Outsourcing to India Draws Western Lawyers

[varun]

Source: NYT

Outsourcing to India Draws Western Lawyers

...At Pangea3, a legal outsourcing firm, Mr. Wheeler manages a team of 110 Indian lawyers who do the grunt work traditionally assigned to young lawyers in the United States — at a fraction of the cost.

India’s legal outsourcing industry has grown in recent years from an experimental endeavor to a small but mainstream part of the global business of law. Cash-conscious Wall Street banks, mining giants, insurance firms and industrial conglomerates are hiring lawyers in India for document review, due diligence, contract management and more...

...Thanks to India’s low wages and costs and a big pool of young, English-speaking lawyers, outsourcing firms charge between one-third and one-tenth what a Western law firm bills per hour...

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/business/global/05legal.html?_r=1

---

I dont think many here on DU would mind all the lawyers to be outsourced. :)

[Larkspur]

1. I'm waiting for the CEO's to be outsourced.

If companies want to cut costs, they should start at the top.

[OhioChick]

5. +1000 n/t

[AlbertCat]

6. I'm waiting for Congress to be outsourced.

Both Houses.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

30. we could get a Chinese congress instead

they might do a better job

[harun]

50. What will happen is, once they have a trained populace, (which we are training by

outsourcing), they will simply create their own companies and use their home grown talent.

[villager]

2. "The first thing we do, let's outsource the lawyers..."

Didn't Shakespeare say that..." ;-)

[Geoff R. Casavant]

3. Everyone hates lawyers . . .

. . . until they need one.

For document review, due diligence, and so on, outsourcing is an excellent idea. But if you need to go into an actual courtroom, well, I expect the cost of flying your attorney halfway around the world and back each time, just might eat into your savings.

[peacetalksforall]

4. What is so EXCELLENT about out-sourcing anything. We are hurting in our own country.

The people of this country are going into despair. How sad that you say excellent. You probably mean that those precise work steps can be outsourced ok, but how unfortunate that you say EXCELLENT. Yes, I'm angry. This entire subject is a disgrace and you make it hurt more.

[AlbertCat]

7. Besides...

.... isn't that grunt work done by young lawyers how they learn to be good lawyers?

[peacetalksforall]

11. Excellent point. I do mean excellent.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

12. Quite simple -- pure economics.

It would be just as excellent to find young lawyers here in the U.S. who will do this work at the hourly rates of the Indian lawyers, which is still pretty darn good money. I would encourage any young attorneys who can't get jobs at big firms to take such work. But really, if you can get the work done for $50 an hour, why would you spend $200?

[peacetalksforall]

15. Are you an American?

[Geoff R. Casavant]

22. Yes. Yes I am.

And I represent regular people who don't necessarily have a lot of money, meaning I advance a lot of costs myself, including the cost of others to do just the kind of research mentioned in the OP, and this often means that I eat those costs if my clients are unable to pay. So I trust you can excuse me if I take advantage of anything that will keep those costs down, both for my clients and occasionally myself.

[peacetalksforall]

34. For a person like myself who thinks that out-sourcing is a malicious, forced rape, you're words

do not garner any sympathy from me. You are saying that out-sourcing is justifiable when the reason is part charity.

You could have presented your case in reverse - it might have succeeded.

I hold resentment for all out-sourcing and I don't draw lines.

I assume you are speaking of legal counsel, so I imagine that all lawyers are working and none are in unemployment lines or losing homes or explaining any an economic tsunami to their children.

[The Stranger]

32. I'm sure people love having their privileged and most sensitive information splashed across screens

on the other side of the planet every night.

Few bad experiences, maybe theft of trade secrets, fraudulent use of privileged information, and we're on our way . . .

Wait. Here it comes. It's coming . . .

. . . the pushback to having it done in the U.S. by licensed and regulated, actual attorneys.

[closeupready]

47. Airfare, as a cost of doing business, is subsidized by the American taxpayer, isn't it?

Or it can be written off, can't it?

[superconnected]

8. Lawyers - Bankers and Wall Street workers next. MUHHAHHAAHAHHAHA!

[LibDemAlways]

9. Here's a thought. Let Indians work for Indian companies and

citizens of the USA work for American companies. Other countries have laws in place to protect their workers. It's about time we strengthened ours.

[golfguru]

16. You could'nt afford much of anything if everything was

made in USA. International trade makes the most efficient producer of goods
to win and thus benefit consumers all over the world. AT one time USA had the
monopoly on manufacturing, right after WWII. Now anything can be manufactured
abroad at cheaper prices which benefits consumers in USA.

[brentspeak]

18. So how was it possible that Americans had no problem affording US-made goods decades after WWII?

You can take as long as you need to answer that question.

2nd question: Why do Apple laptops and iPhones, which are made by Chinese who are paid about a $1/day, cost so much? Where exactly are this savings that are "benefiting" US consumers?

3rd question: How long until enough of those "consumers" who you're so concerned about begin to wheel out the guillotine for every politician, business lobbyist, CEO, and yes, even apologist, who were responsible for shipping their livelihoods out of the country?

[golfguru]

23. Very simple explanation to your points raised...

The time period you are talking about is when we manufactured half
of the world's products. Japan & Germany & Britain, the main industrial
nations were bombed out. China & India lacked manufacturing knowhow.
Manufacturing is the most potent creator of wealth. So we could afford
to pay every one high wages. There was no competition! No country made
millions of cars, TV's, computers (all invented here) in quantities we did.
India & China are going to kill us more and more every year. Combined they
have 10 times the work force we have and now they can manufacture anything.

2nd question: I have several friends in China and I always make it a point
to find out about their wages. What I am learning is that the lowest wage
is around 1000 RMB per month for basic clerical work. That is $130 aprox.
SOunds a little more than $1 a day. AN engineering graduate I know makes
between $50 & $60k per year. Highly skilled people are in high demand in
China & India and earn pretty good wages.

As for Apple charging you more?
Apple has no competition! They produce very specialized products which
people want....iPhones, iPads etc. Apple laptops do not use Windows for
their operating system. They use their own proprietory operating system.
I can buy a Windows based laptop for $300.

3rd question: Obviously consumers are fat & happy with current crop of
politicians, who are influenced by lobbyists, etc otherwise they would
vote them out. It is not you or me or IT people who elect politicians.
It is every voter in country.

[brentspeak]

31. The question was about manufacturing workers, not highly skilled engineers

It also sounds like your $130/month isn't going over too well in China: http://www.economist.com/node/16693397?story_id=16693397

At least you're acknowledging (sort of) that the United States is becoming poor due to its manufacturing base being destroyed. But then you contradicted your own point by admitting that Apple products are hugely expensive: how can Americans afford inflated Apple prices but not be able to afford made-in-USA products?

You seem content to watch the US turn into a neo-3rd World nation as a result of globalization. Don't be surprised to wake up one day and find that your favorite golf courses have added security personnel to keep out the formerly middle class-turned-homeless people from seeking shelter there.

[golfguru]

40. You can't stop the rise of China & India

where nearly third of the world's population exists. USA can not prop itself up
like in the post WW II period. Those countries will raise their living standards
and we will be forced to lower ours.

Water seeks it own level. Gravity is the great equalizer.

[brentspeak]

43. Then "equalize" things and volunteer to have your own job offshored or your salary reduced

Since you're an apologist for the job-sucking mantra of globalization, what are you waiting for?

[golfguru]

44. Do you think I am a masochist?

I am adapting to the economic reality as well as I can.
Whining will not help me one iota.

[No Elephants]

36. Re: your answer to the third question: I bet a lot more than 50% of people in this country have no

idea who is in Congress, including their own Senators and Rep, and even less about the specifics of what Congress had done--and left undone.

[golfguru]

39. That is true, Apathy is supreme in USA n/t

[No Elephants]

46. You can't believe both simultaneously. "Fat and happy" with politicians, or they'd vote them out"

is very different from uninformed, uninvolved, apathetic, etc.


brentspeak, Reply #18:

<snip>

"3rd question: How long until enough of those "consumers" who you're so concerned about begin to wheel out the guillotine for every politician, business lobbyist, CEO, and yes, even apologist, who were responsible for shipping their livelihoods out of the country"

golfguru, Reply #23 (to Brentspeak):

<snip>


"3rd question: Obviously consumers are fat & happy with current crop of
politicians, who are influenced by lobbyists, etc otherwise they would
vote them out. It is not you or me or IT people who elect politicians."
It is every voter in country]]

No Elephants, Reply #36 (to golfguru):

"Re: your answer to the third question: I bet a lot more than 50% of people in this country have no idea who is in Congress, including their own Senators and Rep, and even less about the specifics of what Congress had done--and left undone."


golfguru, Reply # 39 (to No Elephants): That is true, Apathy is supreme in USA n/t

[No Elephants]

35. Because we had pwned the other manufacturing countries?

[mbperrin]

21. Except for losing those jobs and running out of money to buy anything at all.

Most efficient producers as long as you like H2S in your drywall, melamine in your baby formula and pet food, and lead in your crayons.

Efficient and cheap are not really the same when all other factors are not held constant. And they're not.

It's like self-service gas. Back when gasoline was 12 cents a gallon, the attendant came to the pump, asked how many gallons you wanted, and began pumping it, while also washing all your windows, checking all your fluids, checking your tire pressure, belts for wear, battery for water and vacuuming the floorboards. He made change on the spot and sent you on your way.

THEN the majors wanted to make more money, so they said, pump your own gas for TEN cents a gallon! You'll save FORTY cents per tank!

Because I was young and dumb, I thought it was a good deal, and so I did it, and so did everyone else, and pretty soon, full-service was dead. Fast forward to present. Who pumps your 80 year old grandma's gas? She does, in 100 degree weather or icy conditions. Who checks all that other stuff? Nobody. Any consequences to running low tires, bad belts, low brake fluid, low coolant? Yep. So cheaper has made the quality of life worse and eliminated many thousands of jobs.

That's why when I'm in line now at the store, and someone says, "Sir, the self-checkout lanes are open," I say, loudly, "NO THANKS, I WON'T DO SOMEONE ELSE'S JOB FOR FREE, ROBBING THEM OF THEIR LIVELIHOOD! IF I HAD ANY INTEGRITY, I'D TAKE AN AXE TO THOSE DAMNED SLAVE-MAKING, JOB-TAKING, MECHANICAL MONSTERS!!!"

Nobody ever asks me twice. I'm wiser than I used to be. Cheaper is not always better, nor efficient.

[golfguru]

24. For every example of shoddy goods you stated, I can state

1000 goods and services which are good quality. Why do you think
Japanese auto industry became such a big giant? Because they produced
better quality cars than American cars in the 1970's & 80's. All my
best golf equipment comes from China. India made pharmaceuticals are
in every pharmacy with excellent results. I am just finishing a course
of anti-biotic (Ciprofloxin) made in India with very good results.

[mbperrin]

28. I've named three. You've named one. You owe me 2,999 more.

That's your offer, honor it, or admit you were just blowing hard.

GM led in worldwide auto sales from 1931 to 2008, an all time record, so your cars in the 70's and 80's analogies are false. You might want to check those Toyota recalls lately as well. India hasn't been without flaws, either:


WASHINGTON -- The government closed U.S. borders Tuesday to more than 30 generic drugs -- including popular antibiotics and cholesterol medicines -- made by India's biggest pharmaceutical company, citing poor quality in two of its factories.

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2008/09/fda_closes_borders_to_generic.html

Now, get busy on that list of 2,999 services which are as good a quality and cheaper in price than the same good made in this country. That's your self-imposed burden, your independent offer. Make good or fold your tent.

[AnneD]

33. I never go through the self check out either ....

even if I have to buy a stick of gum. I have seen them get rid of station attendants, bank tellers, butchers. I am their customer, not their employee. :wtf:

Some one needs a job and I am not going to take it away from them.

On a similar note...some ex rays, cat scans etc are read overseas. I think that is dangerous because if they are misread or the sattelite link goes down, who is responsible and who are you going to sue. They bitch about a shortage of radiologist but that too is a crock of shit. Most folks are not aware of this but it is a dangerous growing trend.

[Little Star]

52. +1

[Yavin4]

29. Globalization Is A Major Scam and It's Got Nothing To Do With Free Trade

Post WWII Japan and Germany are true examples of international trade. They developed their own industries and competed directly in the world marketplace.

China and India have not developed their own industries. They just entice multi-nationals to set up shop there because they manipulate their currencies so that their labor is extremely cheap.

Globalization, operating under the guise of Free Trade, is nothing more than exploitation of labor, and it's throwing the world's economy out of balance because it bifurcates national economies into primarily producer/consumer nations. Once the consumer nations stop buying, then the world's economy collapses which is what is happening now.

[golfguru]

41. How is world economy collapsing when the BRICs are growing

between 7 & 12% every year? Looks to me like the mature industrial
countries are the only ones in a funk. Brazil, Russia, India & China
all are showing good growth curves, albeit slowed a little due to
recessions in old industrial countries.

[Yavin4]

42. Growth Rate Based on Currency Devaluation

Hey, if you completely devalue the currency so that your own people can never afford ANYTHING that they make, then yeah, you can show a dramatic growth rate.

Also, given the size of China's population, that growth rate is actually pretty small.

[golfguru]

45. Actually China's Yuan is undervalued

which makes import more expensive...so you are right, locals can
not easily afford imports. But indigenous products are fairly cheap
in both China & India. One can rent a livable apartment, afford clothes & food
for $100 a month in both countries.

[benld74]

10. Ah my memories of Punjab U are very vivid, yesy they are,,,

[KamaAina]

13. Are these lawyers trained in U.S. law?

:shrug:

[treestar]

14. That would be the question

If they are not members of a US state bar, they would be acting more as paralegals. And the lawyers here would still be responsible for the work in the end. I'd be pretty nervous about that, in that position. It may be no more than proofreading. Rare would be the legal situation where someone who never lived in this country could give good advice.

[logan.morgoth]

51. Legal Advice and Legal Support

The Indian legal outsourcing firms rarely give legal advice. Infact, they cannot. They can just provide litigation support. Additionally, most of the legal outsourcing firms do not provide top-end legal services and engage only in document-intensive legal work.

SDD Global Solutions (http://www.sddglobal.com/ - a high end legal outsourcing firm) is almost the only Indian firm that provides only high-end legal support services and no low-end services. At SDD Global, senior US attorneys, and attorneys trained in US law, review and supervise the research and drafting done by the Indian lawyers. Of course, the work submitted by SDD Global is reviewed by the local attorneys or law firms in the US. This greatly reduces the work load of the local attorney and the law firm, plus it makes the whole process a lot cheaper. Because litigation suddenly becomes affordable, a lot more cases reach or shall reach the actual litigation stage rather than die down at the settlement stage. This is how more work-flow is created in US because of outsourcing.

For a more detailed explanation see Russell Smith's view on this subject (that is supported by US economists and policy makers). http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/keeping-legal-work-from-moving-to-india/#comment-727079.
See also, http://lawwithoutborders.typepad.com

It is much like globalization. After the initial jitters of complete intrusion by US in the markets in developing countries, they realised that it is not all bad. Same would be the case with legal outsourcing.

[golfguru]

17. US law is basically a derivation from British law.

And so is Indian Law. Lots of commonality. Indians are good at academics.
They boast the oldest university in the world, more than 2000 years old at
Varanasi, India.

[KamaAina]

20. Lawyers from one state aren't allowed to practice in another unless the states have reciprocity.

When it's a different country, even one with a shared common-law tradition (like, say, Canada), the differences would be magnified even further.

[golfguru]

25. There is more to lawyering than court trials

You need to have passed bar exam and proper degree to "practice law" which
means giving legal advice and court appearances. But there is also a lot of
research work done in complex law suits which does not need American certification.
It makes American lawyers more productive and cost efficient when that work is
done in India.

[daleo]

Eventually, communism will start looking pretty good again. n/t

[golfguru]

26. Formerly "pure" communist countries such as China & USSR

are abandoning communism and going capitalist. More "NEW" millionaires
are being created in China & Russia than anywhere else right now. India,
a formerly socialist country, now boasts 2 of the richest persons in the world
out of top 5.

[daleo]

48. Wow, billionaires.

Lucky them, they have billionaires. Maybe our billionaries and their billionaires can have a party, while the rest of us eat gruel.

[daleo]

19. Eventually, communism will start looking pretty good again. n/t

[pipoman]

27. Unless they need a lawyer, then drive the lawyer f'ing nuts

[No Elephants]

37. I see Varun (OP) has bought into the RW view of lawyers.

I always find it interesting to note what gets someone who rarely posts here motivated enough to make another post.

Varun

Member since 2003 before July 6th
Number of posts 1963
Avatar Image
Gender male
State CT
Country USA

[Blue_Tires]

38. damn...i thought our country already had more attorneys than it could handle

[Name removed]

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