Venezuelan on Recall Sheet Comes Forward

[windansea]

For all you Chavez supporters...your hero just got caught on National TV in Venezuela lying....


Venezuelan on Recall Sheet Comes Forward

Monday March 8, 2004 8:01 PM


CARACAS, Venezuela - A man President Hugo Chavez claimed was dead begs to differ with the Venezuelan leader. ``I'm not dead. I'm alive and kicking,'' 61-year-old Emiliano Chavez Rosales said in comments published Monday by El Universal newspaper.

Chavez Rosales also said he signed a petition for a vote to recall the president, who alleged the signature was bogus during a speech to foreign ambassadors on Friday.

``I'm sure Emiliano Chavez doesn't exist,'' the president said, holding up a copy of the petition form. He pointed to an identification number accompanying the signature - No. 2,550,083 - saying it belonged to a dead woman.

In local interviews, Chavez Rosales insisted the number is his. A search of the country' voter database turned up Chavez Rosales' name and the same number.

http://65.54.174.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=2674d97ad97e594f37c3cce3721c82d8&lat=1078780164&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2eguardian%2eco%2euk%2fworldlatest%2fstory%2f0%2c1280%2c%2d3837155%2c00%2ehtml

[AP]

1. What kind of link is that?

[muriel_volestrangler]

2. Try this link

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/03/08/international1439EST0623.DTL

not that I can see this proves anything one way or the other.

[arcos]

8. it's a Hotmail link...

the correct link to the Guardian story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3837155,00.html

[windansea]

37. thanks for that

:)

[AP]

52. Who's emailing you these stories?

[Tinoire]

59. Need you ask? Strangely enough the same stories show

up on RW boards as "truth" and right about the same time they get posted here.

The Ministry of Propaganda is verybust these days. The faster we expose Bush, the quicker they print.

[windansea]

61. LOL

"verybust" indeed!!

the article was emailed to me by a venezuelan woman and blogger who is indeed very busty...thanks for the laugh!!

[AP]

85. What does she do for a living? Live off the labors of the poor?

[windansea]

89. no..she is a teacher

and she originally supported Chavez..what you don't seem to realize is that a great number of ordinary venezuelans supported Chavez at first...but later saw through his game

"How do we believe that just this once y'all are telling the truth when we've seen 10,000,000 lies before, when your leaderership has systematically lied, lied about Bolivar's teachings, lied about the missing payments to FIEM, lied about the corruption in Plan Bolivar, lied about the sustainability of the exchange rate bands, lied about Oil-to-Cuba, lied about the domestic debt, lied about the CTV election results, lied about the size of the opposition, lied about Montesinos, lied about Ballestas, lied about its border policy, lied about Decree 1011, lied about the process to approve the 49 decree-laws, lied about Plan Avila, lied about the violence on April 11th, lied about the US role on April 12th, lied about the numbers on the street on April 13th, lied about the poverty rate, lied about the Charallave shootings, lied about the Autopista Regional del Centro shootings, lied about the Paro Nacional, lied about Plan Colina, lied about what happened in the old PDVSA, lied about what happens in the new PDVSA, lied about its oil production figures, lied about the pollution on Lake Maracaibo, lied about Intesa, lied about Intevep, lied about Citgo, lied about Ruhr Oel, lied about the Plataforma Deltana, lied about Yucal-Placer, lied about Tomoporo, lied about Free Market Petroleum, lied about the Las Cristinas mine, lied about school-enrollment figures, lied on the future of El Camastron, La Casona and Miraflores, lied about its impact on world oil prices, lied about the firmazo, lied about the reafirmazo, lied about Sumate, lied about the integrity of Cesar Gaviria, lied about the private media, lied about the reconstruction of Vargas State after the mudslides, lied about the links with FARC/ELN, lied about the "millardito", lied about the infiltration of Cubans into the armed forces, lied about the killing of Jovany Sosa and Evangelina Carrizo and Jorge Tortoza and countless others, lied about Venezuela's involvement in the coup against Sanchez de Lozada in Bolivia, lied about the Policia Metropolitana's role in violence in Caracas, lied about racism, lied about the impact of the various "missions", lied about Carrasquero's impartiality, lied about the planillas planas, lied about the independence of the Fiscal, lied about the integrity of the Ombudsman, lied about the autonomy of the courts, lied about its commitment to human rights, lied about Pompeyo Marquez's character, lied, in fact, at just about every turn on just about every significant aspect of policy and politics for over five years?"

do you understand any of this??? probably not... because you are not a venezuelan, and from your postings...you only read pro chavez propaganda...

[AP]

100. She teach in a private school for rich kids? She wants the fascits back

in power?

Why don't you go through each one of those lies and we'll have a debate about it.

Why don't we do that instead of your little propaganda campaign.

I'm going to start a new thread, and you can make your arguments on each one of the issues.

[redqueen]

140. "lied about the US role on April 12th"???!!!

WTH?

How about some evidence for this claim?

[AP]

141. We have a thread dropping like a stone in GD inviting anti-Chavez people

to defend these claims.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1217511

[redqueen]

151. Not surprised it's dropping

Hell-LO?!

How the F$&# can negotiating over a 'fixing' process or whatever the validation is referred to as call into question the FACT that the US fomented a coup there?!

And to top it off, how the F$&# can we defend the recall crap, when we all SAW FOR OURSELVES how easy it is to manufacture consent and install a FAR WORSE leader in CA?! Do we LIKE propoganda now? Do we APPLAUD it's fantastic results?

Boggles the mind, it does.

[windansea]

157. thats way too many subjects for a single thread

and you would have to be a venezuelan to understand it all

I am basically supporting a fair recall vote, as is the Carter center, the UN, the EU etc etc...I think many here don;t even understand this single issue or don't want to let it happen cuz they know Chavez will lose.

here is a short history on the recall...

http://venezuelatoday.net/migueloctavio.html

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

159. Are you venezuelan? Then why bother posting things only THEY would

understand.

[AP]

160. la la la lammeeeee. LAME!

Pick any topic on that list and let's debate it.

And your logic -- that you have to be venezuelan to understand -- means that you shouldn't be posting ANYTHING about this.

[windansea]

176. I live with one

and have been there many times....I have picked a topic...validate the signatures and let venezuelans have a vote as they are entitled too..and elsewhere in this thread I have posted links which will allow you and others to learn why...so far all I get are attacks on me, attacks on my sources, and class warfare...it's a CIA coup etc etc etc...just read some of my links and maybe you will understand more..if you have valid questions instead of rw smears let me know

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

178. So what? We lived with one until not too long ago.

Too bad she doesn't share your or yours opinions on the man. She has explained to me a lot of what's happened there. Funny how she has a different take on things. Does Chavez say or do things that upset her? You're damn right. But she also told me that not only has the "opposition" not presented a better alternative. She also thinks they want to go back to the good old days.

[windansea]

181. yes many people have different opinions

thats why they want to have a recall...a constitutional right to gage a presidents support midway through his term

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

184. I just wanted to make things clear. Since you came in here acting like the

spokesman for Venezuela.

[windansea]

188. I am not the spokesman for Venezuela

I am just presenting the opposition point of view...I am an anonymous poster just like you...I am not defending past CIA coups, the bush administration, past oppression of the poor...I am only defending venezuelans constitutional rights to hold a recall and the validity of the signatures they have produced in accordance with the laws...and attacking Chavez for trying to thwart this thru intimidation and lies....like the obvious one covered in original post

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

190. You forgot to mention:

Questioning people's nationality and ethnicity because you don't like their opinions. Also posting direct emails from the opposition and at the very least giving the appearance of plagiarism to state your points.

[windansea]

194. I didn't post a direct email from anyone

just a link to the Guardian article...and I certainly am not trying to plagarize anyone...I posted an apology for forgetting the link in that post from WSWS...I don't recall questioning anyones nationality or ethnicity...I think I have asked if anyone posting on this subject actually knew any venezuelans like I do and there's nothing wrong with that...as far as calling you a gringo (it was you right?) I am sorry but your spanish had some errors and at the time you and others were calling me all kinds of things.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

195. One of your links somehow pointed to a hotmail message.

As far as Spanish goes I asked to point out the so called errors. You didn't. As far as that goes thinking in three languages all the time and our slang can fuck things up. But the first one to call names here was you. Next time ask don't assume.

I don't plan to dwell on this since I know where I come from and what I'm about. You made it personal and I can play the same game. Some people in the rest of the Americas somehow think they're better than the rest of us. I hope that's not the case with you. Because I can hold my own with any know it alls out there.

[Name removed]

234. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[windansea]

235. LOL

obviously 234 posts later..somebody did...

PS me and my operatives hacked the Guardian website and posted the article in the OP....do a view source on the coding and you'll see what I mean....you might wanna adjust your :tinfoilhat: sounds like it might be a bit tight.

[HawkerHurricane]

3. Not to worry

If he's not dead, he will be.

[mobuto]

5. Not possible

After all, Venezuela is a perfect Bolivarian Democracy and anyone who says otherwise is a paid CIA poster.

[HawkerHurricane]

6. That reminds me, I need to pick up my check...

Thanks!

[hellhathnofury]

35. How many posts until I get on salary?

I'm hard at work.

[AP]

10. mobuto, you've volunteered MANY details about yourself here at DU,

and one of them -- correct me if I'm wrong -- is that you've participated in programs conducted by the CIA and NSA for young people, or something like that, right?

[mobuto]

11. Good memory

Yup. I once participated in a CIA-sponsored program.

[AP]

12. What did they talk to you about?

[Just Me]

13. You just warmed my heart,...

,...after having completely blown a gasket yesterday *LOL*,...and I just don't do that! Whatever frustration level I had reached yesterday, your post helped me to fully recover *smile*!!!

[mobuto]

14. We talked about subverting Democratic websites

and overthrowing lawfully elected governments, then they asked me for my advice on several drug trafficing plans on theirs, and told me about various forms of mind control. When I asked about Area 51, they became defensive and oddly hostile.

Does that answer your question?

On edit: I might as well answer your question seriously, although you hardly deserve it given your juvenile innuendo. I talked to the CIA about - exactly - nothing. I had no conversations with any CIA employees. Maybe they beamed the instructions into my head.

[AP]

15. No, really. What was the presentation about?

Why'd you get selected for it?

How do you feel about it today, in retrospect?

[mobuto]

16. Why?

Why'd you get selected for it?

I have no idea. Ask the CIA.

How do you feel about it today, in retrospect?

I feel that it was the kindest, bravest, warmest most wonderful experience of my life.

[AP]

17. This is an anonymous forum, and you're not under oath, but I ask because

I'm curious.

If you want to be flip about it, that's cool.

But I'm just curious.

[mobuto]

18. Out of curiosity

What do you think? Do you think that I am a CIA agent? Clearly you brought it up for some reason. My guess is that CIA connections are not the first thing trained subversives are told to advertise in spy school.

Of course I could be wrong on that.

[AP]

20. Of course I don't think you're a spy. But I think your empathies seem

to fall on the side of interests to which you've frequently noted your proximity.

I don't mean this as an attack at all.

It's just that you're the unusual DU'er who gives a lot of backstory about yourself, and when that backstory seems to move to the foreground in your posts, it seems like it's worth noting that it's happening.

How many people would make a joke about picking up a check from the CIA who have actually participated in a CIA program?

[Judi Lynn]

23. There are a few posters, but not many

who have laid out a personality profile of themselves in advance of their actual participation, as in describing themselves to others, rather than describing actual shared political interests.

A successful spy would probably be very skilled, wouldn't you think?

[thebigidea]

25. Nobody expects...

thanks for the laugh, which was diabolical indeed.

Still, it all adds such wonderful color to the site!

[Judi Lynn]

27. It's true, nobody DOES expect

Thanks!

[mobuto]

30. There are a few posters, not many

actually just two or three, who take positions never at variance with those of the government of a Caribbean island nation, never straying from threads concerning that nation and its few political allies, posters who use the same rhetorical flourishes of that Island's official propagandists, and who make bizarre claims that even legitimate defenders of that regime are unprepared to back.

Of course they aren't very skilled, but who would expect them to be?

[thebigidea]

31. Man, I'm diggin' these Venezuela threads

we've got

a) Skullduggery from the Keystone Coupsters at CIA/State
b) a shall we say, "colorful" leader with a penchant for calling Bush an Asshole
c) big oil putting big greasy fingers everywhere
d) thinly veiled insinuations a-go-go

It all adds up to what Jack Perkins might have called "Good TV."

Ooo, I think I need to scribble something about it or do a video - "Keystone Coupsters" sounds good enuff for a dumb title.

Speaking of scribbles: to change the subject for a minute... mobuto, what's your take on Greg Palast's reportage?

[ParanoidPat]

33. Yes they do have a ....certain, ....special, ....something......

......I feel like breaking into song! :evilgrin:

Here, :toast: have a beer on me. Ya want some popcorn? :)

[9215]

41. that explains alot. nt

[mobuto]

56. Oh really?

Like what?

[9215]

60. Sorry,

DU rules prevent me from saying it. ;)

[9215]

77. Are we friends now?

hee, hee.

[9215]

57. Now you're getting the idea, but

I wouldn't call it a perfect Bolivarian democracy; there is still too much influence from foreign (US) fascists mucking things up. ;)

[0rganism]

70. That's the difference between Chavez and killers like Duarte and Pinochet

If Duarte or Pinochet were going to make that kind of allegation about a fraudulent petition sig, the person in question would already be desaparacido. Of course, they wouldn't tolerate a recall petition circulating in the first place, so the point is a bit moot; at most, such a petition under their regimes would amount to a short list for the death squads.

[debsianben]

150. Not to mention the regime that

would have resulted if the anti-Chavez coup in 2002 would have been successful.

I mean, do you really believe that any junta resulting from the kind of military coup that Federcameras and the State Department pulled in 2002 would allow recall petitions to be circulated?!?

For that matter, does any one really believe that the regime that the US will install in Haiti to replace the elected government that Bush overthrew will allow recalls?!?

[redqueen]

152. Thanks for pointing out a few clues!

:toast:

Hope someone notices!

[worldgonekrazy]

208. yeah, that and the fact that chavez was ELECTED

shit. it seems like most people think he is some kind of military dictator. well let me jog your memory. he was democratically elected as president because he got the poor peasants out to vote by promising to improve their shitty shitty lives. furthermore, he has made good on that promise.

and yes, i am aware that chavez did TRY to overthrow the gov't back in '91, but perhaps desperate times call for desperate measures? i wouldn't say that to support a military dictator, but i will say that to support a democratically elected president.

[bahrbearian]

4. I sure won't want to be known supporting a President that was

elected with 80% of the Vote, and fight's for the poor and liitle guy.

[Judi Lynn]

7. A fast run to google finds the following description of your source

El Universal, owned by Andrews Mata:

(snip) It is hard to assess the extent of the strike, because the Venezuelan media has largely given up any pretence at objectivity. The daily El Universal, which carries the opposition logo on its masthead, described the gathering at La Campina as "scandalous" and "intimidatory" while reporting the opposition protests in glowing terms.
(snip)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,859046,00.html

[ParanoidPat]

29. JudyLyn, you are a first class DIRT BAG......

.....as in,

Democraticunderground
Internet
Research
Team

Buried
Answer
Guru

And as such I nominate you to the 'Order of the Server' for Googling above and beyond the call of duty! I salute you! :toast: :evilgrin:

Thanks, once again you've made my day!

[Judi Lynn]

36. Cool, ParanaoidPat! Hope I don't get conceited!

It's harder NOT to look stuff up when you see such obvious twisting and bending of the truth going on, isn't it? All that's needed is the time, which can be a really precious commodity, and what I think they count on: that people will simply not have the time to do the necessary work to make it tougher for them.

Thanks a lot. I'll never forget the day I became a DIRTBAG!

[windansea]

38. huh?

this story is from the Guardian....please explain

[9215]

76. Great post!

I was pissed at first when the Venezuelan referendum fascists started all this, but now I think this could work in Hugo's favor as the lies and distortions about what happened are exposed in a rational logical manner.

Excellent digging into El Universal. :hi:

[0007]

93. You are a real sweetheart JudiLyn

Thank you thank you thank you - hotair & stagnated water can't touch you baby!!!

Mr. M. should go back doing his calypso ghost dance.

:yourock:

[Voltaire99]

9. Amusing to see Americans critical of Venezuelan democracy

Does the nation that produced the 2000 election, currently packs the cells of Guantanamo Bay, illegally occupies Iraq and only last week deposed the rightful president of Haiti have anything to say to anyone about the conduct of an open democratic society?

Even less does it have to say to Venezuela after smiling upon the first failed coup and now being found to have bankrolled the recall. The strange thing is how phony US concern about democracy in Venezuela apparently excites and impresses certain people. Do you know why that might be, Windansea?

[JoeKSimmons]

22. You missed quite a few crimes of my country

Starving Cuba, supporting the crimes of the IDF, starving the children of Iraq, ousting the elected leaders of more than Haiti, supported the killing of Nuns in Central America, ignored the black vote in Florida, destroyed the People of the Soviet Union, bombed tens of thousands of innocent Japanese and much more than I care to describe.

We are due quite a bit of karma for those crimes alone.

[newyawker99]

28. Hi JoeKSimmons!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[windansea]

42. thank you for asking

my girlfriend is venezuelan...our friends and family there number in the hundreds...and I have enjoyed the hospitality and beauty of the country many times

perhaps as you sit in your all knowing icy ivory tower in Minnesota you imagine you have a clue...the CURRENT situation in Venezuela has nothing to do with your hatred of Bush, the 2000 election, Guantanamo, or Iraq....past coups or the CIA

Chavez himself supported the constitutional law that allows venezuelans to pass a referendum to hold a recall midway through a presidential term if voters are displeased...3.5 million venezuelans, more than a million by law required, took the time to go to the polls, produced their IDs, signatures, FINGERPRINTS, and did so in the presence of representatives from Chavez, opposition groups, and observers from the Carter Center.

Realizing that massive public support for his recall exists, and no doubt aware that polls show his support as low as 30%, Chavez through his control of the CNE (election commision) has now embarked on a blatant ploy to invalidate the signatures thru technicalities and documented lies (see original post)

These anti-democratic tactics Chavez is using to suppress the rule of law and democratic principles are now being condemed worldwide by the Carter Center, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the United Nations, European Union members, and staunch defenders of civil rights like Barney Frank.

You may think NED funding of opposition groups or CIA operations are controlling the minds of Venezuelans to grab control of their oil...but that would show a supremely myopic USA centric ugly american I know whats best for you worldview...will the chimps $200 million cause you to vote for him? NOT!!! Chavez has control of the government, the oil, the army and police....his power dwarfs the opposition yet they threaten his control with VALID signatures and votes

Guess what...Venezuelans are just as smart as you and are just as capable of deciding about who and how they want to be governed...this is not about you or US politics...support democracy and let the people vote...if Chavez is the true hero of the oppressed and poor as many here contend...he will win easily...90% of venezuela is poor....a confident and true populist would relish a fair vote...which is all I support...Chavez tactics suppressing a fair vote are obvious and expose his true intentions...

anyone with a cogent argument on why this "power to the people" and wildly popular hero fears a fair democratic vote are invited to explain.

[Vladimir]

43. You know perfectly well why

anyone with a cogent argument on why this "power to the people" and wildly popular hero fears a fair democratic vote are invited to explain.

I have answered this point many times and you have never yet come back with a response. When Chavez wins the referendum, the results will be disputed, he will be accused of vote rigging, and it will trigger the perfect precedent to demand international intervention. Chavez is not a fool, and he has learned the lessons of Chile, Nicaragua and elsewhere.

V

[windansea]

45. wrong

no one accuses him of rigging the election he won

the problem with your argument (which is new to me) is that his support is now polling as low as 30%

Chavez knows this....thats why he has been stalling the referendum process for almost a year and now that 3.5 million people (almost a million more than required) have said yes to the recall he is now trying to falsely invalidate signatures that include fingerprints and national ID numbers EVERY ONE OF WHICH WERE WITNESSED BY REPRESENTATIVES OF CHAVEZ AND THE OPPOSITION AND THE CARTER CENTER.

Do you think that staunch democrats like Carter and Frank are condeming Chavez tactics because they are part of a neocon oil grab conspiracy???

Your argument is pure sophistry...Chavez fears a recall for one reason...he knows he will lose...international observers are all over this....if the Carter Center validates the results the world will accept it...the process for the referendum is far more strict than voting here in the USA...signature fingerprints and ID

[Vladimir]

48. The poll numbers you keep quoting

have been debunked quite comfortably in another post, I refer you to the following article:

http://www.narconews.com/Issue27/article594.html

(credit to SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN for original posting of link)

I am not for a moment suggesting there isn't virulen't opposition to Chavez in Venezuela. The ex-ruling class is numerous and has a lot to lose if Chavez stays in power. Of course they are going to scream. Not to mention that they have the media on their side, who Chavez has been fantastically fair to. But they are a minority, who are trying to engineer intervention any way they can because they tried to overthrow him in 2001 without it and failed.

I might just believe your arguments and sources if I wasn't from a country that has undergone a bit of interventionism itself lately. You remember Bosnia and Kosovo? While the media was busy telling you about how everyone down there was fighting the evil Serb war machine, some 250,000 Serbs were cleansed from Croatia in an operation spearheaded by former US army generals (working as paid mercenaries)acting with the Pentagon's blessings. They still live in refugee camps throughout Serbia, and those who have been allowed to return have faced persecution. I also rember my own government propaganda about how Srebrenica was a Western fabrication, and how there were no massacres. No-one in the West acted on principle in the former Yugoslavia, and no-one is acting on principle now.

Chavez is one of the few leaders in the South Americas who isn't afraid to stand up for the interests of the majority of his people. I don't care if he has to play dirty along the way - because his opponents are hardly fighting fair themselves.

V

[windansea]

79. ok forget the polls

President Hugo Chavez Frias won the presidential elections in 1998 with 33% of the vote. In the 2000 elections, he won with 32% of the registered vote. The percentage of signatures collected to revoke him is roughly the same. When it comes down to measuring the President’s current popularity, polls show differing numbers. But what matters is that according to the Constitution, only 20% of the registered voters is needed to trigger a recall referendum: that is exactly what has been achieved to date with the signatures collected, and what the Government pretends to dissolve through the CNE.

What we want is to clarify any doubts through the casting of votes. We want to see through an electoral process how many people support Chavez today and how many want him to go, after five years of bad governance. If Chavez Frias does in fact have 40% of popular support, there are even more reasons for President Chavez to count his popularity through real votes as stated in the Constitution. That would allow him to show the Washington Post and the rest of the world that the opposition is wrong. Unfortunately, that is not happening.

[AP]

86. Venezuela is getting exactly what it needs with Chavez:break from fascists

and a rejection of neoliberalism.

You know, if you couldn't do that democratically during the transition years, it'd still be the right thing to do.

I suspect the bad guys will win this battle, because they always do. That's what happens when you have all the money in the world, greedy people who want more, and a willingness to shoot people in the head from rooftops to get more money.

However, I'll be rooting for Chavez to win the battles and the war.

[windansea]

92. the end justifies the means?

Many left-wing nationalists in Venezuela, and in Latin America generally, have hailed the ascendancy of Chavez as a revolutionary development. Eager leftist journalists from Buenos Aires, Mexico City and elsewhere have breathlessly reported their pilgrimages to Miraflores, the presidential palace in Caracas, for personal interviews with the paratrooper president.

These people represent a sociopolitical layer which is incapable of either forgetting or learning anything. The same tendencies hailed the "anti-imperialist" credentials of the likes of Gen. J.J. Torres in Bolivia, the "humanist revolution" of Velasco Alvarado in Peru, Panamanian General Omar Torrijos's "revolution for the dispossessed" and the "revolutionary nationalist" orientation of General Rodriguez Lara in Ecuador. Like Chavez, many of these military rulers adopted radical reformist rhetoric and evinced a friendly attitude toward Cuba.

In each case, however, these figures merely paved the way for more reactionary regimes, often military dictatorships, which quickly took away whatever meager reforms had been implemented and waged a merciless assault on the political rights and social conditions of the working masses of these countries.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

96. Are we plagiarizing now?

1999, then you talk to others about old ass articles. Tsk, tsk,tsk. Here I'll finish your paragraph for you:


In each case, however, these figures merely paved the way for more reactionary regimes, often military dictatorships, which quickly took away whatever meager reforms had been implemented and waged a merciless assault on the political rights and social conditions of the working masses of these countries. The support of petty-bourgeois leftists for the "revolutionary" officers served only to disorient the working class and leave it politically disarmed as the general staffs in these countries dispensed with nationalist-reformist pretenses and turned sharply to the right.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/sep1999/vene-s10_prn.shtml

[AP]

113. windansea, why did you pretend that you wrote that?

why no citation?

[Judi Lynn]

114. Scary! n/t

[windansea]

133. sorry bout that

I think it was my last post yesterday and just forgot to post the link...no ulterior motive here for all :tinfoilhat: conspiracy theorists...but have fun with it!!

I posted it to show you that even the socialists are not to impressed with Chavez...and the same article is anti oligarchs as well

[AP]

142. Have you seen this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1217511

You had no quotes on that post, by the way, and the part you chose didn't prove what you claim. And, in fact, that article portrays Chavez as good for business, which sort of undermines your claims about him.

It's incredibly confusing that you posted that.

I know a lot of the neoliberals are reformed marxists. Are you a reformed marxist?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

148. It would be more believable if you hadn't cut that last paragraph the way

you did. :spank:

[windansea]

153. whatever

the truth is out..socialists don't like Chavez either...of course they don't like oligarchs and capitalists...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

156. You may be right in everything you have posted. Who knows, right.

But why post emails fed to you by the opposition? As someone else pointed out earlier. Why post someone else's work, with only one paragraph that was conveniently edited. You also laughed at another person here for using "old" sources. Then you go back to 1999? Please!

[windansea]

187. I have friends in the opposition

I told them that many on this forum are not believing my sources and saying they are all RW...which is a joke as I have posted stuff from Carter Center, AI, HRW, Barney Frank etc...anyway one of my blogger friends sent me the Guardian article cited in the original post..and of course the denials and smears continue!!

I posted the WSWS article just to show another left wing source critical of Chavez...of course they are also critical of the opposition...

99% of my posts in this matter are from current articles

[Judi Lynn]

189. >>> "I have friends in the opposition" <<<

Oh, REALLY?

We never would have guessed.

Didn't you read the information concerning Jimmy Carter's actual friendship with Gustavo Cisneros, whom, as everyone knows who has been reading on the COUP, is deeply involved in the coup, and also is a close friend of George H. W. Bush, with whom he goes hunting.

We all are well aware of his extensive ownership of Venezuelan right-wing media.

We read that Jimmy Carter attended the wedding of Cisneros' daughter.
It's in here someplace:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=405838#407261

Did you not read the link to the open letter to George Bush signed by Barney Frank?

It was posted right in front of your eyes:

159. Since you're deeply respectful of Barney Frank's opinion of Vene. matters


Maybe you'll be interested in reading an open letter he has signed:


Open Letter to Bush on Venezuela from U.S. Congress members - and You
Add your signature in favor of Authentic Democracy


By U.S. Reps Kucinich, Conyers, Serrano, Frank...
U.S. Congress and Civil Society
December 13, 2002

Hon. George W. Bush
President
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC, 20500

Dear President George W. Bush,

Given the high level of political tension in Venezuela, and recognizing that part of the leadership of the opposition is determined to depose President Hugo Chávez by any means, we, the undersigned organizations and persons, urge you to declare unequivocally that the government of the United States is opposed to any unconstitutional or coup attempt against the democratically elected government of Venezuela. Also, the White House should affirm that the United States will not recognize diplomatic relations with a government installed by means of a coup.

We believe that the silence of the White House after the April 11th coup d’etat, which the Administration appeared to congratulate, is generally seen as a support for a coup. We are concerned by the fact that this perception diminishes the incentives for the opposition and the Chávez government to seek dialogue or a peaceful solution to the current crisis.

We are also concerned that, while the top officials of the White House have remained silent, Otto Reich, the Special Envoy for the Western Hemisphere of the State Department, recently denounced the Venezuelan government, saying that, “the existence of elections is not enough to say that a country is democratic.” This is a strange departure from diplomatic protocol, and in the light of what happened during the April coup, it has risen the level of suspicion that Venezuelan officials have about Washington’s motives.

The role of the United States government in the April 11th coup is not clear. We know that some United States officials met with the coup leaders in the months before the coup. Groups involved with the coup also received financing from the United States government. At the same time, the Bush Administration openly expressed its hostility toward the government of President Chávez. According to the office of the Inspector General of the State Department, one of the reasons for this friction was “the participation (of President Chávez) in the affairs of the Venezuelan oil company and the impact this could have on the price of oil.”

Also, the Office of the Inspector General of the State Department, after investigating the role of U.S. officials before and after the April coup, concluded that U.S. warnings against the coup “were perhaps not critical enough. Among these warnings, few went beyond the formulation of common and ritualistic opposition to ‘anti-democratic or unconstitutional change.’ Any warning of non-recognition of a coup installed government, economic sanctions or other punitive and corrective actions were few and far between. Retrospectively, this has also been recognized and lamented by some high United States officials.”

The Inspector General’s report also noted that “the fact of having met frequently with those interested in toppling the Chávez government could have been seen as United States backing for their efforts, notwithstanding our ritualistic denunciation of anti-democratic and unconstitutional measures.”

Given those circumstances, the current silence by the White House about its opposition to a coup d’etat or other unconstitutional defeat of a democratically elected government in Venezuela is seen throughout Venezuela and elsewhere as support for those illegal actions. The opposition leaders, determined to defeat a government, have few incentives to seek a peaceful solution via dialogue if they believe that the United States government would support whatever happens. The government of the United States must demonstrate its current and active support for democratically elected governments. Only a strong statement of condemnation by the White House explaining that the U.S. is opposed to violent or unconstitutional actions, that it will not tolerate a coup government and that it will impose sanctions on any government installed by coup measures, would send the correct and democratic message to the Venezuelan political actors and the other Latin American governments.

Therefore, we urge the White House to clarify its position, before Venezuela goes to Civil War.

Sincerely,

U.S. Rep. Dennis J. Kucinich, Ohio

U.S. Rep. John Conyers, Jr., Michigan

U.S. Rep. José E. Serrano, New York

U.S. Rep. Barney Frank, Massachusetts

U.S. Rep. Major R. Owens, New York

Al Giordano, journalist, América
http://www.narconews.com/Issue26/article562.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=405838#407261

[windansea]

202. of course I read it

and agree....but the quotes I produced from Barney Frank are not from 2002...they are from last week...2004..and concern the PRESENT state of affairs in regard to the recall.

I condemn the coup in 2002, so does Frank

I support the recall and validity of the signatures, so does Frank

Your attempt to smear Carter and imply the Carter Center report is compromised because Carter knows a Venezuelan billionaire is rediculous...the Carter Center report is backed and supported by the UN, the EU, many international rights groups...to think that all these people and orgs are biased in against Chavez is pathetic..

even his friends like Lula in Brazil are loosing pacience with his tactics.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

192. How about that jewel you posted the other day

talking about (I'm paraphrasing here). The Chavez movement is akin to other such movements in the past. Like Stalinism, Maoism, and a bunch of other bullshit isms. Do you agree with that? Since you posted it. I'm sure you agree. Also a few people have pointed out and rightly so. Your use of some RW sources, not all but some nonetheless.

[windansea]

196. this jewel??

Venezuela: Communiqué of the ISHR and the Andrei Sajarov Foundation
In the face of the recent wave of crime against the Venezuelan civilian population, which is claiming respect for democracy and its institutions, perpetrated by the new candidate for totalitarian strongman, Hugo Chávez, our organizations of Human Rights express their firm condemnation and make a public call to the international public opinion so that it condemns in categorical fashion the barbarism which, under the direct influence of the Stalinists directives captained by Fidel Castro from Havana, threatens to subject the whole of Venezuelan society to debacle and tyrannical submission.

The subterfuges and false arguments that the ‘Chavismo’ is employing in Venezuela are the same that have been used by other despots that ended up in the extermination of millions of human beings with the sole purpose of perpetuating themselves in power and of creating dynasties of executioners such as Adolph Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro.

A new wave of fascist and Stalinist national socialism is going round Latin America, spearheaded by Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro, in quite the same way it went around Europe for decades last century. Those who fight for the integral respect for human rights, anywhere in the planet, can not remain impassive facing this new cycle which can returns us to medieval servility.

Vitautas Landsbergis, President of IGFM, ex President of Lithuania.

Alexander Soljenitzyn, ex prisoner of the Gulag y Nobel Prize in Literature

Lech Walesa, ex president of Poland

Janos Kiss, ex President of the Hungarian Parliament

Václav Havel, ex President of the Check Republic

Serguei Agrusow, Founder of IGFM, Germany

Elena Bonner, President of the Andrei Sajarov Foundation.

Elie Wiezel, Nobel Peace Prize

Haydée Marín, President of the Panamerican Comitte of IGFM

Miroslav Kusy, Memmber of the Parlamient of the Republic of Slovakia

Anton Manolescu, President of the Human Rights Comisión of the Romanian Parliament

Sergel Grigorianc, Helsinki Group of Moscow

Adam Michnik, Polish Intellectual and Reporter.

Ricardo Bofill, President of the Committee for Human Rights of Cuba.

Lee Van Thau, Executive Director of the Human Rights Coordinator of Viet Nam.

Sergej Kovaljov, Russian Movement for Human Rights.

http://www.ishr.org/index.html

The statement above was produced by the International Society of Human Rights, my original cite was from the vcrisis website and was slammed for being "rightwing" even though the letter was produced by the Human Rights group.

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403051429

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

197. Yeah! That's the one.

It has to be the stupidest sheet I've read in a while. It's fine not to like the man's policies or even the man himself. To put him or even Fidel Castro in the same category with this bunch is ridiculous. Thanks for the laugh again though.

[windansea]

198. don't laugh at me

look at the people who signed it

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

199. I wasn't laughing at you. As far as I'm concerned

Jesus H Mohammad could have signed it. It's still way over the top. I'm sure there are plenty of things to criticize about this man without using all this hyperbole.

[dax]

228. That is the biggest problem with your posts-you just say "believe them

When you make an arguement, it does not constitute substantiation to say I vouch for this person and they said blah so you can believe them-that just doesnot prove anything. You have never answered how CHavez is a "dictator" when he allows CRIMINAL elements who plotted an illegal coup to continue to organize and put out propaganda-in the US the opposition goons would be at GITMO without a lawyer not whining about how soon they get to have their referendum.

[AP]

250. There was another post with 60 claims about Chavez which the neoliberals

here were invited to debate.

They didn't try to argue a single one.

[Judi Lynn]

252. And here it is, AP!

I just happen to have the link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1217511#1223047

[AP]

262. That post isn't getting much attention, is it?

[Vladimir]

222. ROTFL

medieval servility? The irony is almost too much to bear, considering Iraq and Afganistan...

Castro killing millions? Given Cuba's population that would be hard if he was trying!

I note again that fascism and Stalinism (with the subtext being communism) are being equated. The right wing lie perpatuates itself...

I repeat: ROTFLMAO. If Chavez was what they are claiming he is, the opposition would have been executed after 2001.

V

[OilemFirchen]

226. How odd...

The only sites where one can read this communiqué are vcrisis.com and the "opposition's" Salon blog:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=Communiqu%E9+of+the+ISHR+and+the+Andrei+Sajarov+Foundation

Nothing at ishr.org (International Society for Human Rights), the purported authors, nor at ishr.ch (International Service for Human Rights), the more likely source (snark!)

Me smells fish.

[windansea]

229. here is their contact data

International Society for Human Rights
International Secretariat
Borsigalle 9
D-60388 Frankfurt/M., Germany
phone: ++49 (0)69 420 108 36, fax: ++49(0)69 420 108 29
e-mail: [e-mail]

send them an email and see if you catch a fish (snark!!)

[OilemFirchen]

288. International Society for Human Rights

Has no similar communique's on their website, while the Interational Service for Human Rights does. Lots and lots and lots of 'em. Except, of course, this one. Which only appears on the web from right-wing sources.

It's a fabrication. Something that the right does with amazing impunity.

[AP]

289. Good catch. Nice work. I wish some people would stop marching around

DU in khakis and pith helmets.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

292. Soooo, are you saying this is bullshit? It sure smells like it.

[OilemFirchen]

296. That's what I'm saying

And the OP should avail himself of the opportunity to prove me wrong. I have no problem entertaining that possibility, but it ain't gonna happen.

Since yesterday, a third site is promoting this "communique'":
http://www.eluniversal.com/2004/03/08/08A438089.shtml which, I believe is one of Venezuela's mainstream pubs.

They assert that "Last weekend, the International Society for Human Rights and the Andrei Sajarov Foundation, two prominent European NGOs, issued a communiqué criticizing the government of President Hugo Chávez." and provide a link which (surprise!) requires a login. Their article is dated March 8, so "last weekend" probably means February 28-29 - certainly enough time for whichever org is responsible to post this document on their site.

Assuming that both ISHR's are woefully inept, I'd, nonetheless, presume that an urgent appeal about a volatile, current crisis, signed by so many luminaries would be so newsworthy that someone other than fellow goosesteppers would have picked it up by now. Reuters, the AP... hell, even the Moonie Times seems to have missed it. Faux News hasn't uttered a peep. Rusty seems curiously silent. NewsMaxx has gone braindead (/redundancy). Nothing, nada, zilch.

If it ain't there, it don't exist. It's a fraud.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

297. No matter how many times people get caught

"con las manos en la masa", they'll persist on pushing this trash.

[Judi Lynn]

294. Wow! Admirable skill at bagging this. Very, very sneaky stuff, for sure.

They are nothing, if not determined.

[windansea]

299. so I guess the ISHR statement would ruin

everyone's day if it's real??

:)

[OilemFirchen]

300. Wouldn't ruin MY day.

I have no problem being proven wrong.

If you've got it, flaunt it.

[windansea]

303. you'll be the first to know

;)

[OilemFirchen]

302. Are you Satan's Poop?

Just to make a stinky mess even more putrid, here, as I suspected, is another clue that your "sources" have a vivid imagination. From the Salon blog:

ISHR and the Sajarov Foundation Communique
Last night, I translated part of the Communique by the International Society for Human Rights and the Sajarov Foundation. It was so trong that I only put part of it. Today, I called Germany and verified the origin of the text and its authors. here is the complete text and its writers:

Communiqué of the International Society for Human Rights and the Andrei Sakharov Foundation

If your "sources" can't tell the difference between a Cuba-hater and a dead Soviet physicist, how do we even know that they can find Venezuala on a globe?

[windansea]

304. umm..... he's venezuelan

I think he just spelled it phonetically

[OilemFirchen]

305. Just yanking yer chain... a little bit.

But let's face it... everything about this so-called "communique'" is hinky. Yer Satanic Poopster sez he translated the missive, and yet he intermingles the Spanish and English transliterations of Sakharov's name in his own post. FTR, I believe I've found the communique' from ISHR on Venezula and it's completely different than the one you and your confederates posted. Notably, it fails to contain any of the silly, incendiary language found in yours. And, perhaps more notably, it's not a "joint" communication with the Sajarov/Sakharov Foundation - nor does it include any signatories from said group.

You've been had. The Saj/kharov Foundation is an anti-Castro group with an agenda not shared by the ISHR. At best, they "embellished" (fabricated) the communique'. At worst, your buddy the devil's dingleberry made it up himself. In any case it's a fraud. A fabrication. A lie.

Feel free to demonstrate otherwise.


Edited for speelink.

[windansea]

308. hmmm....got link?

to what you found?

I sent an email to the satanic poopster (LOL) asking about it...will let you know what he sez

[windansea]

316. the poopster confirms it's real

still waiting for ISHR confirmation.

[AP]

97. That could be the motto for the opposition. How did they justify shooting

pro-Chavez, anti-coup protesters in the head?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

164. "paved the way for"?

or were overthrown by? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Omar Torrijos die in a helicopter or plane crash to be replaced by ex-CIA thug Manuel Noriega?

I'm not familiar with the other cases.

[Vladimir]

128. No, what your side wants

is to get rid of Chavez - by any means necessary. Don't pretend its interested in democracy, and don't pretend Chavez hasn't been generous. In any other country, all those implicated in the coup would now be behind bars, their parties banned and the media under state control - not free to plot against the government.

Chavez's biggest mistake throughout has been his stubborn desire to fight on the enemy's terms.

V

[windansea]

135. not me

just want a fair recall vote..if Chavez wins.... no problem

[redqueen]

144. Just like Arnold's supporters, right?

A fair recall vote, in a Pravda-like media environment?

Impossible.

[windansea]

149. excuses excuses

venezuelans have a contitutional right to hold a recall...(Chavez supported this law) just like californians did...and trying to link it with Arnold just shows your desperation

[redqueen]

154. It's not desperation, though

It's just an analogy. Do you think the recall of Davis and installation of Arnold was fair and good for the state?

That's pretty much the same as what you're backing here, after all.

[windansea]

191. ok

I believe in laws and democracy...the california recall was fair because there is a law in our constitution allowing a recall if certain conditions are met...the conditions were met and an overwhelming majority of voters rejected Davis and voted for Arnold

whether that is good for california I don't know..but currently a majority of californians seem to think so as his numbers are pretty high

but again...what happened in california has no relevance to venezuelans..it's their country and their laws which govern their right to have a recall...they have followed the law and produced more than enough valid signatures...so the only fair course of action is to let them have their recall...if you support laws and democracy

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

193. But doesn't the use of a biased media in both cases subverts that process

which you claim to stand up for.

[windansea]

203. does a biased media here in US control you?

me neither...don't think you are so much smarter than venezuelans

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

205. Reaaaally? It seems to control the majority of the population here.

Don't think Venezuelans are so much smarter than Californians or people in the US in general. People believe what they are told and see on TV. I used to. So do many others that are not necessarily stupid or anything like that. What are you saying?

When you have assholes on TV claiming to be experts. Questioning the president's sanity and saying that he has some sexual infatuation with Fidel Castro, with no counterpoint. What do you think the people are gonna do?

[AP]

207. I think the media is largely to blame for the current state of things ...

...in the US.

Search the archives for my posts about local news coverage of the recall election in CA. With the dems arguing that prop 13 needed to be reformed and arguing for more progressive taxation, it was no surprise.

Also, spend some time in the MWO archives. Review the media coverage during eleciton 2000. Remember how they called the election for Bush to create the mood that he'd won even though they knew exit polls were telling them something else? And that was only one small part of it.

I appreciate that you aren't on the side of of the liberals on these issues, but you can't deny that the corporatocracy plays favorites and has an agenda.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

162. I remember when the Sandinistas of Nicaragua

won their first election with 69% of the vote, only a couple of years after their revolution, and the Reagan administration cited it as "proof" that the election was rigged.

[JoeKSimmons]

19. Chavez was elected democratically

It's going to take more than a few hundred middle-class disgruntled people that don't want their tax bracket raised to defeat him.

[Judi Lynn]

21. He surely was.

The corrupt elitists are traumatized thinking they may just have to democratize the country after all.

Welcome to D.U.! Great to hear your voice. :hi:

[JoeKSimmons]

24. Thanks and I'm fed up with the American imperialism against democracy

We have enough land here to exploit without taking our henchmen to other nations. That is all.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

26. Well stick around. It's only going to get "better".

What's up bro? :toast:

[JoeKSimmons]

32. My blood pressure is what's up

I have had enough of the coups in my name and will not take it much longer. Castro, Chavez, Aristide and many others deserve better than what they have received from America's leaders.

I'm hoping these issues hit the streets on 3/20 along with the anti-war message. I'll be singing my tune in Burlington on the 20th!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

34. You're godamn right about that. What can I say that U already haven't?

[Vladimir]

39. You

knowsit.com

Welcome to DU my man! :hi:

V

[Zhade]

101. Yeah - it'll take help from disinformation agents.

Like the ones who post opposition-sourced propaganda here.

[Vladimir]

40. Wow! Third world politician makes mistake!

Perfection not achieved! Hang those commie bastards!

Read my lips: Death to fascism! Freedom to the people! Viva Chavez!

V

[Judi Lynn]

44. You're just not going to get real Democrats to support

elitist right-wingers in Venezuela who expect to maintain the corrupt lockout of the 80% poor in the country.

We all know what we think, we all know what's going on in Venezuela.

You WON'T FIND ANY CONVERTS TO THE VENEZUELAN RIGHT-WING HERE. PERIOD.

[windansea]

46. thats funny

do the 80% poor get to vote....yep...they are the ones that supposedly support Chavez and his supposed 80% approval ratings

why is Chavez and his supporters afraid of a vote now??


maybe because his approval has dipped to 30%???


you seem to think it's only a small percentage of RW oligarchs that oppose Chavez


why do you fear a fair vote??

PS still waiting for your response on why you posted that this Guardian article is a RW source????

PS You are deluded if you think you speak for the majority of democrats....your use of "WE" sounds imperialistic

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

49. What on earth are you saying?

Of COURSE I didn't say the Guardian is a right-wing source.

You've got to stop trying to tie up everyone's time pointlessly. If you had taken the time to READ the post, you would have seen the quote CAME FROM THE GUARDIAN and it said this:

(snip) It is hard to assess the extent of the strike, because the Venezuelan media has largely given up any pretence at objectivity. The daily El Universal, which carries the opposition logo on its masthead, described the gathering at La Campina as "scandalous" and "intimidatory" while reporting the opposition protests in glowing terms.
(snip)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,859046,00.html

If you're not even reading the posts, please don't get in the road trying to call people out when you're clearly confused.

Take time to read and comprehend, THEN post.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

51. Isn't THAT the truth?

Right-wing versions of reality simply don't interest most people. Time consuming, and, of course, false!

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[9215]

53. fair vote????

What are you talking about???
The goddamn CIA inserts itself into the situation determined to overthrow Chavez, after failing in a coup. How can any actions by the pro-fascists be considered fair? The US needs to get its hands off Venezuela and let the people determine their own destiny.

Now we are to believe that a referendum has legitimacy after the Bush's have been identified repeatedly as aligning with the Chavez opposition. This is nothing more than a minority of elites who want to go back to the way things were where injustice and poverty plagued a country without hope.

They have reported, I repeat "reported", one error in the voting calculation and that is used to justify accusations against Chavez. Compare this to the lack of Right-Wing concern for the errors in Florida were numerous suspicious mistakes occurred and the whole voting system was turned on its ear and you have to question the sincerity of the anti-Chavista supporters in the US. To call this specious would be an understatement.

The only principle panning out here if the anti-Chavistas have their was is Might makes Right one.

One may try to argue the letter of the law here but the bottom line is that if something is not just it is not law!!

[AP]

55. In America we pretty much agree we're not going to have fair elections

until we get the money out of politics.

Well, Venezuela's problem isn't just that there's money in politics. It's that there's the CIA, and murderers, and fascits in politics, and they're all fighting for the other team.

[windansea]

74. "This is nothing more than a minority of elites "

yes...3.5 million elites signed the referendum and are rioting in the streets

if they are such a small minority..why does Chavez fear a recall vote??

his government controls the voting apparatus and the Carter Center, the UN, and the EU support and will affirm a fair vote.

Florida 2000 has nothing to do with venezuelan voters and the validity of their signatures.

as far as your statement that it's only one error...Chavez is trying to throw out over a million signatures do to technicalities, the use of such tactics is now being condemned by the UN, EU, Carter Center, and Barney Frank.

[0007]

95. Get real!!

[Judi Lynn]

58. Venezuela's Electoral Council and Opposition Continue Negotiations over “R

Venezuela's Electoral Council and Opposition Continue Negotiations over “Repair” Process

Tuesday, Mar 09, 2004

By: Gregory Wilpert

Caracas, March 9, 2004 (Venezuelanalysis.com).- One week after National Electoral Council (CNE) president Francisco Carrasquero announced the results of the signature verification process, the CNE and the opposition are engaged in full-time negotiations to see if the recall referendum process against President Chavez can proceed.

Currently the decision on the referendum is on hold because, according to the CNE, the opposition has submitted only 1.8 million valid signatures, out of the 2.4 million needed. 1.1 million additional signatures are under what the CNE calls “observation.” The opposition and the CNE are now negotiating the exact conditions under which the signatures under observation might be validated.

The rules that regulate recall referenda stipulate that there can be five days of “repairs” during which citizens may have their names withdrawn from the petition if they say that they actually did not sign or, in the case of signatures invalidated due to an error on the form, for people to validate that they actually did sign. Originally the CNE said there would be 600 verification or repair centers, but an outcry from the opposition that this would not be enough, raised the number to 2,700. Although an official announcement has not yet been made, a preliminary agreement seems to have been reached, which would extend the repair process, as a concession to opposition demands, to five days at the end of March. Previously a two or three day repair process had been under discussion.

The opposition appears to be very divided, as some opposition leaders, particularly from the parties Primero Justicia (Justice First), Alianza Bravo Pueblo (Brave People’s Alliance), Proyecto Venezuela, and MAS (Movement towards Socialism) have rejected negotiating with the CNE, on the grounds that the CNE should validate all of the signatures that are under observation and proceed with the recall referendum. Other party leaders, however, have been engaged in intense discussions with the CNE for the past week, to see if more favorable conditions for the repair process can be agreed to.
(snip/...)

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1220

[windansea]

62. posting Chavez propaganda sources again

tailor made for useful idiots in the USA

[Bridget Burke]

63. Thank you for calling most of us idiots.

It makes it very easy to understand where you're coming from.

[9215]

64. Suggestion:

Critique the substance of the piece.

[windansea]

65. LOL

why bother...it's government propaganda...have you seen any substantive replies to the piece cited in the original post from the Guardian???

no??...neither

[Judi Lynn]

66. Once again, your powers of perception have FAILED you

This is the third time we'll be referring to this article, which I LOCATED to inform you about the credibility of "El Universal" in our eyes. Once more, here's the post, maybe you'll get it THIS time. Please take time to understand it:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JudiLyn (1000+ posts) Tue Mar-09-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #46

49. What on earth are you saying?


Of COURSE I didn't say the Guardian is a right-wing source.

You've got to stop trying to tie up everyone's time pointlessly. If you had taken the time to READ the post, you would have seen the quote CAME FROM THE GUARDIAN and it said this:

(snip) It is hard to assess the extent of the strike, because the Venezuelan media has largely given up any pretence at objectivity. The daily El Universal, which carries the opposition logo on its masthead, described the gathering at La Campina as "scandalous" and "intimidatory" while reporting the opposition protests in glowing terms.
(snip)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,859046,00.html


If you're not even reading the posts, please don't get in the road trying to call people out when you're clearly confused.

Take time to read and comprehend, THEN post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I REPEAT, READ THE DAMNED POST. The Guardian article is NOT complimentary to your anti-Chavez position and your political allies.

[windansea]

68. heh he..

you are posting a Guardian article from 2002 to counter the one I posted from 2004...LOL!!

My article from the Guardian is definitely not complimentary to Chavez...as it describes him lying about the validity of a signature and describing the alive male signer as a "dead woman" It doesn't matter where the quote came from...as a search of the database proved that Emiliano Chavez does is exist...and is a man.

snip

``I'm sure Emiliano Chavez doesn't exist,'' the president said, holding up a copy of the petition form. He pointed to an identification number accompanying the signature - No. 2,550,083 - saying it belonged to a dead woman.

In local interviews, Chavez Rosales insisted the number is his. A search of the country' voter database turned up Chavez Rosales' name and the same number.

There was no immediate comment from the government. The form was one of several Chavez offered as evidence of fraud. Others, he said, bore the names of foreigners and minors.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3837155,00.html

[Judi Lynn]

87. Sorry I don't have any time to shop for links right now

as I stopped in to see how you're coming on this thread, but I will try to get back late tonight, and see what can be accomplished, I'm hoping.

I did want to leave you with an interesting GUARDIAN article, as it appears you put a lot of stock in what the GUARDIAN writes:

Chavez film puts staff at risk, says Amnesty

Recriminations after documentary on Venezuelan coup attempt is dropped from a Vancouver festival

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Saturday November 22, 2003
The Guardian

An award-winnning documentary about the coup last year that briefly ousted the Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, has become the subject of a bitter dispute. Last week, it was withdrawn from an Amnesty International (AI) film festival because Amnesty staff in Caracas said they feared for their safety if it were shown.

The film, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, was made by two Irish film makers, Kim Bartley and Donnacha O'Briain. They were preparing a documentary about Mr Chavez, with his cooperation, before the coup and were inside the presidential palace in April 2002 when the events unfolded.
(snip)

The film portrays Mr Chavez in a sympathetic light. It was shown on the public television channel in Venezuela earlier this year. The private television channels are all opposed to Mr Chavez.

Last week, the film was due to be shown at the AI film festival in Vancouver. The organising committee came under pressure from Chavez opponents in Venezuela and eventually decided not to show it.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1090788,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's really too bad that the threat of the looneytunes right-wing losers in Venezuela was so palpable Amnesty International decided to scuttle their highly estemed values in favor of personal safety.

Using violence, the threat of violence to stiffle the flow of information is NOT particularly democratic, is it? OF course no one has ever connected true democratic values with the right-wing racists who constitute the Venezuelan "opposition."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Venezuelans learn the write stuff

Grace Livingstone in Caracas
Sunday December 14, 2003
The Observer

Her hair is tied in a long black ponytail and she has a tired, lined brown face. Luiza has 13 children. Now she walks, arms outstretched, across the stage towards President Hugo Chávez.
He opens his arms to her and she buries her head in his chest. The crowd whoops. The emotional embrace was shown live on all Venezuelan TV channels as 'Patriot' Luiza received a certificate for completing a three-month reading and writing course. She is no longer illiterate.

More than a million people have enrolled in Mission Robinson, a literacy campaign launched by Chávez's left-wing government. It is tinged with revolutionary evangelism. Tens of thousands of 'missionaries' have been recruited to teach the 'patriots' who enrol.

Soldiers - the 'Army of Light' - have distributed 80,000 TVs and video recorders to makeshift classrooms across the country, from city shanty towns to remote Indian villages.

'Chávez uses popular language with a certain religiosity. He uses the symbols of the people and he taps into their hopes and beliefs. He makes direct contact with the popular classes, something his opponents have failed to do,' says Oscar Schémel of polling firm Hinterlaces.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1106757,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Venezuela's slum army takes over

In the crowded barrios, the poor who helped Chávez back to power are seizing control of their own lives

Reed Lindsay in Caracas
Sunday August 10, 2003
The Observer

The economy is in a shambles, the country is torn by social strife. The government is paralysed by factional conflicts, and the virulent media denounce a new public scandal nearly every day.
But in the sprawling hillside slums of Caracas, there is optimism. A startling buzz of activity from the very bottom of society's ladder is beginning to affect an embattled Venezuela. Since weathering a coup in April 2002 and a debilitating strike early this year, President Hugo Chávez has pushed through measures aimed at promoting civic participation among the poor.

And the result may well prove to be the turning point of Venezuela's fortunes.

In the teeming barrios of the capital, a quiet revolution is under way. Meeting in dilapidated school houses and potholed alleyways, Venezuelans have formed neighbourhood groups to fix deficient water supply systems, to organise volunteer efforts at local schools and to launch recycling campaigns.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1015896,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jeez, I've got to run, and I haven't even had time to locate any of the fine GUARDIAN Greg Palast articles on the opposition, the violent threat they pose to President Hugo Chavez, or their seething contempt and hatred for the people of color who constitute the great majority of Venezuela's population.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Whoops. I actually DO have a GUARDIAN Greg Palast article I can contribute:

Don't believe everything you read in the papers about Venezuela

Guardian UK

Wednesday April 17, 2002

by Greg Palast
On Friday, Hugo Chavez, the unpopular, dictatorial potentate of Venezuela, resigned. When confronted over his ordering the shooting of antigovernment protestors, he turned over the presidency to progressive, democratic forces, namely, the military and the chief of Venezuela's business council.

Two things about the story caught my eye: First, every one of these factoids is dead wrong. And second, newspapers throughout the ruling hemisphere, from the New York Times to the Independent to (wince) the Guardian, used almost identical words - "dictatorial", "unpopular", "resignation" - in their reports.

Let's begin with the faux "resignation" that allowed the Bush and Blair governments to fall over their own feet rushing towards recognition of the coup leaders. I had seen no statement of this alleged resignation, nor heard it, nor received any reliable witness report of it. I was fascinated. In January, I had broadcast on US radio that Chavez would face a coup by the end of April. But resign? That was not the Chavez style.

I demanded answers from the Venezuelan embassy in London, and from there, at 2am on Saturday morning, I reached Miguel Madriz Bustamante, a cabinet member who had spoken with Chavez by phone after the president's kidnapping by armed rebels. Chavez, he said, went along with his "arrest" to avoid bloodshed, but added: "I am still president."
(snip/...)

http://www.arena.org.nz/vencred.htm

[9215]

69. Sure I did, Judilynn's reply was interesting.

But even if you disagree how does that let you off the hook here?

[windansea]

71. see post 67 n/t

[windansea]

67. PS

the piece contains this bald faced lie

"Just as with the presidential recall referendum, up to one third of the petition signatures are under observation, due to their being of the same handwriting."

The signatures are not of the same handwriting...and they are each accompanied by fingerprints...and each persons national ID number was recorded...what happened is that the poll workers helped some citizens fill out their name address etc...this was done in front of Chavez witnesses, opposition witnesses, and observers from the Carter Center.

here is the Carter Center report, which affirms what I am saying.

http://www.jimmycarter.org/viewdoc.asp?docID=1631&submenu=news

Chavez is trying to subvert the rights of venezuelans because he knows he will lose a recall vote.

[9215]

73. Well, you sure could have been more

helpful in the Carter Center source. But that's Ok I think I got the pertinent paragraph without your help.

Those citizens who are erroneously or fraudulently included on the list (planillas) should be given the opportunity to remove their names during the appeals and correction period. In addition, the signatures themselves that appear to have a similar handwriting, which have also been found, should be carefully reviewed in order to reject those that are not genuine.


How do you justify your claim they: "are not of the same handwriting"? :eyes:

[windansea]

75. here are the relevant paragraphs

In this process, in particular, we find sufficient controls, including security paper for the petitions, full identification of the citizen with signature and thumbprint, summary forms (actas) listing the petition (planillas) serial numbers during the collection process, party witnesses, personnel trained and designated by the CNE, verification of each petition form and a cross-check with the summary forms, a cross-check of the names with the voters list, and a mechanism for appeal and correction.

We have had some discrepancies with the CNE over the verification criteria. In the case of the petition forms in which the basic data of several signers, but not the signatures themselves, appear to have been filled in by one person, we do not share the criterion of the CNE to separate these signatures, sending them to the appeals process in order to be rectified by the citizens. These occur in such large numbers that they could have an impact on the outcome of the process.

[AP]

78. What happened to "fairness and balance"? You have something like seven

TV stations controlled by the oligarches, and the the Times and Post and every other media outlet in the world cheerleading for neoliberalism, and your best argument against a source with a different editorial agenda than the neoliberals is THIS -- that it's tailor made for useful idiots?

You have it totally ass-backwards. Those seven TV stations, and the Times and Post are the propaganda sources tailor making news stories (with the emphasis on STORIES) for IDIOTS.

[windansea]

80. and the Guardian??

previously pro Chavez but this article seems to show they may have changed their minds and are seeing the light.

you are free to believe whatever sources you like...I guess you are calling Jimmy Carter, Barney Frank, Kofi Annan etc IDIOTS as they are calling on Chavez to stop trying to delay or thwart what they see as a legitimate and legal recall effort.

Hmmmm lets see...whom shall I believe???

[AP]

82. Carter and Cisneros are friends. Careter atteneded his daughter's wedding.

Frank, I believe, is very pro-Israel, and is on record as saying he'd like to see Chavez gone (which he said immediately after the coup!). Why in the world would a social liberal be such a neoliberal? Could it be that he sits on the House banking/finance committee?

I am extremely disturbed by neoliberalism as practiced both by Bush and by Clinton's administration.

I don't care how many people you find outside Venezueala who criticize it, I'm not an idiot and I can see for myself what this struggle is over. It'll be better for everyone except the oligarchs if Chavez wins it.

I never liked fascism at all.

[windansea]

90. my girlfriend is venezuelan

we know hundreds of people there....and you??

3.5 million people signed the referendum to have a recall....thats about the same number that elected him....a good percentage of the opposition are former supporters of chavez...it's so obvious you know very little about this because you keep spouting the same class warfare BS that Chavez does

[AP]

99. Do you know people in the slums or people in the wealthy neighborhoods?

[9215]

125. Ha, Ha, Ha

Good question.

[windansea]

137. you are like a broken record

and you have swallowed Chavez's class warfare crap completely...go to some of the blogs by venezuelans I posted for you and you might learn something

[AP]

145. There's a thread where you're invited to debate the crap,

but you haven't posted to it yet.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1217511

And where are the blogs? Where are the links?

[redqueen]

147. Would you please answer the question?

Are your hundreds of friends poor or not?

[AP]

163. In a country where 4 in 5 live in poverty, if you know 100 people and...

...don't know ANYONE who lives in the slums...

Well, it kind of reminds me of growing up in America in the 50s without knowing any black people and being against civil rights.

[windansea]

183. the opposition to Chavez

is composed of people of all types...many of whom were former Chavez supporters...the largest labor unions in Venezuela are also against Chavez now also

[AP]

185. Right wing talking point. Psst. The labor unions in VZ have been on the...

...side of management forever. That's part of the reason 80% live in poverty in a nation with natural resources which should make it the Monaco (for 100% of the population) of South America.

[redqueen]

273. Ayup

Pretty much lays it bare, don't it?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

166. "class warfare"

ding-ding-ding-ding-ding

Right wing talking point alert!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

167. Excellent question

During the whole Central American mess in the 1980s, there were a lot of North Americans who had ties of one sort or another in the nations affected.

Invariably, if their ties were "My roommate at Yale was from Guatemala" or "My wife's family owns a coffee plantation in El Salvador" or "My father worked as an executive for Coca Cola down there," their sympathies were with the Reagan administration.

If their ties were, "I was in the Peace Corps in Honduras" or "I'm a former nun who was a missionary in Nicaragua" or "I drove the Pan-American highway to Panama and camped in a beat up old VW bus after graduating from college and saw how people down there had to live," their sympathies were with the Sandinistas and with the rebels in the other countries.

[0rganism]

72. Hugo, why the hell are you making the allegation before killing the man?

What kind of pissant dictator are you? You KILL first, then accuse. And you're letting your adversaries get away with ousting you through a democratic process of your own design? Feh. You don't deserve to be El Commandante.

Incredible!

[9215]

81. Methinks Hugo was given false info

on purpose.

Looks like he may have CIA types inside his administration.

The way the pro-fascists so quickly zeroed in on this specific and innocuous info and found Emilio Chavez and did it so quickly..... and then started piling on innuendo makes me suspicious.

Hugo needs to tighten up his change of command. If he can find out how the info was planted it could expose more political skullduggery. I'd guess it probably started with the contact on the street.

Siestas no mas mi amigo, hee, hee, y no dormer, trabajo solamente.

Hope the word order is close.

[AP]

83. In Zimbabwe the CIA has given up on using the MDC to oust Zanu-PF and are

now trying to find ways to compromise Zanu-PF from within.

In fact, the MDC is falling apart now that the west is no longer using them as their primary mode to subvert the government.

I have no doubt they're doing the same in Venezuela.

[9215]

84. Looks to me like the US has reduced its efforts on the frontal

assault and now they are going to try to change public opinion of Hugo with these psy-ops. It is going to be hard to paint him as the villian. Saddam was easy, like Qaddafi. Aristide was just swamped by the suddenness of it all.

I saw "The Revolution is not going to be Televised". I know people, I used to be a family, individual and group counselor. Hugo is one helluva good guy; the polar opposite of Bush. He is working for the good of his people. He can't be bought off or co-opted and he lays it on the line.

Bush wouldn't last an hour under the kind of pressure Hugo is under.

[AP]

88. The thing Chavez did that can't be undone is devolve power to the people.

You can't take back what you've already given people.

We could never have slavery again in America.

If the fascists won again, the repression would be way to brutal for the international community to accept even if CNN and the Times and Post ignored it.

In Haiti, the people never got enough to feel like they've lost something (however, they might still resists ferociously). I guarantee you, if Chavez is ousted, the people are not going to take it sitting down.

Which makes me wonder what the fascists are fighting for. They must know that they have nowhere to go if they win.

That's why destroying Chavez's party from within makes more sense than the referendum.

[windansea]

91. LOL

you saw a movie and you "know people" cuz you were a counselor!!

I'm pretty sure you know nobody in Venezuela, I would give you some venezuelan blogs to read but you are not going to like Hugo so much after reading and looking at pics of some of his torture victims.

[AP]

98. Well, what are you waiting for? Give us the links.

[AP]

120. Still waiting for links...

It's so funny that you spend all your time trying to get people to hate Chavez, but then say you're denying us those links because, if you do, we "are not going to like Hugo so much after reading and looking at pics of some of his torture victims."

Are you really afraid that people like JudyLynn will step into those debates and give people a little bit of the truth?

Why don't you just give us those blog links.

[windansea]

136. here are some pro opposition links

take the time to read them and maybe you will understand that the opposition is not just a bunch of rich oligarchs trying to oppress the poor...

http://www.vcrisis.com/

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/

good history of recall movement here

http://venezuelatoday.net/migueloctavio.html

and here is a link to many venezuelan media

http://venezuelatoday.net/

[9215]

121. Yea, where are some links? nt

[windansea]

94. venezuelans have national ID numbers

it's very easy to locate someone if you have this number

PS...did post 75 answer your questions about the validity of the signatures??

[9215]

102. Damn, you guys are are really

pulling out the stops here. Can't blame you though, I would to if I was biting the dust as hard as El Bushista fascisti are......

Got any links on the National Id? Oh, yea, and provide the pro-and con arguments for the ID as well. English preferred since my Spanish is kinda rough. While you are at it tell me how the impoverished with not nary a pot to piss in are going to suffer from having a NATIOANAL commitment to their livelihood?

Oh holy shit! Loook out we are talking Socialism!!!!!

Well, we already have that for the rich in America, why not have it for the poor in Venezuela and elsewhere. Is that what is REALLY at stake here? The socialisation of the profit seems a logical and human extension of socializing the risk?

A big fucking game to transfer wealth from the public to the private sector. THAT IS WHAT THIS BULLSHIT CRISIS IS ABOUT.

Remember that in the US the formality of a National ID is not required. What is the practical purpose? The US fascist bastards know everything they want to know and that has been proven ad nauseum. A national ID would just piss off their Reich wing constituency unneccessarily. hmmm....its kind of like gun control in Haiti. This national ID paranoia is just more BS from a BFEE Government that hates democracy, and all of its derivatives anyway.


I know this little game you are playing. You are gaming all the socio-politico-economic variables to make it look like you are simply trying to sort out all the confusion when in reality what you are doing is trying to kill any humanitarians, as the democratically elected Chavez is, from making a stand. There are no larger principles of the empire at stake than control of resources.

Chavez is fighting for his peoples rights and the Founding Fathers of this long lost United States would stand firm with him if they were here to speak!!

The US can engage itself in all of these resource wars, but they will lose in the long run. That is because the people will eventually understand that this war is not about democratizing their country, but about the enrichment of the few at the expense to the many. This is what resource wars are always about.

Ironically, the logical consequence of a victory by the fascisti will still end in the destruction of the human race. Even if they win, They LOSE!
In many ways is like trying to win a nuke war: it is undoable.

We have replaced the uwinnable nuke war with the uwinnable resource war(though under a different rubric) and called it an equal threat.

We must solve our environmental problems or ALL of use will die. The only way to do that is to have an energy policy that is Public oriented. YOU are making your children's world unlivable. Even the ideal nepotistic kingdom that many of you aspire to, conciously or unconciously, will fail.

[Judi Lynn]

104. Great post, 9215. The right-wing simply MUST try to conceal its intentions

behind a smokescreen of slander and misinformation directed at the very people they hope to neutralize.

The only thing which facilitates their success is ignorance on the part of the public. They get a lot of mileage from telling us about enemies in other countries, and when they've overdone that, they tell us about Americans we should hate.

They really don't have a lot to offer. I'm surprised ANYONE would indulge right-wingers. It's a state of ignorance most people are lucky to outgrow.

[9215]

123. Thanks

This is an excellent thread. :hi:

[windansea]

138. I told you about the ID numbers

as you were suspicious on how the opposition could track down the guy Chavez lied about in the original post..(which by the way..none of you seem to be talking about)

I am still waiting for your response to my post 75...which quotes the Carter Center on the signature validation...you seem to believe the lies Chavez has promoted that they disqualified one million signatures because the handwriting was similar...the 2 paragraphs in post 75 should clarify that for you.

edit add link to history of recall

http://venezuelatoday.net/migueloctavio.html

please read this so you will be more informed about the recall and the signatures

[9215]

215. You .

keep saying that Chavez lied, when it is just as likely that he was feed false info. You don't have a case that he was intentionally misleading.

Now, about # 75. I want you to tell me what your claim is here. In clear unambiguous terms.

[windansea]

221. pretty simple..it's in plain english

the Carter center says the signatures are valid...re read that first paragraph...fingerprints, cross checks on IDS, witnesses from all sides watching this...security paper...

perhaps this recent article in the Washington Post will clear things up for you

Coup by Technicality

Friday, March 5, 2004; Page A22


LATE LAST YEAR 3,448,747 of Venezuela's 24 million citizens turned out in just four days to sign petitions calling for a recall referendum on President Hugo Chavez. This extraordinary civic exercise, monitored by observers from the Organization of American States and the Carter Center, offered a democratic solution to years of political conflict in that important oil-producing nation -- trouble that threatened to push Venezuela into dictatorship or civil war. Now Mr. Chavez, whose crackpot populism and authoritarian methods provoked the crisis, blatantly seeks to stop the vote, in violation of his commitment to both the OAS and his own constitution. His actions have already prompted a new wave of unrest across the country, including demonstrations in which at least seven people have been killed. Unless he can be restrained, Mr. Chavez may complete his destruction of one of Latin America's most enduring democracies.

Though the constitution, drawn up under Mr. Chavez's own administration, requires 20 percent of all voters to back a referendum, opposition groups collected 1 million signatures more than should have been needed for the recall vote. These signatures were rigorously audited by a nonpartisan civic group before being forwarded to the electoral commission. Yet, after delaying its response for weeks, the commission, dominated by Mr. Chavez's supporters, rejected 1.6 million of them, or nearly half the total. To do so, it invented requirements that didn't previously exist. Most notably, it threw out 876,000 signatures, each accompanied by a thumbprint, because someone other than the voter had entered registration details on the petition.

Mr. Chavez's functionaries subsequently announced that they would give about a million of those stricken from the list a chance to restore their names -- but only if they appear in a limited number of registration centers during one two-day period. In practice, that poses a next-to-impossible logistical challenge to the opposition, even if there were no harassment from Mr. Chavez's police and civilian goon squads. But attempts by the foreign mediators to reverse this Kafkaesque coup have so far been unsuccessful.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31927-2004Mar4.html

[9215]

248. No, it isn't that simple. I want you to state IN YOUR OWN WORDS,

something you have trouble doing these days, what your specific claims are. Short, concise and to the point.

That source is hardly unbiased, for some reason it won't downlowd but I'm assuming its an opinion or editorial not an article:

Now Mr. Chavez, whose crackpot populism and authoritarian methods provoked the crisis, blatantly seeks to stop the vote, in violation of his commitment to both the OAS and his own constitution. His actions have already prompted a new wave of unrest across the country, including demonstrations in which at least seven people have been killed. Unless he can be restrained, Mr. Chavez may complete his destruction of one of Latin America's most enduring democracies.

[windansea]

256. the source was Washington Post

an editorial called Coup by Technicality

My position is simple..I support the constitutional right of venezuelans to have a recall vote..the opposition has produced 3.5 million signatures, more than a million necessary by law, and said signatures were:

"In this process, in particular, we find sufficient controls, including security paper for the petitions, full identification of the citizen with signature and thumbprint, summary forms (actas) listing the petition (planillas) serial numbers during the collection process, party witnesses, personnel trained and designated by the CNE, verification of each petition form and a cross-check with the summary forms, a cross-check of the names with the voters list, and a mechanism for appeal and correction."

http://www.jimmycarter.org/viewdoc.asp?docID=1631&submenu=news

The signature gathering process was witnessed by Chavez supporters, opposition groups, and reps from the Carter Center, and the Carter Center, UN, EU, Barney Frank etc etc are condeming Chavez for trying to subvert the democratic rights of venezuelans, using trumped up technicalities and outright lies (see OP) to invalidate over a million of the signatures.

Just research my posts for the past few weeks, I have been more than clear in my position and have supported it with numerous cites from the above named individuals and respected orgs like AI, HRW, etc etc

[Judi Lynn]

103. Well, I'm back, & read the posts. The D.U. posters were outstanding.

I think it's great that the pro-right-wing-coup-plotters in Venezuela take time out of their busy days to engage Democrats in discussions, as it always brings out information from the shared links that we might not have actually read, had the subject not been active here.

Having a hot Vene. thread going allows us all to learn from our own research, and pool our resources. Then, once we've read the material, and thought about it, we surely can take it with us to discuss with people on OTHER message boards, or people in our daily lives who have not really had the time or incentive to start getting up to date on what _Bush and his collegues have done to Venezuela, by hooking up with people of their caliber in that country.



More information, disclosed in the GUARDIAN:

TURMOIL -- MIRACLE IN VENEZUELA

Chavez Dupes U.S.-backed Coup -- Democratically Elected Leader Unfriendly to U.S. Foreign Policy Regains Power After Two Days Under Military Arrest

by Joe Taglieri, FTW staff

May 6, 2002, 12:00 PM PDT (FTW) -- President Hugo Chavez is once again at the helm of the Venezuelan government. He returned to power just two days after he was arrested April 12 in the wake of a coup d’etat organized and perpetrated by political and military opponents. The apparent coup leader, Pedro Carmona, held the office for less than 48 hours. It has been widely reported the U.S. military provided support to anti-Chavez factions during the coup, and State Department and other U.S. officials met with coup organizers in the months and weeks leading to Chavez’s ouster.

As early as last June, "American military attaches had been in touch with members of the Venezuelan military to examine the possibility of a coup," wrote Britain’s the Guardian newspaper on April 29. Quoting Wayne Madsen, a former Naval and National Security Agency (NSA) intelligence officer who is now an investigative journalist, the paper reported U.S. Navy ships provided signals intelligence and communications jamming support to the Venezuelan military as the coup against Chavez unfolded.

"The NSA supported the coup using personnel attached to the U.S. Southern Command's Joint Interagency Task Force East (JIATF-E) in Key West, Fla.," wrote Madsen and Richard M. Bennett on the Intel Briefing website. "NSA's Spanish-language linguists and signals interception operators in Key West; Sabana Seca on Puerto Rico and the Regional Security Operating Center (RSOC) in Medina, Texas also assisted in providing communications intelligence to U.S. military and national command authorities on the progress of the coup d'etat.

"From eastern Colombia, CIA and U.S. contract military personnel, ostensibly used for counter-narcotics operations, stood by to provide logistics support for the leading members of the coup. Their activities were centered at the Marandua airfield and along the border with Venezuela. Patrol aircraft operating from the U.S. Forward Operating Location (FOL) in Manta, Ecuador also provided intelligence support for the military move against Chavez. Additional USN vessels on a training exercise in the Outer Range of the U.S. Navy's Southern Puerto Rican Operating Area also stood by in the event the coup against Chavez faltered, thus requiring a military evacuation of U.S. citizens in Venezuela. The ships included the aircraft carrier USS George Washington and the destroyers USS Barry, Laboon, Mahan, and Arthur W. Radford. Some of the latter vessels reportedly had NSA Direct Support Units aboard to provide additional signals intelligence support to U.S. Special Operations and intelligence personnel deployed on the ground in close co-operation with the Venezuelan Army and along the Colombian side of the border."
(snip/...)

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/050702_miracle.html

[Judi Lynn]

105. Comparisons Between Recent U.S.-Backed Coups: Caracas and Kathmandu

This is a continuation of writing from Wayne Masden, quite interesting, and prompted by the reference to CIA and "psyops":

Comparisons Between Recent U.S.-Backed Coups: Caracas and Kathmandu
by Wayne Madsen



One thing about the CIA is that their playbook rarely changes. Take for example, the agency's involvement in the recent abortive military coup against Venezuela's democratically-elected President Hugo Chavez. The April 13 Washington Post reported that during the period leading up to the coup against Chavez, “members of the country's diverse opposition had been visiting the U.S. Embassy ... hoping to enlist U.S. help in toppling Chavez. The visitors included active and retired members of the military, media leaders and opposition politicians.”

The CIA, which had a special covert team in Venezuela since last June, had groomed these potential coup leaders, which now appears to have also included members of the proto-fascist Roman Catholic cult, the Opus Dei ….

But the most interesting aspect of the visits of Venezuelans to the U.S. Embassy before the coup there is the similarity to events that took place in Kathmandu during the months prior to the massacre of Nepal's Royal Family last June.

On June 1st, 2001, King Birendra, his wife and all his children, were assassinated. His younger brother, Gyanendra, was conveniently absent from the from the palace at the time of the massacre of all those who were ahead of him in succession to the throne. At first, Gyanendra and Prime Minister Girija Koirala announced that the worst royal massacre since the assassination of the Romanovs of Russia in 1917 had been caused by an automatic weapon that had gone off by itself. Soon, the explanation for the massacre was changed to a story befitting any Hollywood script. It was then announced that the King's oldest son, Crown Prince Dipendra, had murdered his entire family and then shot himself because his mother had forbidden him to marry a commoner. The new King Gyanendra's only son, Paras, an unpopular brute, was at the palace during the slaughter but managed to survive without so much as a scratch. Gyanendra himself has long been a CIA and U.S. corporate stooge. For example, he has a relationship with Henry Kissinger that goes back to the 1970s and the Ford administration. On the other hand, King Birendra wanted to open peace negotiations with the rebels and was also known to be a stauch anti-Indian Nepali nationalist.
(snip/...)

http://www.monthlyreview.org/0902madsen.htm

[AP]

106. Bush's best friend in the UK, the owner of Cairn Energy, has a big oil

business in Nepal.

[0007]

107. ....is that the cause of the troubles Nepal has been experiencing lately?

[AP]

108. No doubt.

[Judi Lynn]

109. Interesting, AP. Thanks a lot.

That leaves even more to consider, doesn't it?

Yuck!

Appreciate your input.

On edit:

Just went to the google dumpster, found the following:

"Wrong, Wrong, Wrong"
Nepal, Bush and Real WMDs
By CONN HALLINAN

Tucked into the upper stories of the Himalayas, Nepal hardy seems ground zero for the Bush Administration's next crusade against "terrorism," but an aggressive American ambassador, a strategic locale, and a flood of U.S. weaponry threatens to turn the tiny country of 25 million into a counter insurgency bloodbath.

More than 8,000 Nepalese have died since a civil war broke out in 1996, and the death rate has sharply increased with the arrival of almost 8,400 American M-16 submachine guns, accompanied by U.S. advisors, high tech night fighting equipment, and British helicopters.

For most Americans, Nepal, birthplace of the Buddha and home to Everest, the world's high mountain, is a charming tourist haven. For the native Nepalese, 42 percent of whom, according to the World Bank, live below the poverty line, Nepal is a land enchained by caste, riven with ethnic rivalries, and dominated by a feudal landlord class.

The central protagonists in the current war are King Gyanendra, who abolished an elected parliament last year, the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) (CPNM), which is leading a rural insurrection, and a group of five political parties that found themselves out in the cold when the monarchy took over.
The Bush Administration has concluded that the civil war threatens to make Nepal a "failed state" and a haven for international terrorists, leading it to place the NCPM on the State Department's "Watch List," along with organizations like al Qaida, Abu Sayaf, and Lebanon's Hezbollah.
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/hallinan01312004.html

Damn! You can almost see the pattern....... Hmmmm.

[AP]

111. The New Yorker had an article about this a while ago.

The article laid out in detail the official line on the murders, but, IIRC, at the end, the author then laid out in a few paragraphs enough infomration to make you think that everything she said up to that point could be total BS and that the family was murdered because of oil and because they King was about to democratize the country and do a deal with the rebels that would mean more of the nation's wealth would flow to the Nepalese rather than out to the owners of Cairn Energy.

[frank frankly]

110. thanks, AP! good information, as always!

now, i will be careful not to say anything else about this thread and why it was started! it should, i suppose, be obvious.

[AP]

112. Another interesting thing about Cairn Energy:

Somehow, Blair got them to keep their paws out of Iraq. They issued a press release a few months ago saying that they had no plans to bid for work in Iraq and were going to focus their efforts elsewhere -- Nepal, in particular.

I have a hard time imagining the circumstances whereby Tony Blair has told Bush's best friend in the UK that they're not allowed to make money off of Bush's invasion, but, someone, it's happened. The UK, in general, isn't using Iraq as a way to transfer wealth to private companies, which might explain it. However, I think there's another story that isn't being told.

I definitely think the media and the right wing is trying to destroy Blair in the UK. I bet if he were gone, Cairn Energy would be in Iraq within minutes.

[frank frankly]

116. AP, have you read Greg Palast when he writes about Blair?

I must admit, your positive words about Blair still surprise me, but I respect your posts...so I guess I hate Blair a little less now.

Do you think Blair is a war criminal like Bush?

I've been meaning to ask you this for awhile now, I hope you can tell I am being sincere.

Thanks!

:hi:

[AP]

118. I like Blair. I can't deny it.

Pallast hates EVERYONE (except Chavez and Joe Stiglitz, but he calls Chavez a moderate who would have fit in well with the JFK view of international development).

Blair has raised wages and wealth (and raised them the most among the bottom two quintiles) and has lowered unemployment to record levels, and is undoing centuries old institutions of conservativism in the UK, while working within a system that is still DEEPLY conservative. Blair isn't the goal, but he's definitely the transition to the goal. He's making changes which will have permanence and will not easily be undone by the next conservative gov't (as Clinton's were undone by Bush).

I also think he had no real choice but to go into Iraq. I think part of the reason the US is there is because they want to control the spigot of European economic development, and it would have been suicide for European liberal progress if Bush were in there alone. He'd turn off the spigot, sending European economies into chaos, which would revive right wing governments across the continent.

But we can discuss that in another thread...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

119. I also think there is a difference between hating and exposing everyone.

That's supposed to be his job.

[frank frankly]

124. thanks, AP, for responding!

we'll have to discuss this more on another thread sometime!

[Vladimir]

134. I have to disagree about Blair

although comparing him to Bush is ridiculous, of course. And you are right that Blair has indeed implemented some leftist policies in his time - the minimum wage is a triumph for example. And the constitutional refrom is slowly going somewhere - it might even end up in a democratic place. However:

1) Blair has introduced tuition fees, plans to introduce top up fees, and would probably have no qualms about a privatized university sector eventually. He is single-handedly destroying the principle of education as a right paid for out of general taxation.

2) Blair's reforms of the hospital system have moved Britain one step closer to abolishing the NHS altogether. This is an issue which even Maggie Thatcher didn't dare to fuck with.

3) We'll disagree amicably about Iraq I think... my realpolitik doesn't quite go that far.

4) Blair is on a mission to demolish what is left of the trade unions in Britain, and to push them out of the Labour party. This will lead to a situation where unions do deals with both left and right wing parties depending on who throws the biggest bone to their memebers at the time, and will destroy the solidarity necessary for a proper trade union movement to function. Once again, he is continuing Thatcher's work.

V

[AP]

139. Blair's tuition program is one of the most liberal things he has done.

Tuition has gone up, but you don't have to pay unless you earn a minimum level of income, and you never have to pay more than a fixed percentage of your income.

Now, ability to pay is no longer an issue with students. They pay nothing as students. Their parents pay nothing. Basically, your employer pays for your education now. It's brilliant. America should have a program like this.

Oh, and their's no interest either. The banks would never agree to that here in the US.

Although the price has gone up, the present value of the cost of education for a college student is surely less than it is now for students. I'd rather pay 4,000 in the future when I had a job, then 2,500 when I was a student and had no income and would have to go into debt (and pay interest on the debt) now.

The NHS was a mess when Blair took over and now it's doing a decent job of treating people. This is one of the trickiest issues to address, but to say that Blair is making health care worse in the UK is the opposite of the truth.

[Vladimir]

146. I think you are wrong on both counts

First of all on healthcare - I am not saying the treatment you are getting now is worse. It is almost certainly better. But his new plans for Foundation Hospitals, run 50/50 with the private sector will not only create a two-tier health system where money and skilled personnel are siphoned off from the non-foundation hospitals, but will also set a precedent which may well be later on used to decrease public health care funding considerably.

On tuition fees, I find your argument deeply flawed. First of all, before Blair, you didn't have to pay full stop. University education was free to everyone, and once upon a time students even got maintenance grants from the government to help with the living costs. Blair brought in tuition fees in the first place - as a precursor to the top-up fees he is now about to introduce. So that is important to understand, that Blair introduced the up-front payment - it wasn't there before him.

Secondly, why should students not contribute? This is in fact a question I have struggled with a lot, but I find two basic answers:

1) They will anyway when they are earning, because students make more money on average and under a progressive tax will pay more back.

2) It is true that there is no interest, but it is also true that insurance companies will use your debt when calculating your credit rating. This means that even if you aren't earning enough to start paying the debt off, it will hang around your neck. That in turn will make students more likely to choose careers based on how much they will be paid in the future - and not based on what they wish to pursue as a career.

And finally, Blair's reforms are the first step to privatization in my opinion. The next step will be to raise fees from 4000 to around 10-15000, and then to allow the best universities to go private. All the university chancellors have been pushing for the American system for years now - Blair is giving it to them slowly because, politically, he couldn't get away with privatising things now.

V

[AP]

161. Healthcare and education were two things that were falling apart before

Blair showed up. You can't have a liberal democracy without those things, and he's fixing them.

Why don't you start a new thread, and we'll discuss.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

165. OK, enough you two. You're respectfully exchanging ideas here.

No time for that. What this is about is how the monster Hugo Rafael Chavez Frias, is the next Mao Tse Manuel Hitler. Keep up will you.

[Vladimir]

171. LOL

I love the sig picture btw. man

V

[Judi Lynn]

127. Never heard of any of these rascals.

I found _{George W.'s} name in this small article, the first I've looked for on this subject: yet another oil biggie best bud of _Dubya's:

Cairn Energy discovers gas reserves in western India
07-08-01 Cairn Energy, the Edinburgh oil and gas exploration company, announced the discovery of gas reserves in western India which it said could be worth £ 71 mm to the company. It said that exploratory drilling at the offshore Lakshmi gas field, near Gujarat, had led to the discovery of reserves expected to produce 103.3 mm cf of gas, or 17,000 bpd of oil equivalent. The find is estimated at 300-400 bn cf of gas.

Bill Gammell, Cairn's CEO, said that the discovery would increase the company's gas reserves by a third. He said that the decision to drill had been taken in May and an appraisal well had now confirmed that the field was commercial.

"From the company's point of view it is very good news. Our share of the reserve is worth around $ 100 mm and the original drilling cost $ 4 mm It adds about one third to our existing reserve; the gross value of the discovery is around $ 250 mm. "We will drill development wells in summer next year and we expect to begin production by early 2002.

Mr Gammellsaid he was hopeful of finding more reserves after further exploratory drilling in the region. Cairn is the operator of the Lakshmi venture, holding a 75 % stake, along with TATA Petrodyne, which has 15 % stake, and the state-owned Indian company ONGC, with 10 %.
ONGC has a right to increase its stake to 40 % in the event of a successful discovery and it is expected that this will happen, reducing Cairn's stake to 50 % and TATA's to 10 %. This would not diminish the value of the discovery to Cairn Energy, Mr Gammell said. Mr Gammell is a close friend of George W. Bush, the US president.

They met in 1959 when George Bush Sr sent his 13-year-old son, "Dubya", to holiday at the Gammell's family farm in Perthshire. Cairn Energy operates mainly in India and Bangladesh, where it has a net acreage of about 15,000 sq km (3.7 mm acres) as well as a small position in the North Sea.
(snip)

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/discover/dix13549.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted: 19-Jan-04 at 15:38 | IP Logged

From Scotland on Sunday


Scots oil independent makes major Indian oil find

NEIL THAPAR


CAIRN Energy, Britain’s biggest independently listed oil explorer, has made one of the biggest ever oil discoveries on the Indian sub-continent, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.

The group will today announce it has struck oil at an onshore plot in the Indian desert state of Rajasthan with estimated initial oil reserves of over 500 million barrels, about the size of the biggest oil find in the North Sea in recent years.

News of the find, still at an early stage of being evaluated, is likely to provide a boost to Cairn’s shares on Monday and will take the markets by complete surprise. Its share nudged up just 5p to 370p on Friday. It is a stunning victory for Cairn’s chief executive Bill Gammell, a friend of US president George Bush, and vindicates Gammell’s long-held belief in India’s oil prospects despite widespread scepticism in the industry.

The size of the find is huge in relation to Cairn’s market value of £550m and will also spark a rush of oil prospectors to India, which has to import most of its oil to fuel a rapidly growing market of a billion people.
(snip/...)

http://www.fillyaboots.com/f7/forum_posts.asp?TID=1106&PN=1

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks for bringing up this guy, AP, if I've got the right one. It looks as if there's yet one more guy in there, helping them to "make the pie higher" for themselves.

[Judi Lynn]

115. Interesting look at something we don't see a lot.

Found it at google!

PROPAGANDA PLANNING PROCESS
"Propaganda Planning" is based upon "Psychological Operations Field Manual No.33-1" published in August 1979 by Department of the Army Headquarters in Washington DC; and "Psychological Operations (PSYOP) Media Subcourse PO-0816" by The Army Institute for Professional Development, published in 1983
Propaganda planning is a continuous process requiring imagination and determination. It must be responsive to immediate change brought about by any new condition or circumstance affecting the target audience or the psychological objective. The resulting plan is also subject to change.

The propaganda planning process must be flexible. Targets of opportunity should be exploited as they arise. Opportunities to exploit a vulnerability may be lost by inflexible insistence on implementing the original plan. Vulnerabilities, conditions, target audiences, objectives, and themes often change rapidly due to shifts in events and policies. Planning may precede or follow the decision to carry out a course of action. Whether the planning precedes or follows the decision, the ingredients are essentially the same for any PSYOP Psychological Operations) plan. For example, contingency plans follow the same pattern; they cover a variety of situations, such as the end of hostilities, intervention by other nations, the use of new weapons, changes in political conditions, and changes in the military situation. Contingency plans are designed to be implemented immediately upon order when the anticipated and prepared for event occurs.

PLANNING CONSIDERATIONS

Realistic objectives that can be achieved within policy limitation.

Analysis of the existing military and political situation.

Sources of information.

Delineation of the target and its accessibility.

Themes to be used to achieve PSYOP objectives.

Themes to be avoided.

li]Media to be employed.

Formal staffing and coordination required to effect the plan.
(snip)


AVOIDING THE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE
The following statements apply in limited, general, and cold war:


In a foreign internal defense situation, avoid propaganda that places the host country in a secondary position. US Army psychological operations support host country efforts.

Do not use terms, weights, or measures that are foreign to the target audience.

Do not translate directly from English to a foreign language.

Instead, give the linguist an idea or concept and have the concept phrased in the local language.

Do not add credence to enemy propaganda through words or actions.

Make definite positive statements.

Avoid the negative.

Do not appear uncertain.

When preparing messages for dissemination, follow the rule that any statement or action which can be misinterpreted will be misinterpreted.

Do not distribute propaganda that can be easily altered by the enemy to their advantage.

Avoid themes to which host country and enemy troops are equally vulnerable.

Do not insult or anger the target audience. Keep their minds open and their emotions friendly.

Do not use strong threats. Use threats only to meet or arouse a need, and present them as facts.

Do not give free publicity to enemy atrocities in the host country. Use enemy atrocities to gain sympathy abroad.

Keep all promises; if uncertain of ability to deliver, don't promise.

Security permitting, warn civilians of impending artillery fires, naval gunfire, and aerial bombardment.
(snip)

http://www.psywarrior.com/propplan.html

[0007]

117. Holy Smoke!! Are we witnessing real live "Psychological Operations"

here on DU? LOL!! I can imagine a large room with computers and teams of spooks porking out propaganda by the truck loads, just to counter internet action.

[frank frankly]

122. it would appear, 007, that we have been "spooked"

peace out!

[worldgonekrazy]

210. could be hitler's "mein kampf"

but no, its our very own fascists!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

126. Does DU have any specific rules on passing someone else's words

as your own?

[frank frankly]

129. they probably do--maybe you could point it out to them!

i've just done so.

what a great catch, smirky!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

130. You know I thought about it. But I wanted to hear some kind of explanation

,which hasn't come so far.

[Judi Lynn]

131. That was definitely a great catch, smirkmeister!

Who would have expected something like that to happen at the Democratic Underground?

Why THAT'S just like LYING, isn't it? I think it's almost too abhorrent to overcome. Now THAT took nerve. Can you believe it? I just don't think there is enough time in the day to explain how much of a TYRANT you'd have to be do even consider doing that on a message board.

It's so RIGHTWING. The exceeding lowness of it reminds me of the scuzball in Orin Hatch's office who spied on the Democrats' e-mails.

By the way, you must be so proud to have located the first SMALL moran, the portable moran photo seen around. We're all green with envy.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

132. Right on, thanks.

Something about the post read too "editorially" for me......I got the pic. from the one and only Mike Malloy's web site.

[windansea]

143. new info

above is the photo of Emiliano Chavez

Well, Emiliano himself, who is 61 years old, said that he is not only alive but he did sign the petition to recall Chavez. Chavez (no relation) suggested the president has bad advice, affirming: I signed, and I am willing to do it again.

Then there is Maria Gregoria Ibarra, National ID number 5070673, who Chavez said did not exist but confirmed, today that she is very much alive and that is her number.

Finally, Nancy Consalvi de Rangel showed up at the Unidad Headquarters to say that she did exist and that was also her national ID number despite the President’s claims that she had used an ID number that did not belong to her.

Well, Chavez attempted to show with a statistically insignificant number of cases that the opposition had committed fraud, but in the all he showed was that there was no fraud and that those surrounding him are too incompetent to even try to cook up charges of fraud against the opposition.

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/

[Minstrel Boy]

155. What an allegation:

"those surrounding him are too incompetent to even try to cook up charges"

What a yolk of suffering. For the love of God, can't the CIA do something?

Quick, somebody, queue a competent and compliant SOA graduate!

[AP]

158. Funny. With all the press that shoud be willing to tell these lies, these

bloggings are just pictures and claims -- they don't cite anything.

I could take pictures of people holding up cards and make claims about them.

Where's the supporting evidence that this stuff is what it's claimed to be.

It's not like there isn't millions of dollars at stake for evil people hanging on the truth.

[Judi Lynn]

168. I've found a reference to your author, Teodoro Petkoff

which doesn't sound all that "independent" or "leftist" at all.

He's described as "Talcual tabloid editor and former guerrilla, Teodoro Petkoff"' here:
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=2890

He's mentioned again, as "Teodoro Petkoff, a former leftist guerrilla, is a successful newspaper publisher" here:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_america/jan-june02/venezuela_5-23.html


(We have some unbelievable assholes who used to be "leftists" during the 1960's in this country. They weren't that cool in the '60's, either.)

I also found the following odd bit:

Dear Colleagues,

I just received this response from editor Ted Petkoff of TalCual in Venezuela, so dignified and revealing of the character of Mr. Petkoff and his yellow journal. I share it with you without editing it.

Petkoff writes me:
"usted me parece un perfecto imbecil, a real asshole, una especie de hedda hopper, un aficionado a la chismografia y con un espiritu de inquisidor digno de joe mac carthy. ultraizquierdista pero fascista en el fondo (los extremos se tocan). saqueme de su correo y vaya a darle lecciones al cono de su madre (espero que entienda, you motherfucker)."

Poor little Petkoff... It seems he is finally discovering that the authentic journalists of the world already don't take him seriously, nor his corrupt and interested "newspaper." We all know of his lack of ethics. But what is really new is his obsession with my mom!

And what, Petkoff? The results of your "strike" -- your second attempt at a coup d'etat in a year -- haven't put you in a good mood?

Kisses, Teddy,
(snip/...)
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=968

I'll be damned if I didn't spot the name of one of your OTHER references you used recently, Phil Gunson!
He said, But don't you believe that a journalist has a duty to disclose his conflicts of interest? If a journalist uses his ex-girlfriend as his only source for a lie with consequences ... as Gunson did ... shouldn't he disclose his connection with that person in his text? (snip)
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=968

If you don't mind my saying so, it's hard as heck trying to get any sense of legitimacy about your two sources. Holy moly. Sorry. No sale.

[mobuto]

169. You always manage to shoot the messenger, Judi

but you never manage to get to the substance.

Why would that be?

Out of curiosity, do you have a draft press release available from the Ministry of Communication on this? I'd assume you'd be the one to ask.

[Judi Lynn]

173. What substance? It's not there. There's no there there.

The world-famous "Ministry of Communication?" Don't tell me it's in Venezuela.

[mobuto]

177. No, its in a Carribean island nation

of course.

[windansea]

231. and the supreme leader

has a beard and likes cigars...heh heh

:thumbsup:

[mobuto]

258. You said it, not I

[Judi Lynn]

174. What substance? It's not there. There's no there there.

The world-famous "Ministry of Communication?" Don't tell me it's in Venezuela.

I found another Petkoff observation:

"It is not that the government won, but rather that the opposition lost," said Teodoro Petkoff, a newspaper editor and analyst. "But the government came out ahead, stronger overall, though it is facing a catastrophic economic situation."

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/venezuela/forero01.html

I think this might conflict with some information posted by AP earlier in the thread.


On edit:Found something else on Petkoff

“It was at that time that Venezuela was screwed,” said Teodoro Petkoff, publisher of the daily newspaper Tal Cual. As Minister of Planning during the 1990’s, Petkoff had to contend with the effects of the binge.

“The way the oil windfall of those years was administered was irrational and the economy got so bloated that the whole country suffered indigestion. It’s common sense,” Petkoff said. “If you eat soup and a steak every day, and suddenly you’re eating three bowls of soup and three steaks, well, obviously you’ll spend the next three days sitting on the toilet.”

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu:7001/Academics/courses/center/spring2003/petroleum2003/rodriguez.html

O.K. I saw Petkoff was the Minister of Planning in the 1990's, and went and got this time line. Tell me if it seems accurate:

1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.


HUGO CHAVEZ
The colourful president survived 2002's short-lived coup


1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez was jailed for two years before being pardoned

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/country_profiles/1229348.stm

This would tell me he was the Minister of Planning during the Presidency of the utterly corrupt and stupid Carlos Andres Perez, who was impeached for corruption, and implemented such harsh financial burdens on the poor that they rioted, and then had a bunch of them gunned down in numbers that I've read estimated from around a couple of hundred to far, far higher, in the event called "El Caraccazo." That would be easy to locate in a search, of course.

So Petkoff is connected to the earlier, very, VERY corrupt Perez, who fled to avoid further government trouble and took up residence in Miami, New York, and the Dominican Republic. Great. What a resume.

[AP]

182. Credibility of the witness is always an issue. If they have a reason to &

a record of lying or have a bias, it's definitely worth noting.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

175. Tal Cual? You mean the same rag responsible for this masterpiece in

photoshop?



Fotomontaje del diario Tal Cual el 25 de Septiembre de 2003.







Foto original tomada por Feliciano Sequera, fotógrafo del Palacio Miraflores, el 24 de Septiembre de 2003 en el Foro Mundial de Mujeres

[Judi Lynn]

180. So THEY'RE the ones who did that! Unbelievable!

Cool resource, I'm sure!

Thanks for steering us straight on TAL CUAL, Smirky_W_BinLaden.

[windansea]

179. you are confused

the author of the blog I cited above in salon is Miguel Octavio

[Judi Lynn]

186. I'm getting worn out looking for something he has written

of a non-blog nature, at least in English. I just finished 5 pages of google, and I'm spent.

You probably should rely on actual professional, respected writers, would be my bet.

[windansea]

201. LOL

every source I post you character assasinate...even Jimmy Carter!!

Octavio is just a citizen of Venezuela..a non "corporate media" source of info on the opposition POV..but he does back up his writing with links to articles and organizations, photos, videos right off the TV etc

[AP]

209. "character assassinate"? Cross examine on the issue of credibility

is a key part of making an argument.

I guess if you have nothing to buttress your witnessess's credibility, you're only left with calling any investigation of your witnessess's credibility bad names.

[windansea]

233. I don't need to buttress the credibility

of Jimmy Carter, Barney Frank, Kofi Annan, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc...they have 100,000,000 times more credibility than the anonymous posters who have tried to trash their names in thios and other threads.

as far as Emiliano Chavez, the guy Hugo Chavez said was a dead woman .....I don't need to prove his credibility...ya see he stepped forward with his national ID number with his photo on it...even more credibility (if you need it) is that the Guardian, previously 100% pro Chavez...saw fit to carry the story.

[AP]

236. You desperately need to address the challenges to their credibility

[windansea]

242. sorry but Carter, Frank, UN, AI, HRW etc

have more credibility with me and 99% of DU-ers than anonymous posters...the more you attack people and organizations like that the more you prove my point.

[AP]

245. Yeah. Lots of prominent people are putting their necks out in defense of

liberalism and challenging neoliberalism, and the neoliberal press is giving them lots of attention too, right?

I'll go with what I know is right, which is standing up to fascism, even if I can't find any cheerleaders to fascism in the pages of the NYT or anywhere other than DU.

[windansea]

301. fascism can come from both directions

left or right

[windansea]

218. PS...you slammed Phil Gunson as a RW whore

because an article I posted by him was in the Miami Herald, but if you look at some of his former and current employers like the Guardian and Newsweek...I'd have to say he is an actual professional and respected writer.

He is also president of the foreign press assoc of venezuela

Phil Gunson is a British journalist and president of the Foreign Press Association in Venezuela. He has covered Latin America for 25 years and has been based in Caracas for the last five . Formerly Latin America correspondent for The Guardian and The Observer, he's currently writing primarily for The Miami Herald, Newsweek, The St. Petersburg Times and The Independent.

http://venezuelatoday.net/phil_gunson.html

[Judi Lynn]

170. Dupe. n/t

[dax]

172. Or maybe some of those around him are already BOUGHT by the fetal coup

the FIRST thing they do is purchase government officials and aides and police-Chavez is good but he is not perfect-someone in his chain of info is working for the other side-

[enki23]

200. oh jesus. now *there's* a big deal

arguing over whether *one* number on a recall petition is legit or not is surely a very potent bit of evidence that chavez is a tyrannical dictator intent on stealing everything he can from the whiter citizens of venezuela.

[windansea]

204. you miss the point

Chavez was speaking to foreign diplomats and telling them that over a million signatures were suspect..he used 6 examples and 3 of the people he said didn't exist or were dead came forward and siad.."here I am" and yes I signed the referendum.

The fact is...the process of getting the 3.5 million signatures was WITNESSED by Chavez supporters, opposition supporters, and representatives of the Carter Center and OAS.

In this process, in particular, we find sufficient controls, including security paper for the petitions, full identification of the citizen with signature and thumbprint, summary forms (actas) listing the petition (planillas) serial numbers during the collection process, party witnesses, personnel trained and designated by the CNE, verification of each petition form and a cross-check with the summary forms, a cross-check of the names with the voters list, and a mechanism for appeal and correction.

http://www.cartercenter.org/viewdoc.asp?docID=1631&submenu=news

The validity of the sigatures and holding a recall is supported by statements of the UN, the EU, the OAS, the Carter Centre, Kofi Annan, Milos Alcalay, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Lech Walesa, the Inter American Court of Human Rights, Barney Frank etc etc

Chavez is trying to use lies and technicalities to avoid the recall, because he knows he will probably lose if it goes to a fair vote.

[9215]

216. Here is your problem

"Chavez was speaking to foreign diplomats and telling them that over a million signatures were suspect..he used 6 examples and 3 of the people he said didn't exist or were dead came forward and siad.."here I am" and yes I signed the referendum."


Chavez may have been, and I would bet he was, given false information. THAT is what needs to be determined at this point, where did he get this info from?

You are the one making false claims that Chavez is a liar when all we have are second person accounts from "foreign diplomats". Is there a recording of Chavez's actual comments?

See #81


PS. Remember the pro-fascists shot innocent people in the 2002 coup and the fascist owned press tried to pin it on Chavez. This is documented in "The Revolution won't be televised". The possibility of Chavez being set up on this matter of the signatures is something that should be investigated.

I have one other thing to ask. I would like to see something you have written about the 2000 election calling for a referendum on Bush. If you haven't why not?

[windansea]

223. I was not living here for 3 years including 2000

and much more informed people than I have written extensively on that subject. I am writing about the recall in Venezuela because I know a bit about it.

The info Chavez gave in his speech re the false signatures was prepared by his own people...it's astounding they didn't check it out (it's easy to do) and provides a glimpse into his incompetence.

[9215]

247. So now you agree that claiming Chavez was a "liar" is

overreaching based on the evidence to date?


I'm not interested in other "informed" people I want to see from you the same interest in Bush's questionable election as you have spent on Chavez's referendum.

[windansea]

310. nope...he's a liar

just like bush claiming there are wmd's

Chavez got caught lying that signatures are from dead people, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The opposition met with the Consejo Nacional Electoral and asked for the electoral Board to clarify a number of inconsistencies in the data, before accepting whether to go or not to the process of having citizens confirm or not that they signed to request for the President’s recall. The following are some of the criticisms of the data. The opposition challenged the validity of the CNE database, including the following inconsistencies:

i) The regulations established a total of five (5) criteria for invalidating a signature; the CNE used thirty eight (38) different criteria.

ii) The CNE President said when announcing the results of the analysis of the data that they had accepted 3.086.013 signatures as being in the forms, the CNE database contains 3.475.200 signatures the opposition handed in.

iii) The CNE President said 1.832.493 signatures had been declared valid, the database says only 1.783.523 have been accepted.

iv) There are 224 thousand signatures that the CNE rejected due to errors in the cover sheets that the opposition has as accepted by the CNE and stamped by the CNE.

v) There are 28 thousand signatures rejected because they do not appear in the cover sheets, the opposition claims they are there.

vi) There are 23 thousand signatures “lost” by the CNE which now the CNE has “found” and is processing.

vii) There are 276 thousand signatures that have inconsistencies with the Electoral registry and most of them have no problem and are correct.

viii) Of the controversial forms with the same calligraphy, the opposition “discovered” that 54% of them do not have the same calligraphy.

Now, what this implies is the following:

Carrasquero said 1.83 million had been accepted and 876 thousand were planas. The opposition claims 54% of the latter were not planas AT ALL. Add those 473 thousand and the opposition has 2.303 million and it needs 2.432 million, a difference of only 129 thousand signatures which could easily be obtained in the confirmation process. .

Additionally, if you add to that totals 1.83 million+473 thousand (viii) + 276 thousand (vii) + 23 thousand (vi) + 28 thousand (v) + 224 thousand (iv), you get 2.854 million signatures, more than 400 thousand than required.

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/

[worldgonekrazy]

206. have you seen "the revolution will not be televised"?

i'm guessing no. because if you had you would have seen that the so called free press took video of rioters shooting into a crowd of anti-chavez demonstrators and made it look as if it were chavez's guards.

if they are willing to pull a fraud like that, why couldn't this be a fraud to?

next time i suggest you educate yourself before shooting your mouth off.

[AP]

211. I keep asking this question too. Those opposition snipers shot people

in the head.

If your side is so right, why are you shooting innocent people protesting for democracy in the head?

[worldgonekrazy]

212. because you're corporate fascists?

that is sure the impression that "the revolution will not be televised left me with". truly a great film.

[AP]

213. probably one of the best political documentaries ever. It's right up there

with the Llumumba: Death of a Prophet.

[9215]

214. You gotta see "The Battle of Algiers". I

saw "The Revolution....." at about the same time.

[mobuto]

217. Uh, you realize that the thesis of the Battle of Algiers

is basically that the French won?

[9215]

219. Did you see the movie?

[mobuto]

220. Many times

n/t

[9215]

224. How do you define win?

Or more precisely, what was won?

[mobuto]

227. The entire terrorist organization was eliinated

the terrorists ultimately proved irrelevant, as the entire population rose, but the specific problem was won by the French through the use of clever police work and, yes, torture.

[AP]

238. Nonetheless, three years later there were spontaneous protests in the...

streets, and the French left Algiers.

In fact, the terrorists won in Algiers.

[AP]

239. The director of that movie was in the Itallian resistance in WWII.

He sympathized with the Algerians in that movie. He saw their battle with French as the same battle he fought in Italy against the Nazis who occupied his country.

The point of the movie is that you can be a violent, imperialist opressor, and terminate everyone in the pyramid of command, but the imperialists can never win in the end.

Are the French in Algeria today?

[mobuto]

253. Are the French in Algeria today?

Why, yes they are. La Legion Etrangere remains a familiar fixture of the former departement.

I think the movie argues that the French were limited only by their unwillingness to match the FLN in bloodthirstyness. French public opinion defeated the French, not the Algerians. I'm not sure I buy that, but that's what I think the movie argues.

[AP]

274. Yes former colonizers are still trying to fuck up the world from a ...

...distance, such as Rwanda (for the French) and Algeria, and they try to hamper development. That's what neo- and post-colonialism are all about. However, you can't deny that Ali LaPoint helped bring an end to colonialism. It wasn't JUST the movie, or the French popular opinion which it influenced. It was everything.

Colonialism is over.

Now we're going to bring an end to neo-colonialism.

Your days are numbered.

[Judi Lynn]

276. Bravo, AP! About time, isn't it? n/t

[mobuto]

278. MY days are numbered?

Bwahahaha. I don't know who you think I am, but I can assure you I don't parade in khakis and a pith helmet.

[AP]

280. Not literally. But figuratively, that's exactly what you're doing when you

post apologia's for neocolonialism, etc.

[AP]

241. For emphasis: French LOST in Algiers and are gone today because of

the resistance. The imperialists LOST in Algeria.

When I read that the Pentagon uses this film as an example of how to occupy a country and beat the resistance, I thought, man, people are stupid and pliable if they can be convinced that that's what this movie is about.

[mobuto]

257. The situations are totally different

for one thing, Algeria was only marginally a colony. It was a department of metropolitan France - the equivalent of a US State. Europeans had lived in Algeria for generations. Much of the native population was as westernized as anybody. In fact, one of the contrasts between the Algerians and terrorists in, say, Iraq or the Palestinian territories, is that the Algerians were more-or-less leftists and had little use for religion.

[AP]

261. To say this movie isn't about colonialism and imperialism is stunning.

And that paragraph you wrote reveals a stunning naivity about imperialism.

[AP]

265. I'm still shocked by this post.

Let me get this straight.

You think Algeria wasn't occupied by brutal force and that its citizens were afforded as much control over their destiny as any Frenchman living in France was afforded, or any Floridian has over the destiny of the United States?

You think that Europeans living for generations in Algeria means ANYTHING, and that it justifies the way that Algerians were treated by the French government in Algeria?

You think that "westernization" of the Algerians is relevant? (Apparently, if "westernizing" includes a desire for a democratic say in your destiny, that's just a little too western, eh?)

Your last sentence reminds me of the scene in the movie where the women cut their hair, and of the wedding scene. Do you understand the significance of those scenes? It's because they did care about religion, and the cared about the freedom to practice religion.

[9215]

246. That is your conclusion? And you've seen the movie

five times?

You conclude that the "terrorists were irrelevant"? They didn't, by any chance, have anything to do with the popular uprising that booted the French? The movie itself, a movie that was banned in France, shows the population helping and harboring the "terrorists" at great risk to themselves.




If you asked the people of Algiers they would categorize the terrorists as freedom fighters.

The French lost the entire colony and that is winning? That's the bigger picture. You need to go to a higher level of analysis.

[AP]

249. Good point. If movie shows that French won, why'd they ban it?

People who believe the state department and the pentagon when they say this movie shows the French winning need to sit down and figure out who's wearing the pants in their life, neocons or themselves.

[9215]

254. According to a movie review here in Seattle

the Pentagon has been studying this movie closely in regards to Iraq. The big question is whether opposition to the US in Iraq is popularly based or simply terrorist cells operating in a political and social vacuum. :eyes:

It is amazing that intel types don't grasp the meaning of this movie .

[mobuto]

255. Why?

Because it shows the French government torturing people. Also, becauase Algeria is still very much alive in the memory of the French people. OAS and the French Army were waging pitched battles in the streets of France when the movie was released, and it was just a little too controversial for the time and place.

[9215]

259. Exactly, it was banned because it revealed the truth.

I'm glad we agree for a change. :toast:


Just think of what would happen if the people were told the truth about the wars they are fighting. We'd probably have far fewer

[mobuto]

263. Well,.

it was banned because it showed the French doing less than savory things, but not because the French lost. I think it argues they didn't.

[AP]

266. The French did LOSE in that movie (that's what the last scene is about)

and it was banned because it undermined the argument France was using at that time to justify it's post-colonial relationships around the globe, not just in Africa but in Vietnam as well.

[AP]

267. &BTW, the French lost in Vietnam too, for all the same reasons that the...

...movie shows they lost Algeria because of. And they're the same reasons the fascists won't win in Haiti or Venezuela.

Like MLK said, the arc of human suffering is long, but it alwasy bends towards justice. What the fascists do may win the battle here and there, but it doesn't win the war, and that's what The Battle of Algiers argues.

[Judi Lynn]

268. Definitely appreciate the sentiment, and the belief, AP.

It's obvious there are two forces at work on this thread.

Thanks for pointing out the dynamic remark about the "arc of human suffering." I never heard it when it came around the first time.

Intense. I hope to find reason to believe it's true.

[9215]

270. hmmmm...the Pentagon is watching this movie as it

pertains to Iraq. I wonder if they saw it when it came out in '66?? Of course by then we were already in Vietnam and the government never did learn about throwing good money after bad. But still it should have been a key consideration as the war progressed.

I don't think those who start these wars really care about winning, they just want to profit from the event. Bush in Iraq just wants perma-war. Involvment in Venezuela would just be more of good thing for the war industry. People are asking me why Bush would go into Iraq if he couldn't win I just say he doesn't want to win, that is why he spent zilch on planning for the aftermath: there isn't going to be any aftermath.

This is how Iraq differs from Algiers: the end goal of the occupiers is different. The French wanted a secure colony, the US under Bush doesn't care.

All Bush has to do is fake his death, and cruise in some remote outpost with a bigscreen TV and a line of Peruvian marching powder at the ready. Maybe get a makeover and take on a new identity and party with Osama.

How hard would it be?

[mobuto]

272. No, not true

the French suffered military defeats in Vietnam. They did not in Algeria.

[AP]

275. Colonialism doesn't work, in Algeria or Vietnam. And neither does

post-colonialism, in Zimbabwe, Haiti, Venezuela, or even Jamiaca or the Congo, or South Africa or anywhere.

[mobuto]

277. How about in the United States?

After all, we're a revolutionary post-colonial society as well.

[AP]

279. Is that why you love neoliberalism & neoconservativism? Because you see

in it the American revolution?

The American revolution was a response to imperialism and colonialism.

What makes America great is the exact opposite of what we perpetrate abroad. What's good about America is that there's a level playing field, that we all have an equal opportunity to succeed, and that we're allowed to keep a fair piece of the wealth the create.

What we do abroad is deny people those same rights and opportunities, and we're doing it increasingly at home too.

[9215]

283. Very well said!

:thumbsup:

[9215]

284. delete

.

[9215]

285. For mobuto #277. For some reason

I can't post under his post.

Are you saying that the US colony was a victory for the Brits?
Let's see: you think it worked in Algiers for the French when they were given the boot as well.....hmmm.....now I think I get where you are coming from. You believe that if the colonial power is evicted by the colonized that is a victory for the colonial power. Correct?

So, by that logic, Great Britain won the American Revolution, The US won in Vietnam; as you've already stated the French won in Algiers; The Spanish kicked our asses in the Spanish American war as we drove them from the Phillipines and elsewhere; when we get driven out of Iraq that will be a victory. That's an incredible worldview.....hmmmmm.....that wouldn't be bad feel good triumphalist propoganda if it wasn't for the loss of the American Revolution.

I guess the Axis powers won WWII: as they were booted from each nation the decisiveness of their victory increased. WOW!! I'm just glad my uncles who fought in it didn't find this out.

Dude you oughta co-author a book on World History with the pundit Dave Barry and put it in the comedy section. I'll buy a copy!

I guess the Civil War was a victory for the South as well. :eyes:

[mobuto]

291. No

I didn't say that the French occupation of Algeria was a success, I said that that's what I think was the message of the film, "The Battle of Algiers". The rest of your post is irrelevant nonsense.

[AP]

293. A question: your reading is so far off the mark of what that film

is about, I'm just wondering, who told you to see it that way?

I'm just wondering who in the world would have the chutzpah to try to fool (albeit pliable) minds into misreading the film like that.

[mobuto]

298. Why, it was the CIA of course

In fact, most of my film views are dependent on what the CIA tells me to think.

AP, I'm surprised - I thought you could ask better questions than that. You're slipping.

[9215]

306. mobuto #291, hee, hee

Thats' why I asked you to define what you meant by "win". I knew you were going to try to game the military victory and the French loss.

You obviously saw my earlier topic on the Battle of Algiers where I pointed this out.

You were deliberately vague to obfuscate the only relevant issue and that is that the French got their asses kicked out of Algeria. You did this just to tie up the topic.


I know your game dude, later. ;)

[mobuto]

313. Huh?

I agree that the French should have left Algeria. They did not, however, have "their asses kicked". The decision to leave was purely political, not military.

I know your game dude, later.

No, I don't think you do, at all.

[AP]

319. Their bombers and armies got their asses kicked by bombs in handbaskets.

[9215]

287. test

.

[9215]

269. Well, as the saying goes

You can lead a horse to water, shove his face in it, whack him in the ass.......

But you can't make him drink it.

If you believe the "Battle of Algiers" showed the French won then....well, again, DU rules forbid me from calling you that. ;)

[Judi Lynn]

271. So glad I heard about this movie here

reading your and AP's evaluation of it. Went right off and ordered a copy of it to start getting up to date on this subject.

Within DAYS I, too, will be among the initiated! Thanks to you both.
On edit: I would like to add that being among the "initiated" would probably mean being one of the people who can comprehend the events and their meanings.

[9215]

286. It was showing in local theatres here in

Seattle. I can't say enough about this movie, it should be required viewing for ever student of history starting in high school. I was glued to the screen. The acting is superb, every scene is packed with action. Mathieu, the French general who lead the fight against the terrorists, is candid about the whole thing. The best work on terrorism out there; it shows the inevitable failure of colonialization know matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

[Judi Lynn]

295. Sounds as if this is the best time ever to see the film.

Absolutely honed to see it. Thank you.

[9215]

290. Idelete

.

[AP]

260. It was banned because it equated the French with fascists and undermined

all the justifications for post-colonialism that were being debated at the time.

[AP]

237. You are so wrong. What the hell do you think is happening in the last

scene of that movie?

[LONG-LINER]

225. The problems in Venezuela are not U S caused

I'm sure some signatures were faked but there is obvious unrest.!!

[9215]

251. Welcome to DU

:toast:

US Embassy involved in Venezuelan coup:

During an interview on State VTV program, " En Confianza," Lopez Hidalgo presented evidence of US Embassy complicity in the events of April 11, 2002, implicating a US citizen, who identified himself as a US Major and was captured in 2001 when, the General claims, the coup was in its planning stages.

The US Major was seen in uniform and had been at the 5th Infantry Division in Puerto Paez, Caicara del Orinoco (Monagas) where he stayed in several military units until the US Embassy admitted that he was not on any special assignment.

<http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=14576>


US harboring Venezuelan terrorists:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=314857

[Redleg]

281. U.S. diplomats were implicated in the last coup attempt.

Our adherence to the Monroe Doctrine and our reliance on Venezuelan oil products almost guarantees our involvement in Venezuelan affairs. Chavez may not be a sweetheart but you can damn well bet the guys we are supporting don't give a rat's ass about the Venezuelan people.

[AP]

282. PNAC'ers have admitted they'll persue their goals covertly & overtly

because they're so convinced the ends are correct.

If they're so confident, they should let it hang out in public.

It's such hypocrisy to pretend that the recall referendum is democratic, but they won't telll us the truth about all the covert assitance and the coordination by the oligarchs.

They don't want to debate these people's vision of the future of the world and of neoliberalism.

They just want to tell lies, exaggerate, try to throw an election their way, and then suppress dissent violently if their side wins. That's been the story of the world since December 2000.

[Imajika]

230. windansea

You've done quite a good job on this thread.

Your points are clear, well documented and for the most part unassailable.

There is a reason Carville, Barney Frank, the Carter Center, the UN, the EU and a whole host of other persons and groups, whom the majority of posters on this forum usually speak reasonably highly of, want the referendum to go forward.

Chavez is nothing but a thug masquerading as a populist man of the people. Most Venezeulans have caught on. Chavez's approval ratings are lower than dirt, and he knows full well he'd lose any free and fair referendum.

The Venezuelen constitution allows for a referendum with enough signatures. The opposition clearly acquired the signatures needed to force a vote, and Chavez is using his cronies to try to prevent it. It really isn't any more complicated than that. If Chavez were really a hero of the people, he'd welcome the referendum - as it would prove to the world that he is a popular leader entitled to push forward with the agenda and reforms he's promised. The fact that he is fighting the referendum so hard is a pretty good indicator that he knows full well what the result would be.

Sadly, for the most part, your wasting your time and energy trying to convince the unconvincable. There is a fairly strong fringe left, pro-Castro group of forum members whom would pretty much support Chavez no matter what he does. The fact that Chavez identifies with Fidel, spends an increasingly predictable amount of time warning about American capitalist plots (a tactic straight out of Castro's playbook), and is promising to do for Venezeuala what Castro has done for Cuba, is enough to keep the true believers on board till the bitter end. As you've probably seen, there are people here that actually argue again and again that Cuba is really a democracy. Nevermind that Castro has been in power uninterrupted since 1959 - even this is not enough to prove to some fanatics that Cuba is infact not a real democracy.

Chavez's end is coming. He will either relent to referendum which will result in the people voting him out of office (whether he submits to the will of the people and goes away quietly is another story), or stubbornly resist demands for the constitutional referendum and winds up arrrested and/or killed by a Venezeulan population that is forced to revolt violently. Either way, Chavez's days are numbered. The more Chavez wails about the United States, the more trouble you know he is in. His schtick has worn away and all that is left is the hollow rantings of dimwitted wannabe revolutionary with delusions of granduer.

Imajika

edited for spelling

[windansea]

232. thanks

I realize what I'm dealing with here...when they start slamming Carter, Frank, AI, HRW etc it's quite clear where their political sympathies lie...

[AP]

240. Chavez's poll rating have gone from the 30s to 51%, by the way.

[windansea]

243. heh heh

then he'll have no problem with a recall then...:)

[AP]

244. 2004 could set a record for coups.

[windansea]

264. you are all invited to "Revolution will not be Televised"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1223196

[Tinoire]

307. Screw that RW propaganda

Here's a much better thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=728987

The one you reffered to is just a mirror image of the propaganda one can find.. elsewhere.

But please. Keep posting. The services you are indadvertently rendering to the Left are priceless :)

[windansea]

309. thanks for the words of encouragement!!

I love exposing supposed "lefties" and progressives who post Chavez only propaganda and support a regime that is trying to thwart the constitutional and democratic rights of Venezuelans to have a recall.

sorry but the name of this forum is "Democratic Underground" not socialist underground or Fidel underground.

[AP]

320. Funny that you have to get to that end through arguments that are little

more than apologias for fascism.

[windansea]

323. LOL..you support the fascist

I'm happy to defend the rule of law and democracy

You probably don't know a single venezuelan and yet you thinks it's ok for Chavez to thwart their democratic rights because you "believe" he's helping the poor

Your heart may be in the right place but you are backing the wrong horse

sooner or later you will realize this

[AP]

324. There's nothing wrong with having legitimate complaints about Chavez.

And debating them reasonably.

But not to realize who's behind the opposition, and where they want to take VZ is either wilfull ignornance, total mypoia, or cooperation (with or without comprehension), or some combination of all of those things.

I feel very sad for you regardless of which is the case. And I feel sad that people who think like you get to chose the direction VZ will take, rather that the vast majority of VZs who suffer and are finally getting a chance to get a country where a real democracy can take root.

[hellhathnofury]

311. Wow.

Best post of this entire thread.

[windansea]

312. I kinda liked it too

:toast:

[Rochambeau]

314. About "The Battle of Algiers"

the movie was banned because it shows what the different governments of France, what FRANCE didn't want to see !! It shows that the post WWII France psychologicaly rebuilt on the "Resistance" spirit was absolutly able to act like the german occupation forces in France ! Imagine that now in 2004 the "torture and war crimes" subject is still very "hot" in France, so when the movie came out...

But Mobuto is right on a point, the battle of Algiers was certainly a victory for the French Army...just like the Tet offensive repulse and many other battles were victories for the US Army in Viet Nam...and so what? To win a battle in war that CAN'T be won is useless especialy if you lose your soul in that victory ! The battle of Algiers and the Algerian War even if finally the French Army have never been defeated and even if the French Army won that war on the military field is defenetly the coffin of the post WWII France spirit, the coffin of the "Patry of Human Rights France". This is why that movie was banned and this why the Algerian War is STILL a bleeding wound in France NOW. Mirror, mirror please don't show me what I am really....a damn f***ng imperialist bitch.

[Judi Lynn]

315. Glad you brought up the movie

I have just finished printing out the script (93 pages) for the "Battle of Algiers" so I can have a sense of it before seeing the movie for THE FIRST TIME.

It can be located here:
http://home.online.no/~bhundlan/scripts/The-Battle-of-Algiers.htm

If I hadn't seen this thread, and read the discussion between AP and 9215, I would have lost out on an important look into a subject I need to know a lot more about.

I appreciate your comments greatly.

[AP]

321. That's one of the things that makes DU great.

[AP]

322. Here's a great scene in the movie (scene 111)

111 PREFECT'S OFFICE. PRESS HALL. INSIDE. DAY. FEBRUARY 25.

Ben M'Hidi is standing in front of the journalists with handcuffs on
his wrists and ankles. He is without a tie. He is smiling a little, his
glance ironical. There are two paras behind him with machine guns
ready. The picture is still for an instant; Ben M'Hidi's smile is
steady, so too his eyes, his entire face. Flashes, clicking of cameras.

1ST JOURNALIST
Mr. Ben M'Hidi ... Don't you think it is
a bit cowardly to use your women's baskets
and handbags to carry explosive devices
that kill so many innocent people?

Ben M'Hidi shrugs his shoulders in his usual manner and smiles a
little.

BEN M'HIDI
And doesn't it seem to you even more
cowardly to drop napalm bombs on unarmed
villages, so that there are a thousand
times more innocent victims? Of course,
if we had your airplanes it would be a lot
easier for us. Give us your bombers, and
you can have our baskets.

2ND JOURNALIST
Mr. Ben M'Hidi ... in your opinion, has
the NLF any chance to beat the French
army?

BEN M'HIDI
In my opinion, the NLF has more chances
of beating the French army than the
French have to stop history.

The press hall in the prefect's office is crowded with journalists of
every nationality. At the side and central aisles there are
photographers and cameramen.

Ben M'Hidi is opposite them, standing on a low wooden platform. Mathieu
is next to him, seated behind a small desk. Mathieu now gets up, and
signals to two paratroopers. Another journalist simultaneously has
asked another question:

3RD JOURNALIST
Mr. Ben M'Hidi, Colonel Mathieu has said
that you have been arrested by accident,
practically by mistake. In fact, it seems
that the paratroopers were looking for
someone much less important than yourself.
Can you tell us why you were in that
apartment at rue Debussy last night?

The two paras have moved forward and they take Ben M'Hidi by the arms.
At the same time, he answers.

BEN M'HIDI
I can only tell you that it would have
been better if I had never been there ...

MATHIEU
(intervening)
That's enough, gentlemen. It's late, and
we all have a lot of work ...

Ben M'Hidi glances at him ironically.

BEN M'HIDI
Is the show already over?

MATHIEU
(smiling)
Yes, it's over ... before it becomes
self-defeating.

The paras lead Ben M'Hidi away. He moves away with short steps, as much
as he can with the irons that are tightened around his ankles. Mathieu
has turned to the journalists and smiles again.

[w4rma]

317. "... pressure from their employers to force them sign the petitions ..."

...
Since last Tuesday, numerous employees of private companies and of opposition-led local governments have been denouncing pressure from their employers to force them sign the petitions against President Chavez.



Card used by anti-Chavez employers to make sure their employees sign the petitions to request a recall referendum on the President. Fingerprints and ID numbers are requested.

Orlando Chirino, leader of the National Workers Union (Unión Nacional de Trabajadores - UNT), denounced that employees of the local Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola companies, as well as those of food processor Alfonso Rivas & Co. have been ordered to sign the petitions. According to Chirino and other independent claims, absentee ballots have been taken to workplaces to force employees to stamp their signatures. Chirino filed a formal complaint to the National Electoral Council (CNE).

Workers of the Sinclair Construction Company reported threats of layoffs if they did not provide proof of signing the anti-Chavez petition to the employer.

Telecom company CANTV in Caracas, held a meeting to inform workers of the places where they could sign the anti-Chavez petitions.

Workers at the SoyoMay Company in Maracay also reported that they were asked to provide proof of signature to their employer following the petition drive.

Albis Muñoz, president of the Federation of Chambers of Commerce - FEDECAMARAS, made a public call to all Venezuelans to sign against Chavez in order to save their jobs. Muñoz argues that Chavez’s bad policies cause unemployment. The two previous FEDECAMARAS presidents, which includes ex-dictator Pedro Carmona are current fugitives of justice.
...
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1115

[windansea]

318. and

The thirteenth victim of the repression of the Government was named Juan Carlos Zambrano who died on Wednesday as a result of the injuries the military inflicted on him by members of the Army camp in La Turiaca, in the Lagunillas municipality in Zulia State. His concubine Yeicy Vasquez was raped and abused by the soldiers and was threatened with death if she denounced what had happened to her.

Zambrano’s mother said her son worked picking up aluminum cans from the streets to sell them, not exactly what Chávez would call an oligarch. She said she was at the army camp while her son was being tortured. They would hit him and throw him on the floor, while they all stepped on him. They would give him water and then hit him with a bat on the stomach. They tied his hands and dragged him on the asphalt. She said she asked them to stop and they laughed at her. The military claims they detained him because he stole a motor from an oil well.

He was freed and died later in the Hospital. General Carlos Briceno of the 11t Brigade has confirmed that Zambrano was a prisoner, but the information he had was that Zambrano had signed a document in which he said that he was treated well while in captivity. Zambrano’s mother said that her other son Michel was also detained that day and is missing. Michel went out that day looking for his brother.

Besides Michel Zambrano, there are still seven people desaparecidos from the protests whose names are: Omar Arturo Morales (28); Juan José Pérez (27); Juan Ernesto Sánchez (37); Andrés Bastidas Guedes (32) ; José Luis Rodríguez (33); Eduardo José Miranda (30) y Julio César Gómez (34). They are believed to be dead since they were detained simultaneusly. The Investigative police has begun looking into the case and is the only Government body that has said anything about them according to page B-23 of today’s El Nacional (by subscription).

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/