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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:57 PM
Original message
Calif. high court upholds affirmative action ban
Source: Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO — California's high court on Monday upheld the state's 14-year-old law barring preferential treatment of women and minorities in public school admissions, government hiring and contracting.

In a 6-1 ruling, the state Supreme Court rejected arguments from the city of San Francisco and Attorney General Jerry Brown that the law, known as Proposition 209, violates federal equality protections.

Opponents of the ban say it creates barriers for minorities and women that don't exist for other groups, such as veterans seeking preference.

The ruling written by Justice Kathryn Werdegar came in response to lawsuits filed by white contractors challenging San Francisco's affirmative action program, which was suspended in 2003. . .

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gDbeFH_5VchxYWdXyfSCsFzRFXfwD9HBJM600



The sole dissent:

Justice Carlos Moreno dissented, writing that it's unfair to explicitly single out minorities and women while other special groups continue to enjoy preferential treatment in school admissions and elsewhere.

"In the wake of Proposition 209, veterans, the economically disadvantaged, the physically disabled, children of alumni, in-state residents, etc., all may continue to seek, obtain, and benefit from preferential legislation as before," Moreno wrote. "The same is no longer true for those seeking race- and sex-conscious legislation."
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Aah, (persecuted?) whites win again in the War on Equality
"preferential treatment of women and minorities"...of course no one group of people should get preferential treatment. Only MERIT! Problem is, how can you compromise colorblindness and meritocracy? :shrug:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Affirmative action is NOT "preferential treatment" -- but rw propaganda ...
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The Northerner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. Calif. high court upholds affirmative action ban
Source: Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO — California's high court on Monday upheld the state's 14-year-old law barring preferential treatment of women and minorities in public school admissions, government hiring and contracting.

In a 6-1 ruling, the state Supreme Court rejected arguments from the city of San Francisco and Attorney General Jerry Brown that the law, known as Proposition 209, violates federal equality protections.

Opponents of the ban say it creates barriers for minorities and women that don't exist for other groups, such as veterans seeking preference.

The ruling written by Justice Kathryn Werdegar came in response to lawsuits filed by white contractors challenging San Francisco's affirmative action program, which was suspended in 2003.

"As the court recognized, Proposition 209 is a civil rights measure that protects everyone, regardless of background," said Sharon Browne, a lawyer for the Pacific Legal Foundation, which represented the contractors. "Under Proposition 209, no one can be victimized by unfair government policies that discriminate or grant preferences based on sex or skin color."

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gDbeFH_5VchxYWdXyfSCsFzRFXfwD9HBJM600
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Good, affirmative action is just the other side of a very evil coin.
Race and gender shouldn't be consider AT ALL for hiring or college admissions. At best it injecst irrelevant bullshit into the system, at worse it pours more fuel on a racial fire that already burns too brightly in our society.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. i'm not comfortable with it at all
Although for slightly different reasons, it is poison to the credibility of minority or disabled professionals because it leads to the assumption they couldn't have achieved their position on their own merits.
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. ...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thanks. I didn't have the moral energy. n/t
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I always rather liked the first link you have.
Of course, it doesn't say what it's usually reported as saying. In a nutshell it says that racism doesn't cut it, since the interview would yield biased results; that "ethnic" sounding names come from primarily segregated communities, and people from those communities tend to have not so great life outcomes, statistically speaking, and blacks with "ethnic" names vs "mainstream" names come out the same; therefore the apparently overt bias is more a reflection of current inequality where the ethnic-sounding name more often than not has actual importance (as they put it, using the names in this way may be illegal but it also is probably "efficient).

"Underachieving white kids are twice as likely to get into elite colleges as minorities admitted under affirmative action" has a different problem. The title sounds like it's to be taken statistically in a specific way, but the article itself doesn't say that. Teasing out what the numerical relationships are from the article is actually quite problematic because the descriptions used are too ambiguous. It also makes it sound like the underachieving whites and underachieving minorities are similar so the difference must be racism; the two cohorts aren't similar in SES.

As for desegregation, I've never been convinced that segregation of schools was a goal in itself. It was a tool. Some studies have shown various kinds of better outcomes in desegregated schools. Usually those "outcomes" aren't defined as I'd want them defined--how the results are evaluated is based on what results were desired. Eh. It's not the schools, it's the kids; and the kids aren't responsible, the parents are.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
14.  "The parents are".

Right. Minority parents have complete control over administrative decisions in public schools. They do it at night, invisibly, while everyone else is asleep.

lol

It's hilarious that people twist themselves into pretzels trying to discredit Affirmative Action. Their very efforts only illustrate how much it is still needed.



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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. What an odd strawman.
IT'S absurd to think that I could possibly mean that in a community like The Woodlands, mostly white with a very small minority population, that minority parents are in control of the public schools. QED.

Most schoolboards I've seen are tilted white, but if they're majority minority districts the school board has at least a hefty minority representation and can even be all minority. After all, 25% Asian vs. 75% Latino is unlikely to result in ethnically proportional representation any more than a legislature in a state that's 30% black and 70% white would be. Majority rule, the need for representatives to "look like" the voters, and all that.

Still, I'm not speaking of governmental or bureaucratic control, of very much top-down imposition of one's will by governmental force or through regulation. I'm speaking grassroots, thoroughly bottom-up processes. Not everything has to involve government ordering people about. Not everything that is is the result of how government has ordained it shall be.

No, what I meant is that if you have a sucky school you first have sucky students. Yeah, sucky teachers can produce more than their fair share of sucky students. But average teachers usually let good students be good and average students be average. Most teachers are average. New teachers tend to be a bit wobbly, but even then when they do get average classrooms the distribution of students at the end of the year isn't much altered--some students change their ranking, but it all averages out. Some good, most average, some poor. We can't accept that. We insist that all teachers be above average, that the only way a student can be good is if the teacher is superb. All bad students are the teacher's fault. Apparently the kids fall off the cabbage truck directly into kindergarten.

If you have sucky students you usually have sucky parents. Not always, by any means--bad schools have some great students and good schools have some terrible students; and some abysmal parents produce kids that go on to get PhDs or otherwise show great educational achievement, some academically "well-off" parents produce kids that flunk out of 10th grade. But the stats show that whether you're white, black, or brown your education level is going to have a very, very large effect on your kids' level, and your educational attainment is going to be very strongly correlated with your income and wealth levels and with family structure and number of children you have. There are a lot of reasons for this. But most parents don't want to hear it because it squarely places some easy fixes for poor student achievement in the home and says that the choice of dropping out of school (etc.) has consequences they didn't intend. No, what the parents want are full-day babysitters that provide a nurturing, academically challenging environment to make up for their deficiencies while being told how wonderful and meritorious the parents are. (Of course, the kids see this, and expect to have their own deficiences somehow made up by others while being told how wonderful and meritorious they are: The kids see a behavior modelled and they learn it.)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. If you want to blame the victims, you need to ask someone else to agree with you. n/t
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. The solution to racism is to give people advantages based on their race?
Edited on Tue Aug-03-10 09:26 AM by Kurska
Did I say the system is completely fair, of course not, but that doesn't mean making it unfair in a DIFFERENT way makes it more fair. Affirmative action is based on the intellectually dishonest argument that it is the only alternative to the current flawed system. That is not only a major logical fallacy, but completely untrue. We should at all times be striving for a society where blacks and whites are judged exclusively on their merits, not their race, Affermative action does not do this, so it is a bad policy

Why don't we strive for a race neutral system instead of just doing the same thing wrong, but backwards.
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. The Solution To Racism Is To Recognize Racism
Invidious, institutional or otherwise, in order to find the correct remedy. It's not going to help if more blacks are finally hired or accepted into schools based on their merits (not whether they are white/have the right connections or went to the right schools) then whites keep yelling "REVERSE RACISM" as if they never benefited from the good ol' fashioned racism.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. BS. Affirmative action is still needed
When corporate boardrooms look like America we can stop.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Pacific Legal Foundation, far right wackjobs. This fight isn't over. n/t
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Californians here can vote them out of office.
I have all 6 on my list of NO WAY on retention.

Moreno was the only one appointed by a Dem & he voted the right way.
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kiranon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Agree. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. California is always under attack by these people.
We practically have to sleep in shifts. :)
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golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
15. Forget affirmative action...just give me laws barring
discrimination based on race, gender and national origin.

As a person of south Asian descent, I want to succeed on my
own merits. If I am the beneficiary of affirmative action of any
kind, I would be labeled the "token minority". Thanks but no thanks.

However if some one is going to prefer a less qualified person over me
because of race, gender or national origin, you bet I want the full force
of law thrown at him/her.

I want every person to have a chance to succeed based on their merit,
not the color of their skin.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Then you should like the affirmative action executive orders
Edited on Tue Aug-03-10 08:59 AM by izzybeans
and the civil rights act, because that is precisely what it does.

This law doesn't ban affirmative action, it bans preferential treatment, which is not what the Executive Orders pertaining to affirmative action state or how the law is applied in legal proceedings.

It's a right-wing ruse and legal theater because they are double-secret-plus banning the very thing that Lyndon Johnson's Executive Orders forbid and reaffirming exactly how affirmative action cases have been applied in courts.

It's really not that difficult if you take the time to read them. However if you listen to rightwing commentators who make a living race-baiting then sure, you'll think what you think about affirmative action.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. So you want to get rid of a program that helps to counter
the profound discrimination in this country because of a right wing label? That seems shortsighted to me.
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. You can't counter racism with what is at it's core just more racism. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. You seem not to understand the difference between racism
and remediation. Btw, reverse racism is another right wing label.
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I don't support affirmative action for the same reason I don't support the death penalty.
Edited on Tue Aug-03-10 10:01 AM by Kurska
Murdering someone who murdered isn't justice and neither is giving race based benefits to someone "remediation" for racism, it is the same evil coin flipped to the other side and frankly that doesn't solve anything. Either our society trades in the currency of racism or it doesn't, we can't afford to betray the dream of a merit based race neutral society for whatever reason and for whatever cause.

That said I certainly don't consider people who support affirmative action racists, or think that the policy is inspired by racism, but to me a spade will always be a spade.
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. So If A Company Suddenly Hires More Minorities
ending years of discrimination in hiring, are you still going to be yelling "reverse racism"?
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. First off I would assume they were hired because they are the most qualified person for the job...
Edited on Tue Aug-03-10 12:38 PM by Kurska
Just because a minority gets hired doesn't mean they needed government assistance to get the job. If it however turns out they were hired not because they were the most qualified, but because the color of their skin was needed to meet some sort of "race quota It would be just as wrong as if the situation was reversed and whites were hired because of the color of their skin.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. " is the ideal, affirmative action is a betrayal of that ideal.
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. Don't Worry, Quotas Are Illegal
If in fact you can prove that minorities are being hired or retained with no regards to their qualifications, you can certainly sue.

But the fact is that reverse discrimination often just exist in the minds of white people. For example, according to one study by Alfred Blumrosen, between 1990 and 1994 there were only 100 reverse discrimination suits filed out of 3,000 federal discrimination cases. Out of those 100, a whopping 12 were not immediately thrown out of court due to lack of merit, and out of those only six were found to be true and the plaintiffs were compensated accordingly.

So clearly your two choices are to solve the existing barriers against minorities that are very real or complaining about reverse discrimination against whites that hardly exist while maintaining the status quo. Which do you choose?
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. There is no such thing as "reverse racism".
Edited on Wed Aug-04-10 06:15 PM by Kurska
There is giving advantages to one race over the other and then there is treating everyone the same despite their race, the former is racism and the latter is logic. Affirmative action is the former. The way to address existing barriers against minorities is to REMOVE THEM ENTIRELY through the process of building a race neutral society. Injecting race into hiring doesn't end racism it just ensures that no matter what there is a racial part of the equation, it is a betrayal of everything that the civil rights movement fought for.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. As I said, you have a basic misunderstanding of what racism is
because no one who does confuses AA with racism.
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Giving advantage to one race over another for job hiring/college admission is racism.
Edited on Wed Aug-04-10 06:11 PM by Kurska
Black, white, Asian, middle eastern, whatever WE ARE ALL THE SAME and someone's race SHOULDN'T BE A FACTOR FOR WHETHER THEY GET INTO A COLLEGE OR NOT.
Please point out what part of that statement is untrue.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Here's a nice anecdote.
I was appointed to a committee with two admissions officers (and a bunch of others). We looked at university policies. It was the year prop 18x (whatever the number is) was taking effect.

The admissions folks were late in the process of reviewing applications. One, a woman, was upset. She kept a tally of different minorities and her numbers were down sharply even though they had all kinds of race/ethnicity-correlated factors worked into the process. They tried to find proxies for race/ethnicity, and apparently didn't realize that this would immediately result in whites and E Asians making use of the same proxies. Overcome obstacles? Sure. Bad school? Sure. Low SES? Sure.

The other officer laughed and said to be creative. To accidentically write down 39 as 93 on Luis Portillo's application and 97 as 79 on Heather Ericksen's, to swap the results for "Dakota Johnson" and "Malik Johnson," to leave out the second page of names in hopes that the higher ranking kids' absence won't be noticed, to not rank some high-achieving kids because information is missing so that they won't be in the first or second round of admits. Some involved "helping" minorities by altering the results to favor them because of skin color; some involved actively hurting the two dominant groups by lowering their scores or trying to prevent their being considered. They had admissions goals by race, and were going to achieve that, proposition or no proposition, whether that meant fudging things so that minority kids were above whites or E Asians in the ranking or by actively reducing the numbers for whites and E Asians.

That same year in defense of affirmative action the committee requested a report by some administrator. It was delayed. The dean said he wasn't happy with it. The committee insisted, the dean relented, and the poor administrator arrived. He had looked at graduation rates for men and women, broken down by ethnicity. He, of course, found that minorities dropped out more and the ranking given to them upon admission was meaningless. It was obviously racism. Then he showed the same group of students ranked by standardized test scores/high school GPA. He showed evidence that incoming GPA and test scores were fairly predictive of success in college to justify this ranking. His results? Minorities were overrepresented in the bottom quartile and were a majority of the bottom decile when ranked this way--the difference being unstated, but entirely affirmative action. Overall, men scored lower than women--with the difference in male and female averages being higher for minorities than for whites. The bottom quartile upon admission had a low graduation rate and low college GPAs. The bottom decile was very likely to fail out and was mostly male. The committee again suggested racism with a certain amount of outrage, but he was prepared.

He disaggregated the data for whites/E Asians so he could compare dropout rates for like cohorts. Minorities, whites, E Asians had essentially the same dropout rates when incoming test scores and GPA were controlled. Dropouts weren't very likely to return to school--too discouraged and too much debt. This is "Racism isn't the reason, part I". But he went further and compared the students between schools in the college system. He compared white students by entering GPA and standardized test scores and found that at lower-ranked in-system colleges white students that flunked out or graduated with low GPAs would probably graduate and have around a 2.5-3.0 GPA. Then he showed the same thing for minorities. He didn't state the inference; we all knew it. If a cohort of white students is predicted drop out because they have low entering GPAs and test scores but do well at "lesser" colleges, why wouldn't the black and Latino students predicted to drop out because they have low entering GPAs and test scores not also do well at lesser colleges? After a pause the administrator showed the evidence: Black and Latino students with entering GPAs and test scores in the bottom decile at "my" school almost always graduated at the other schools--at the same rates as whites.

The committee tried for some questions then icily dismissed the administrator. The report was never mentioned, although it had several implications. First, the policy of admitting whites and E Asians that were underqualified but met minimum standards--done largely because the school wanted to be able to boast that it wasn't elitist--caused some whites and E Asians to fail out because of institutional pride and image. Second, affirmative action by and large had the same effect, bringing in underqualified students and setting them up to fail. The school invariably reported the ethnic composition of the incoming class, embarrassed only because minority numbers were low. That the graduating class was far less "diverse" was left unstated and it was hard to find the demographics in public sources. The sole exception was that they railed against the lower black male drop-out rate as evidence of some kind of discrimination. (Which was actually predictable before the kids were even admitted, the administrator had shown and left unsaid.) Third, and a corollary to the first two: This school would do low-end white and minority students a favor by not admitting them but sending them to lower-ranked schools. Their attempts to correct a historical social injustice was perpetrating a current social injustice.

Now, affirmative action doesn't always commit such a blatant injustice. In this case, however, it did, and the administrators' conceit made them very, very upset with this administrator. Nobody could find fault with his numbers. They tried. Faced with evidence they were doing something bad both for the students they intentionally hurt as well as those they were so virtuously "helping," they decided to stick their fingers in their ears and sing "la-la-la." They were virtuous so how could they be hurting people?

AA programs need to be validated by measurements that really show their benefit. Too often parents or the public reads reports that show AA improves things, but often it's not by the standards they were told would be used or that they consider important. In other cases it's a belief that AA is good because, well, something must be done, and it's better to expend resources doing something--even if it's not particularly helpful for the "common good" or even any particular good to those allegedly being helped--than do nothing. Then the metric is that it's good as long as it doesn't hurt, or even it's good if it doesn't hurt a specific group too much.

I stand by my claim: Desegregation isn't a goal in itself, at least not by the standards most people hold dear. Moreover, affirmative action isn't always good and shouldn't be elevated to a fundamental of belief. It, too, is a tool, and has both negative and positive effects that need to be weighed whenever it's used.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Ridiculous. What those people did is illegal, not affirmative action.
And if you believe desegregation isn't a goal in itself, you must never had to suffer the consequences of segregation.
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golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. There is a place for affirmative action for minorities
But that should be limited to such programs as..

>> Giving financial aid to minorities to go to college who need it.
However there should not be a quota based on race. If the minority
student can succeed in college then he deserves financial aid as
compensation for past discriminations.

>> Special attention given by the Attorney General to cases involving
racial/national origin/gender based discrimination in jobs.

When you start favoring college admission based on race etc. it is
discriminating against other races.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
16. Brown must be elected governor so we can get more progressive justices.
A 6-1 right wing court is unacceptable.
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
32. Good.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
36. I'm not exactly sure why women would need affirmative action....
in public colleges. They already are the majority and keep increasing year upon year. And Asians, a minority, are often on the losing side of race-based affirmative action. I think affirmative action based on things like income have a much more intended effect. It will disproportionally help those races who are disproportionally poor. My friend got a minority scholarship to school for being 1/4th Mexican. He looks more European than most Europeans. Blonde hear, blue eyes. Who knows how much of his Mexican ancestry was European. And he came from a pretty well to do background. Surely that money could have gone to someone with greater need. But affirmative action based on race can often times not be the most effective way of distributing funds to those who most need it.

I think income based affirmative action is great, in-state residents is understandable, physically disabled I'm not so sure is necessary unless it leads to economic hardship, which once again would be solved by income based affirmative action, children of alumni is ridiculous, women-based doesn't make much sense in that men are by far not succeeding in college in accordance to their numbers, and race a rather ineffective sort of affirmative action compared to income.

To me, something like poverty eradication programs or universal healthcare would be much better ways to increase diversity at colleges to something that reflects the real world than race-based affirmative action.
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. your position is both sensitive and sensible n/t
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