U.S. official resigns over Afghan war

[theHandpuppet]

Source: The Washington Post

U.S. official resigns over Afghan war
Foreign Service officer and former Marine captain says he no longer knows why his nation is fighting
By Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 27, 2009

When Matthew Hoh joined the Foreign Service early this year, he was exactly the kind of smart civil-military hybrid the administration was looking for to help expand its development efforts in Afghanistan.

A former Marine Corps captain with combat experience in Iraq, Hoh had also served in uniform at the Pentagon, and as a civilian in Iraq and at the State Department. By July, he was the senior U.S. civilian in Zabul province, a Taliban hotbed.

But last month, in a move that has sent ripples all the way to the White House, Hoh, 36, became the first U.S. official known to resign in protest over the Afghan war, which he had come to believe simply fueled the insurgency.

"I have lost understanding of and confidence in the strategic purposes of the United States' presence in Afghanistan," he wrote Sept. 10 in a four-page letter to the department's head of personnel. "I have doubts and reservations about our current strategy and planned future strategy, but my resignation is based not upon how we are pursuing this war, but why and to what end."

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/26/AR2009102603394.html?hpid=topnews

[Sebastian Doyle]

1. Let this be the first of many

We need to end this bullshit occupation now.

[sazemisery]

2. Hopefully, the tide is turning. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

3. So he fought in Iraq, and that was just dandy......

but now, he's protesting.

OK.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

7. Maybe finally.... a light just went on.

It takes a while for some soldiers who just can't believe their country
could be involved in things that are wrong.

[theHandpuppet]

10. Yep... from reading the article

It appears this journey of his took many twists and turns, even a struggle with PTSD.

[LiberalLovinLug]

85. So its coincidence that its under Obama and not Bush?

"the vast right wing conspiracy" is still working hard. From one direction they hit Obama with every fear mongering gossip, real or imagined, from birthers to tea baggers. But they also take advantage of the left's growing annoyance with his bending over to the right. While on one hand they send in Darth Vader to call him 'weak' and 'waffling' to help turn more pro war moderate/righties away from him, this move by this officer will also help turn more anti-war lefties away from him, if he continues his call for more action in Afghanistan, in spite of resignations. (just look at posts in this thread)

Maybe he is finally coming around to see the light, but I tend to be a little skeptical of the timing.

[humbled_opinion]

96. Well lets see now I do follow your point....

However, we are at a cross roads as we speak. If Obama choses to add more meat to the grinder then he should be held accountable.

If on the other hand Obama choses to end the occupation and bring our forces out of the hell hole that is slowly destroying America both financially and by taking the lives of our bravest, then he becomes a strong and decisive leader. (Afghanistan is "The destroyer of Empires")

Of course politically he will be attacked on either decision just as he is being attacked for rendering no decision at present. Sometimes Leaders must really walk the talk that is what is being asked of Obama at this time may he step up to the plate and hit this grand slam homer just waiting for him.

[EFerrari]

32. I'm glad this Marine is going home in one piece. Aren't you?

[frylock]

41. my brother fought in iraq and also fought in afghanistan..

he was a company man, through and through. 3 years away from 20 years in. he was completely jaded by his last tour. people have epiphanies. stop taking everything so personal and making excuses for Obama. we are accomplishing NOTHING over there. nothing.

[ChiciB1]

45. Thanks For Posting This About Your Brother... I Remember It Took A Long

time in Viet Nam, and many of my friends were drafted and died. I was raised an Army brat and my father told me way back in in about 1970 that the WAR MUST STOP!

He was what one would consider a "lifer" but he finally began to speak out, and he made me PROUD!!

Glad to see some speaking out now!

[IndianaGreen]

55. John Kerry fought in Vietnam and then turned against the war

Are the warmongers that support Obama's Afghan quagmire going to wear purple band aids now?

[YvonneCa]

69. Who are the 'warmongers' of which...

...you speak?

[IndianaGreen]

71. Those that want to continue to wage this useless and wasteful war

from both parties.

[wisteria]

83. No band aids, but Senator Kerry stills sees a need for a limited presence there.

I agree with him. I know he would not be saying this unless he truly believed it was important to stay.

[wisteria]

82. Good point. Iraq was fine with him, but not Afghanistan? n/t

[Bjorn Against]

98. "Was" is past tense, do you have any evidence that he still supports the Iraq war?

People do change their minds, especially after they see the horrors of war with their own eyes. I am closely involved in the peace movement and many of our most active participants are veterans.

[wisteria]

103. I could not find a thing on Hou speaking out against the Iraq War.

He waits until he has a position in which he could actually make a difference in Afghanistan and then he changes his mind? Find me something in which he spoke out against a real mess- the Iraq War and maybe I will change my mind. But, I doubt you will and I don't buy this big change of heart now. The guy is TV ready.

[Bjorn Against]

104. The guy did not even have a Wikipedia page until today

I think you would have a hard time finding any information on this guy that was not just put up today, just because you haven't seen any reports of him speaking out against Iraq doesn't mean he hasn't. You are the one alleging that he supported the Iraq War up to this day so you are the one that has to back that statement up.

And for your information, both Iraq and Afghanistan are huge messes. Today it became official that more Americans were killed in Afghanistan this month than any month since the war began, this war is a disaster and it needs to end now.

[Bjorn Against]

97. Ever hear of IVAW?

It stands for Iraq Veterans Against the War, I have marched alongside them many times because I think it is great to see veterans speaking out.

[barbtries]

4. if the soldiers said no,

there could be no war.

[The Court Jester]

5. An interesting bit of history

Years ago, I had a friend tell me about an incident that happened in WW1. On Christmas day, the soldiers from Germany on one side, and the US and England on the other side, declared a truce for the day, came out of their trenches and played soccer with each other. After that day, they refused to fight each other until the leadership of each side brought in new troops.

I found that fascinating.

[barbtries]

8. i never heard that story.

but i have a recurring fantasy in which the soldiers simply refuse.

[edwardian]

20. War is hell.

Hell on earth. Soldiers become demons, then demons come home.

[cliffordu]

62. Are your eyes brown?? You are so full of shit they must be.

[AlbertCat]

75. So....war is not hell? Soldiers are not trained to just take orders and kill the enemy?

Your eyes must be white because you are blind.


Thank the fathers we have soldiers because we really really need them. It's a shame to "waste" them and their talents on wars for oil and oil pipe lines.

[cliffordu]

95. It's a shame you seem to think those of us that served are demons.

[edwardian]

21. The refusal

needs to begin with the parents that bore the child that will become the soldier. To preach any form of violence is to become the recipient of its consequences. War will end when we refuse to let anyone go to war except in actual defense of ones country, ie; actual domestic territories. The wars America has been fighting for the last 40 years have all been WRONG!!! Afghanistan will mark the end of these fiascos, likely. Afghanistan is not known as "the graveyard of empires" for nothing. Furthermore, as far as the Taliban are concerned, they have been fighting for hundreds of years and are not likely to give up to anyone.


Teach your children well...

[Grinchie]

102. Actually, you are channeling Gandhi

It's really not so hard for people to actually become Human and learn that we are all composed of the same material, forged in the heart of an exploding star, long before the Sun was a swirling speck of dust...

There is a good reason why Gandhi was assasinated, and that was because his message was so simple, yet so powerful, that the powers that be could not afford to let him live.

The same goes for Martin Luther King. People just need to stop willingly supporting the parasites that has taught us to not recognize our inherant power.

[bulloney]

9. It just shows you the brainwashing and villifying that goes on with the military.

You have to hate the people you're going against, otherwise there's no desire to kill and destroy.

I'm not saying there's never justification to take military action, but I've found that the military's lifeblood is propaganda and fear.

[Canuckistanian]

23. Here's a good version of what happened

It's an amazing story.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/christmastruce.htm

[BridgeTheGap]

26. They made a movie about this - Joyeux Noel - pretty good flick - link

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0424205/

[Blue_Tires]

28. i was about to post that...great great film....

[happyslug]

31. That is the Christmas truce of 1914, the US was Neutral at that time so NOT involved.

It was informal truce by all accounts, done by the Soldiers in the trenches themselves. The Pope had proposed such a truce, but all the belligerents had rejected that idea, but somebody forgot to tell the troops. Anyway, never occurred afterward mostly because the Allies gave orders to their Artillery to drop shells on the German lines all day long during the Christmases of 1915, 1916 and 1917.

For more see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce
http://history1900s.about.com/od/1910s/a/christmastruce.htm
http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/truce.asp
http://www.fylde.demon.co.uk/xmas.htm

[gatorboy]

34. Somewhat true account of the event. here are the details.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/christmastruce.htm

[RufusTFirefly]

39. That bit of history was made into a pretty good movie

... although it wasn't the Americans. It was the French, the Scots, and the Germans.

[Sebastian Doyle]

47. Garth Brooks wrote a song about that on his Xmas album

called "Belleau Wood".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2505081926071475613#

[dana_b]

63. wow

that's a great story! Once you see the other side as human and not so different, it's hard to fight them.

Was your friend related to someone who experienced that?

[valerief]

66. I imagine war (from the soldier's viewpoint) isn't about hating as much as it's about

following orders. Submission to the orders. Relinquishing will.

That's how you get people to buy SUVs, too.

[tomg]

93. That actually happened in 1914, and

then again, on a more limited scale in 1915. It was principally between British and German soldiers, and after even the limited Christmas "truce" of 1915, the respective high commands were so taken aback by the idea of human beings who had no logical reason to be shooting at each other simply refusing to do so on a particular day that they threatened to court martial any soldiers involved in later "truces." I found out about this when I was reading David Jones' remarkable epic poem n World War I, In Parenthesis, probabky the most important work of art to come out of the First World War.

on edit: got my dates wrong. Sorry.

[WarhammerTwo]

106. More info on this great story:

http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/truce.asp

On Edit: Sorry. Just noticed someone else already posted this link.

[Le Taz Hot]

25. De ja vu.

There was a saying in the 1960's: "What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

Sorry. I digress. Carry on. :hi:

[nyc 4 Biden]

29. I think a great many soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen serving today...

...are doing so partly because of the difficulties in finding jobs stateside. The military is an employer of last resort for many who otherwise cannot find employment. Refusing to fight means refusing to support your family back home. I'm not saying it's right or wrong just gray.

[barbtries]

52. i agree,

and i don't think it's an accident that it's come to this. how much does this country spend on the MIC compared to what it spends on educating its citizens? it's rapidly approaching the day when only rich kids will be able to be educated well enough to have options that don't necessarily include a stint in the army.

since at least Reagan this has been going on and as i said, i don't think it's an accident. these are our children, and those raised without all the advantages are nothing to the MIC but bodies to throw at their fucking wars. chattel. assets. i don't think they even think of them as human beings. witness stop-loss and the general neglect of the troops, not to mention the fucking WARS.

and i despise that!! my son graduates high school next year. how the hell am i going to get him through college??? he casually mentions he's gonna join the military and i take it as a not so passive form of aggression toward me. he doesn't even appreciate that i cannot take it as a joke and i'd rather move him out of the US than to see him in the military at this point in time, when the USA is involved in these horribly wrong wars of aggression, killing people who even if they want to have no realistic way of posing a threat to us.

he will be 18 years old in May. if he enlists there will be nothing i can do personally to change it. in the meantime he gets an earful on a regular basis about why he just can't do that!

sorry if i don't make sense you touched a nerve but i'm at work.

[IndianaGreen]

57. It is also true that they are serving at great risk while people here go on without a care

Shame on the politicians that send our troops to no-win situations like Afghanistan.

[YvonneCa]

70. Who are the 'politicians'of which you...

...speak?

[IndianaGreen]

72. Here is a sample...

Bush and Gephardt at Rose Garden, October 2, 2002.



The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are bipartisan wars.

[pocoloco]

43. Dildo knew how to stop a war.....

by saying no!

[No Elephants]

111. Yes, but then the military would be in charge of the CIC, not the other way around.Blaiming

the military is unfair, IMO, especially the young 'uns.

[Paper Roses]

6. Let us hope this is the beginning of the end.

We cannot keep up this foolishness, Americans need help at home.

Stop all wars now.

[wroberts189]

11. Obama... get us out of there. PLEASE. nt

[Wizard777]

14. That would be a decision that would haunt him and us eternally.

[wroberts189]

19. It already is I am sure.. nt

[Wizard777]

12. Oh how quickly he forgets 9/11 and the 3,066 dead.

This guy is nothing more than a GOP Operative. How do we know this? He turned down the job offer on a position in which he could effect real change in policy. But he turned it down so he could just piss, whine, moan, groan and complain instead. If that isn't a Republican. I don't know what is.

[bread_and_roses]

16. Maybe he started to think that incinerating and dismembering children is no way to prevent

another 9/11. Real change in policy? one pretty low-level civilian? right. Bet that's what the guys at Nestle, some years ago, who were selling baby formula to mothers who had no access to clean water told themselves too, when the occasional pang of guilt over the infants dead from water-bourne disease troubled their brains - I'm sure they made up some such justification for keeping their jobs. "Change from the inside" is rarely anything but an excuse for the status quo.

And I don't think the children we're burning alive and blowing to bits in Afhanistan had anything to do with 9/11.

[pjt7]

49. The article mentions he watched "Rescue Me"

maybe,some of the 9.11 questions that one of the characters ask.. woke him up to what REALLY happened to our Country?

Either way, this is good news for the World & I'm glad he's meeting with Biden.

[frylock]

42. invoking 911 to squelch any dissent is pretty damn republican

[Flaneur]

53. You're smearing a man who is sacrificing much for his stance.

To paint him as a Republican because you don't like what he did is just low.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flaneur]

87. This is a war effort that needs to be demoralized. And ended.

It's a fruitless imperial war. Al Qaeda isn't there. All we're doing is stirring up more hatred. For someone who worries about another terrorist attack on this county, you might want to quit pissing off a third of the world. But no, get your war jollies on.

[Wizard777]

Afghanistan is the best staging ground for the real fight in Pakistan.

Little Boy killed 140,000 people in Hiroshima. Fat Man killed 80,000 in Nagasaki. That was just the deaths from the initial blast. Then you have collateral deaths from radiation sickness and cancers. Today's nukes make Little Boy and Fat Man look like fire crackers. You would not want to live in a world with a nuclear capable Al Qaida. They will not use them in a conventional way. They will use them in a holy shit that's just freakin' insane kind of way. We've already seen what they can do in the abstract with airplanes. I don't want to see what they can do with a nuclear bomb. What if they combine the two? Send a nuke up in a plane to detonate it as close to the stratosphere as they can get. Wipe out all the power grids and computers. Now your house is little better than their cave. One day without all your electric luxuries and you will want Obama's head on a silver platter for taking your advice and pulling out of Afghanistan. These are bad men and they aren't just going to go away because we do. I would rather fuel the insurgency with a constant barrage than fuel their international network by pulling out. If we don't take the fight to them. They will bring the fight to us.

[AntiFascist]

105. Talk about Republican rhetoric...

remember "mushroom clouds on the horizon"?

[Wizard777]

110. I hope you don't seriously think that can never happen.

Bush was barking up the wrong tree with that on Iraq. Pakistan is the tree he should have been barking up on that.

[AntiFascist]

113. We need to crack down on the corruption...

Pakistan is also where much of the corruption in nuclear proliferation has occurred with respect to AQ Khan. When politicos and CIA are selling out to the highest bidder, it certainly doesn't make matters any better.

[Wizard777]

90. Dupe. I guess the greater powers that be felt that needed to be said twice.

[liberation]

77. Projecting much dude?

Usually I tend to associate with GOP operatives the usage of 9/11 and the victims to further a cheap political point, like you just did.

Congratulations, I guess.

[Wizard777]

79. When the next 9/11 happens and everyone is watching a city or two being destroyed by nukes.

You want Obama to be the guy that gave up the fight to prevent that? I want better than that for America and him. We don't want to be the party that allowed Al Qaida to gain control of Pakistan's nukes. It's really that simple.

[Flaneur]

88. You're suffering from fever dreams. And war creep.

Al Qaeda has zero chance of gaining control over Pakistan's nuclear capability.

But we have managed to kill somewhere between 300 and 500 Pakistanis with drone missile strikes under Obama. Some of them were militants, many were not. Maybe that kid whose father and mother we blew up is going to come after us. Would you blame him?

[Wizard777]

91. If there is a democrat within a hundred miles of that Kid. No he won't come after us.

If he dies you all will just demand he go home and forget about his Dead. There will be no justice for them. Hey why don't we run with that idea? They helped kill 3,066 innocent American civilians. LET GO GET THEM BASTARDS! If that kid comes to America to attack us. It will be because he's sure there will be no retaliation. Americans are too cowardice to fight for what's right.

[No Elephants]

112. 911 was an Afghani operation?

[Jester Messiah]

13. The man has a point.

What specific goals are we trying to accomplish over there, anyway? Seems like all we do is hang our soldiers out to get shot at for no clear gain. If there's a job still to be done, then get it the hell done already and bring them home!

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnie624]

65. Thanks for the link.

But be aware that website is deemed unacceptable to the Administrators of DU. Apparently there have been complaints of bigotry by some posters. I've never seen any personally, but that's the charge.

I'm glad I saw your message before it is deleted.

[JohnnyLib2]

17. Deja vu -- the late 60s.

:banghead:

[Vidar]

18. Good for Hoh.

[wroberts189]

22. America ..only country on earth where we forget our past in 5-10 minutes.

Unlike others who hold grudges for centuries.


Strange world.

[Soylent Brice]

24. i can only imagine how many that are still active duty are wondering the same thing.

K&R

[Barack_America]

27. With all due respect, we have more purpose in Afghanistan than we ever had in Iraq...

...where he served without protest.

But, in any case, he did see the war in Afghanistan through a different perspective (i.e. being a ranking official). I agree with Hoh that our purpose in Afghanistan has run its course.

[bdamomma]

30. to me Afghanistan is a lost cause, forget about so called "winning"

what makes the officials think we are going to "win" this war, when in history invaders have never won in Afghanistan, just a waste of human life. Our troops need to come home we have been there for 8 years already.

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. It's called mission drift.

Our purpose in Afghanistan - our ONLY purpose in Afghanistan - was to get the people responsible for 9/11. We abandoned that mission at Tora Bora when we let the remnants of Al Queda escape with Bin Laden and Mullah Omar.

At that point the Taliban was shattered, their leadership was on the run, and if we were NOT going after Bin Laden we should have ended military actions and concentrated on rebuilding the Afghan infrastructure so they would not have a place to come back to, or we should have left.

Unless the new administration is going to re-focus on Al Queda and Bin Laden, we have no business there. As despicable as the Taliban might be, they are not the people we went there to settle with. Getting tied up in a valley-by-valley insurgency is NOT our mission there.

[Myrina]

36. +10

:)

[mike_c]

38. the only mission there ever was in Afghanistan...

...was a national spasm of revenge killings directed against the wrong people after 9/11. Americans wanted to kill as many brown, muslim people as possible, and Afghanistan was where OBL chose to hide out, so bombing and killing tens of thousands of Afghans-- despite the circumstance that they had zero actual involvement in the 9/11 attacks, and offered to hand OBL over to a third party for investigation-- makes perfect sense, right? :sarcasm:

[Lasher]

59. That is a sound assessment.

Obama should get some credit in that respect. He has at least been trying to come up with a policy and hopefully a clear mission objective. This is in sharp contrast with a distinct lack of either during the conflict's 7 years druing the Bush administration.

Long ago al Qaida escaped to Pakistan, as you said, where they stayed with relative impunity during all the Bush years. Obama said during the campaign he would bring pressure on al Qaida in Pakistan. He has, and those havens are not quite as safe as they once were.

Now Obama's critics complain because he's not cleaning up Bush's mess in Afghanistan fast enough. Matthew Hoh is helping them, with no mention of Tora Bora or the 7 wasted years under Bush. Quite the contrary, he has this to say about the conterproductive mission in Iraq:

"There are plenty of dudes who need to be killed," he said of al-Qaeda and the Taliban. "I was never more happy than when our Iraq team whacked a bunch of guys."

It will be interesting to see what career path unfolds now for Hoh.

[Plucketeer]

60. No one seems interested in asking for John McCain's advice!

I keep saying this and no one seems to wanna run with it. Remember back during the '08 race for the White House???
Repeatedly, candidate McCain professed that if elected president, he'd immediately direct the military as to how to get Bin Laden! I distinctly remember his saying: "I know how to do it, folks!"
Even at that time, it seemed a bit less than patriotic to be holding back such a tactical gem when troops were dying every day for want of this important facet of a "win". Now that the elections are a year behind us - without McCain in the oval office - I want to know why McCain hasn't shared this strategic secret with our military. That they haven't scored Bin Laden seems to suggest that Jet Jock Johnny is holding out on us. I guess if we'd have elected him, the troops would be well on their way to getting out.

I'm for having a strong military (not so much the crusader force that was fashioned under Bush's leadership - "Bush's leadership" - an oxymoran in itself), but ten-year wars with NO visible "Victory" in sight? We're swinging like a bad-ass boxer with both eyes swollen shut!

[bdamomma]

64. mission drift for eight years.

[dana_b]

67. well said

It sounds like they don't KNOW what their mission is anymore. Bring 'em home and help Afghanistan rebuild.

[mikelgb]

33. Finish Cheney's pipeline and you can all come home.

[harun]

37. Courage from Hoh. Time to change course.

[bleedinglib]

40. Disobedience to authority??

This past weekend I attended a gun show at which there were about 3 to 4 thousand Obama haters. Aside from the usual b.s. about liberals trying to take away their guns, I heard something new that is disturbing.
After reading the article about Captain Hoh, it fits in with the mis-information these wing nuts are spreading?
It seems there is an underground campaign to get our troops to refuse to obey orders from President Obama? If you have family or friends in the military, tell them about what Obama is trying to do. You see, if he doesn't have guns behind him, he can't take over the country and turn us all into Commies?
There is no doubt in my mind that any one of those good American citizens would, without hesitation, pull the trigger on President Obama.
IGNORANCE IS A TERRIBLE THING?
I strongly agree that we need to get out of Afghanistan and let them continue on with their war.
BLESSED ARE THE PEACE MAKERS




.


-~

[erpowers]

44. Things Still Can Be Done

I think are some things that can be done in Afghanistan. It seems that a number of things Mr. Kob said in his resignation letter can be fixed. The United States has and can try to push for a less corrupt government in Afghanistan. It is very possible that Hamid Karzai will be kicked out of office. The U.S. government can try to work to build infrastructure in the country. In addition, in areas in which the people do not like outsiders there can be an effort to help local individuals to build and rebuild communities. In addition, both civilians and military personnel can be trained in a better way in order to better do their job. In terms of the Pashtun area and the Afghanistan Army, it is possible that the government could recruit individuals from that area a allow them to police the Pashtun area.

[orbitalman]

46. I remember the ORIGINAL intent

In hot pursuit of Osama bin Laden. Why has this morphed into needing 40,000 more troops? How many of our soldiers does it take to catch ONE man?? I believe it's the hawks AND republicans who are feeding off this war. Iran might be considered a backup as far as they are concerned.

[Sebastian Doyle]

48. 40,000 more troops wouldn't help that either

Unless they know how to go to Hell and bring back a dead man.

[IndianaGreen]

74. Some of us argued for a more measured response to 9-11, similar to Israel's response

to the Munich massacre. We were savaged on this board.

[BREMPRO]

50. His words say a lot about his character

"I'm not some peacenik, pot-smoking hippie who wants everyone to be in love," Hoh said. Although he said his time in Zabul was the "second-best job I've ever had," his dominant experience is from the Marines, where many of his closest friends still serve.

"There are plenty of dudes who need to be killed," he said of al-Qaeda and the Taliban. "I was never more happy than when our Iraq team whacked a bunch of guys."


I was NEVER more HAPPY than when our Iraq team WHACKED a bunch of GUYS"?

Questions remain about our role in Afghanistan, i'm not sure we should be their either, but i wouldn't put much stock in this guy's resignation. Also remember Bush/Cheney ignored Afghanistan for 8 years while they engaged in war crimes and profiteering in Iraq. Most analysts are saying we are basically starting from scratch in Afghanistan because of the neglect by the Bush team, and that the real concern is the growing threat over the border in nuclear armed Pakistan.

[earcandle]

51. Lullaby for Hamza: Robert Wyatt cover

This song whispers how frightening this must be for the children of war.

Lullaby for Hamza

We really must stop and rethink the war, crime and disease industries that make fodder of human life
just to put some bucks in psychotic people's pockets.

[pleah]

54. K&R

[lovuian]

56. this is reality hitting the Military, and NWO group

if the US military men and women quit fighting for this lost cause
they will lose more and more

this is a Vietnam repeat
its all about the opium trade


We need to get out of there and we need to get out of Iraq

this country doesn't have a air force or a navy

and we are still losing
our hearts are not in it

[samsingh]

58. where was his resignation when bush started the mess and illegal wars?

[IndianaGreen]

73. Where were you when the Democrats kissed Bush's ass on the war?

Bush and Gephardt at Rose Garden, October 2, 2002.

[paparush]

61. Limbaugh was spinning this like crazy today. Made me sick.

This general resigned because he knows we do not have a cohesive strategy and because the President is sending mixed signals..blah blah blah. I wanted to rip my radio out of my dash.

[wisteria]

84. Well there you go, this is exactly what I said a little further down.

This guy should have been ignored. He is after attention and the RW are more than willing to supply it with a little help from some of us here. I bet he will be all over Fox News. Makes me wonder if he was loyal to this administration at all. He never had any complaints about the Iraq War even though that was a quagmire with no end, but now he has major problems with Afghanistan?

[YvonneCa]

89. Do you need any ...

...help? :7

[paparush]

92. Thanks, but I vented my frustration by writing the Oxycotin King a strongly worded email.

:-)

[YvonneCa]

94. Thank goodness for the 'strongly worded email'...

...option. I've written a few of those myself during the last eight years. :7

[SandWalker1984]

68. Ron Paul - saving face & losing lives (great questions)

Excellent commentary by Ron Paul..........

Saving Face and Losing Lives
antiwar.com

by Rep. Ron Paul, October 14, 2009

This past week there has been a lot of discussion and debate on the continuing war in Afghanistan. Lasting twice as long as World War II and with no end in sight, the war in Afghanistan has been one of the longest conflicts in which our country has ever been involved. The situation has only gotten worse with recent escalations.
The current debate is focused entirely on the question of troop levels.

How many more troops should be sent over in order to pursue the war? The administration has already approved an additional 21,000 American service men and women to be deployed by November, which will increase our troop levels to 68,000.

Will another 40,000 do the job? Or should we eventually build up the levels to 100,000 in addition to that? Why not 500,000 – just to be "safe"? And how will the public be brought back around to supporting this war again when 58 percent are now against it?

I get quite annoyed at this very narrow line of questioning. I have other questions. We overthrew the Taliban government in 2001 with less than 10,000 American troops. Why does it now seem that the more troops we send, the worse things get?

If the Soviets bankrupted themselves in Afghanistan with troop levels of 100,000 and were eventually forced to leave in humiliating defeat, why are we determined to follow their example?

Most importantly, what is there to be gained from all this? We’ve invested billions of dollars and thousands of precious lives – for what?

The truth is it is no coincidence that the more troops we send the worse things get. Things are getting worse precisely because we are sending more troops and escalating the violence. We are hoping that good leadership wins out in Afghanistan, but the pool of potential honest leaders from which to draw has been fleeing the violence, leaving a tremendous power vacuum behind. War does not quell bad leaders. It creates them. And the more war we visit on this country, the more bad leaders we will inadvertently create.

Another thing that war does is create anger with its indiscriminate violence and injustice. How many innocent civilians have been harmed from clumsy bombings and mistakes that end up costing lives? People die from simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time in a war zone, but the killers never face consequences. Imagine the resentment and anger survivors must feel when a family member is killed and nothing is done about it. When there are no other jobs available because all the businesses have fled, what else is there to do but join ranks with the resistance, where there is a paycheck and also an opportunity for revenge? This is no justification for our enemies over there, but we have to accept that when we push people, they will push back.

The real question is: why are we there at all? What do our efforts now have to do with the original authorization of the use of force? We are no longer dealing with anything or anyone involved in the attacks of 9/11. At this point we are only strengthening the resolve and the ranks of our enemies. We have nothing left to win. We are only there to save face, and in the end we will not even be able to do that.

[LiberalLovinLug]

109. Paul is right on

when it comes to imperialist warmongering. A very well written piece.

but he'd be the first to filibuster any "socialist" universal healthcare bill.

[Postman]

76. Because as everyone knows, anyone who advocates sanity must be a "pot-smoking hippie peacenik"

His asinine statement is proof to me that he has no idea how people against this war and the war in Iraq are mainstream folks....

The assumption on his part that to take a stand for peace, based on the fact that the war and occupation is immoral and wrong, is to embrace the ideology of "pot-smoking hippie peaceniks" is insulting and shows his lack of understanding history and his susceptibility to conventional wisdom propaganda.

I'm wondering why he didn't mention the spitting on of returning soldiers....

[Wizard777]

80. I'm a pot-smoking hippie peacenik and I think we need to stay.

The real fight will be in Pakistan. Unstable Pakistani Government + Al Qaida + Nukes = STAY

[Bjorn Against]

99. If you want to stay in Afghanistan and then go to war with Pakistan you are no peacenik.

[Liberation Angel]

100. +1

nt

[spanza]

114. STAY = Pak govt more unstable + Taleban influence growing

The taleban islamists don't even imagine being able to see the nukes. Islamist parties represent 10-15% of the Pakistani electorate and even if the current government falls, the army is the backbone of the country. So maybe the issue is not so much about the nukes.

[jakeXT]

86. No. 1 on the empire high score, btw it looks like a neocon wants to run against him

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-17-2009/the-unwinnable-war-in-afghanistan

“It is time for Ron Paul to step down and step aside so he can pursue his own interests while a new statesman emerges to represent the district,” Graney said. “I told him so Sunday afternoon.”

Graney went on to say that Paul’s Libertarian leanings are not consistent with the beliefs of residents in the district.

“I am a fiscal conservative, but I do not support Ron Paul’s weak foreign policy views, nor do I support his do whatever you want ultra-Libertarian views that conflict with our American values,” Graney said.

http://www.fortbendnow.com/2009/10/26/41697

[wisteria]

81. One man with one opinion. Ripples? I doubt it.

Maybe he doesn't understand why we are still there because he hasn't bothered to find out what is at stake.
You just know the RW will seize upon this and twist it to mean something else- like he has no trust in the administration. How can he know what our strategy will be and what the end game is before these decisions have even been finalized.
I say this guy sees an opportunity to start a crusade and make a little money, that is why he resigned.

[Grinchie]

101. Very well written piece of Propaganda -- Yes Propaganda.

First of all, this story is very well written and is explained in a gentle thoughtful manner. It presents the reality of Afghanistan is such a way as the reader is able to identify with the horrors that Hoh describes, as well as point out why Afghanistan is a quagmire of epic proportions.

While I agree with the general angle, I am insulted that the Administration see's the need to present this Propaganda to the American public in order to prepare them for the inevitable withdrawl of Military forces from Afghanistan.

Instead of coming out and honestly admitting that the U.S. is Bankrupt and cannot afford these expeditions any more, only to save the face of the Military Industrial Complex. Oh no, being insolvent isn't a good enough reason to withdraw, nor is the will of the people enough to force the Administration to withdraw. Nope, we have to get a puff piece written and disseminated to the Washington Post to coerce the general population into accepting the inevitable, but for a misdirected reason, and not the real reasons, which were all frauds to begin with.

If you don't see my point of view, just take a look at what they did to Lt. Watada when he refused to deploy to Iraq. Was he any different than Hoh, other than being a peon that the Previous Administration decided to destroy?

Wake up an smell the PsyOps.

[ClayZ]

107. Sir, No Sir!

http://www.sirnosir.com/


K and R

[earth mom]

108. Glad to see this isn't be unrecced all to hell. nt