Camden preparing to close its libraries, destroy books

[Robbien]

Source: Philly Inquirer

Camden is preparing to permanently shut its library system by the end of the year, potentially leaving residents of the impoverished city among the few in the United States unable to borrow a library book free.

. . .

Redd is facing a $28 million projected deficit stemming from reductions in state aid and a long-standing lack of taxable property. She is planning deep cuts in all departments, and she told McKernan last month that she would slash funding to the 105-year-old library system by about two-thirds.

Because not even one of the three libraries could stay open in 2011 on such limited support, all 21 employees would be laid off, McKernan said.

. . .

All materials in the libraries would be donated, auctioned, stored, or destroyed. That includes 187,000 books, historical documents, artifacts, and electronic equipment. Keeping materials in the shuttered buildings is a fire hazard, officials said, and would make them vulnerable to vandalism and vermin.

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_jersey/20100806_Camden_preparing_to_close_library_system.html

---

:cry:

[DJ13]

1. Why dont they warehouse the books in case they can reopen at a later date?

[Robbien]

2. They looked into that, it costs too much

Per the article
For example:

The libraries contain historically valuable materials, including phone books dating to the 1880s and newspapers on microfilm from the 1870s. If the library board chooses to save the microfilm, it would cost as much as $11,000 a year.

[hughee99]

16. At only 11K a year, that's less than half of what it costs to educate 1 student in Camden. n/t

[shanti]

58. well then, give them away!

but to burn them? ridiculous!

[HillbillyBob]

6. Well one of two reasons

The cost of storage in climate controlled facility would not be cheap, or they don't care about future generations.
But we can still 'afford' 2 disastrous wars........

We live outside the town limits, but the cuts affect us since the county and town are combining operations. We are down from 20some police and sheriffs' deputies to 12 to cover the entire county area is about 428 sq miles.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

3. Something like this?

is a FUCKIN' tragedy and I'm at a loss as to what to think, say or do... :wtf:

[roguevalley]

12. fuck bill gates, steve jobs, every million and billionaire in America

fuck corporations that don't pay a dime but suck us dry. fuck everyone with the money to save this and who won't.

[stray cat]

53. Why do you blame them? How much have you contributed to this one cause?

there are alot of needs in the world - what have you done more than your millionaries and billionaires to make the world a better place and help the people in it?

At the least get a group together to volunteer time to run the library so they don't have to pay employees

[roguevalley]

75. oh please. given that 2% of the world has 95% of the resources

you ask me what *I* have done?! I volunteered everyday in my local library for 24 years after work and on weekends. My mother worked alone eight hours a day as the librarian. What the hell have you done? And wny do you feel you have to defend million and billionares? Those bastards are the reason we are in the shape we are in. Yeah, there are a lot of needs in the world and people with money could fix them but they don't. And yeah, I have done more for libraries than million and billionaires right now.

[Honeycombe8]

91. You don't know much about Gates. He's given away at least half of his $ to

his foundation, which researches and focuses on enormous philanthropic causes. Warren Buffet has, too. Same foundation.

And they have started a "call to arms" for other super rich people to come on board with them and give away half their wealth to help those in need.

They focus on specific causes that they have researched and think they can either solve or make a difference in. They don't just throw money at a problem through an intermediary.

They are making the world a better place.

Keep up on the news. Watch the Charlie Rose show, and Larry King (until he goes off the air in September). It's talk shows like that that have Buffet, Gates, and others on. Interesting interviews.

[Marthe48]

Because of illegal wars

and absolutely no oversight for 8 years, what the population gave to government for social improvement and the future is gone. The poor are suffering, the middle class is suffering. One way up and out is gone , because there are no jobs. Now, with libraries and the public school systems failing because they don't have funding, the poor and middle class will lose out on education, the other way up and out. It isn't going to help for the billionaires to give half their fortunes to charities--that will stave off the inevitable, and drain their resources. The war machine is sucking us all dry--we can't afford developing peace and promoting war. As long as we keep spending money on useless wars, supporting the weapons suppliers, propping up a dying petroleum industry, we as a nation and as a world population will get poorer and poorer. I was in a small old school the other day, where the volunteers were having a rummage sale to support the school. I was in the gym, and noticed the sturdy built-in seats, and all of the effort previous generations put in to improving all lives, not just some, hit home so hard I choked up. We need to go back to that idealistic time when our parents believed the last war had been fought and their kids were going to have lives better than they had. To watch generations of effort being squandered is heartbreaking.

[izquierdista]

102. They wouldn't have to give it

If it had been taxed at a progressive rate in the first place. I say we spare the next Gates and Buffet a headache and bring back the 91% top tax rate. After all, we are at war, and at that rate WWII got paid off rather quickly.

[saigon68]

83. How about fuck the idiots pursuing the goal of killing every muslim

Who doesn't Step and Fetch it

Like Gates and Betrayus and the idiots who continue to waste our national treasure bombing mud huts

[Honeycombe8]

92. Oh, geez. The closing of a library has morphed into hate posts about muslims?

Wow. Do you just walk through life, looking for reasons to hate?

There is absolutely no connection between the closing of a library and rednecks, or Bill Gates, especially (who is one of the most philanthropic, generous, compassionate people in the world....he quit his company and devotes himself to solving world suffering...giving away half his enormous wealth in the process).

Step up to the plate. Give up envy. See problems for what they are....mishandling of state funds that fails to fund libraries.

[Wednesdays]

97. You misread that post. Saigon was objecting to the bombing of muslims.

nt

[saigon68]

111. That's OK

Its just another robot showing up here lately to defend the present occupant's war for corporate profit

[unpossibles]

110. some of them, like Gates, actually do give back a LOT

I understand your point but think it's a bit misdirected.

[MissDeeds]

54. It's a tragedy and a disgrace

In THIS country... We've just taken a giant step back wards.

:cry:

[Newest Reality]

4. How do you spell collapse?

One thing after another. The deeper and more attentively you look, the more obvious it becomes.

Certainly, things are changing and there is more access to information on the Intertubes, but that does not account for the vast catalogs of books and other items that libraries make available to everyone, (along with online terminals) especially those without home access to what is online.

It's not like we have an enviable and wide-spread, high-speed, low-cost network for all here to make-up for the hit on libraries.

[Robbien]

8. Camden is a city where less than a third of people have high-speed Internet

so the library's computer lab is very popular.

[roxiejules]

35. And it is not like the internet is going to stay "free"...

The oligarchs are currently scheming to make sure we pay more for the privilege of using the Tubes. Oh, and they legalized being able to 'shut it down' whenever it is deemed an 'emergency'.

Information won't be available at the libraries anymore, the serfs will be out of luck....the new Dark Ages?

[JDPriestly]

5. Bill Gates, where are you?

Please keep books alive.

[Robbien]

7. The Gates Fdn gave them $10,000 for new computers

They are talking about returning the check because there soon will be no library in which to put the new computers.

[awoke_in_2003]

36. $10K...

to Bill Gates that is equivalent to a nickle.

[stray cat]

56. Camden is one town - Gates has spent alot more than 10,000 - what have you given?

[Wednesdays]

79. And Jesus sat over against the treasury...

and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Mark 12:41-44

[No Elephants]

113. Exactly what I've been thinking as I've been reading this thread.

[MilesColtrane]

65. Bill Gates could give away five million nine hundred thousand individual bundles of $10,000

each, and he'd still be a billionaire.

The size of his wealth is obscene.

[glitch]

70. Very obscene. You can't concentrate wealth and expect to keep the commons.

The collapse of civil society goes with the territory.

I just wish more of these billionaires had bothered to read history, but then I understand some of them (Bush, Gates) were mediocre students anyway.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

115. "I understand some of them (Bush, Gates) were mediocre students anyway."

Wow. I mean, wow. There are biographies of Bill Gates. You owe it to yourself to read up on the guy. He was bright from the word, "go."

Disclaimer: I own stock in Microsoft, but for every share I own, Bill Gates owns 6,000,000. Nothing I say here will have any effect on the price of the stock.

[Honeycombe8]

93. Oh, I see. The library is "entitled" to the money that would otherwise go to starving children?

Or...people dying of AIDS? Or people living without clean water? Or people without shelter or education at all?

The fact that the library got, for free, thousands of dollars, is great. The attitude of looking a gift horse in the mouth and complaining that the gift isn't nice enough...I don't relate to that attitude. That's like people who complain about the gifts they get for Christmas, when there are millions of people who get no gifts at all.

I blame the state. It is the state's responsibility to fund libraries. If they don't have the $, they don't the $, for now.

[JDPriestly]

80. Ironic. Don't throw away your books. If you lose your libraries and your books

you could lose intellectual freedom. Internet access can be bought and sold. It's kind of hard to buy up all the books in the world, very easy to buy up internet access.

[SILVER__FOX52]

9. And, so it begins...............

God have mercy on us! This is incredible

[DesertDiamond]

10. DESTROY them??? cheaper to just give them away!!!

[Robbien]

14. They are only talking about destroying the books not sold/given away

And the article says if the library cannot find a donor for all of its books, throwing them away would require renting dumpsters for $6,230, money they don't have.

[Divernan]

44. It's Fahrenheit 451 (film based on Ray Bradbury's book The Fireman) .

In that book, Granger reflects over the city's destruction, saying, "We know the damn silly thing we just did. We know all the damn silly things we've done for a thousand years and as long as we know that and always have it around where we can see it, someday we'll stop making the goddamn funeral pyres and jumping in the middle of them." He goes on, "But even when we had the books on hand, a long time ago, we didn't use what we got out of them."

Nobody wants the great majority of old books, even for free. An old (literally old - 89 years old) friend of mine - a retired university professor with a personal library of about 3,000 books, had to move into assisted living. His books dated back to the 1930's and were in French, German and English. He'd always assumed that his University would be delighted to be given his library - and even thought he'd get a tax break for a charitable contribution. His University had zero interest. Nor did any of the other colleges in the area. In desperation, he called our local library. They also turned him down. He had to pay to have them recycled. It was a heart-breaking experience for him.

The biggest loss to the community re this town's libraries will be loss of internet access for the 2/3s who have no personal computer.
No banking/bill-paying on line, no researching medical issues, no accessing non-Fox type news coverage, no getting info about social security, medicare, tax obligations,or a host of other government programs. No checking transportation schedules or buying tickets online. No Mapquest.
And let's face it - how many teenagers, or people of any age do you see with their noses in books, versus texting/tweeting, cell-phoning, or watching brain deadening reality shows on TV? Basically, the people who read are independent thinkers, i.e., intellectuals - and we know the contempt in which we're held by the vast majority of misedumacated Americans.

[hay rick]

57. Paying to have books recycled.

Everything changes while we ourselves age, decay, and are ultimately discarded. Thanks for the story.

[LostinVA]

81. "Free" books given to libraries aren't free

They have to be researched: do we already have a title, do we have a need for this in our collection? Many times what people consider "good" books really aren't for a general or academic collection. So, the books not needed have to be recycled. All of this takes a huge amount of time, which costs money.

Then, the books you keep have to be cataloged, marked, etc., all of which costs time. And is their shelf room??? Probably not. Every day librarians pull books and put them into compact storage or weed them, stop getting bound journals, etc. Again, all of this is hugely expensive and time-consuming to do.

Libraries tend not to like "gift books" too much for this reason, and would prefer money gifts. Libraries are horribly understaffed, even in universities as well-endowed as Harvard.

[Divernan]

82. Exactly so.

Just as libraries stopped saving newspapers, and copied them on to microfiche and then to software, it seems clear that libraries will move to making their offerings available online, so that banks of individual computer monitors will replace "the stacks", and anyone with their own computer will never have to physically visit a library.

[LostinVA]

84. it's cheaper to have newspaper and journals online

i think it will be a very long time before there are no stacks, but certain things can be easily turned into "e" instead of paper.

Most people don't understand the nuts and bolts of libraries, so I'm not snarking at anyone, just that many "gifts" are met with a strangled smile for a reason! lol

[LargeGreenSpider]

11. This country blows

... I give up.

[DBoon]

13. This is what government drowning in a batchtub sounds like

No public library - why take business away from Borders and Amazon?

We impoverish public libraries so billionaires can avoid paying taxes

[Wilms]

15. Republicans at it again...

[one-eyed fat man]

17. There is an old story might explain what happened

It seemed that 10 men decided to have a business lunch once a week. They always met in the same restaurant and the bill was always, $100.00, for all 10 men. If each man was responsible for his share of the bill that would be, $10.00, each. The men decided to divide the bill based upon their ability to pay (using the progressive structure of the tax code). Using this formula the following payment arrangement was worked out based upon income.

Men 1-4 who made the least amount of money paid nothing.

Man 5 paid $ 1.00

Man 6 paid $ 3.00

Man 7 paid $ 7.00

Man 8 paid $12.00

Man 9 paid $18.00

Man 10 paid $59.00

After several weeks the owner of the restaurant told the men that because they were such good customers he was reducing the bill by $20.00. Their dilemma was how to divide up the, $20.00. If each person got the same amount then the first 4 men would be getting money back but they never paid anything for the dinners. After much discussion and no resolve the owner offered the following suggestion which they all agreed to.

Original Payment-New Payment-$ Amount Saved-% Saved

Men 1-4 paid $ 0.00 $ 0.00 $0.00 0%

Man 5 paid $ 1.00 $ 0.00 $1.00 100%

Man 6 paid $ 3.00 $ 2.00 $1.00 33%

Man 7 paid $ 7.00 $ 5.00 $2.00 28%

Man 8 paid $12.00 $ 9.00 $3.00 25%

Man 9 paid $18.00 $14.00 $4.00 22%

Man 10 paid $59.00 $50.00 $9.00 15%

Once outside the men began to argue about the settlement. Man 5 said he only got, $1.00, while Man 10 received, $9.00. Men 1-4 were upset because the received nothing. They said that the cut only benefited the rich and the poor got nothing. They were upset so they beat up Man 10 and left him. The next week they met for lunch as usual except man 10 did not show up. When the new bill arrived the men discovered that between them they did not have enough money to pay even half of the bill.

If the city structures its taxes so the people who paid them move out of town, over the long haul, this is what happens. Those folks that the declining quality of life drove from Camden are paying taxes to improve some other towns' libraries.

[walnutpie]

18. Quite true

It happened to the once vital town of Bridgeport in CT too. Taxes drove industry out, when industry left, property taxes drov out everyone who could afford to move. Now there are no jobs for those who are left, and the town has no one left to tax. They still keep property and business taxes sky high to what end, no one knows.

[Robbien]

20. Except in our system the rich men

have all their money in foreign accounts and claim poverty so that they should pay nothing for the lunch. The middle classes are picked up their bill. When the restaurant gave the group the credit, the rich men claimed the whole thing.

So the lunch keeps going on with the middle class picking up the tab for all the rich men and poor men. And the rich men get the added bonus of being paid to eat lunch with the group.

The rich men are fat and happy. The middle class slowly drops into poverty and libraries close.

[one-eyed fat man]

34. My momma, bless her soul,

Always complained bitterly that "big businesses" never paid what she considered their fair share of taxes. Now she used to head up a dozen old grandmas and they made food from the old country for weddings and funerals in the old parish church cafeteria. They did this catering all strictly cash and, of course, nothing was said to the health department, IRS, Social Security, the state liquor control board or any of that.

One evening, we were discussing this and I said, "Mom, you use a lot of raisins, what if all of a sudden the government decided to tax raisins at five bucks a pound, what you would have to do about baking for the church?"

"That's a silly question, increase prices, naturally."

"You mean that instead of just 'paying' that tax, you'd just pass it on to the consumer?"

"Well, of course! If ingredients cost more I have to charge more if I want to make any money," says Mom. (...and make no mistake, any money left after paying the other ladies was absolutely her money, and it was no one's business but hers!)

"What do you think GE does? Every business just 'collects taxes' for the government because taxes are always part of the overhead."

Mom says, with that air of absolute finality, "That's different."

She really believed that too!

[Robbien]

41. Except that these days big businesses don't pay taxes

and the only reason a big business will increase their price is because they want a bigger bonus pool.

Over half US businesses didn't pay taxes. Most of them were the big corporations who receive such huge tax credits for everything under the sun.

Small businesses and the middle class are carrying the tax burden of this country.

The rich and big corporates are just another burden we carry on our backs.

So your mom is a smart woman.

[one-eyed fat man]

60. No business pays taxes.

They collect taxes and transfer the money to the government. Taxes on inventory, production, real estate, payroll, excise, licensing, income, every single penny is part of the overhead. Taxes are an expense, just like raw material or labor.

Do governments give breaks to big companies on the amount they demand from business, sure. They make it up on the payroll taxes the get from the workers at those big plants. Cities have gotten plumb cutthroat about offering tax breaks competing for the next big plant.

Are companies pitting one community against another? Sure are. When you haggle with a merchant do you pit his prices against the competition?

What I think you and my mother fail to see is that the principles are the same, just the scale is different. Mom never paid a penny to the IRS, no W-2s for the other grannies, she never saw that as tax evasion. She paid sales tax on stuff she bought but that's as far as it went. They wanted wine with dinner, they got wine, Mom never had a liquor license. Did they serve meals made from wild game?

Kinda like the joke about the guy who asked a woman, "Would you sleep with me for a million bucks?" She thinks a moments and says, "OK." The he asks would you sleep with me for fifty bucks. At this she gets offended and says, "What kind of girl do you think I am?"

"We've already established that, now we are just haggling price."

[Fastcars]

103. Didn't Pay "ANY" Tax?

I agree that their bought and paid for politicians, Repub and Dem, have rigged the system in such a way that they pay no where near as much as they should. But even if a corporation made absolutely no taxes of any kind, the ancillary taxes are obviously so beneficial to a community that the communities are willing to give them all these breaks. If your community does away with the breaks the corp moves somewhere that will give them. I don't consider them evil for doing so. Much like I don't blame someone for taking advantage of tax deductions allowed by the tax code. Do you give Kerry a pass for docking his boat in RI to avoid taxes?

[golfguru]

77. Probably the reason rich people move money abroad is

because taxes are lower there. So that country benefits and grows
while the higher taxed country withers.

[Honeycombe8]

94. Instead of being jealous of those with $, go to work, and work and work...

and work and work...and get more and more educated...and you will become wealthy, too. Then you can give it all away and save libraries.

Most wealthy people I know are arrogant, it's true. But they are among the hardest working people I have known. It's a myth that the middle class are the hardest working. As a middle class person, I work hard. I could have become more educated (which usu. translates into more $), but I chose not to. So I'm middle class, and I work very hard. But no harder than my wealthy bosses. (who don't keep their $ in offshore accounts, as far as I know)

[1monster]

104. That is just plain BS. Poor people work damned hard for their money and

sometimes a whole lot harder than people who are extremely well paid.

I know someone who often worked thirteen to sixteen hours a week and/or worked seven days a week. He came in to work any time that they called him on his days off. Yes, he is mildly retarted, but he was able to work all of the positions in the fast food compnay he worked for. He got no benefits at all, not vacation or sick time and no health insurance. The highest rate of pay he got was $8.25 per hour and the most he ever made in his job was $19,000 one year.

They worked him into the ground, often not allowing him a food break. I found out that he only weighed 85 pound (small guy who wore baggy clothes) and was wearing size 8-12 children's sizes. I asked him, "Are you eating?" He answered, "Well, I TRY to eat at least once a day, but sometimes we are so busy they don't have time to give me a break." That was when he was working twelve or more hours a day.

Needless to say, I was really ticked off and went to his boss and read him the riot act. I told him he was taking unfair advantage of someone who could not stand up for himself and that at 85 pounds he was so thin that any illness at all could kill him without any fat reserve. The boss, who was mostly a decent guy, was aghast and made sure the employee got break time from then on. (And we got the the employee's weight up to 95 pounds and he was still skinny.)

Don't tell me that rich people work harder than poor people do. Teachers put in 7 1/2 to 8 hours a day in school, then go home and work on an average of two to four hours a night. Quite often more. I've seen teachers take their school work with them on outings. And no one is getting rich or even well off on a teaching salary.

Firemen and paramedics in our county are being seriously critizied by county commissioners and especially by the county manager for refusing to forego their contractual raise this year. The county insisted on putting those raises in a multi year contract because they thought they were being frugal. If the raises were set in stone then, they felt they were insuring against larger wage increases later.

The firemen's union said they would agree to negociate with the county over wages IF the county would show how the county's revenues affected by the economy. The county didn't and the firemen refused to negotiate. Who's the bag guys here? According to the county, it is the firemen's union and the firemen.

BTW The firemen make a starting pay of just over $34,000 per year. They top out at just over $38,000 per year. They work very hard and risk their lives to protect us, but none of them are getting rich.

I could go on and on and on about hard work not equalling rich. And you could too, if you are honest. And I'm also sure that we could name many, many ways that people with minimal work make major bucks.

Your argument is a non starter.

[daleo]

105. Lots of rich inherited their wealth and don't work at all

That's why there is so much objection to "death taxes".

[ieoeja]

27. Thank the Reagan tax cuts.

The only thing he really cut out of the federal budget was their support to the states and cities.

Once that dried up, state gov't had to make up the loss. This put the states into competition against each other for industries. So they had less money coming in from the feds, but had to cut taxes to compete for industries. Solution: cut funds to the counties.

This put the counties into competition ... cut funds to the cities.

This put the cities into competition.... Worse yet, cities don't have income taxes. Which means they had to increase property and sales taxes. And property and sales taxes are a much bigger detriment to industy than income taxes.

And so, we are all screwed. I have worked through 9 federal income tax decreases in my lifetime. And the rightists still bitch about federal income taxes 100x more than any other tax.

[chromotone]

30. You need to update this "old story"

Man No. 10 stands up and pees in everybody's lunch, then starts whining about "Oh, oh, give me the money to cover these meals, otherwise, we'll never eat again!"

Then a owner of the restaurant enters the picture and makes the other nine pony up. Then Man No. 10 says, "FUCK YOU" and takes their money and goes down the street to a take-out Chinese food place.

The other nine sit and look at their food with Man No. 10's urine in it and wonder what happened...

[golfguru]

78. Why post such a obscene prose?

[Honeycombe8]

95. I don't get it. nt

[DeSwiss]

45. That's a nice little parable.....

...although I'm not sure that it's applicable in this case:

Redd is facing a $28 million projected deficit stemming from reductions in state aid and a long-standing lack of taxable property. She is planning deep cuts in all departments, and she told McKernan last month that she would slash funding to the 105-year-old library system by about two-thirds.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_jersey/20100806_Camden_preparing_to_close_library_system.html

[joshcryer]

51. Quoted in the OP, too. The library has been getting state funds.

It's not locally funded as far as I can tell (the first problem with running a library system). The parable is quaint, but it's not reflective of how library systems work.

[DeSwiss]

72. Agreed.

I believe the article says local funding is used, but because of the local deficit in city taxes that it is inadequate to keep even one of the three libraries open. Further into the article, it states that a state law requires the city to fund the library at approximately $100K more than what the mayor has provided in her budget proposal.

[one-eyed fat man]

68. we had a long time problem

All the states that were carved out of the Louisian Purchase were required to base their school taxes on poperty tax and as the tax base moved to the suburbs and left the slums and empty buildings in town there was great disparity in funding.

The solution was "metro" government. By consolidating schools, police departments, etc at a level above 'city' the metro government was able to redistribute the money from the property taxes in the suburbs.

[DeSwiss]

73. I quite understand.

The city in which I live (Nashville, TN) saw the handwriting on the wall early and consolidated the city/county back in 1963. It was supposedly the http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-South/Nashville-History.html">first officially created metropolitan city in the US (or so they taught us in junior high school). But we have a similar taxation problem in that we're also the buckle on the bible belt with many religious printing and related companies -- the Southern Baptist Convention, Methodist Publishing House -- and other religious and nonprofit organizations that are exempt from paying taxes. Plus numerous state and private religious colleges and other universities -- and being that we're also the state's capital, we have countless federal, state and city offices - none of which provide any revenue from property taxes.

And in a state which also has no personal income tax that mean that we rely heavily upon sales taxes and user fees (meaning the poor and lowest income people pay a disproportionately higher share of the weight of government and its services).

[hay rick]

71. Old right-wing talking point, old DU debunk.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=284x506

Your story, and its obvious moral, aren't really relevant to what's happening in Camden. The proposed library closing was prompted by a sharp cut in state aid. In New Jersey, towns and cities do not collect sales or income taxes. They rely almost entirely on property taxes for locally generated revenues. Those taxes are absolutely flat. The same millage (general tax rate) applies to all residential property owners in a taxing district and is multiplied by the assessed valuation of the property to determine the local tax bill.

[mbperrin]

107. Property taxes are no factor to business. They are deductible from your

federal income taxes.

However, what business likes is that communities will PAY them millions of dollars to come there, at least for a while. Our own stupid city fathers agreed to pay a call center $2 million dollars a year for 5 years to move here. Guess what happened in year 6? Yep, they moved, leaving behind a vacant building, unemployed people and $10 million out of the community pocket.

If a business cannot make money in a location and must be subsidized, they need to be let go to where they can make money.

This whole business-is-great, people-are-shit attitude and policies have been killing the country since the mid-70s. I'm glad I'll be dead in about 20 years, because I doubt that it can go on much longer than that.

[SoapBox]

19. A Book Burning!

Oh how nice...and God forbid that the books be given away.

Let's burn them instead! Or just dump them in a land fill! Or...

These people must have worked in the Department of Stoopid.

[LostinVA]

24. They are far from stupid -- it's the reality of the situation

And, books get thrown away/recycled every day in all types of libraries all over the world. It's nothing unusual nor appalling.

Camden having to close its free libraries is, though.

[John Kerry VonErich]

21. Is it bad to say there are books worth burning?

ones written by Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, and Beck

[alp227]

22. DESTROY the books? Rich people better save 'em quick!

I guess that's what they asked for if the rich folk didn't want a penny more in taxes. It costs money to preserve literature and history.

[Anakin Skywalker]

39. Hummers and McMansions are More Important! "Don'tcha know?"

[Zorra]

23. Stop the wars for a month and we could fund every library in the country

for a year.

Talk about twisted priorities.

[LostinVA]

25. +1

[valerief]

38. The most important thing our country is for rich people to get richer.

"Small people" be damned!

:banghead:

[Patiod]

86. And Christie is indeed cutting taxes on the rich

while slashing budgets elsewhere. Not that NJ doesn't need some property tax relief or consolidation (which might be helped by consolidation of their many tiny municipalities (all with their own administrators, police, school administration, etc) but closing libraries in one of their most depressed areas? Where the people are in most desperate need of those libraries?

[Odin2005]

26. Destroy books? WTF!?!

:grr:

[Vinca]

28. This is heart breaking. Let's hope someone with bucks steps up to the plate.

[amyrose2712]

29. This makes me want to cry. I feel so lucky to have lived within walking distance to my local

library growing up. I spent a lot of time there.

[Demeter]

31. This Is Just Plain Wrong

as well as stupid.

[katty]

32. You know government&society is truly sick when libraries close &

we have more $$$$ going to more war and more on wall streeet.

[awoke_in_2003]

33. Back in the dark ages...

only the rich and priests were educated. We are headed back that way, slowly but surely.

[Anakin Skywalker]

37. A Good, Old-Fashioned Book Burning? Where the Teabaggers at?

This piece of news is like a wet dream for anti-public everything teabaggers! They will be showing up for the ultimate bonfire party of the year! Expect to see some stupid wigs under tri-corner hats and hateful signs denouncing the evil socialist govt. Get your cameras ready, folks! :)

[roxiejules]

40. The 'locked-down' future

No public libraries....and then this:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/posttech/2010/02/web_scholars_tech_execs_projec.html

Web scholars, tech execs project a less open Internet of the future.

Internet scholars and high-tech business leaders said the future of the Web probably won't be as open as it is today, where users can access any information they choose and often for free. Instead, some experts envisioned a future in which walled gardens proliferated or users called for tailored Web experiences where they were willing to pay more for certain services.

But Susan Crawford, a former economic adviser to President Obama, warned of a greater threat:

“The locked-down future is more realistic as things stand now. We've got a very cautious government, an international movement towards greater control and a pliant public. I wish this wasn't the case.”

:wow:
Catch that phrase?? - "a pliant public"

pli·ant (plnt)
adj.
1. Easily bent or flexed; pliable.
2. Easily altered or modified to fit conditions; adaptable.
3. Yielding readily to influence or domination; compliant.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rasputin1952]

42. Sounds like the system already has it's vermin...

:(

[burnsei sensei]

63. Think education is expensive?

Try ignorance.
The library gives the people the ability to educate themselves.
Its absence gives people the right to be desperate.

[DeSwiss]

43. K&R

"They don't want to see our children grasp a future, but go down the toilet," said Jean Kehner, who described herself as a Camden resident for 76 years.

- But we've got plenty of cash to kill with. There is always money for WAR!!!

[OneBlueSky]

46. if things continue to get worse on the economic front, we're bound to see . . .

a lot more of this kind of thing . . . as available dollars become more and more scarce, the spending priorities will shift heavily to real human needs issues and away from quality of life stuff . . . libraries, parks, the arts, etc. will all be shortchanged as communities focus what money they do have on feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, providing healthcare for the indigent, and restricting education to "the three Rs" while doing away with music programs, libraries, and electives of all sorts . . .

it's when even those funds run out that the real fun will begin . . . not being able to fund libraries is one thing . . . closing food pantries is quite another . . .

[Ken Burch]

47. Rather than destroy the books, why couldn't they give them away?

That could give a lot of people with no money a chance to increase their educations in a way the privatized world is doing all it can to prevent.

How could DESTROYING books ever be justified?

[emilyg]

48. We don't need no stinkin' libraries - we

need more wars.

[blueworld]

49. This breaks my heart & is the final toll of corrupt gummit & corrupt capitalism

I lived in NJ all my life. I watched Camden become a cesspool. I watched the corporations dump an endless variety of filth & toxins into the Camden area while the ever-more-corrupt government raped the city. I watched NJ have the honor of being one of the smallest states in this country with the dubious honor of having 19 Superfund sites that the state government gave press conferences about but never collected a penny from the companies spreading the endless filth. I wrote freelance & for newspapers. I called & emailed & faxed. As did tens of thousands of other activists. But we were tree-hugging liberals, interfering with free-market capitalism. It didn't matter whether GOP or Dem state government. Camden & Newark & Elizabeth & Atlantic City & my hometown there are dying or dead.

As the citizens die, sicken, lack education & the city descends into oblivion, the moguls will come invest money THEN because it's cheap. And THEN they'll do some serious cleaning & developing for rich white bass turds because they can make another fortune. And they'll get fat tax breaks to "rejuvenate" what they destroyed.

And all those children will be living in hell all their lives, if they live. I know I'm a depressing old geezer, but I care so much & I don't know what else to do. Books are my life. Books & libraries could save the lives of those children. Sorry for my lunacy, & thanks for your patience.

[roxiejules]

52. +1000%

I like your words...

[pmorlan1]

50. America ...going down the tubes...piece by piece

This is just heartbreaking.

[Hekate]

55. Desecration. I am aghast.

[momrois]

59. What happened to the Andrew Carnegies of the world?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_library

[OnlinePoker]

62. I was just looking it up

Carnegie donated the money to open the Carnegie Free Library in Camden. I don't know if it's the same there as the thousands of other communities that Carnegie built libraries in, but they aren't allowed to close them as this was the general deal Carnegie made with the towns for the initial funds. Camden residents should look into what their forefathers agreed to in order to build the library. It might be one avenue to save it from closure.

[roxiejules]

67. Need a good attorney in NJ to help keep the library open

Perhaps the original conditions of the Carnegie grant can be used, as OnlinePoker suggested, to force the State/City to fund it.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9904E2DB1030E733A2575BC0A9679C946297D6CF

http://camdenfreepubliclibrary.com/history.htm

Carnegie agreed, "provided a suitable site is furnished and the council agrees to grant a fund annually to maintain and operate the library."

[perdita9]

61. Still glad you made Chris Christie Governor, NJ?

Christie's making a mess of that state.

[Jefferson23]

64. Hmm, and please take a look at what yet another Rethuglican has

contributed to New Jersey. The compassionate conservative serves up his dose of heart:

Here are the facts: The 16,000 families in New Jersey earning more than $1 million will get an average tax break of $40,000 apiece under this budget. At the same time, a single mom working for minimum wage will pay $300 more in state taxes.

The biggest cuts in this budget are painful but unavoidable. That includes the deep cuts in aid to schools and towns, and in property tax rebates. His single biggest move was to short the pension fund by $3 billion. Together, those moves account for the bulk of the governor’s spending reductions.

The problem is the tax break. If the governor had not insisted on that, he could have softened the blow on the needy considerably.

He would not have had to increase taxes on that working poor mom, or make deep cuts in health care, affordable housing, child-care subsidies and school lunches.
So no, the governor is not spreading the pain. This budget plainly favors the wealthy

http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2010/06/nj_gov_chris_christie_signs_an.html


These Republicans do not care if their constituents have enough food to eat, and you think they'll worry about a library??

The rich get richer with Christy and the poor can't even borrow a book.

[The_Casual_Observer]

66. Camden used to be a thriving town full of electronics assembly companies

They all moved to Mexico & China in the first wave back in the 80's

[Patiod]

87. But someone earlier in the thread said it was taxes!

And that, had they kept their taxes low, that manufacturing base would still be in Camden, thriving and paying for libraries? Do you mean to tell me that's not true?

[ooglymoogly]

69. Long rant warning...just needed to write my feelings on what we are losing and have already lost.

This is the tragic face of the disgrace, Reagan, Bush et al and the obscene 1% who have this country in a chokehold: What they have damned this country to. Libraries are the last bastion of free learning of a civilized country. To not fund them is total and willful ignorance.

This is not class warfare. These tailor park trash thugs have no class, no matter with what absurd pretensions they surround themselves;

This is blatant money warfare; And the theft of it; And the warfare against the middle classes to steal everything they have got; By every means possible; By phony wars, blatant government welfare to the rich, amounting to trillions; Back room deals that are a veritable Tzun Tzu on how to transfer the wealth of the nation without a trace, into the hands of thugs and warlords and by the most convoluted logic, make us think we have just been given life itself and have just inherited the earth.

That is not a class struggle; It is an Orwellian nigtmare; A plain and simple robbery. Occam's razor would be looking into the soulless eyes of a mafia cabal of the worlds most ruthless and parasitic dons; And that is the worst insult I can throw at the mafia.

It is a money and its theft from everyone else struggle; By a minuscule 1% of the population who are thugs, stealing the other 99%'s property and resources in broad daylight and being protected from prosecution by our own crooked gubmunt and an equally Orwellian "Justice" dept.

The Guillotine is too kind for these thugs, vampires and parasites. They have blindly destroyed this nation with a few hillbilly, corn pone platitudes, a scratch of the ass and a fart;

Spilling oceans of blood, destroying the most vital population to the success of a country; Its middle class; For nothing less than megalomaniac insanity, criminal, bumfuck greed; Murdering millions for a fist full of dollars and a battleship of power, floating on the ephemeral tides of chaos created solely to hide its theft.

These fucks are no less insane than Hitler, but far more cunning.

The difference? Hitler et al got held accountable by an angry world justice; But now his legacy and its insane megalomania, embodied by that very same 1% that infects this country with its malignancy; Thugs who have stolen, murdered, assassinated, bribed and cheated their way to the top of the money rackets and crooked banking houses; And though their crimes and treasons are well known and well documented by mountains of evidence, are NOT being held accountable as was Hitler and his thugs, but instead carefully protected with the silliest of platitudes;

And that "non prosecution" my friends is the most volatile fuel to the fires of our demise.

I don't suspect anybody has read this far if any have even bothered. So I will ramble on in a much needed catharsis.

These thugs, the usual suspects, throughout history, who are shitting all over everything that ever made any progress or that which made any civilization great; And that which made this country the beacon of the world; Here calling it trickle down economics; While ruthlessly stealing everything in site in the fog of the chaos.

They then indemnify themselves by a criminal takeover of our, never perfect, but none the less, once fine government that watched out for the folks they govern; You know; Government of the people, by the people and for the people, now DOA from 50 some odd years of an unrelenting, power driven assault on it by these same fascist thugs.

This is not class warfare; These pimps, thugs and murdering whores have no class...It is thug warfare and money and power is its crack. A no class mafia cabal is what we are up against.

Old money democrats contribute their fair share to the system when tax tallies are fair and even when it was 90%, and I do not mean any of the raiding pugs, boom and bust banking houses that are the beginning model for the thuggery of turning nothing into vast fortunes with slight of hand and at everybody elses expense. An order of thieves that now grandly calls itself the Orwellian, Republican party;

Also not so, the Dino's Bluedogs, DLCe'r and pugs, the raiding banking houses who down through the history of this country did, until FDR, in boom and bust cycles, periodically rob this country to its knees, then wait cynically till the country pulled itself up by the bootstraps to begin the theft again, and who, no matter what pretentious mc mansions they live in, are all the same trailer park trash thugs leading this country to the slaughter;

New money, Bill Gates et al, are an easily led part of that blind cabal, needing desperately to be accepted, not having a clue, they are fucking the wrong leg.

When I was a child the library was only a half block away in a small park that like many libraries was built with old money and donated to the city. It was my refuge from dysfunction.


I was proud of the old mansion that stood as our towns library; That fed my mind and was free to anybody looking for knowledge and all there had my respect and everyone respected each other; A democratic place.

The Library was that era's free internet. Then too, was the end of an era where everybody played their part; A not always perfect harmony brought to us by old money FDR.

An innocent era that was ripe and plump for pikkin; That a decade later; So it began; With the assassination of a president, the assassination of innocence and the subsequent end, of all that seemed to me good about this country.

Fairness began its long slide into the hell of today's greedy and crooked authoritarian "gubmunt".

Now, both libraries and the internet are in danger from these ruthless thugs.

I was taught by our, now castrated, constitution that "all men are created equal" and by the gravitas of that magnificent proclamation I knew it to be true along with the rest.

And so the constitution is my religion as it must be for any American citizen; It is a fragile religion that must be protected by the arms of Hercules, the legions of its followers.

My religion is under siege and as I have said lo these many years I have been here, I will fight anyone with all I have got, who conveniently and perhaps just for the moment disrespects that religion or carelessly knocks out a block of its foundation, or breaks its covenants for a moments gain, comfort or far richt vote, while weakening and sullying the profoundness embodied in that religion even though it is not a new religion.

The man we call Jesus and men like him, before and after, have defined the difference between good and evil and men of conciseness take heed and so it is embodied in our self correcting constitution; As it was meant to be a work in progress; Correcting the mistakes forced on it even at its beginning, by the same forces trying to destroy it today.

Those who condone such, whether it be O, who treats the constitution he is sworn to uphold, as a convenience, or not, whichever way the wind is blowing, breaking its covenants at will and hacking at its foundations, or any Dem and of course all pugs, have become my enemies for whom I have absolutely no tolerance or respect and their posts here condoning or enabling any of these actions will be be fought with all the anger they deserve and all the snark and damning, I can muster.

The teachings we attribute to the man we call Jesus and others like him wrote our constitution long before our founding fathers ever existed...and both, one after the other are based on the most basic fairness.

"Our" gubmunt, the house of cards that exists today, is nothing but a whorehouse of ruthless thugs calling themselves; And are called; Republicans, Dino's DLC'ers and Bluedogs who cynically and bit by bit trying to destroy our vital constitution.


Without the constitution and any means to fight for it; The foundations of our government are gone, and with it the protections guaranteed under it...up in smoke and the fog of war and its ensuing chaos.

For those of us who understand what the constitution means to this country, understand that none of it can be forgotten or its laws not followed, also must understand that the non prosecution of the treasons against it by the last admin are not acceptable, that any law so blatantly broken means all laws can be broken at the whim of a leader of government rendering the constitution null and void. and we become a fascist state where the laws are non existent for the privileged

It is time for these legions to make an unequivocal stand.


The time has come for a serious revolution based primarily on the trashing of the constitutioin that is vital to our freedom;

The first phase, by non violent resistance to those we know to be responsible. A very loud shunning....by vote, by boycott, by strike, by gathering,by letter by internet, by any and every means left to us. As that opportunity is fast evaporating in the fog of wars and blatant theft, we cannot long sustain.

These are the same dumb forces common sense and progress has been fighting and waring against down through the ages.

This is not a new thing to them to obstruct, it is a dyed in the wool thing to protect their god given right to rob everyone.

Change does not benefit the bigoted, the stupid, the bullies and just plain low class.

No, this is not class war; Except in the sense that these are ruthless bullying thugs, waring against those with true class, those who understand the basic tenants of fairness and who have learned to walk the walk. That an injustice to one of us is an injustice to us all.

And so good night sweet prince.....

[flyarm]

99. I READ YOUR POST ! Most excellent and it should be posted as a Thread all it's own!

Please do post this as a stand alone Thread..it is excellent and I could nit agree more! In fact Half way through reading it , I found tears running down my face!

Please don't let this post go unread. Post it, for all to see and all to feel in their gut!

Thank You.

fly

[ooglymoogly]

101. Thanx for the kind words....I was writing a correction, I guess

as you were writing them. Have always admired your screen name and fly posts.

[ooglymoogly]

100. correction to my post...that is; "men of conscience", not as written

"men of conciseness" making little sense, spell checker gone berserk or more precisely, unmonitored or not seen, due to an aging cataract eye awaiting its turn at lasic.

[superconnected]

74. Wow, I thought this was going to be in some repressive country

but after clicking on the article, I see it's here.

[autorank]

76. This is what they want. They'll do it to the internet soon. n/t k*r

[LostinVA]

85. NJ also has that stupid "Home Rule" form of government

Which leads to corruption, bloated staff and salaries, redundant systems (ie do three townships of 7k people REALLY need their own police department, mayor, etc.?), cray high taxes, etc. A City/County system would solve almost all of this, and make for more efficient and less expensive government.

If NJ politicians REALLY wanted to reduce taxes and bloated State government, they would force thorough a City/County bill, but they really don't want that. They and their buddies want their own little slice of power.

[Patiod]

88. You've hit the nail on the head

And does each tiny municipality need a palatial city hall?

Good luck convincing the citizens of Cherry Hill to throw their lot in with Camden, though (or the citizens of Maplewood to hook up with Newark)

The level of corruption in some of these places is appalling - how many Atlantic City mayors in the past 30 years have been indicted for corruption? Something like ALL OF THEM? It turns people away from the Democratic party, too, as most of these mayors are Dems (I tell my NJ friends that in my PA suburbs, all the corruption was Republican, because absolute power corrupts, regardless of party).

[LostinVA]

90. I was shocked when I lived there for a few years

I would give lectures to people at work about it went they complained about their taxes, and bored cops following people around and running plates and goofing out at the local convenience store. They would say, but how would we do it? I was like, consolidate the PDs, make the longest-serving Chief the Boss, and all the local Mayors, etc., can run for office against the otters, etc. Property taxes would go down at least 30% right away, and more over 10-20 years.

And, not just the cities like AC, but the little townships, too. I was appalled by both the extent of it, and how everyone just shrugged like it was normal, but yet complained about taxes, etc. Mind blowing.

on edit: Yes, every township of between 6-15K have to have their own city hall, PD, etc. It is insane.

[Bragi]

89. America donut need no strinkng liberaries! /nt

[gauguin57]

96. Bragi, you are hilarious.

Biggest laugh I've gotten from DU all week.

[flyarm]

98. What a sad world we live in now. Do not educate the children who need the books the most..but keep

the damn wars going..we need those kids for cannon fodder! Don'tcha know!

Damn this makes me sick, and Disgusted.

Don't let any of those under priviledged kids get their hands on a book to help them have a good future..our government needs them to go to war in the future!

Wow, this makes me so damn angry!

[and-justice-for-all]

106. There is no need to burn the books...nt

[customerserviceguy]

108. I deal with folks in Camden every business day

My company only started doing so about a year ago, they took it over from our Pennsylvania operation.

Things are very, very bad there. Libraries are the least of most folks' daily concerns there. Camden seems to be at the bleeding edge of the crumbling of modern society. I certainly hope they can keep their libraries, but I hope even more fervently that they can keep their electricity, water, sewer, and basic public safety.

[Divernan]

109. Chilling facts. When are we going to see tent cities?

[superduperfarleft]

112. Camden already has (or had) one.

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/041509_Meet_Camden_Tent_City_Residents

[Evasporque]

114. The Republican spurred collapse of America continues....

thanks fuckers, killing our jobs, killing our economy, killing our culture and killing people in all your Ideological wars...

No one is to blame for this but the political right.