Activists rally to 'Free Bradley Manning' in WikiLeaks case

[alp227]

Source: CNN

Quantico, Virginia (CNN) -- Activists rallied outside the Marine Corps base at Quantico, Virginia, Sunday to applaud the man military officials suspect leaked scores of military documents to the WikiLeaks website -- a 22-year-old Army private named Bradley Manning.

"We are here to say that if he, indeed, was the whistle-blower, then we are proud of him," said Medea Benjamin, founder of anti-war group Code Pink. "In the United States that I know and love, transparency is a positive thing."

Manning, who served as an intelligence analyst in Iraq, is the military's focus in the investigation into the largest-ever intelligence leak in American history, to WikiLeaks.org.

He is being detained at Quantico pending a military investigation in a separate case, in which he's charged with eight violations of the U.S. Criminal Code, including for allegedly leaking a secret military video from the Iraq war to WikiLeaks.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/08/virginia.manning.rally/index.html

[sabrina 1]

1. He is a hero. Looking at the latest video which did not come

from Wikileaks, but from independent journalists on the ground in Afghanistan, it is clear that we are being lied to on a regular basis. That is why they are angry at this soldier.

As someone else asked 'Blood on WHOSE hands'? The Wikileaks docs simply verify the work of independent journalists.

Bradley should have the protection all Whistle-blowers should have. If they do not want to be embarrassed then they should stop lying about this war.

I am glad people are standing up for him.

[Pavulon]

2. He is a felon and may have a body count before long. But hey some people

support NAMBLA. I will be glad when he gets a 65 year federal sentence to be served in Florence Colorado. He signed the papers and then dumped it to people who did not even bother vetting it.

Bradley stole classified information and then asked others what else he should steal. He will literally never see direct sunlight again before he dies in federal custody. Never physically touch another person other than a guard.

He is a whistle blower allright.

[Hissyspit]

3. A NAMBLA reference??

Really? No accountability for civilian murderers in the Pentagon and in the Bush administration and you don't whose lives he may save or get killed and you bring a pedophile reference in addition to the Pentagon talking point??

[Pavulon]

4. They just fuck kids, this guy may actually get people shot..

they both sneak around in chat rooms and play I'll show you mine... I digress, the guy is an asshole and will die in federal custody..

Thats why the current Democratic administration is going to use the DOJ to stomp him into the dirt because he is a felon.

Obviously the nambla bit is sarcasm..

[flyarm]

18. You do understand and realize the Pentagon Papers were held back from release for 4 yrs

can you imagine if they hadn't been held back how much smaller a Big Black wall would be in Washington today, with many less 18 and 19 year old names?

Your schtick and our governments doesn't fly anymore buddy!

These wars are based on lies, many human beings have lost their lives for lies....
nothing . but . damned . lies!

The only people that don't know how wide and far those lies are, are Americans..silly stupid Americans!

The sooner someone wakes the dumb fucks in this country up..the sooner these wars will end!

Oh, by the way, since you are so worried about these documents exposing anything or anyone who could have or did commit war crimes..why isn't your ass in Iraq or Afghan????????????

Go ahead..be all that you can be!!

Maybe your name will show up on a wall someday too , and your family can use paper and a pencil and scribble and make a copy of your name ..since ..who knows ..that may be all they have left!

I just love you arm chair warriors!! You know it all ..:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :woohoo: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Pavulon]

117. I went through two SSBI investigations

and understand the law around classified information clearly. Sure lots of shit you can find on google is secret, maybe top secret.

This guy is a bitch and could have released it to the Times or a source that would say, take peoples names out, before they printed it. If it was worth printing.

One war is ending now, like the guy I voted for said it would, the other is not, just like he said it wouldn't. Votes matter.

[TheMadMonk]

29. You really are a piece of work mate. Don't care that they die perpetuating the lie.

Outraged to the point of appoplexy at the thought that some might die putting an end to it.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[xocet]

72. Or what?

[truedelphi]

87. Uh, you wanna know who gets people shot?

Officials constantly planning and executing our endless supply of expensive, and mind boggling military adventures (mind boggling in terms of vast amounts of people killed and injured.)

And many often those fighting the wars do not have any sort of governance as they only answer to Blackwater and to DynCorp.

But hey, imperial nations require the annual sacrifice of women and children.

Same as it ever was.

Vietnam - nation of twenty one million people

Casualties due to war by USA service people
Six million people made homeless, or injured, or killed.

Went from producing and exporting rice to importing rice.

Vietnamese people still suffering deformities of babies in utero, still births, high childhood cancer rates resulting from Agent Orange (illegal) defoliant.

####

Iraq -
Our gallant ally against Iran for much of 1980 to 1990. They fought that war on our behalf.

Population - twenty three million

One million civilian casualties - starting with our shock and awe campaign and continuing as our poor excuse of occupation forces (Far too few in number) allowed sectarian fighting, much of it people from outside the borders of to come in and start trouble.

People kidnapped - often as many as five hundred people a day during the worst of it.

No actual battle strategy once shock and awe was over - our service people simply drove up and down various roads in Iraq until fired upon...


Four million displaced Iraqis now living in Syria, Jordan and other places

Went from being a date producing nation to now importing dates.

Depleted uranium will decimate the population for years to come. (But hey, imperialistic policies are usually genocidal.)

farmers there must not sow conventional crops, but GMO crops, due to deliberate language inserted in the new constitution.

####

Things are also fairly bad in Afghanistan - the BBC had a segment recently about people from Afghanistan attempting to flee. The refugees make it to East Timor and try to go on to Australia, in such large numbers that the officials in Australia plan to tighten immigration policy, so as to avoid being overwhelmed by the numbers fleeing their homeland.

####

And now for the body counts of the people betrayed by our government into fighting against the people of these nations. We are a nation whose media spends huge amounts of money and time on endless discussion of issues such as "freedom" "democracy" and on and on.
from the domino theory of Vietnam, to the "we have to get those who attacked us at Ground Zero" rant. the effectiveness of this propaganda helps persuade thousands of Americans each year to come to the military out of a sense of wanting to defend their country.

The numbers of GI's who died from Iraq I stands at over 70,000. These troops consumed so much in the way of vaccines that caused major disabilities and cancers. Also huge numbers of GI's during this campaign contracted Hepatitis C from the air gun style of vaccinating (AIDS was also passed into the bloodstream of soldiers in this manner.)

We now have over 4,400 troops killed in Iraq II. Huge numbers of soldiers will also see disabilities, many of which will be fatal, occurring as the air gun style of offering enlisted personnel their vaccines is still employed.

We passed the 1,000 death marker in terms of service people killed in Afghanistan back in late May. Just as we are seeing in Iraq, depleted uranium will decimate the population, and affect the bodies of the service people who fight there, for years to come.

[Pavulon]

113. Civilians we elected?(nt)

[LanternWaste]

96. Quite compelling.

"may", "could", "might"

Quite compelling.

[Pavulon]

120. He is for sure on chat logs dumping classified data

and that is quite compelling to the outcome here. He will die in federal custody for thousands of felonies and being a giant moron.

[LanternWaste]

126. Your prognostications are as compelling too.

Your prognostications are as compelling too.

[sabrina 1]

10. Save your outrage. On a scale of one to ten

speaking of felonies, he doesn't even rate in this country. It would not surprise me if he never saw direct sunlight again. Nor anyone else who's been watching this country's slide into third world dictatorship status over the past decade.

He would simply be joining hundreds, maybe thousands of other innocents, detained and tortured for years. Who expects justice in this country anymore than we used to not expect in the Soviet Union and elsewhere?

The fact remains, he tried to expose the lies being told, foolish of him to risk his own life to do so, I will agree there, because in a country where there is no rule of law, what did he expect to happen?

[Pavulon]

119. Apparently since he is on suicide watch

he did not expect to spend his life caged like an animal. The civilians we elected to run our government are doing exactly what they said they would.

He is not innocent and in a different war would be stood up against a telephone pole and shot dead.

You are getting what you voted for, this was made clear in 8 billion stump speeches repeated on television ad nauseum.

[LanternWaste]

136. "He is not innocent" Nor is the leaker of the Abu Ghraid photos...

I would imagine that many people would also like to see the individual(s) who leaked the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse photographs on suicide watch.

I also imagine that you will entertain us with a well-placed tap dance routine justifying a non-existent, precise and relevant moral difference between the two.

I'll simply sit in the balcony and watch the act.

[Pavulon]

138. That guy leaked to his chain of command

he did not leak to wikileaks and Amnesty International is not criticizing his activity.

[Name removed]

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[cowman]

45. He's the enemy

for expressing an opinion? Sounds to me like you are not very tolerant of other opinions if they don't match yours. I may disagree with you on this topic but I defend your right to your opinion.

[IndianaGreen]

15. You would have condemned Daniel Ellsberg as well

and as you do now, you won't serve a single day in uniform to fight the wars that you support.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

115. Not that it matters but I deployed

as a combat engineer to Yugoslavia. Activated while in the NC National Guard. That is a combat MOS but thankfully the shooting was done when we got there. KFOR was fun, right before I was going to get married...

Now ellisberg was not pissed off at the army trying to get attention from the hacker community, or in other words, a little bitch.

Ellisberg released a compiled report that did not list the names of Vietnamese agents helping us.

EDIT: And Iraq obviously, served US interests in NO way and does not and never has had my support.

[chrisa]

95. I stopped reading at your massive hyperbole, of

comparing a whistle blower to a criminal, pedophile organization. Surely you must see how ridiculous that is.

He deserves to be freed.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

101. NAMBLA? Why not the Charles Manson gang? or the Khmer Rouge? Or Josef Mengele?

:eyes:

[Ignis]

105. Because some asshole might actually defend the last 3.

But NAMBLA? Utterly toxic, and therefore a completely inappropriate analogy.

Par for the course from that poster. :shrug:

[Pavulon]

116. They all have hangers on too.. Sad part.

he signed the paperwork before he did it. So now he should die in Florence.

[bushisanidiot]

127. spoken like a true freeptard. they are OBSESSED with "NAMBLA".

But I'm sure you're no troll................

[Pavulon]

128. Sorry, not supporting a felon and giant moron

is just common sense. As for the troll comment well esad.

But you know the 5 human rights groups that agree with me must be trolls too right?

[bushisanidiot]

129. Why are tea bagging republicans so obsessed with all things gay

that seems to be all they talk about.

Isn't that curious?

[Pavulon]

130. Who said gay, I said MORON. Stupid does not care what you use your holes for (nt)

[bushisanidiot]

132. But seriously. The republicans obsess over men having sex with men.

why do you think that is?

they get really worked up over it.

[Pavulon]

134. Ritalin is great. Helps you focus..

topic here is felon dumping names to people who will kill them dead... discuss.

[Pavulon]

131. Oh you mean NAMBLA, they are no more gay than me. They are filth

and have nothing to do with adult consent. They are just filth.

[bushisanidiot]

133. And why are republicans obsessed with NAMBLA? Do they fantasize about

such things all day long? Day in.. and day out?

republicans NAMBLA; republicans and NAMBLA; republicans and NAMBLA.

every. single. day. over. and. over??

[Peregrine]

5. Hero, maybe, sure why not, but

Unless his defense can show the information he released was classified improperly, especially to cover up a crime (which after watching the video, I don't think a crime was committed), he should do time in Leavenworth. He signed the 10/10 document--if you disclose classified information you can be fined $10,000 and/or 10 years.

Actually I am a former counterintelligence agent and it would have been my job to investigate and I would with pleasure.

[sabrina 1]

83. That doesn't sound so bad, I'm sure people would help

raise the money if he needed it.

[cowman]

6. Really?

He's a fucking traitor and should be tried as such. he committed treason during wartime and that, according to the UCMJ, is an offense punishable by death, however, he should be imprisoned for the rest of his miserable, fucking life. I have a daughter, who is a Capt. in the U.S. Army, has served 3 tours in Iraq honorably and she thinks this piece of shit of a human being should rot in Fed. prison for the rest of his life.

[sabrina 1]

7. We don't try traitors in this country or had you forgotten?

We are told to move on from egregious acts of treason such as lying this country into war, torture, and corruption on a scale so vast it boggles the mind.

This soldier attempted to expose the lies. The only problem I have with him is he should have known it would not do any good.

We don't try people who out undercover agents. People like Cheney who didn't care about getting people killed, Ari Fleischer and the rest of the cabal.

And we don't try people who use the DOJ for political purposes in violation of this country's Constitution.

What are you talking about? Try traitors? Then why are so many of the roaming around living like kings?

Your anger is a bit misplaced. This soldier is a saint compared to those who started this whole crime. Good for those who are standing up for him. At least some Americans can keep things in perspective.

[EFerrari]

9. That's right, sabrina. We have to look forward!

lol

[sabrina 1]

13. Sad isn't it? If we could just generate this kind of outrage

over real traitors this country would never have been at war in the first place. But they knew they would be immune, no matter how many laws they violated, so here we are with over 6,000 dead soldiers, and people directing their anger at someone who had nothing to do with it. Using the word 'traitor' as if we cared about such things in this country ...

[cowman]

20. So he's not a real traitor?

obviously you don't know shit about the UCMJ. I don't give a fuck what you say about him, in the eyes of the UCMJ he is a traitor, he released classified info during wartime which is a traitorous act. He should, if found guilty, spend the rest of his miserable fucking life in prison.

[Name removed]

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[cowman]

48. And why is that?

Let's see, I spent 30 years in the U.S. Navy, 4 active, 26 reserve, 35 years as a Firefighter/Paramedic helping other people, and I never once committed treason. He is no fucking patriot.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[sabrina 1]

49. If Cheney and his cabal are not traitors, then no one is.

Obviously 'you don't know shit' about the Constitution or International law. They should spend the rest of their miserable lives in jail, but it has been declared that their crimes are not crimes and we are to forget about them. How in any system that is just, should that not apply to everyone from now on?

[cowman]

54. I never said that they weren't traitors

but that doesn't excuse what Manning is alleged to have done.

[sabrina 1]

58. Of course it excuses him. That is now the rule of law in this country.

A standard has been set. Violate the Constitutions and all International laws that we are a signatory to and 'who cares'? We have to look forward. It would be grossly unjust not to apply the same standard across the board. Torturers are teaching college courses in this country. Torturers who wrote laws to deliberately circumvent the Constitution and International law. This country has now accepted their claim that they were not guilty of anything. We are a lawless society so how can you support singling out a lowly soldier for a punishment that major violators of our laws, people who violated their oaths of office, are no longer subject to? Equality is the key word. He should be treated the same way his superiors were treated.

[cowman]

62. The huge difference is that Cheney and his cabal

are civilians and Manning is not, Manning is subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice while Cheney and his cabal are subject to civilian law, or not. And I mean or not because it seems that some people, like Cheney and his cabal are above the law. I would like to see him and the rest of the people who got us into this useless war frog marched to the Hague and tried as traitors to the world.

[sabrina 1]

74. True, but Bush was CIC of the armed forces. Who is more

responsible for what goes on in the armed forces than the CIC? And the current CIC has stated that there will be no prosecutions of anyone suspected of war crimes. So doesn't that negate the Military Code of Justice? Two CICs condoning war crimes. That is how I see it. I know you see it differently and absent the exoneration of those who are responsible for so much death and destruction, I would agree with you. To let the military handle it. But now, as a civilian I feel it is only just to speak out on his behalf as I see him being treated differently than the CIC who started it all. I understand that you see it from a different POV. I respect that, I really do, I just cannot agree with you.

[cowman]

77. Point taken

And I respect your point of view even if I disagree with it. I am very disappointed in Obama for continuing these wars as it puts my daughter in harms way which just drives me and my wife nuts, and I am very pissed off that the former admin. hasn't been brought to justice by the DOJ.
We also have an older daughter that is a Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Officer, I don't know why our 2 daughters are such adrenalin junkies which makes my wife crazy. Maybe they got it from me, I was a Las Vegas Fighterfighter/Paramedic for 35 years, just retired 6 days ago.

[sabrina 1]

81. Well, I think it's obvious how they came to be adrenalin junkies

lol. But my sympathies are with your wife I have to say, having one of those in my own life and one is enough. She has three! I do not envy her at all ... :-(

Just kidding, I'm sure she is as proud of them as you are.

[cowman]

84. Your right

We are very proud of our daughters, we were very lucky that our 2 kids turned out so good.

[hack89]

144. Lets talk about the Constitution then

just how did Cheney aid a foreign nation in waging war against America?


"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

[flyarm]

32. maybe what they are afraid of and why they have people here making excuses..

is because those documents may prove the leaders of this country's war crimes that were and are ccommitted and being committed and there is no statue of limitations on war criminals and treasonous mtf'ers who have been running our nation!

Maybe just maybe, they TPTB are afraid some of our own may end up at the Hague for horrendous war crimes against humanity!

[cowman]

38. And I don't disagree with

you that bush and his cronies should be tried as war criminals and if found guilty be sentenced to either death or spend the rest of THEIR miserable lives in a prison, however, that doesn't excuse what Manning is alleged to have done and it is treason also according to the UCMJ.

[sabrina 1]

56. On that we agree. However they will never be prosecuted

so my point is that we cannot then selectively prosecute someone for crimes we have basically are no longer crimes. Restore the rule of law, then we can talk about this soldier. Until then, I really don't even want to hear the world treason unless it is attached to a charge against the Bush cabal. This is what happens when you abandon the rule of law.

[cowman]

68. But you are wrong

about treason not being a crime, maybe not in civilian life but in the military it is still a crime punishable by death during wartime.

[flyarm]

80. then bush and cheney should be sitting in a jail awaiting a death sentence..until they are this

young soldier did nothing wrong..if the CIC and Cheney are not charged with treason and war crimes..no one else should be either..

rule of law..it is not meant for some and not others!

[cowman]

85. I have already said

that they should be in jail, but that doesn't excuse what Manning allegedly did.

[hack89]

143. Look at the Constitution for the real definition of treason

it is the only crime defined in the Constitution. It is not what you think it is.

This asswipe clearly meets the actual definition of traitor.

[EFerrari]

8. The mentality that is already sentencing him without due process.

speaks for itself. And ditto for your daughter.

[sabrina 1]

11. I have a relative in the military also,

and he doesn't agree with your daughter. Opinions are a dime a dozen.

Morals though are very rare these days.

[IndianaGreen]

12. His crime was to release a video of us killing a group of civilians in Afghanistan

The video contradicted the official version.

This Pentagon lies as much as it ever did during the Vietnam War.

If anyone should be sentenced to death are those civilian leaders that lied our country into a war in Iraq, and those that continue to lie to keep our troops deployed to 75 different countries under the pretext of fighting terrorism.

[Turborama]

91. The Wikileaks video "Collateral Murder" was from Baghdad, Iraq. Not Afghansitan.

Just need to clear that up as a lot of people seem to get the two wars confused.

[Name removed]

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[cowman]

25. Once again

is that the best you got? Pathetic, just pathetic

[liquid diamond]

27. Who are to determine who is a progressive or not?

Leaking classified information is an act of treason regardless of your political leanings!

[Name removed]

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[cowman]

22. Me thats the traitor?

Is that the best you got? Come on you can do better than that.

[cowman]

26. BTW

say goodby to your post, saying FU to another DU'er will get you deleted.

[flyarm]

24. and what kind of traitors have our leaders been committing war crimes?

and starting and keeping 2 wars going based on lies..when are they held accountable for treason??????????????????

[cowman]

30. So that is a reason

to condone treason from this Manning? 2 wrongs don't make a right.

[liquid diamond]

33. Damn. You beat me by one minute. n/t

[cowman]

35. Sorry about that

[liquid diamond]

37. No worries. Great minds....

[xocet]

47. ...

I did not know that you could get a circle going in just 4 posts. You should ask Pavulon to join in.

[cowman]

52. And maybe just maybe

you could add a constructive argument to this conversation instead of insults.

[xocet]

63. Tja....

You mean like those fantastic comments of yours. I could not hold a candle to them. There is no constructive discussion on this topic. You are just here for the hate and to drool over the possible punishment. Why bother with you?

[cowman]

71. So why are you bothering with me?

[flyarm]

36. oh nooo dear ..the crimes committed before Manning were much much more egregious!

Manning is another one of the Little guys..don;t you know we only go after the little guys..the big guys who commit war crimes and murder..they always walk!

They vacation on your fucking dime on yachts and drink martini's and live the life of leisure!
Ohhh no no no..the ones who commit the real crimes and war crimes against humanity..they never are held accountable..we only like to prosecute the the little guys ..the little ones trying to stop the big guys murderous crimes and wars of lies!

[cowman]

41. Read my post #38

[flyarm]

51. anyone and anybody who can stop these illegal wars of carnage are a hero to me!

got that..

the treasonous bastards are the ones who started these wars of lies and have killed over a million innocent human beings!

When Bush started his illegal war in Iraq over 50% of the citizens in Iraq were under the age of 15..how many of those children have been murdered since?????

and you want to discuss Treason?? Treason?????????????..your excuses are pathetic....go after the big boys first..start there first!

HOW MANY HUMANS HAVE TO DIE FOR A LIE????????.. to make you happy? and to statisfy your pathetic excuses?

[cowman]

53. Once again

2 WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT. GET IT?

[Name removed]

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[cowman]

57. Got to you didn't I?

once again 2 wrongs don't make a right!!!!!!!

[sabrina 1]

44. No, that is not the reason. The reson is that there is no such

thing as treason in this country. There is no 'rule of law'. Is it so hard for you to get that? Our Constitution does not allow for selective prosecution. I'm stunned at the lack of knowledge of how our Constitution works.

Once we were told that we were to forget about violations of our Constitution and the Geneva Conventions in relation to these wars, it was essentially a message to everyone that there is no such crime as treason.

Now you want to prosecute one person, whose only 'crime' was to be a whistle-blower, for a crime that we no longer recognize as a crime.

Restore the rule of law, and then I'll think about people like Bradley and whether or not he can be accused of treason. Then, I would have to measure the extent of what he did against torturers and people who lied to get this country into war. Against people who outed an undercover agent, or who fired US Attorneys to manipulate our election process, the very foundation of this democracy.

Just giving it a few minutes of consideration, in view of all these treasonous acts, he would not even compare. But, given due process, assuming there are facts I am not aware of, I will wait until the rule of law has been re-established before even thinking of accusing him of a crime that no longer exists.

[cowman]

50. Have you ever heard of the UCMJ?

The military has its own penal code different from the civilian penal code.
UCMJ=Uniform Code of Military Justice.

[sabrina 1]

67. I am very aware of it. And I know that it is violated every

single day by Generals and Commanders and people who lie eg, about the deaths of even our own soldiers, like Pat Tillman. There were no consequences under any code for those lies.

I respect that you are obviously a person who does care about the rule of law. And as a former (or current?) member of the military, and I know a lot of very honorable people who are and have served in the military, I understand where you are coming from.

But as a civilian, I look to our civilian leadership for guidance on these matters and have been badly disappointed. The current administration has stated that there will be no investigations into the war crimes of the previous administration, some of them admitted publicly. So, can you see why I cannot go along with prosecuting soldiers who, even if misguided, were trying to expose troubling information that they witnessed? Where is the leadership for them to look up to if the CIC himself says that no crimes will be investigated?

[cowman]

73. On that I agree with you

Bush and his cronies should be arrested and tried in the Hague for crimes against humanity and treason against the world, but you can't excuse what Manning allegedly did or else the next person will just say, fuck it, there is no consequences for committing crimes in the military.
I am U.S. Navy Seabee veteran with 30 years in, 4 active and 26 reserve.

[sabrina 1]

76. Again, I agree with you. That if you ignore

crimes, people will say 'fuck it there are no consequences for committing crimes in the military'. And that is exactly what has happened since this administration decided to ignore those crimes.

But, I am not saying he should not face some consequences. I am sure he expected that when he made his decisions. Daniel Ellsberg did and expected to. I understand your point, that others would feel free to do whatever they want.

But he should not be tried for treason.

I admire you for your service and commitment to doing what is right. I am sorry that our leadership has made it so difficult for those who take their oaths of office seriously. And much as we disagree on this, it is mainly because of the actions of the leadership that we are talking about it all.

Thank you for remaining civil. It is an emotional topic for many people ... :-)

[cowman]

78. And thank you for remaining civil

towards me, unlike some of the other posters here, it is an emotional subject for me because of my youngest daughter. Good debate.

[sabrina 1]

79. I understand, and I truly hope your daughter will return safely

I meant to say, that one of them most important people in my life was a Fireman also, volunteer though. I have the greatest respect for firemen and Emergency personel. They are unsung heroes most of the time which I have to say, doesn't seem to bother them and they do know how to have fun

Your daughter is lucky to have you for a dad which I'm sure she knows. I cannot help feeling sad for this soldier though and it does upset me to see people calling for him to get the death penalty. He has parents, his mother is apparently traumatized since his arrest, and siblings who I'm sure love him.

All of this is why war should never be taken lightly and never fought except when necessary as the consequences are so great. As if I needed to say that! :-)

[cowman]

86. Ok I see your point about the death penalty

enough people have been traumatized by this, I know agree with you that the death penalty should not be advocated for, but there should be some severe consequences for his alleged actions, and at this point, it is just an allegation, if convicted, he should receive a sentence of, say, 20 years at hard labor. I don't know whdt the consequences of his alleged actions will be, but it can never be condoned, maybe understood, but not condoned.
Thank you for the kind words. I actually started out as a volunteer fireman in the town of Tonopah for about 6 months and then a friend of mine was a Firefighter at the NV. Test Site and told me about an opening for which I tested and got hired on, stayed there for 5 years and then in 1980 I tested for and got hired on at LVFR and the rest is history.
Have immensly enjoyed our debate and I'm sure we will disagree again in the future but at least it will be a civil disagreement.
Peace :fistbump:

[sabrina 1]

100. Thank you. I don't know why, but that small concession

from you made me cry. Well, not so small actually. For my part, I do agree that there should be some consequences for the reasons stated already.

However, from my pov, I am hoping that a post from a commenter down-thread who says he was in counter-intelligence and would be investigating cases like this, is correct. He thinks that if the documents were not properly classified, eg, that Bradley could be given a sentence of a $10,000 fine and/or some jail-time. I hope that is the case, and I know in advance you probably would not agree.

Re how you came to make a career out of fire-fighting, my SO signed up as a volunteer on the East End of Long Island. I don't think they have a professional Fire Dept. in most of those little towns. NYC does of course, but most of the little towns out east on LI, have volunteer-run depts and they really are great and I think very well supported by the communities.

I've enjoyed it too and I think we both moved a tiny bit which is a start lol!

[cowman]

102. Now that I've slept on it and had time to think

I've got to agree with you on his punishment if those docs where wrongly classified. you wore me down LOL.
Now that I've retired I volunteer once a week at our local FD which is Paid/Volunteer, the Fire Chief is just tickled pink that he gets a 35 yr. veteran Paramedic for free once a week. Once my wife retires from American Medical Response in 3 months, we plan to explore this beautiful country of ours.

[sabrina 1]

103. That is so nice of you to say. I really wasn't trying to

wear you down lol, but I admit, I am glad if I did :-).

I was just worried about some of the comments that called for more violence against this young soldier, rather than relying on our system of justice. Thank you for giving it the thought that you have.

I am sure your local FD is thrilled to have your expertise as they need all the help they can get.

When you start traveling the country, you must visit the East End of LI and contact some of their local FDs. They would welcome you with open arms, probably use it as an excuse to have a party. The Ladies Aux. would love to prepare some of their excellent home-made food for you and your wife.

[cowman]

104. I plan to visit

all the FD's I can and I will have plenty of LVFR and PVFR patches to trade, I have always said that Volunteer Depts. are more motivated because they don't do it for money, they do it for love of their community and I have the highest respect for them.

[LanternWaste]

97. when one wrong act is designed wholly to reduce the effect of another wrong act...

"2 wrongs don't make a right..."

As per Euripides (The Suppliants), when one wrong act is designed wholly to reduce the effect of another wrong act, and is a lesser wrong in both form and function, absolutism is trumped and context becomes valued.

[Ignis]

106. Obviously, you've never heard of "tone at the top."

I'm amazed that someone could rack up so many years of military/LEO experience and never, ever, ever have heard that phrase.

:freak:

[cowman]

108. I was never LEO

I was a Firefighter/Paramedic and most of my military service was as a reserve, who said that I never heard that phrase?

[Ignis]

109. Ah, so you've heard it, but don't agree with it?

Sorry for the mistake re: your LEO experience. I obviously read your job history upthread a trifle too quickly.

[cowman]

110. I was and never claimed to be LEO,

thats my daughter, and most of my military career was in the reserves. And how do you know I have never heard of that term? Making some pretty wild assumptions aren't you?

[Ignis]

112. The only wild assumption on my part is that you took your oath seriously.

Sorry for that. For some people, it's just a bunch of words--in the same way the Constitution is "just a goddamn piece of paper" to others.

[cowman]

114. I'm not sure if you insulted me or not

I will assume that you did not and I did take my oath of enlistment seriously and my oath of duty, and you are correct that many people just think it's just a bunch of words and Bush was an asshole who should have been impeached and brought to the Hague to face war crime charges.

[Ignis]

118. We agree 100% on that point.

My reference to tone at the top above is that it's ludicrous to prosecute grunts for treason while we let the CIC, his VP, and his SoS get away with murder.

[cowman]

123. I would agree with you

except that if you don't prosecute for releasing allegedly classified docs, than the next person may release docs that will truly hurt the U.S. thinking that nothing will happen to them because of this case. For all we know, that's what Manning was thinking, Hey, Bush wasn't prosecuted so what do I have to worry about. However at this point it is only an allegation, I will reserve judgement until I see all the facts, I did jump to conclusions earlier and a very kind poster debated with me and I have since changed my mind about the possible use of the death penalty and prison time.
I just love it when we can debate civilly here.

[liquid diamond]

31. Two wrongs don't make a right, but you knew that. n/t

[flyarm]

40. who's going to hold those accountable for the first two wrongs ?

The first one Bush for starting a war of lies..the second Obama for keeping the wars going!

And I haven't even touched on torture , illegal Renditions, wire tapping , putting children into coffins and putting bugs in the coffins..murder..water boarding..don't get me started..I won't stop!

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

75. Wow. What an asinine comment

Is that the best you got? Come on, you can better than that can't you?
I support the Rule of Law in the military, This Manning allegedly released classified info during wartime which is a crime according to the UCMJ. How does that make me a RW?

[liquid diamond]

21. This isn't the way to end the wars. Fucking traitor.

I hope he rots in jail.

[cowman]

23. Ditto n/t

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

34. & Daniel Ellsburg too? ELLSBERG SUPPORTS WIKILEAKS AFGHAN OCCUPATION DAIRIES

ELLSBERG SUPPORTS WIKILEAKS AFGHAN OCCUPATION DAIRIES
...
Excerpt: Why it Is Important That This Kind of Information Gets Out ?
Ellsberg: " One of the most important messages or conclusions to be drawn from the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago is what they didn’t reveal, and that was: In some 7,000 pages of high-level discussions, they didn’t reveal a single compelling or even remotely realistic basis for continuing the war. Nor did they answer the question of: Why are we there? And that’s the conclusion: that there wasn’t an answer to be given. It couldn’t be inferred from a very small release of papers, say 10 pages or 20 pages. You really had to see that, year after year, nobody was coming up with or reporting any kind of success. "

" And the same is true with this six-year ( Afghan ) compilation to show that, year after year, the process really isn’t changing, and that the more we increased our presence in Afghanistan, the stronger the Taliban was growing. I’m sure, by the way, that this is still the case. A leak I would like to see right now is what the change in Taliban strength has been over these past seven months of President Obama’s new strategy. Don’t wait for the administration to release that because I’m sure it would be very embarrassing to the strategy. I’m sure that their official estimates of Taliban strength as of July are greater than the estimate in December when Obama initiated that strategy. "

http://www.truth-out.org/wikileaks-qa-with-daniel-ellsberg61831

[flyarm]

42. been on DIGG lately????????? eom

[ProudDad]

141. Since your Fascist world view is the one that's operative

here in the Corporatist USAmerikan Empire...

You'll probably get your wish...

[snot]

28. Yay, Code Pink!

[annm4peace]

46. Vets for Peace AND Iraq Veterans Against the War support Manning

both groups had people at the protest.

There are Generals who said Manning but the troops at risk, but the media isn't reporting the thousands of Veterans for Peace and Iraq Veterans Against the War who support Manning and what he did.


***********************************

july 27, 2010
WIKILEAKS REVELATIONS WILL SPARK MASSIVE RESISTANCE TO AFGHANISTAN WAR

by Veterans For Peace President, Mike Ferner

Today the war in Afghanistan begins to crumble under the weight of government lies at home and criminal behavior on the battlefield.

Since the beginning of the war in Afghanistan nine years ago, Veterans For Peace has been waiting for the day when internal documents would reveal what we have known all along -- this war is illegal, immoral and we must add, it is bankrupting our nation at a time when millions of Americans have been thrown out of work and thrown out of their homes.

Neither Wikileaks nor the soldier or soldiers who divulged the documents should be prosecuted for revealing this information. We should give them a medal.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/


**********************************************************

http://www.ivaw.org/node/6078

Joint Statement from IVAW, MFSO, and VFP

Veterans and Military Families Say Pentagon Statements on Wikileaks Aim to Cloud Real Issues

Our organizations represent veterans and military families. We have personally carried the burden of the war in Afghanistan, along with wars past. We are glad that the truth about the war is getting out to the public with the recent 92,000 documents on Wikileaks. Hopefully, this will inspire a massive outcry against this war that is wreaking so much destruction to our exhausted and demoralized troops and their families while draining our national coffers.

Obama administration officials are trying to spin events in their favor. Their words must be carefully examined. On the one hand, in an effort to downplay the significance of the release, we are told the documents contain no new information.

On the other hand, some high ranking members of the U.S. military are trying to: 1) intimidate anyone else from doing the same thing and 2) turn public opinion against whoever leaked the current documents. Towards those goals, we are told that grievous harm will surely come to many Afghans and U.S. military personnel - if not now then certainly later.

A more damning statement could hardly be imagined than this one from Admiral Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, "The truth is they might already have on their hands the blood of some young soldier or that of an Afghan family."

While we certainly do not wish to see one additional person put at risk in this tragic, wrongheaded war, we must state the following as clearly as we can.

As veterans and families with members in the military, we consider statements like Admiral Mullen's to be nothing more than calculated attempts to turn public attention away from the real problem - the ongoing occupation of Afghanistan that has already caused the deaths and injuries of many thousands of innocent people all the while millions of Americans are jobless and face foreclosure or eviction.

This suffering in Afghanistan and this bleeding at home will continue as long as our troops remain in that country. Congress must stop funding this war. We must bring our troops home now, take care of them properly when they return and pay to rebuild the damage we have caused to Afghanistan.

# # #



Founded in 1985, Veterans For Peace is a national organization of men and women veterans of all eras and duty stations spanning the Spanish Civil War (1936-39), World War II, the Korean, Vietnam, Gulf and current Iraq wars as well as other conflicts cold or hot. It has chapters in nearly every state in the union and is headquartered in St. Louis, MO. Our collective experience tells us wars are easy to start and hard to stop and that those hurt are often the innocent. Thus, other means of problem solving are necessary. Veterans For Peace: Exposing the true costs of war and militarism since 1985.

Military Families Speak Out is an organization of people opposed to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan who have relatives or loved ones who are currently in the military or who have served in the military since the fall of 2002.

Iraq Veterans Against the War is a national organization comprised of active duty, guard, and reserve troops and veterans who have served since 9/11. We call for immediate withdrawal of all occupying forces from Iraq and Afghanistan, reparations to the people of those countries, and full benefits for returning service

[superconnected]

66. +1000

[sabrina 1]

69. Excellent. Thank you for those links ...

[Ignis]

107. What would they know? Bunch of chickenhawks!

Oh...wait....

[Soylent Brice]

61. K&R

[earcandle]

70. Manning is not associated with this 92K release, he released the video with the attack

on journalists who were shot.  

They worked for Reuters, a respected business concern until
recently... 

But he seems to be scapegoated for being associated with this
body of work just released.

[Dystopian]

82. Courage to Resist!

http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/

Bradley Manning Defense Fund
'424 individuals have donated a total $22,213 as of 11am PST Aug. 6, 2010'

Donate:
http://www.bradleymanning.org/

peace~

[go west young man]

88. Hypothetical's: We are Germany in 1939.

German officer Manning releases information that helps expose the coming German invasions. Is he a traitor or a hero?

We are back in 1968 and Private Bradley releases info that exposes the US cover ups of massacres in Vietnam. Is he a traitor or a hero?

It's Russia under Stalin and Comrade Manning gives secrets to the west that expose secret Russian kidnapping programs. Is he a traitor or a hero of the state?

The universal answer is that at the end of the day we are all human beings and soldiers are human beings who sometimes defy the governments
they serve for the betterment of the world. The US has for a long time been lying about the wars and covering up killings. Thanks to Manning we have proof of that.
That proof will help bring about change in the world and could eventually lead to the wars ending.

The real bad guys who lied us into war are hiding in plain site but America is in denial and doesn't want to deal with that issue. Even though it is a thousand times
greater in importance than Bradley Manning's so called crimes.

Decades from now Manning will be considered a hero. For today he is just another scapegoat in a country that is like a modern version of Rome. The citizens need
their false infotainment and their sensationalist blood lust to cover up what their own consciousness's can't deal with. The reality that their whole country and all it
professes to stand for, and what their sons and daughters are fighting for, is a lie. This veteran of the U.S. Marines who fully understands the UCMJ having been
prosecuted by my commanders three times for various offenses believes Bradley Manning is the best this country has to offer. He did something many people
wouldn't have the spine for. Obama should give him a god damn medal.

[sabrina 1]

99. Nice post, thank you. You illustrate nicely how history

will view this ... we do need more, not fewer, people who will stand up.

[Pavulon]

122. You get to Vote, not commit felonies to get your way

just because what you want is not being carried out by those elected does not allow you to break the law to try (poorly) to circumvent the system.

[Pavulon]

121. UCMJ will get him dishonorable discharge, FBI will put him in Florence

ADX to die for the thousands of felonies he committed. The civilians we elected are doing exactly what they said they would do.

Obama's DOJ will show him no mercy. This guy dumped raw data, names and unrelated info not released by a guy who may see his life could be in jeopardy.

He did not go to the NY times, he went to the internet to get attention from a community of people who he trying to impress.

[MH1]

124. Exactly

sanity seems to be in short supply, thank you for providing some.

There might have been an honorable way to do it ... (might).... but he certainly did not choose it. And in any case he should have known damn well if he released classified information, for whatever reason, he would have to pay a steep price. I hope he feels it was worth it. (I'm betting he doesn't. Stupid kid. Never should have had access to that much data in the first place. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.)

[go west young man]

137. You miss the point of my post entirely.

In my mind your view is nationalistic and exactly the problem with these kinds of debates.
I can only assume then that you would agree with the "state" in all the scenarios I provided.
The question is a humanistic moral question in regards to releasing information for the greater
good of mankind. Defense of the state in these scenarios is redundant according to history.
There are many examples of soldiers and whistle blowers leaking information that leads to a
better state. As I said the US may find him guilty but in the future he will be considered a
brave soldier.

As far as the UCMJ goes most civilians would be surprised to learn that he'll probably be
represented by a military lawyer who's own promotion is contingent upon the decision of the
prosecuting command. In other words his lawyer will be working for the prosecution indirectly.
There is no real military justice. He'll be found guilty before any evidence is given. After all the
military is not a democracy. It's a dictatorship. Americans miss that point about their own military.
Nationalism can cause blindness. I'll just encourage you to get from behind your flag and think
about things from a more human global perspective. By doing so you'd be doing America a much
greater service.

[Pavulon]

140. The military will not try him. They will just boot him. The DOJ

will try him and convict him based on computer logs of his crimes and he will be sentenced by a civilian court to die in federal custody.

So unless you do not respect the Federal Court system either you position is incorrect.

Bravery has nothing to do with publishing the names of people who help the US so the enemy can execute them.

[go west young man]

146. I'm a nihilist at heart so I can't say I respect the Federal Court system or the UCMJ.

They both reek of rampant hypocrisy. You and I are completely idealogical adverse. You miss my larger
point about what really matters in the course of human events. I do not doubt he will be imprisoned.
Once again I am pointing out that you are a nationalist and your view point derives from a patriotic
belief that anyone leaking information (even if it's to expose war crimes) is a criminal themselves.
That viewpoint would have to be applied then also to Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, or Pol Pot's
Cambodia. You hold the view that it's more important to be a "good soldier" than to expose war
crimes, i.e. "leak information". I hold the opposite view and approach that view from a non-
nationalistic perspective. I see many countries. Not just one with it's laws that apply randomly.
The ruse of Manning leaking names is a tired one already as the info that Assange put out is
over 3 years old. And a final point. Military secrecy is not a secret in the 21st century. Manning
just provided proof of what we all knew already. He proved a positive. The U.S. has been covering up
war crimes and lying to us about the state of the war. Now I ask you who is the real patriot?
You with numerous years of service who just goes along and waves they're flag and says my country
right or wrong? Or the young man who exposes the hypocrisy at the cost of their own freedom or
in the worse case, their life? You avoided my analogies before. Please find the time to answer them
for curious readers of our debate.

[Pavulon]

148. Labels are pointless. Take Nationalist

what is nationalist about enforcing law in federal court? Do you agree with Timothy McVeigh or the Pollard case? Should pollard be jailed for helping Israel? Or does this heroics stop somewhere?

Both were tried in federal court for their crime. The age of the information will not save the person named. Just like if a list of people who cooperated with federal agents in NY neighborhoods to convict mobsters was released. They are dead the same.

What war crime are you referring to? Accidental killing of civilians is not a war crime, it is overhead. The people that fund and order this was to continue are responsible for the death it causes. There is no war crime on the tape published or in any document published to this point.

Why dont you address the 5 international human rights organizations that have criticized the leaking of names?

I am an honest person who has respect for the law and agreements I signed. I think china is a neat place, if for money or fame I disclose information does that make me a hero?

[go west young man]

152. A couple of things for ya.

McVeigh was a murdering nut case with a nationalist agenda adverse to that of the US.
Pollard was a spy for Israel who who was profiting from his crimes.
Manning sought to expose US crimes for the betterment of the US in the long run.
He did not seek money. His motives were good. Unlike your two ridiculous examples.
Labels do matter. Especially when someone such as yourself attempts to paint everyone with the same brush.
Your reference to "overhead". What is that?
And your China reference has me completely lost. Your post is all over the place.

[gaiangreentree]

145. medal

Wish that should translates into will.
:(

He bravely served his country at the expense of his own freedom.

[Pavulon]

150. What exactly has he accomplished?

the only metal he will see is shackles.

[gaiangreentree]

151. He revealed traitors in our government

His postings gave indication and verification of our actions with Pakistan.

He will be a political prisoner forever.

[laughingliberal]

89. K & R nt

[defendandprotect]

90. K&R --

[laughingliberal]

92. K & R nt

[midnight]

93. Let's give this case some sunshine, and see what is going on here.

Eight violations of the U.S. criminal code that involves LEAKING a secret military video. Last time this country was concerned about the leaking of a secret agents name and the repercussions of this persons contacts, our govt. let the person go free. So let's see how much emphasis gets put on the laws of leaking here?

[stray cat]

94. Dick Cheney leaked as well - and exposed a cia agent - good for him!

[harvey007]

98. Exchange Cheney for Manning

Manning is just a kid with a social conscience trying to do the right thing, whereas Dick Cheney should have known better, yet he willingly broke the law and endangered the lives of Valerie Plame and other CIA agents.

[Ignis]

111. The Penguin will never see the inside of a prison.

We're "moving on," "looking forward," and "keeping our powder dry," donchaknow?

It's much more important to prosecute people at the lowest levels of authority, rather than those at the top. Just like Abu Ghraib, etc.

[Salander]

125. But Cheney did it for the good of the country, whereas

whoever leaked to Wikileaks did it for some other reason. . . like maybe he has a conscience.

[LandR]

135. Should have left the US

Since Manning had already been charged with the release of the helicopter civilian shooting footage, why didn't he leave the US before wikileaks released these Afghanistan War reports? With the international nature of wikileaks, Manning must have been aware of countries he could go to for protection.

[Pavulon]

139. He is in the military, thats how he stole the information..

the level of compromise you make in inversely proportional to the number of places you can hide. Manning would have been in countries with no us extradition, but that does not mean he could not be stuffed in a car trunk and flown home on a c130. It has been done before.

[ProudDad]

142. He wasn't in the US...he was mired in the Iraq Quagmire (n/t)

[BeFree]

147. Thank you Mr. Manning

I hope you are set free very soon. And the real criminals take your place in confinement.

[Pavulon]

149. He will die in a cell next to Pollard..

with a stack of felonies. Or is pollard a hero too?