice how information travels slowly between the two worlds. You really need to understand that the situation in Venezuela is complex and leave aside symbols and stereotypes which inevitably lead to superficial analysis. Forget the Romanticism and consider facts.

1) The vast majority of small radio and tv stations that were shut down NEVER called for a coup (there are some exceptions which "justify" the whole repression though). Most often, their fault was to interview opposition politicians who where considered "too critical" by the government. Medias have 3 options: to be supporters, enemies of the Revolution and the Nation or mute about politics
2) Chavez forbids to the members of his government to accept interviews from most of the non-chavista medias.
3) This government unveiled the secrecy of the vote and published a list (lista Tascon, now shut down) through the internet with literally millions of names on it. A huge amount of people that worked for the administration appearing in that list were simply fired and could never find a job again with the public sector or even government preferential rate loans. They're just civilians who voted against the government. I know dozens of people in that case whose lifes were severely affected. My own elder brother is among them. How do you think an election could possibly be fair after that depuration in a country where the state is by very far the main employer?
4) Red shirted "civilian" shock brigades are everywhere when a tense situation emerges. They have thrown stones, bottles and even shot 5 or 6 times against demonstrations, wounding and killing people without being caught by the military police forces who just stand next to them.
5) No government in Venezuela had built less social housing in our democratic history (1958-2009)... and you may know the quantity of shantytowns and slums we have.

By the way, did you know that Venezuela was ruled by left wing governments (part of the Socialist International) for 30 out of 40 years of democracy before Chavez (1958-1998)? It may be an interesting point. The only oligarchy in our country is the state administration which has the oil industry (again, nationalization was not made by Chavez, it happened in 1976!). As a socialist, my only duty is to fight against this FASCIST government who spends millions in propaganda, weapons and speaks everyday about "the internal enemies of the Nation". One thing I'll never forget is how progressists from everywhere except latin america turned their back on us.

[Wilms]

151. I read what you wrote the first time. Can you post links supporting it?

Thanks.

[spanza]

160. some links

About the radios (opinion article in spanish)
http://nantes.indymedia.org/article/18099

About the list (lista Tascon)
http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=pr/200512061532
http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/categories/tasconSFascistList/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFE0na_MecA&hl=fr (made by a center-right ngo (corresponding to "democrats" in the us maybe), 43 min in 5 parts)

The national police and workers' demonstrations (last jan., 2 killed, min 2:40)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eki9x1FU-A&feature=related

Re-militarization
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwQRsRj4ku4&feature=channel_page (same ngo... in 3 parts)

Cult of personality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlJ2N9ti2Zs&feature=channel_page (same ngo... in 2 parts)

Concerning the housing (my Ph D subject) you'll have to believe my words
From 1990 to 1998, with low oil prices and a severe economic crisis, 610.000 were built
From 1999 to 2007, with high oil prices from 2003, 250.000
EVERY year, the government talks about its plans to build 200.000 and this information is relayed by the media

Our legitimate government is inefficient, corrupt, reactionary, nationalist, militarist.... and the militaries and businessmen in power just love big oil money, 18 year old whisky and expensive german cars. Do you really think a paratrooper surrounded by army men can become the leader of a progressist revolution?

[EFerrari]

163. vcrisis, really? Why not go straight to AEI -- that's where they get all their material.

lol

[Wilms]

165. I'm open to learning...and did as result of exploring your links.

I'm not finding myself particularly moved, though.

I'm sorry I don't know Spanish. But even still, you've linked mostly opinion and propaganda pieces. Correct?

Can you get me a bit more apprised of "The List"? It looks like voter registration e-polling stuff. What's the issue?

And why are you trying to pin the Mitsubishi incident on Chavez? Even the Union said they weren't blaming him. http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4172

Meanwhile, you got a Ph D studying Venezuelan housing and you can't provide any back-up?

If this is the extent of the oppositions argument, you have to be impressed how many people are duped by it.

[spanza]

175. Lista Tascon and....

The Tascon List has nothing to do with a "voter registration e-polling stuff". It's just a register with the names and pictures of the voters which says if they voted for or against Chavez. Read my first post again and you'll understand what it was used for. Even the chavistas finally accepted that it was totally immoral and anti-democratic... after some 3 or 4 years of punishment!

Some of the links I sent you were indeed a bit of propaganda pieces. 99% of the articles you'll find about such political situations are that way, I don't think you're naive. The point was not what they said but the images and the functioning of the Lista Tascon software. I also wanted you to see our supreme court judges and magistrates shouting "Fatherland, Socialism or Death"... you can get your own opinion by putting aside the biased part and concentrating on some facts and words from Chavez in those "center right wing ngo" (as I warned you) documentaries, that's it.

Concerning the housing problem, you shouldn't be surprised by the absence of back-up since you were asking for "links". The only way would be for me to share historical data with you would be to send you books from CONAVI which are not even published. Do you know the huge trouble with having "on line" stats in a country such as Venezuela?

Finally, you shouldn't think immediately "opposition" when you hear my criticism. I'm just a single person who happens to have an opinion. My political convictions have always been clear, I'm a liberal socialist and I voted for Chavez the first 2 or 3 times. But living in such a complex and subtle reality and watching the fast degradation of the original intentions, the rise of militarism and the authoritarian way my country is ruled, I've rejected this regime. The stupidity of a big part of the "opposition" doesn't anyhow justify that. I simply think this guy is a bit crazy and he's not using the huge power and money he has for the benefit of the people. His "leftist Revolution" (the 6th in our History) happened in 1998 and then became a nonsense. But that's only a point of view from an "insider".

Cheers

[Wilms]

182. "Voted for or against Chavez"? It wasn't an election.

It was a petition to hold a recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasc%C3%B3n_List

All the juicy parts say "citation needed.


Are their contemporary news links to this housing problem you mention? If it's that big a deal, there might be a blog or something about it.

It's ok with me that you've soured on Chavez. Democracy allows that. But it doesn't allow coups. And that was done. And that's a huge wound. I think that was part of what Carter said.

Meanwhile, it seems popular opinion, however modest the majority, remains favorable toward him. Run your candidate. Long live democracy in Venezuela.

[spanza]

184. Long live...

but you're missing the point. My fault, I should have said 'signed against or didn't sign against...'

Can you understand the implications of publishing in the internet a register that includes the names of all the electors and next to it the mention "signed against the president" or "didn't sign against the president"? What would be the use of such a thing in a democracy according to you?
Can you imagine all government offices equipped with the software and checking it when receiving demands from citizens?
What happens if you're a state worker and your name appears on the list saying "signed against the president"?
What's the extent of that in a country where the public sector is by very very far the main employer? Can you imagine the number of people who were fired from the administration? What do you think happened to people asking for subventions or credit in the state institutions while appearing on the list?

Let me remind you that a petition to hold a revocative referendum (in this case the president's revocation) in a participative democracy is an official electoral act and no information about who signed what can be revealed by the Electoral Council. Why did this EC give an authorization to a chavista deputy (Luis Tascon) for collecting the names of the ones who signed? The government said it was because of fake signatures being introduced by the opposition. They said they wanted to 'give the electors that were 'cheated' an opportunity to retire their names'. Let's say that's true. But then, why did they keep the list online for 3 years?

I already sent you the images of Chavez threatening "remember that if you sign your names will be there, next to your id card, fingerprints and picture" during the campaign for the retirement of signatures.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFE0na_MecA (00:42... don't tell me it's propaganda, it's just him talking. By the way you should check 6:39 too)

I understand you're skeptical. I just ask you to be equally skeptical when considering both sides of the story.

Maybe you should stop linking the entire 'opposition' with the 2002 coup. It's a propagandistic argument which is used for repression against dissidence and criticism. Yesterday's 'camarada' has become a 'CIA infiltrated fascist, internal enemy of the Revolution' when he doesn't agree anymore. Today's opposition is composed by a huge diversity of people including those who agreed with the coup, those who disagreed and many of those who were still chavistas at that time. Remember one thing, the 'opposition' nowadays is a heterogeneous group that includes demo-cristians, socio democrats, socialists, communists, anarchists. I never supported a coup, neither the one Chavez failed in 1992 (may I cite you 'Democracy allows that. But it doesn't allow coups. And that was done. And that's a huge wound') against the IMF reforms oriented government (which I strongly opposed), nor the 2002 coup. Please note that.

To me Chavez is NOT an illegitimate president, just a really bad one. He could have done miracles with the money he's had from the oil boom and he's done a LOT less from a SOCIAL point of view than the socio democrats when they were in power during the 60's and the 70's. For example, almost all the public universities (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Universidades_de_Venezuela) and hospitals were constructed in those days.. And remember the 'missions' that put a dispensary in a slum don't replace a hospital even if they are a good thing.

And what does it mean 'however modest the majority'? Strange insinuation you did there... maybe you think I'm rich and don't consider poor people's vote has the same value just because I'm not chavista? That would be a huge stereotype.

Try to accept the fact that there is a considerable progressive leftist 'opposition' in Venezuela. Time will tell.

[EFerrari]

162. LOL.

:rofl:

[fascisthunter]

156. shucks... we won't throw Carter under the bus

as the righties on this site want to portray us. Listen up fools, most folks on DU aren't like you... we don't swallow right wing propaganda, especially after it's been dis-proven. Try hard denigrating the people who defend Chavez all you want, but did ya really need to make up shit too? Such as claiming that "we" will throw Carter under a bus out of political fanatiscism or some weird idolatry for another political figure.

We don't do that sort of thing, not like you do.

I like Carter, but disagree with his concern. A mind-blowing concept for you all, I know. I also like Chavez yet disagree with his actions sometimes too... yet there is no compromise, not even when arguing, you never admit you are wrong, even though several on this site have proven, time and again, that you are wrong.

COme to think of it, let's apply your sophistry to our President. I worry that Obama may be shifting America to a more authoritarian country/government as well(continuing wiretapping, not holding Bush and Cheney accountable, continuing Bush and Cheney's policies, continuing the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan...). Those things actually give the powerful a pass, while screwing us average Americans out of tax money, blood, and our rights! Want me to prove how authoritarian this country and its politicians are? Go and protest the G20 and see how free you are to express your disapproval?

You hypocritically apply a much higher standard to a leftist foreign President who won't adopt your narrow thinking in regards to economics. Not because he disapproves of protests, as you tried to claim, but were disproven. No, Chavez's big problem for you is that he doesn't allow the wealthy class and corporations to dictate policies which harm all citizens of his country. Who is the real extremist here? Who are the real authoritarians? I would look into a mirror if I were you, but that what makes me, and many others on this site so different from you. It doesn't get anymore transparent than that.

So, have fun running with a quote by Carter, because ya look silly.

[spanza]

161. economics?!

Chavez hasn't changed a bit of the IMF reforms your politicians imposed to us in 1989!
I may agree on what you said about cons but you really should focus on how an oil centered country works when talking about Venezuela. If only people could eat revolutionary symbols..

The new wealthy class dictates "policies which harm all citizens of his/my country"... it's called "getting your part of the juicy oil pie by being part of the government network"
I mean it, brother, look closer!

[EFerrari]

164. What a bunch of crapola. LOL.

Unfortunately for you, there are a lot of people who didn't just fall off of a turnip truck.

If you want to sell this baloney, I suggest you go over to Free Republic. You'll have much better luck there because no one there knows who to check poverty rates or food security or any other economic indicator but their Momma's wallet. :hi:

[spanza]

167. nice logic you have..

So you think I should go to a reactionary american forum in order to criticize the IMF policies imposed to latin american countries since the 80's... hmmm, pretty smart!
I didn't talk about poverty or food security. I was talking about repression and intimidation.You should read and respond instead of reacting because that's how you become reactionary, my friend. Just like the ones you oppose.

Do you think there's no leftist "opposition" in Venezuela? Is anyone strongly criticizing this government and its "revolution" is an "internal enemy" or a "fascist cia infiltrated oligarch" as Chavez says?

[EFerrari]

169. Yes, you did. "If only people could eat revolutionary symbols."

But if you want to talk about "repression and intimidation" again, you'd do better at Free Republic where they lap up right wing fascist fairy tales with a spoon. :hi:

[spanza]

170. you're just another worshiper..

"But if you want to talk about "repression and intimidation" again, you'd do better at Free Republic"
Is that really what you think?

I criticize your idol because
1) he uniforms government officials in red and makes them shout "FATHERLAND, SOCIALISM or DEATH!" standing with the military every time there's an official act,
2) he spends thousands of millions buying airplanes and submarines that would be totally useless in a confrontation against the Empire, assuring the most juicy commissions to our high ranked military (look at the business banks he's opening in Russia),
3) he orders to publish a register in the internet with data from 12 million venezuelans which tells if they voted for or against him and is used as a tool of "repression and intimidation" (administrative workers fired, government loans unaccessible, etc..)
4) his social policies are superficial, insufficient and conditioned by political support, when he's benefited from the most incredible oil shock, making his government the richest of our history,
5) he doesn't even allow non chavistas to speak in the public media
6) he's totally obsessed with the "INTERNAL ENEMIES of the GLORIOUS REVOLUTION"

And you tell me it's a "right wing fascist fairy tale"?! Be logic, you should at least say a "left wing socio-liberal fairy tale"! :shrug:

You're a funny guy, aren't you? :hi:

[fascisthunter]

171. fascist fairy tales

perfect

[spanza]

181. you're boss of mundo gringolito..

you're right, you know better !!
:patriot: :hi:

[fascisthunter]

183. Oh, I know I do...lol

[spanza]

187. no kidding brother

seriously hunter, it's pretty impressive!

You know the truth of a complex world far away from yours without having put a foot inside it.. have you?
We really need the transfer of that technology here in the simple primitive easy to understand world of ours.
You even managed to make me understand that the reality I've been living in for the last 11 years was a 'fascist fairy tale'!
But you're a fascisthunter in a fascist world after all... I guess that's what it takes.
Nice talking to you camarada.

[EFerrari]

176. Enjoy your stay at DU.

:)

[spanza]

180. Funny indeed!

I knew it..

[DireStrike]

166. I am forced to agree.

However, what is the "proper" solution when your enemy is a well-organized authoritarian group?

Populist authoritarianism. What a concept. I'm not sure what else will work. They only understand raw power.

[BOG PERSON]

168. Well, Carter ought to know a tyrant when he sees one

[ShortnFiery]

173. Carter had no love lost for "the Shah" ... Carter is an excellent judge of character. eom

[Mudoria]

179. Carter is right as usual

[Truthway]

189. Chavez

Chavez is sexy in Red

[barb162]

190. Becoming??? He's been that way for a few years now. n/t