Group says Gandhi racist, plans to protest statue

[Francesca9]

Source: San Francisco Chronicle

A group billing itself as the Organization for Minorities of India plans to protest today to demand the removal of the bronze statue of Mohandas Gandhi that has sat in the plaza behind the Ferry Building since 1988...

But the group - which says it was formed four years ago to publicize the oppression of Christians, Buddhists, Dalits, Muslims, Sikhs and other Indian minorities considered to be on the lowest rungs of the Hindu caste system - says Gandhi was a racist who harbored violent urges.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/10/02/BAMM1FN429.DTL&tsp=1

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The want Martin Luther King instead and I could live with that.

[GodlessBiker]

1. How about adding MLK Jr.?

[truedelphi]

2. Film at eleven

Group reveals Jesus Christ liked to crucify people.



<sarcsm meant>

[Xipe Totec]

3. The Ministry of Truth, hard at work

Fire up the memory hole!

:eyes:

[Book Lover]

31. If you are at all interested in what George Orwell actually had to say about him...

"Reflections on Gandhi" http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/essays/gandhi.htm

"Of late years it has been the fashion to talk about Gandhi as though he were not only sympathetic to the Western Left-wing movement, but were integrally part of it. Anarchists and pacifists, in particular, have claimed him for their own, noticing only that he was opposed to centralism and State violence and ignoring the other-worldly, anti-humanist tendency of his doctrines."

The rest is short, informed reading. I recommend it.

[hlthe2b]

4. Gandhi inspired MLK.... fine to having them both..

but that is insane to take his statue away...

[jobycom]

5. "...in my professional career, I've had no greater honor than having to defend Gandhi."

"I suppose Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela must have their critics as well," Arts Commission President P.J. Johnston said. "These folks are free to lodge their protest, but I doubt that our commission will move to take down the statue."

Johnston, whose day job is crisis management, added: "I would just say that in my professional career, I've had no greater honor than having to defend Gandhi."

end

[Turborama]

6. The same thing happened in South Africa in 2003

Gandhi branded racist as Johannesburg honours freedom fighter

Rory Carroll in Johannesburg
The Guardian, Friday October 17 2003

It was supposed to honour his resistance to racism in South Africa, but a new statue of Mahatma Gandhi in Johannesburg has triggered a row over his alleged contempt for black people.

The 2.5 metre high (8ft) bronze statue depicting Gandhi as a dashing young human rights lawyer has been welcomed by Nelson Mandela, among others, for recognising the Indian who launched the fight against white minority rule at the turn of the last century.

But critics have attacked the gesture for overlooking racist statements attributed to Gandhi, which suggest he viewed black people as lazy savages who were barely human.

Newspapers continue to publish letters from indignant readers: "Gandhi had no love for Africans. To (him), Africans were no better than the 'Untouchables' of India," said a correspondent to The Citizen. Others are harsher, claiming the civil rights icon "hated" black people and ignored their suffering at the hands of colonial masters while championing the cause of Indians.

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/17/southafrica.india

[CJvR]

7. Well there is some evidence.

Ghandi's time in South Africa was hardly his shining moment.

[Posteritatis]

17. Didn't Ghandi himself recognize that? (nt)

[marybourg]

18. Yes. And it was widely known among black intellectuals in this country at the time.

He was no hero to them. There has been a certain amount of "whitewashing".

[ZombieHorde]

8. Interesting, Gandhi was a wife beater; I wonder if he was a racist.

MLK is almost always a great choice for statues in the US. His logic, elegance, and courage are hard to beat.

Gygax would be a great choice too.

[liberation]

10. I heard he also drank fresh baby's blood every morning...

I mean if we're gonna make up shit, and use reactionary talking points... let's do it right people!

[ZombieHorde]

14. Gandhi wrote about his wife beating in his autobiography.

He said he beat her often.

[liberation]

16. Cite please?

[ZombieHorde]

21. And I have never forgiven myself the violence of which I have been guilty in often having pained my

One thing, however, I must mention now, as it pertains to the same period. One of the reasons of my differences with my wife was undoubtedly the company of this friend. I was both a devoted and a jealous husband, and this friend fanned the flame of my suspicions about my wife. I never could doubt his veracity. And I have never forgiven myself the violence of which I have been guilty in often having pained my wife by acting on his information. Perhaps only a Hindu wife would tolerate these hardships, and that is why I have regarded woman as an incarnation of tolerance. A servant wrongly suspected may throw up his job, a son in the same case may leave his father's roof, and a friend may put an end to the friendship. The wife, if she suspects her husband, will keep quiet, but if the husband suspects her, she is ruined. Where is she to go? A Hindu wife may not seek divorce in a law-court. Law has no remedy for her. And I can never forget or forgive myself for a having driven my wife to that desperation.

http://www.forget-me.net/en/Gandhi/autobiography.pdf

Chapter 7, page 13.

[liberation]

26. Interesting, thanks

[Turborama]

27. It's very awkward English. "often having pained my wife by acting on his information"

That "pained" could be read in various different ways. There's some punctuation missing somewhere, too..

The key sentence: "I have never forgiven myself the violence of which I have been guilty in often having pained my wife by acting on his information."

[liberation]

28. True...

... however reducing Ghandi to just a "wife beater" out of a single paragraph sans specifics, seemed to me too much of an eager extrapolation.

[Nevernose]

33. There are other stories, too

I think there's a lesson here, though, about the flaws of human nature, our natural tendency to deify our heroes, and how humans are always somehow dissapointed at learning that another human being is just that -- only human.

And I don't care what mistakes he made, honestly: he recognized them as mistakes and led a life that more than made up for his failings.

[merqz]

36. I care

I care about both. I care about the great things he did and stood for. I ALSO care about the mistakes he made. That's called wanting to know the full story, the real story, not only the part of history that makes me feel good. It doesn't detract from the fact that Gandhi was a great man, to understand both his GOOD and BAD aspects.

[Nevernose]

44. I think that's the point I was trying to make

Not that it should be ignored, but that we shouldn't make gods from men -- we are all flawed, and we have all done things we regret.

[merqz]

45. exactly. nt

[L.Torsalo]

58. Good point.

I think when judging others, we forget we too are worthy of condemnation for something...no matter how good we may be otherwise.

[ZombieHorde]

43. Gandhi still did great things, but he was extremely human. nt

[Lorien]

51. No he didn't

He didn't "beat her often" and what domestic violence did happen between them he regretted deeply. He later said that a man could not shame a woman without shaming himself as well. And he sure as hell was no racist.

[ZombieHorde]

52. Check it out...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4562129&mesg_id=4562404

[Ian David]

39. E. Gary Gygax? n/t

[ZombieHorde]

42. Yes, Gary Gygax. He invented D&D. nt

[Xithras]

57. Gandhi was a reflection of his time.

There are a number of racist writings attributed to him, during his younger years in South Africa. There are a number of writings from those years that were extremely critical of black South Africans (comparing them to animals), and defending white rule.

Gandhi was changed by his experiences as a medic in the Boer War, and by the different perspective he had on his homeland after returning to India. Most authors dismiss his earlier racism as the bias of the uneducated young.

[ZombieHorde]

59. If people accepted the fact their heroes are deeply flawed, just like the rest of us,

we would not have to become dismayed by their faults.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AngryAmish]

11. and he drank his own pee

[BillH76]

25. This is a myth.

The myth was spread by an unreliable scandal sheet called the Weekly World News, whose logo is Batboy. http://weeklyworldnews.com/category/headlines/

You may be confusing Gandhi with Prime Minister Morarjee Desai, who did indeed drink his own urine.

[Ian David]

40. That's better than drinking someone else's pee. n/t

[nyy1998]

12. He would kick a puppy every morning

It's very well documented.:silly:

[smirkymonkey]

60. LOL!

:rofl:

[Taverner]

13. What the...?

Does it matter that he died because he proposed solutions for Muslim disenfranchisement?

[No Elephants]

15. Some of our most revered Americans were racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-Semitic and otherwise

imbued with disgusting beliefs and behaviors, from Governor Bradford to President Nixon, to who knows when and where it will finally end? Their portraits and statues abound, including in our White House (which slaves built).

One of our Party's relatively modern heroes, JFK, (whom I revere), lavished praise on one of them, Jefferson, who "owned" his own offspring. At least one other, FDR (whom I also revere) would not move on certain race issues because he feared for his re-election and his Party. And so on.

I have no comment on which statues should or should not remain in India.

[Francesca9]

19. The statue is in San Francisco

[No Elephants]

50. Thanks. I still am unable to judge either Ghandi or his critics.

[Dogmudgeon]

20. I heard from a Friend of a Friend that the Dalai Lama pulls the wings off butterflies

So it's gotta be true!

--d!

[Javaman]

55. Then he flutters them in the air...

forcing the "butterfly effect" to exact his master plan!

[sonomak]

22. If Gandhi goes, put an American there

I nominate an American like MLK or Cesar Chavez, not Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar

[laylah]

23. OMG...

what idiots! I wish I had more "sage" words to say but these words were the first to pop into my brain.

Jenn

[boppers]

24. A book on the topic (among other things):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi_Behind_the_Mask_of_Divinity

Of course, MLK Jr. wasn't perfect, either.

[Judi Lynn]

29. It's common knowledge he stole people's used underwear from their clothes hampers.

He stood behind trees and giggled at people walking by.

He put condoms in children's Halloween bags.

He knowingly gave bogus information to people who asked him for directions.

Was seen dropping brown paper bags with excrement on people's porches, setting them on fire, ringing their doorbells.

What kind of person really wants to destroy someone's reputation who has been considered a basically good person? I don't respect her/him. Who has the time, the inclination, or the lack of character needed to do this?

[merqz]

35. lots of basically good people (heck, ALL of them) are flawed

to greater or lesser extents and acknowledging that Gandhi was imperfect, and did some questionable things is not "destroying" his reputation. Nobody should be subject to achieving secular sainthood (or just plain saint) status, such that none of their negatives can be discussed.

If you only know positives about any person, that is proof positive that you are not properly informed.

[Judi Lynn]

37. It's the extraordinary things they've done normal strangers tend to remember,

particularly if these actions have benefited other people, or achieved important humanitarian goals which had not been met earlier.

[Ian David]

41. Most of the actual Catholic saints were pretty terrible people. n/t

[Odin2005]

30. Even "enlightened" people can be assholes.

[Book Lover]

32. If it means we here in San Francisco in particular, and the West in general, can

have a level-headed conversation about the man he was, instead of the story and free-floating feeling of white-guilt goodwill we cloak around him, everyone, including the man himself, will be the better for it.

[Scruffy1]

34. He is particularly dislike by the Sikhs

When Baghat Singh was executed in 1931 many Sikhs believed that Ghandi could have spoken up and stopped the execution but refused to do so in effect throwing the Sikhs under the bus. Make no mistake that he is was only mortal and a politician. i am always amazed that most of the people I talk to that say they revere Ghandi never even bothered to read the the book (his autobiography).
I greatly admire the man in the reality he lived in. He was a great leader and organizer and knew how to use the media to full advantage. To make him a Saint does him an injustice.

[Francesca9]

46. The Sikhs live in San Francisco and they never forget anything.

[Vehl]

48. Well, Gandhi didnt do anything to SAve Chandra Bose Either

Bose was the President of the Indian National Congress for two consequential terms. He later broke with Gandhi and Nehru and started an armed struggle for Indian independence, and died because of that. Gandhi didn't do anything about that either. So to claim that somehow Gandhi did not special attention to Baghat Singh seems questionable..when one looks at the above incident.Gandhi was steadfastly holding on to his ahimsa concept.



Interestingly, I started a thread about Gandhi and Bose yesterday

Divergent paths to the same goal, Gandhi and Bose
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9244480

[Ian David]

38. Just tell them it's not a statue of Gandhi, it's a statue of Ben Kingsley. n/t

[Vehl]

47. This protest is wrong on so many levels.

For starters the basic premise of this group is wrong.

Caste based discrimination is NOT inherent to Hinduism, it was a concept which used Hinduism and other religions(yes other religions) to its advantage.

The same way the Feudal system in Europe was propped up by the Catholic Church for centuries. Those in power try to hold on to their power, this human tendency is found all over the world. And they try to subvert religion, ethnic politics...natural enemities..etc etc to derive popular support for it.

Dr Ambedkar (a person I respect) was sadly wrong when it came to the crux of his protest against Hinduism. Him and some of his followers claimed that "Hinduism supports the caste system" and converted to Buddhism.

Little did they know, that just 20 miles south of India, on the Island of Ceylon(now Sri Lanka) the Buddhist Sinhalese have a VERY RIGID caste system. So much so that even the selection of Buddhist monks are dictated along caste lines.

for example, there are two main Buddhist Nikkayas(scools/monastries of Buddhism) in Lanka, and they make selections based only along caste-lines. The Upper caste Buddhists of the central Highlands would always select an upper caste Buddhist monk as the head abbot.


The same could be said about Christianity in India and Sri Lanka. Even to this day, there exist Churches where lower caste Christians are not allowed.

Thus Caste is not based on Hinduism at all. Contrary to what Dr Ambedkar Mistakenly believed.
Most people tend to forget that this supposedly lower caste Ambedkar was the one who was allowed to write the Indian constitution!!.He was given an honor that none of the other so called higher castes never had.interestingly enough, those who protest fail to mention this...as usual. They pander half truths.


apart from the Caste issue, there is no evidence to support the claim that Gandhi harbored violent urges. This seems to be a politically motivated group that is dead set on tarnishing Gandhi's image now that he is long dead. I hasten to add that I'm not saying that Gandhi, while his stay in Africa, did not have any misguided notions about Africans, but that was part of his learning process, and it was only after his return to India, after his African Experiences, that he came to be what he is well known for.He definitely did not advocate violence

[Odin2005]

54. Interesting bit on Sri Lank, thanks!

[Vehl]

56. You are welcome :) nt

[mbperrin]

49. A group. Interesting. They have no known spokesperson, no membership

numbers, no site on the web.

But they're worthy of being in the news.

Okay.

[Le Taz Hot]

53. None of which

has anything to do with the great humanitarian benefit of Civil Disobedience. Why oh why do we expect our leaders to be perfect?

- Martin Luther, who opened the Catholic Church wide open, was an avowed anti-semite.
- Martin Luther King Jr., who was the leader and physical embodiment of the modern-day Civil Rights movement, had a mistress.
-George Washington, who, before he led us to victory against the Brits and won the Revolutionary War, was first a surveyor who helped himself to, literally, MILLIONS of acres of American land.
- Robert Kennedy, who took up the mantel of getting us out of Viet Nam in 1968, was once on Joseph McCarthy's Anti-Communism Committee.

Look, leaders past present and future are still flawed human beings just like the rest of us. It is important, of course, to include ALL facts in a scholarly investigation and documentation, good or bad, but let's not make these people deities.