Principal's bad grammar angers parents

[47of74]

Source: UPI

NEW YORK, Oct. 22 (UPI) -- The New York principal who sent teachers an ungrammatical e-mail should be dismissed, some parents say.

Andrew Buck, who has headed the Middle School of Art and Philosophy in Brooklyn since it opened in 2007, sent the e-mail last week to explain why he believes the school does not need more textbooks, the New York Daily News reported. The e-mail ended up being circulated to parents as well.

"Our principal denies us books and then he sends this nonsense," Paulette Brown, a nurse assistant and mother of an 8th grader, told the newspaper. "You can't understand what he's saying in the letter. He has to go."

In one egregious sentence, Buck confuses affect and effect and leaves out the apostrophe in students', after saying textbooks often made him feel inadequate when he was a student: "Personal experience aside, which surfaces a concern about the potential adversarial affect of textbooks to students learning, let;s return to the essential question of learning and how it is best achieved."

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2010/10/22/Principals-bad-grammar-angers-parents/UPI-76851287782392/

---

It's not too hard to see why America's educational system is in the toilet these days.

[gristy]

1. So not only does the principal not know how to spell or compose a sentance, he

apparently doesn't know that he doesn't know how to spell or compose a sentance. If he did, he would have had someone proof his email. Blissful ignorance, I guess.

Of course with the ongoing assault on education, the problem of incompetent administration and teachers will only get worse.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. It was a communication meant for staff only

I believe we can find many things more important to wring our hands over.

When this guy sends out an error riddled communication to parents, I'll join the hand wringing.

[kestrel91316]

6. I disagree. He is a professional. He needs to communicate like one

at ALL times when he is acting in his professional capacity. This wasn't some hastily scribbled hand-written note.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Emails are exactly like some hastily scribbled handwritten note

We have been directed this year to communicate with each other strictly via email. We were told not to write handwritten notes. I would imagine a similar directive went out to teachers in many other districts.

[Riftaxe]

67. Since when?

I have never worked at a position where poorly written e-mails were tolerated. I imagine not many companies tolerate unprofessional communications, although perhaps i have just been lucky enough to never worked for one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. Since the directive we were given in August

That's when.

[boppers]

112. You were directed to ignore spelling, grammar, etc?

That almost seems like a set-up to demonstrate a lack of professionalism.

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. We were directed to do all communications electronically

An email from a co-worker with incorrect spelling and grammar does not bother me as long as I get the meaning of the email.

Now if that same co-worker sent out a communication to parents that had errors then I would be concerned.

[rayofreason]

145. Boee du u hav loh standard!

In schools we are trying to get students to correct poor grammar and spelling, so to allow it among teachers and administrators in professional, work-related communication is really unacceptable!

[Occulus]

110. USPS internal emails to/from management personnel are just as bad

Appalling, really. You can almost tell who should and should not be in management just by reading their communications to each other, not for content but for composition, spelling, and grammar.

[msanthrope]

172. Since the teacher got tenure....n/t

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

179. The OP is about a principal. They aren't tenured.

Shows what you (don't) know on this topic.

As if that hasn't been obvious all along.

[msanthrope]

187. He was an art teacher, was he not? I suspect his skill slippage happened the moment tenure was

obtained.

Why are you defending a guy his teachers hate?

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2008/12/07/2008-12-07_flatbush_school_leader_gets_unions_lowes.html

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msanthrope]

193. Tenure certainly seems to protect the incompetent, doesn't it? What floors me is the knee-jerk

defense of this moran--a principal hated by his own teachers.

I'm betting he sucked as a teacher, too.

[Catshrink]

196. No it doesn't.

I don't know enough about the situation in question - I do question your continually expressed hatred of tenured, i.e. experienced, teachers and their unions.

Get this: there aren't nearly as many incompetent teachers as the RW talking points you've been gobbling up have led you to believe. There are very few of them just like there are few incompetent doctors and lawyers.

[Radical Activist]

208. Most teachers are good.

But then, even the Waiting for Superman crowd agrees. The problem for those who deny there's a problem is that everyone who has been through the public education system has memories of both good and bad teachers.

[MineralMan]

75. Only when written that way. My emails are carefully written

small essays. That's how I get my work. Each one is a sample of my work. Each one is written to accomplish a goal. Professional emails should be professional documents. Anything less is just sloppy.

[Catshrink]

177. Well aren't you special.

[JerseygirlCT]

190. +1 nt

[joeglow3]

210. I call bullshit.

EVERYTHING you use for communication in the workplace should ALWAYS be professional. This is a bullshit excuse for the completely inexcusable.

[rayofreason]

211. Good call. n/t

[RC]

9. I dis agree. Any communication he sends out should be spelled and punctuated correctly,

Exceptions can only be made only for the occasional typing error.
If he doesn't like books then how did he get his position?

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. And all stories in our media should be mistake free as well

But you know they are not.

It's a sad sign of the times.

[MineralMan]

34. Yes, they should be. That's how I was trained as a journalist.

That it is not so today doesn't mean that it should not be so.

[joeglow3]

214. So, you excuse everyone, rather than demand they improve

I just completed a Manager and Supervisor Conference. One point they hammered home was that NOTHING would change or improve without consequences. You promote what you permit. Sorry, but this is inexcusable and he should be canned.

[oberliner]

37. Disagree is one word

There should not be a space between dis and agree.

[CherokeeDem]

24. I agree with kestrel91316.

Any professional, especially one in a management position, should strive to use proper grammar. We all make mistakes. I am just as guilty as anyone. However, a principal should respect his team, and himself, enough to write properly. There are great online tools, such as WhiteSmoke, or another grammar program, that can be utilized if he is grammatically challenged, even ‘English Grammar for Dummies’, would help. I write fiction, as well as fanfiction, in my spare time, and employee manuals, etc. for work. I try to be correct, although I make mistakes. My readers deserve to have decent grammar to read; I owe them that respect.

I agree completely with the sentiment that this helps explain why our education system is inadequate.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. We're going to have to agree to disagree then.

Some of our most brilliant scientists have struggled with dysgraphia. Einstein comes to mind. Edison had severe dyscalculia. Stephen J Cannell, a TV writer who recently died, and whose work dominated prime time TV in the 70s and 80s, was functionally illiterate and had to hire a personal assistant to write for him.

http://learningdisabilityforum.com/bbs-ld/621.html

http://wn.com/Examples_of_Math_Dyscalculia

http://www3.mb.com.ph/articles/211578/understanding-dyscalculia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgraphia

[MineralMan]

35. None of those people had teaching as a primary occupation.

You are comparing two dissimilar things.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. The primary task of a writer is to write

Yet Stephen J Cannell, who could not write due to severe learning disabilities, was the most prolific TV writer of his time.

Yes it is exactly the same thing.

I also think Cannell would have been an awesome teacher. I would have loved to just sit and talk to him about how he overcame his difficulties and succeeded.

[MineralMan]

43. I repeat: None of those people were educators.

Find an educator as an example if you want to make a comparison.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Um no.

Einstein was a professor at several universities in both Europe and the US.

[MineralMan]

55. Teaching was not Einstein's principal occupation.

At that level, professors are hired for different reasons than a high school teacher. I'm sure you knew that. Einstein was a theoretical physicist. Next comment?

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. Professors are not educators?

Also, the OP is not about a high school teacher, it's about a principal. Surely you understand the difference?

Then again, maybe not.

[MineralMan]

72. Certainly some of my professors were clearly not educators.

They were researchers, for the most part. They gave lectures about their research, past and present. Graduate students who served as teaching assistants did the rest. A Nobel prize gets you a prize post as a professor at a major university. Not all professors are very good educators. Most of the most brilliant researchers are poor educators, but the quality of their ideas makes up for that. We are not talking about university professors here. Not in any way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. So you are claiming that professors are not educators

Interesting since many are represented by TEACHERS' unions.

I would also suspect a majority of their students would refer to them as teachers, not researchers. I think of them as both.

[MineralMan]

77. It depends on the discipline and the reason the professor was hired.

Einstein was not hired for his skill as an educator. He was hired for his brilliance as a theoretician.

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. Oh come on. You don't know that.

He had a long career as a professor when he emigrated here and was hired by Princeton. You have no idea what role his experience played in the decision to hire him. Besides, that still doesn't prove what you are claiming - that professors are not educators.

You're done here.

[MineralMan]

97. I'm never done here.

I do know why he was hired. I've read almost everything Einstein wrote, and most of what has been written about him. I do know. I did not say that professors in general are not educators. High-profile research scientists are not hired by universities for their educational skills. They are hired for the prestige and valuable contracts they generate for the university. Einstein was not a great teacher. He was a great theorist. When he taught at all, it was to small groups in a seminar setting. Einstein did not teach Freshman Physics. It's a different world for the Nobel Prize laureates in academia.

I'm at a loss to understand why you're supporting this principal. He doesn't even understand the value of textbooks. For goodness' sake...quit while you're only behind.

[proud2BlibKansan]

135. I am speaking out against petty criticism. That is a lot different from support.

I am assuming that you understand the difference, since you claim to be such a master of the written language.

[Confusious]

143. Petty critism is an educator who doesn't see the need for books

You're a piece of work.

[proud2BlibKansan]

144. Show me where I said that

I'll wait.

[Confusious]

147. You didn't, he did

but you did call that "petty criticism"

I think most people here are aghast at the thought of someone who is suppose to be an educator not seeing the need for books. And that is one of the main points of criticism. Which you see as "petty"

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. No. I have never commented on what he said about textbooks.

Go back and read my posts again.

[Confusious]

151. But you're defending him, and having people who are

functionally illiterate teach.

You said it was all "petty criticism" Do you want to take that back? you never specified what part of the criticism was petty, so I took it to mean, as most people would, all of it was petty, even about the textbooks.

Would you like to make yourself more clear?

[proud2BlibKansan]

155. I think criticizing miistakes in an internal email is petty

As I've said a gazillion times, if this had been from a communication sent to parents, I would join the hand wringing. But it's not.

I have 10 minutes every morning before students walk in my room to read and respond to emails. Some days just a few and other days there are a dozen or more. And while I believe my written language skills are good, when I'm in a hurry I may make mistakes. That doesn't mean I'm an incompetent teacher. As I have also pointed out, poor written language skills don't equal incompetent teaching.

(As a side note, the absolute worst teacher I ever worked with had great writing skills and nearly perfect penmanship. I'm sure her emails are perfect. But she was a horrible teacher who shouldn't have ever been allowed in a classroom.)

I also seem to be the only one in this thread who has a problem with a teacher sharing this internal email with the media.

As for the textbooks issue, I haven't commented because I don't think there is enough information in the OP for me to form an opinion. Textbooks aren't curriculum; they are merely one of many resources employed by good teachers in successful schools.

[Confusious]

163. Now it's not about him having a disablity, it's about time

I'm sorry, that guy had too many errors and it was also referred to as "rambling." I expect a bit more from teachers. I expect a bit more from myself, correct spelling and punctuation with a minimum of mistakes.

"I also seem to be the only one in this thread who has a problem with a teacher sharing this internal email with the media."

Whistleblower? No, you're the only one. I would tell also if I thought the guy was this bad.

"As for the textbooks issue, I haven't commented because I don't think there is enough information in the OP for me to form an opinion"

Of course you won't, because if you did, you'd have to admit he was wrong.

[proud2BlibKansan]

183. Once again. For the slow learners.

I do not judge anyone by their written communications. Because I teach special ed and know for a fact that mastery (or not) of our language in its written form is not a sign of intelligence, (as evidenced in the examples I provided) I find a determination that this principal should be fired - based merely on the content of this email - to be ignorant, and as I have said repeatedly, petty. And the reason he is being lambasted here is because we are having a war on educators on this discussion board.

In order to wage this battle, in this thread we have "gleaned" the following:

1. Einstein was not a teacher

2. Textbooks are the sole means of learning

3. Anyone who can't write is incompetent

4. Higher ed employees (professors, for example) do not belong to unions

All of the above statements are FALSE.

Now excuse me, as I am off to perfect my own mastery of the English language by tackling the Sunday crossword puzzle. Have a perfectly glorious Sunday. :hi:

[msanthrope]

197. You teach special ed and yet you throw around the term "slow learners?"

Of course you do.

[Catshrink]

199. Says the "expert"

:rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

205. Are you accusing me of being dishonest?

Is that now part of your agenda?

Hate public schools - check

Misunderstand tenure - check

Blame teachers - check

Hey! I just made a rubric!

[rayofreason]

207. You were dishonest...

...when you wrote "You are going to have to show me where I said anything about anyone being fired."

You referred to the leaker being fired several times. Do you deny that?


Hate public schools - check

Wrong. Never sent any of mine to private schools and have worked with schools for decades. Enough to see the problems as well as to work alongside the really good teachers.

Misunderstand tenure - check

Understand it quite well, being tenured.

Blame teachers - check

Blame incompetence. If an educator is incompetent, remove that person. You spent the entire thread defending incompetence, trying to deflect it by calling criticism "petty." Give me a break. This is why education is in trouble.

[hack89]

171. The top ones are not hired for their teaching abilities

they are hired to add prestige to the school and to bring in research money.

[rayofreason]

153. And Einstein...

...was a great writer, mathematician, and physicist.

I don't expect every science teacher to be Einstein, but I strongly object to science teachers being innumerate, irrational thinkers, or terrible writers.

[oberliner]

52. This person is not an educator either

He is an administrator.

[MineralMan]

56. Ah. I see. So school administrators are not educators. Is that

what you're trying to tell me? Really? Imagine my surprise.

[oberliner]

62. You make a good point

Principals can be considered educators as well.

However, I believe this is an overreaction to a few typos.

[Bluenorthwest]

59. Not correct. Cannell was dyslexic, and he did much of his own

typing, as well as all of his own writing. He earned a degree in journalism from the University of Oregon, and made his career from scratch, selling scripts he wrote to TV. Functionally illiterate? He wrote hundreds of screenplays and a few best selling novels. The man ran a large company. He was not illiterate.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Cannell frequently had to dictate ideas or even complete scripts to a personal secretary

I am a member of several national LD associations. Cannell was a frequent keynote speaker at national conferences. He often spoke about his 'functional illiteracy' (his words, not mine).

His story is a wonderful testament to overcoming disabilities. But overcoming them doesn't mean they are gone.

[Bluenorthwest]

79. But he could and did both read and write

I personally saw him physically write, and then read it back. So perhaps he meant he had been considered functionally illiterate? Or maybe I am not aware of a definition of illiterate that includes the ability to read, write, and compose complex texts.

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. Do you understand what functionally illiterate means?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy

It doesn't mean he can't read and write.

My entire point is that if a very successful TV writer struggled to write with fluency and still was admired and respected in his field, then why can we not also look past the poor writing of a principal in an internal email meant only for staff? This is just more silly hoopla meant to enrage the education bashers here.

[Confusious]

107. So you want the functionally illiterate teaching kids?

I can't believe you're defending this guy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. I don't think they should be English teachers

But that doesn't mean they may not be great Math teachers. So no, I see no reason to outright ban anyone with learning differences from teaching. And I believe ADA would back me on that.

[Confusious]

142. Someone who is functionally illiterate probably couldn't get through math

They shouldn't be teaching anyone. Like the guy in OP. There are people who are literate who can't do it. Seriously, how do you write a mathematical proof without words?

especially someone who says "books talk down to me", "we don't need books"

I never said anything about learning disabilities. straw man.

I think I see the reason this country is going down the tubes as far as education is concerned.

[proud2BlibKansan]

148. And I never said anything about textbooks

I was the one who brought up learning disabilities as people with dysgraphia have great difficulty composing written language. That doesn't mean they aren't intelligent and it certainly doesn't mean they can't teach. I also believe ADA would allow them to become teachers.

And last time I checked, Math teachers in elementary schools don't write proofs.

[Confusious]

150. Well, my math teachers corrected my homework

I did proofs in geometry. Don't you remember them?

Should we hire one teacher who can read, and another who can't?

This guy doesn't see the need for textbooks, the one you're defending. Can we get that straight?

I can understand defending someone who is disabled, but there is no evidence of that here, and this guy doesn't want textbooks because "they talk down to him." are you defending that too?

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. In elementary school?

I spent the summer writing Math curriculum for elementary school. Proofs are not taught. I believe that's a high school level skill.

I don't believe there is enough information in the OP to comment on textbooks. Lots of teaching in K-12 schools does not involve textbooks. And if I was a teacher in Texas, you can be damned sure I'd do everything I could to avoid using the textbooks they recently adopted.

But honestly, I want more information. What textbooks? What subjects? What resources are already in place at this school? We don't have any of that information, so I'm not going to criticize or approve of the principal's comments.

[rayofreason]

161. Let's see If I got this right...

From your various posts I have gleaned the following:

1. A school Principal, who is the instructional leader of a school, has no responsibility to make certain that his official communications about school policy are grammatically correct, spelled correctly, or even make sense.

Principals set the tone for a school and someone like this sets a very low bar for the school culture. Just on the basis of such a communication he should be investigated, and unless this was a one-off (maybe he had the flu when he wrote it so he was not fully engaged?), he should be fired. But I suspect that that this guy generally communicates that way. Why do I say that? Because the culture of schools is to hide the dirty laundry. I bet that this one was so over the top, after a long series of nonsense, so that someone finally said "We have got to let people know!" and released the email. After all, the article says,

In addition to bad grammar and spelling mistakes, with textbooks sometimes appearing as two words, Buck's e-mail has some murky metaphors, the newspaper said.

"Text books are the soup de jour, the sine qua non, the nut and bolts of teaching and learning in high school and college so to speak," he wrote before changing course and arguing that students can't learn to read from textbooks, while misspelling the French phrase "soup du jour."

Come on. Anyone who writes like that has no business guiding a school.

2. You are concerned about the breach committed by the person who released the email, you expect the person to be fired for that, and there is every indication that you would agree with such an outcome

Yep, that is right -shoot the messenger/whistle blower. Forget about the miserable product being produced by a significant fraction of public schools. Yes, there are very good ones - and some of the best are in Texas! But so many are just terrible and get worse even though the per capita spending goes up. So instead of getting rid of a terrible school leader, you side with him but express surprise that there is no outrage toward the person who exposed the truth!

3. On the one hand you defend an incompetent Principal whose statement on textbooks and learning seem to have more to do with his inadequacies than with real issues around learning ("Personal experience aside, which surfaces a concern about the potential adversarial affect of textbooks to students learning,..." - from the OP) , and on the other hand you write things like "Lots of teaching in K-12 schools does not involve textbooks."

While it is true that there are many high quality instruction materials that are not textbooks, effective use of such materials demands an even GREATER level of ability among teachers and strong instructional leadership from the Principal. It seems clear that this Principal cannot do this. Moreover, many teachers (especially in elementary grades) have a poor understanding of the content that they are teaching. This is certainly part of the answer to the question "what is wrong with schools?" And so your statement "I spent the summer writing Math curriculum for elementary school." raises a serious question. Why didn't your district adopt high quality, research-based instructional materials like "Investigations in Number, Data, and Space" instead of having teachers design home-grown stuff that cannot be of the same quality as materials that were developed by specialists in math education and cognitive science and which were field-tested for effectiveness and portability?

What is exposed here is the resistance of the K-12 education establishment to attempts to hold it accountable for the poor product it produces. Attempts to enforce standards and demands that teachers have strong content backgrounds are viewed as an attack. Parochial concerns like the mistaken idea that current classroom teachers know best how to design instructional materials trump scientific research into teaching and learning. Tribalism rules, outsiders are to be deflected, and even egregious conduct is to be tolerated and shielded. How long does it take to fire a bad teacher? Probably longer than it takes to fire an "informer!"

Until these cultural features are changed, much of public education will continue on the downward spiral it has been on for the past 30 years.

Two final things - stop saying stupid stuff about Einstein (like "Maybe he was hired at Princeton to teach classes"). It really is embarrassing. And university faculty are not unionized. I really have no idea where you got that one from.

[proud2BlibKansan]

178. You fail at gleaning

1. A school Principal, who is the instructional leader of a school, has no responsibility to make certain that his official communications about school policy are grammatically correct, spelled correctly, or even make sense.

Once again. It was an internal email, meant for staff only. I find it petty to criticize it. Period.

2. You are concerned about the breach committed by the person who released the email, you expect the person to be fired for that, and there is every indication that you would agree with such an outcome

You are going to have to show me where I said anything about anyone being fired. That's a stretch.

3. On the one hand you defend an incompetent Principal whose statement on textbooks and learning seem to have more to do with his inadequacies than with real issues around learning ("Personal experience aside, which surfaces a concern about the potential adversarial affect of textbooks to students learning,..." - from the OP) , and on the other hand you write things like "Lots of teaching in K-12 schools does not involve textbooks."

How much teaching experience do YOU have? You don't seem to understand the difference between curriculum and textbooks. Investigations in Number, Data, and Space" is the name of a TEXTBOOK published by Pearson and is the adopted series used by my school district. I am very familiar with Investigations and have worked as a trainer for Scott Foresman, now merged with Pearson. But as I tried to explain, curriculum is more than just a textbook. A large component of the Investigations training is helping teachers use Investigations as a RESOURCE and NOT as their sole Math program. The end result of a diverse curriculum is mastery of learning targets supported by VARIOUS resources, including, but never limited to, textbooks. Most of the learning targets in our curriculum have a half dozen or more resources. For example, a teacher introducing a math skill in elementary school is given a list of Investigations lessons as well as web resources, read aloud picture books and games that are to be used collectively over a series of days and lessons until the students master the learning target. Investigations is very limited and only covers about 50% of the learning targets in our curriculum. In some districts where I trained teachers, Investigations was only covering a third of learning targets. In fact, Investigations does not teach memorization of Math facts. Hence, the problem in relying on textbooks. (And I suspect, the point of the poorly written email in the OP.)

School districts do involve teachers in writing curriculum. It's a common practice. It is not "home grown stuff" in the least. Teachers don't invent curriculum or grow it in their back yards. What a woefully ignorant statement. We have so far spent 6 months writing our curriculum and will likely be working on it for another 6 months to a year. It is obviously a far more complicated process than you realize, and is not just thrown together by teachers or textbook publishers.

Yes, Einstein was indeed a teacher. Probably the greatest, along with Maria Montessori (but since she was also a doctor, I can see a petty critic arguing that point as well). I have had a picture of Einstein on the wall in my classroom for 30 years. He is an inspirational role model for students who struggle to fit into a traditional learning environment. The smartest man of the 20th century was a failure in elementary school but went on to change the world and yes, to teach. I read this book to my kids every year and they love it. I'm thinking you would learn a great deal from it as well.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BmsFZrXIL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Your last statement is comical. And it proves you are merely a blowhard who is grossly uninformed. (As if that is not evident long before your last sentence.) Yes, university faculty are unionized. Many are in MY union.

The AFT represents 1.5 million pre-K through 12th-grade teachers; paraprofessionals and other school-related personnel; higher education faculty and professional staff; federal, state and local government employees; nurses and healthcare workers; and early childhood educators.
http://www.aft.org/yourwork/highered/

[rayofreason]

194. Thanks for the reply...

...and here is mine. Point be point since there is so much.

1. A school Principal, who is the instructional leader of a school, has no responsibility to make certain that his official communications about school policy are grammatically correct, spelled correctly, or even make sense.

Once again. It was an internal email, meant for staff only. I find it petty to criticize it. Period.

So internal emails should not be criticized because to do so is "petty." That means the internal email can be as badly written, as nonsensical as possible, but cannot be criticized. So you provide evidence that what I wrote in 1. is a fair description of your position.


2. You are concerned about the breach committed by the person who released the email, you expect the person to be fired for that, and there is every indication that you would agree with such an outcome

You are going to have to show me where I said anything about anyone being fired. That's a stretch.

Amazing! You really don't remember your posts 10, 19, 120, 127, 155? Well here they are (not all in the entirety, but with the key points included):

10. Once again, the key here is this was an INTERNAL email to teachers. As I said, if it had been to parents, I'd join the outraged. The likely outcome is someone on that staff is in trouble for sharing an internal email with the media. The district will probably figure out who forwarded it and penalize that teacher. If he/she was so outraged, a private conversation with the principal would have been the professional way to handle this.

19. A teacher I know was disciplined for forwarding an email outside of our employee group
That was this teacher's first mistake. The district probably knows by now who forwarded the email to the media.

Here MineralMan responded

27. That would be a risk I'd be willing to take.

To which you responded

120. You'd be willing to risk losing your means of supporting your family

Plus their health insurance.

Sure.

You also wrote

155. I also seem to be the only one in this thread who has a problem with a teacher sharing this internal email with the media.

Worse yet, you wrote

127. I have a feeling the teacher who leaked this email to the media is in a world of shit

LOL

Here you are, hoist by your own petard. I HAVE shown where you where you talk about the leaker being fired, and you are even "LOL" at the thought that it will happen! So are you willing to concede that your statement

You are going to have to show me where I said anything about anyone being fired. That's a stretch.

was totally wrong?

You are the kind of person who is a part of the problem with education. Defending the worst of the profession, supporting the thugs who are out to get the whistle blowers, and then denying that you hold such opinions!


On the other hand, I am glad to hear that your district uses Investigations, since what districts should do is adopt high quality materials then fill in the gaps between the materials and locals learning goals. From what you wrote, your district seems to be doing that. Of course districts involve teachers in putting everything together and delivering professional development. Districts that do not begin with high quality materials such as Investigations (or, for example, FOSS or STC for science) end up with an inferior product. I have seen some really horrible things in purely homegrown stuff, like claims that ancient Africans invented airplanes or that mass and weight are the same thing! So yes, there are plenty of places where teachers "...grow it in their back yards (sic)." Poor materials, poorly trained teachers - these are some of the problems with K-12 education. Other problems are the ones that you exemplify - the resistance to accountability and thuggish tactics toward those inside the system who do not toe the line (127. I have a feeling the teacher who leaked this email to the media is in a world of shit, LOL).

And regarding my experience, it includes teaching, research in multiple areas including applied cognitive science, professional development, work on standards and assessments at (multiple) state, national, and international levels, R&D of instructional materials, and consulting for publishers including Pearson. So I'll be happy to match my 30 yrs experience to yours anytime. But to a large extent, all the qualifications and background are immaterial - what matters here is the quality of argument in the posts and the impact on other people who read them. Enough people read your posts to know where you are coming from. And if they read point 2 above they will know you for what you are - a supporter of thug tactics against a person who exposed an incompetent Principal.

And regarding unions and university faculty - it is you who are grossly uninformed, as are a great many people about the realities of university life, especially at research universities (about which I know a lot). A simple google search comes up with stuff like this:

http://www.psufa.org/unite/

Notice that they are a union for "part-time faculty." In a university, if you are not on a tenure line you really don't count - even though those folks may actually teach a large fraction of classes!. You have no vote in faculty meetings and you have little if any influence. It is the tenure-track faculty who rule the roost and all others are second class, if that. Not pretty, and not something I agree with, but there it is.

University faculty are not unionized as a whole, even though there are attempts to chip away at the monolith and a (very) few places have done so - Rutgers, CUNY, and UF are notable examples. But most university faculty are not unionized, especially at the top universities. The faculty in the U Cal system are not unionized, neither are the U Texas system or U of MD. In fact, the people (scientists) I know at such places would bridle at the suggestion since they would view any external control as an infringement on their prerogatives. Even attempts to unionize grad students run into real trouble - and then such unions are only for teaching assistants. At research universities you spend 1-2 years as a TA, then move to an RA paid by a professor's grant (tuition and a stipend, plus research and travel costs). If a professor wants to stop paying of a grad student on their grant, they can do so for no cause at all. If a professor decides that the needs of the research require a reallocation of funds, and that means cutting out one of the RA positions, then the least valuable grad student will go, or if a professor just feels a student is not productive enough, that person is gone. No appeal. They will have to find another professor to affiliate with or leave school. And that is not going to change. So to the extent that unions exist among university faculty, especially at the 250 or so research universities that provide most of the graduate education in the US, the situation is far different than in K-12 where incompetent people are protected to an extent that makes ordinary people gag. That is why the OP had such a resonance.

Finally, your persistence on holding onto myths about Einstein only illustrates that you are impervious to fact. You have a cartoon view of him, like the cover of the book you included with the message. I trust the people who worked with Einstein and the wider physics community (my community) for insight into who he was and how he was as opposed to the nonsense that is often peddled about him. And to build up untruths about Einstein, and use them to defend failures in the educational system is a great insult to a great physicist.

[Catshrink]

180. You sure are basing a lot on one email

I imagine you find nothing wrong with using the results of a single test as a teacher's annual evaluation, regardless of whether that teacher has AP classes or classes with a high number of learning disabled students.

I actually feel kind of sorry for you as you must live in a state of constant disappointment.

[rayofreason]

185. One test...

...is not valid.

Multiple tests as over a few years plus student outcomes are sufficient. And schools should be evaluated as well. Ever hear of MSPAP? NAEP? These kind of measures are needed because there must be a way to evaluate and hold people accountable.

And no, I know plenty of good teachers and good schools, so there is no reason why would I "live in a state of constant disappointment."

I feel sorry for those who refuse to recognize the terrible state of education and the need to dramatically improve it. Let's start with science and math. No person who does not have a science or math degree (a real B.S. that is!) has any business teaching such subjects in middle school or beyond.

[proud2BlibKansan]

198. Yet you judge ME and my professional abilities based on replies on a message board

I call that hypocrisy. And assholey, if that's a word.

[Catshrink]

200. Armchair teachers... about as useful as armchair quarterbacks

[rayofreason]

206. You bet...

...I can judge the statements you make on a message board.

When you repeatedly defend a Principal who sent out a professional correspondence such as quoted in the OP (and once is one to many!), and you LOL about the person who released the email getting fired, that is plenty of information to render partial judgement.

I have no idea how you are as a teacher - maybe quite good. As a leader of PD for your district you could be quite good as well. And we would probably agree on a great many things,such as the need to keep "creation science" out of classrooms. But your lax attitude toward the professional standard evidenced by the Principal, and far worse, your attitude toward the leaker and the prospect of that person (or persons?) being "...in a world of shit LOL" (your own words!) are inexcusable. And then you accuse me of not correctly gleaning your position from your posts when you write "You are going to have to show me where I said anything about anyone being fired."

As I said in my other response, hoist by your own petard!

[Confusious]

162. Lots of teaching in K-12 schools does not involve textbooks.

Really. I had textbooks in every class in every subject from 3rd to 12th.

"What textbooks? What subjects? What resources are already in place at this school?"

Who cares? it doesn't matter the books. What matters is his attitude.


"so I'm not going to criticize or approve of the principal's comments."

Of course you won't, because if you did, you'd have to admit he was wrong.

[Catshrink]

201. Or maybe she doesn't want to comment without more information

BTW, how much teaching doesn't involove textbooks? How do you know this? Have you done a survey? Are you in the classroom so you can make this pronouncement? Or are you just pulling it out of your butt and calling it reliable because it's your opinion?

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. If Stephen J Cannell was still alive, I think he would make a great teacher

He could teach aspiring screen writers quite a lot about the TV business.

[mitchum]

137. Now I find that "Stephen J Cannell Production"clip at the end of his shows EVEN more...

annoying. Instead of Cannell furiously typing, we should have seen Cannell kicked back in a La-Z-Boy while dictating to some underpaid minion.

[rayofreason]

152. What nonsense! It is a myth...

...that Einstein "struggled with dysgraphia."

http://dyslexia.learninginfo.org/famous-people.htm

Einstein papers are a marvel to read - he was a superb writer. I have only read his work in translation (I don't read German), but colleagues who have read the originals say he is perhaps the finest writer they have ever read.

This kind of sloppy reasoning based on untruth - Einstein was bad at math and a poor writer, so it is OK if the teacher is too!- is part and parcel of the problem with education. Professional educators should be well educated in the areas that they teach (history of science and scientists anyone?) and should be held to the highest standards of professionalism in their official communications. And to hell with the excuses.

[proud2BlibKansan]

181. And from another source:

It is difficult to diagnose a person posthumously. Certainly, others who have explored the evidence have reached different conclusions than Thomas. Whether or not Einstein would meet a stringent definition for learning disabilities as we now define it, his own writings indicate that he experienced some academic challenges. About test taking, he wrote, “I would feel under such strain that I felt, rather than going to take a test, that instead, I was walking to the guillotine.” In addition, he related that teachers thought he asked too many questions and that he found learning difficult. Hence, amidst all of Einstein’s other great accomplishments, a piece his legacy can continue to be motivating other bright students who face learning challenges, regardless of classification.

Thomas, Marlin. (2000). Albert Einstein: An evaluation of the evidence. Journal of Learning Disabilities,33, 2, 149-157.

[oberliner]

40. You have several unnecessary commas

The one between Dummies and would help appears to be the most egregious error.

[Skittles]

165. you seriously abuse commas

just sayin'

[awoke_in_2003]

70. he is in a leadership position...

as such, he needs to be very mindful of his communications with those he is leading.

[MineralMan]

80. Exactly.

[Iowa]

84. That's just an excuse, and a very poor one...

The guy can't write. He's bordering on illiterate. Furthermore, his thinking is obviously muddled. He shouldn't be running a school.

[JerseygirlCT]

189. I disagree

The staff is meant to work for him, yes? Why would educators take seriously a person who purports to be an educator and their supervisor who can't write?

Sorry. This is a big fail any way you look at it.

[trusty elf]

12. Um, er.....

you misspelled "sentence".


Was that intentional? ;-)

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. LOL!

Exhibit A.

[Odin2005]

20. You spelled sentence wrong, you must be a bad and stupid person, then!

Because that is the attitude being given to this principle. trivial spelling errors does not make on an ignorant and stupid person.

[awoke_in_2003]

71. "trivial spelling errors does not make"

trivial spelling errors DO not make :hide:

[boppers]

116. Which principle would that be? Peter?

It can indicate a careless person who doesn't read their own work, or a person who thinks their work is above reproach.

[Odin2005]

123. I realized I made a mistake after the editing periodf had expired.

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. Your meaning was clear

Don't let the nitpickers get you down.

[boppers]

134. I saw the error, and meaning, as well as a way of extending the dialog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

...The idea being that the Principal was promoted to the greatest level of incompetence that could be tolerated.

[Odin2005]

138. don't worry, I don't! I hate nitpickers!

Though I like to nitpick myself to joke around. :-)

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. I'm reminded of a teacher I know who can't write at all.

But he's a gifted teacher and many parents request their children be placed in his class every year. His emails are sometimes full of mistakes as he uses a pointer held in his mouth to type.

This teacher is a quadraplegic. (sp?) He is paralyzed from the neck down. So no, he can't write well at all. He has an assistant who handles most of the writing needs of his job but once in awhile, she is not there or too busy with the students. So he often composes emails to co-workers with his pointer.

But instead of criticizing him for his writing mistakes, he is greatly admired by co-workers and parents because he really is a gifted teacher.

But the perfects here would probably insist he be fired for incompetence.

[Confusious]

146. Let's ask him about the need for books

and the ability to read, write and understand.

[boppers]

167. Is the Principal in question a quadriplegic?

(you missed the "i" in the middle of quadriplegic, FWIW, since you asked about the spelling)

Or is the principal just lazy/arrogant?

I once had a Boy Scout Master who lost usage of his body from the waist down at age 13.

On rougher hikes, he would ride an ATV. On easier hikes, we'd fight up hills with him in his chair.

I respect him a hell of a lot more than I would have respected a Scout Master who always rode an ATV, because, well, he was a dick who couldn't be bothered to treat others with common respect, and expected privilege because of their position.

[boppers]

133. periodf?

:evilgrin:

(f is next to d, it's a classic speed typing error)

[oberliner]

36. You spelled sentence wrong

Twice.

[awoke_in_2003]

68. 'how to spell or compose a sentance"

whilst being a spelling nazi, one should keep an eye on one's spelling :)

[Maine-ah]

99. sentence

;-)

[clixtox]

117. You're hilarious!

I love the way you spelled sentence in your header and in the body of your post! Irony abounds...

[alcibiades_mystery]

141. A "sentance"

:rofl:

[CountAllVotes]

184. the word is "sentence" ...

not sentance fyi.

[ejpoeta]

2. wow. i can understand that especially regarding email and computer

generated letters that there are errors. but it seems to highlight the NEED for the books. the only reason I can see not having textbooks, if you are going to argue for eliminating them or reducing reliance on them, would be to focus on computers and laptops. However, there is something to be said for actually having a book to hold in your hand and read. The principal's own personal feeling of inadequacy shouldn't have come from books but his inability to understand what was in them. which would be HIS issue and not the book's issue.

[oberliner]

42. Sentences are supposed to begin with a capital letter

You have several sentences in your post that begin with a lowercase letter.

[ejpoeta]

83. so what. i am not the principal of a school.

[oberliner]

85. Principals of schools should be allowed to have typos in emails to teachers

The primary error seems to be writing textbook as text book throughout the email.

I really don't see what the big deal is.

[ejpoeta]

89. i thought i had said that everyone has errors. i was addressing the issue

of getting rid of books more than a typo.

[oberliner]

91. The textbook issue is an interesting one

I do think there are some great free online resources that make textbooks look a bit creaky by comparison.

[ejpoeta]

93. i think that the positive about using the internet as opposed to textbooks

would be updates and current information. as well as less trees dying. but there is something about holding a book in your hand, feeling it's cool cover and turning it's pages.... smelling the smell of a book. I think ebooks are the way of the future, but I am torn. In the end I think maybe it makes sense to lean more towards having kids use an electronic device AND books so that they at least know HOW to use a book. IT would save money too. It would be an intriguing debate if a true one.

[oberliner]

95. Good points

I have mixed feelings about "paperless" classes. That is to say classes where there are no textbooks, and everything is turned in digitally. I understand that this is not an unusual phenomenon in college.

[Confusious]

108. There's typos, then there's the number of errors

and the mixing of metaphors, and making no sense at all.

defending text books on one hand, and then saying they're not needed on the other.

[provis99]

157. Obviously you were never much of a student, either.

on edit: edited for spelling and grammar.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. An email that went to teachers?

I could understand the outrage if this had been addressed to parents. But my principal sends, reads and responds to well over 100 emails a day. If it's an internal email meant only for staff I don't even pay attention to the correct use of conventions. I also am not nearly as careful with editing when my emails are going to co-workers only.

On the other hand, most places I have taught have a zero tolerance policy for mistakes in written communications to parents and community.

This is just silly and more fuel to the fire being built under public education.

on edit: even educators make minor errors in their writing. LOL

[MineralMan]

5. I'm afraid I have to disagree.

Emails to staff reflect the professionalism, or lack of it, of the administration. For an educator to write a sloppy, ungrammatical email like this one demonstrates a disrespect for the basic premises of the educational system. It also is a cause of disrespect for the administrator who treats the language in that sloppy way.

In my opinion, anyone who cannot express his or her ideas in decent English should not be in the field of education. If I were a teacher and got an email like that from an administrator, I'd correct and grade it, then return it to the sender.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Well good luck with that plan

I've worked with many brilliant and gifted educators who need to triple check anything they put into words on paper. Not everyone writes flawlessly.

I can't draw to save my life. I'd hate for anyone to assume I have no appreciation for art or no creative skills just because I can't draw.

If I was an administrator and an employee graded my work and returned it as you say you would do, I'd write that employee up for insubordination.

Once again, the key here is this was an INTERNAL email to teachers. As I said, if it had been to parents, I'd join the outraged. The likely outcome is someone on that staff is in trouble for sharing an internal email with the media. The district will probably figure out who forwarded it and penalize that teacher. If he/she was so outraged, a private conversation with the principal would have been the professional way to handle this.

[MineralMan]

26. As an official communication from the administrator to the teachers,

it should have been proofread. I don't care who the recipients were. For a professional educator to be unable to produce a logical, grammatical, properly spelled short memo is completely unacceptable. How did this person manage to obtain whatever advanced degree he or she attained without being able to write proper English? How did this person write examinations while in college?

Speaking and writing proper English should be a basic requirement for every educator, at whatever level. If a person cannot do that, he or she should find a different profession.

As for being written up for insubordination, I'd take that chance. I simply cannot understand how anyone who has achieved an advanced degree in the education department of a university can be incapable of writing a short memo correctly. Perhaps you can understand it. I don't know.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. I guess you would have encouraged Einstein to find a different profession

And Edison couldn't do simple math. I take it you would have told him to stop tinkering around with those wires.

[MineralMan]

33. You guess incorrectly.

Neither man was primarily a teacher. Teachers need proper basic language skills. Their job is communication. Teaching is nothing more nor less than communication of information to those who are being taught. Communication skills are fundamental to the profession.

[rayofreason]

154. Edison could do "simple math"...

...it was was the more complicated stuff that tripped him up. That is why he did not understand what Tesla was talking about and why he pursued DC power transmission for so long.

His poor math skills bit him in the ass as soon as the technology he was working on got past the simplest level.

And, again, you are all wet when it comes to Einstein. The use that canard is good evidence against your position that professional standards are not relevant.

[Nay]

102. Agreed, Mineral Man. My questions are similar to yours.

How does such a person even get through the first four years of college? Did his girlfriend write his papers? As far as advanced degrees -- I have no idea how he could have written and defended a thesis.

It does not matter to whom the memo was written. A properly educated person like a professional educator should be INCAPABLE of producing such a memo, simply because lousy English would not be his default -- proper English would be so ingrained that he doesn't make mistakes like this even when he is in his cups.

It astounds me that posters on DU think that the memo was OK because it went to staff, not parents. Huh? Frankly, it's more important that it be correct for staff than for parents! How would you feel if you were a teacher and the principal's memo was semi-literate? Wouldn't you wonder what else this guy didn't know? Wouldn't you wonder who he had to know to get that promotion? Admittedly, there are some people who are so personable and charismatic that they can lead even when they are deficient in skills that educators usually have, but that's pretty rare.

[RC]

15. Then they would find a reason not to renew your contract, that had nothing to do with that Email.

I've found school administrators to be mostly republicans and the baggage that carries.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. A teacher I know was disciplined for forwarding an email outside of our employee group

That was this teacher's first mistake. The district probably knows by now who forwarded the email to the media.

[MineralMan]

27. That would be a risk I'd be willing to take.

That probably explains why I have worked for myself for almost my entire adult life.

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. You'd be willing to risk losing your means of supporting your family

Plus their health insurance.

Sure.

[MineralMan]

186. As I said, I've been self-employed since 1974. I made that

choice for myself. I've never regretted it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

195. And you would be willing to give up your income for a principle?

You'd be willing to take a stand and speak out against something if it meant you could lose your income?

You're quick to impose your idea of doing what you consider the right thing upon others. But what about YOU? Would you or would you not risk losing your paycheck to do the tight thing?

[MineralMan]

203. Absolutely I would. And I have done exactly that.

One publication I wrote for tried to pressure me into writing a good review of a bad product, one from one of their major advertisers. I had written regularly for them before that happened, but the magazine got a new publisher. I told them to stick it where the sun didn't shine and lost the regular income from that publication. It took over a year to find a replacement publication for my work in that area.

What that got me was a reputation for unshakable ethics. And that landed me a column in an even better publication...one which never once tried to influence my work in any direction.

So, the answer to your question is yes. I would. I did. I would do it again for the same reasons. That's why I'm my own boss. I don't have to compromise. I may eat crappier food for a while, but there it is.

Now, you give me an example from your life, please, as long as we're talking about applied ethics and you've insisted that I give you an example.

[rayofreason]

212. Thanks for your words of reason...

...throughout this thread in a dispute with someone who exemplifies why education is in trouble.

[MineralMan]

213. Thanks so much for reading my posts.

[oberliner]

46. Have you read the email?

What did you find to be unclear?

[gristy]

61. I agree with you, MineralMan

The lack of effort that went into that email was disrespectful and reflects poorly on the principal. If he can't be burdened to write a clear and error-free memo to his staff, why should his staff care to be burdened to follow his direction? The folks in this thread who think otherwise are not unlike to the folks at work with whom I wage similar battles. They send out emails (or reports or specifications) that are full of errors. I will spend a day correcting a 30-page report, making hundreds of suggestions, and they are largely ignored.

[MineralMan]

66. Thanks. Standards have deteriorated, it seems.

More's the pity.

[petronius]

81. I agree as well. Even in quick messages to colleagues, I think attention to

form shows respect for the recipient as well as regard for the subject matter.

On emials too my studants off course, I;m vary through about it's grammer and stuff...

[MineralMan]

82. L0L!!11!!

Its expecially importent when you're student's are off coarse! Grammer is Fundimental, after awl.

[petronius]

90. I've had students tell me that my emails and announcements are noticeably more

correct and formal than what they are used to receiving from other professors. That's a bit disappointing, but at least they're noticing - and perhaps some of them are seeing why it matters...

[MineralMan]

96. That's very good. While I was a graduate student, I

taught Freshman English for non English majors. In the first class, I gave a very good lecture about why learning to write well was crucial to their careers. I explained to the students, most of whom were engineering majors, that the person who could write reports successfully would end up as a project engineer or in engineering management. The rest would not. It's all a matter of communication. If you can communicate your ideas in a way that is easily understood, you will achieve more success through your career than those who can't. That's pretty much true in every discipline. There are few places where poor communication skills are highly valued.

It worked, and I helped a bunch of budding engineers learn to write well enough to communicate their ideas in a way that would help them advance. It's all part of understanding what sets you apart from the competition.

These days, I'm writing the content for small to medium-sized business web sites. I explain my philosophy to each new potential client. One, a swimming pool builder went from being the third busiest in the region to the first in a single year, outpacing his competition dramatically. Why? Because the web content I wrote for him got him new leads and customers. I'm doing another site for him, now. At our planning meeting, he said that many of the new customers in that first year commented that it was the educational content on his web site that brought them to him. I communicated the benefits of having a swimming pool built by his company to his customers, and educated them about swimming pools. It worked. It always works. When they contacted the builder, more than half the job of selling a pool was done.

Now, the web designer I work with is busy as can be, and I'm getting all the writing work I can handle. I redid his web site, too. It's working.

[JerseygirlCT]

191. Great idea! nt

[Odin2005]

21. And this is being spun as "bad grammar" when it is a trivial spelling mistake.

This whole thing is idiotic.

[trusty elf]

57. I have to disagree with you.

In addition to the poor grammar, the style is lousy as well.

Who says "surfaces a concern"? I find that awkward. Also, wouldn't one have to say, "the effect that something has "on" learning", rather than "to" learning"?

One other thing, and I don't believe I'm nitpicking here-though it is a question of style perhaps; is saying "how (learning)...is best "achieved" really the correct way to express the idea? To "achieve learning"? Really? Wouldn't "promote", "stimulate", "encourage" or "foster" have been better?

I'm certainly not on the grammar police force, and I make mistakes too-especially with punctuation, but I wouldn't be terribly proud of having written that email.

[gristy]

86. "I also am not nearly as careful with editing when my emails are going to co-workers only."

Are you trying to convey complex information in your emails to co-workers? Do you get emails back from people asking for clarification? Do you find that sometimes what you meant is not what was understood, and you have to work to correct the direction of the thread or of an activity that was spawned by your email? When any of these happen, do you blame the recipients of your email or do you blame your carelessness in composing it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. No that has never happened

I am a pretty good writer and a nearly mistake free speller. So the scenario you describe has never happened to me.

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. Sounds like a bird-brain but someone should tell UPI...

>>>>Alan Ettman, a veteran English teacher at Hewitt Clinton High School in The Bronx, called the letter a "confusing mess" and told the News he would give it an F.>>>>

... that there is no ""Hewitt Clinton" High School in the Bronx. At least not that I ever heard of.

I think they mean Dewitt Clinton H.S. ..... named after 4-term NYS governor and 1812 presidential candidate.

Famous school named after famous man.


Journalism today..... I'm tellin' ya.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. Journalists are allowed to make mistakes

Educators are not.

[MineralMan]

38. They weren't when I was working as a journalist. Mistakes in

logic, grammar, spelling, and punctuation were not acceptable. Mistakes in facts were cause for discharge. Reputable publications employ editors, fact-checkers, and copy editors to ensure correctness. It is a poor publication that does not. There are many poor publications these days.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. That was then. This is now.

[MineralMan]

65. My standards have not changed. I'm still writing.

That standards are no longer maintained is not a positive thing. Here's the process an article went through at one major magazine for which I wrote:

1. I receive an assignment for an article.
2. I research and write the article, then deliver it to my editor, on time, at length, and in the style of the publication.
3. The editor reviews the article, makes whatever changes he/she deems necessary, or asks me to make changes.
4. The edited article is returned to me for review. Changes are discussed and further revisions are made.
5. The edited and revised article goes to the fact-checker. Every statement is reviewed for accuracy.
6. The fact-checked article is sent to the copy editor, who proofreads it for spelling, grammar, punctuation, style, and makes any needed corrections.
8. The completed article goes to production, where it is turned into the format in which it will appear.
9. The galleys are reviewed by me, my editor, and the senior editor of the department.
10. The article appears in the magazine.

That was a typical process at all the publications for which I wrote. By the time the article appeared, it had been checked, reviewed, and corrected by multiple people. In reality, very few changes were usually made from my original manuscript, which is why I made a very nice living writing for magazines. I made the job easy for everyone, but the process was always followed.


That process is no longer followed by many publications, which explains the poor quality of those publications today. Some, however, retain the process, and those are easily recognized for their quality.

[oberliner]

47. Good catch

I am seeing more and more errors like that since news has moved primarily online.

[No Elephants]

8. Hey, if Bush could be POTUS with bad grammar, why go up in arms over principal of one measly school?

[Odin2005]

16. That's not bad grammar, that's a fucking trivial TYPO, one I do a lot.

Parents are getting worked up over a fucking TYPO? :crazy:

Typos are trivial SPELLING errors, they have nothing to do with grammar (Morphology and Syntax) or the how well educated the person is.

[oberliner]

48. Well said

This is ridiculous.

[Egnever]

160. not ridiculous at all

The headline is ridiculous as usual...

However this email is only the begining of what is making these parents angry.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/10/23/2010-10-23_a_matter_of_principal_school_chief_andrew_buck_who_could_hardly_write_a_letter_m.html

Stunningly, the Education Department has been unable to say where Buck attained his undergraduate or graduate degrees. Such information should, of course, be at Klein's fingertips. As a matter of fact, parents should be able to find it with the click of a mouse.

snip

Similarly, the department has not been able to explain how Buck, who started his career in New York's schools as a fine arts teacher in Queens, came in 2007 to be the principal of a middle school in East Flatbush.

In 2008, Buck was branded Brooklyn's least trustworthy principal, according to a department survey in which 100% of responding teachers said they distrusted him, 80% of them strongly.
Based on all of the above, there's little surprise his school fares poorly on math and English tests when compared to both surrounding middle schools and those citywide. More than 80% of its students scored below standards in English, and 77% in math, according to the latest results.

[MilesColtrane]

18. The Palinization of America continues unabated.

[Odin2005]

22. A TRIVIAL TYPO is "Palinization"?

:eyes:

[MilesColtrane]

31. There's a bit more there than a couple of typos.

His attention to detail in his written communication doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxueWRuZG9jc3xneDoyMTdjY2M3ZWQzOWJlNDA0&pli=1

[MineralMan]

39. Indeed.

The sentence used as an example is incoherent, uses an incorrect word, and is completely ineffective in communicating whatever concept the writer intended.

[oberliner]

49. Seems to be not much more than numerous instances of textbook being written as text book

Not really any actual errors beyond that and a few other typos.

[Nay]

104. Are you joking? His writing is riddled with all sorts of fairly gross

errors of nearly every type.

[oberliner]

105. Can you provide an example of an error that is not a typo?

Examples at the link include errors such as writing textbook as "text book" and writing "she or she" instead of "he or she" (also "nut and bolts" instead of "nuts and bolts") - these would appear to be simple typos.

Where is there an example of a gross error of another type?

[Nay]

109. I wasn't referring to the link--I was referring to the few lines reproduced

in the newspaper article. Please take a look at my dissection of those sentences toward the bottom of the responses. My response is titled: "Okay. Mr. Buck is a shining example of..."

I think you'll see what I mean.

[oberliner]

111. How did he spell soup du jour wrong?

Looks correct to me. What is the error there?

As to the rest of your analysis, points taken!

Edit to add: Sorry - I see he wrote "de" instead of "du" - I'd be generous and call that a typo.

[Hosnon]

60. I think there is definitely a difference between "should" and "ought".

"Ought" is more synonymous with "must". "Should" implies some level of discretion conferred, but it does convey the speaker's opinion regarding the appropriate course of action.

[Sal Minella]

45. Clear and correct writing should be the goal.

From sloppy typos, which make reading more difficult and misunderstanding more likely, it's a short jump to the gobbledygook emitted by the wingnuts.

[oberliner]

51. What is unclear in the email?

What I have read of it has not been at all difficult to understand.

[asjr]

23. If someone had to proof my emails it would

instantly be Off with her head!

[PfcHammer]

25. Sounds like Oswald Bates from Booked on Phonics

The ambiguity that I feel never justifies itself, there's always that pungent odor of life's constipation that surreptitiously conflicts with the detrimental instability. Here the 2, 4, 6, 8, who do we appreciate, the unification of congress -- excuse me, condoms -- demystifies the squalor of profanity regurgitating over and over again. Here let me digress my bowels for a minute and wipe to the front of the non-descript hernia, rectifies the miscommunication of FE-cal or fe-CAL, depending on where your head is at. Do not be persecuted by the pompous fedora balanced by the equilibrium fortified by the government's inability to eradicate or foreshadow, taken from the Hebrew word "foreskin".

[kurtzapril4]

30. You're killing me....

I love Oswald!!!

[Mr Generic Other]

28. this is one of the problems associated with charter schools.

andrew buck knows that if the school purchases textbooks for the students his salary will have to be reduced.
and that is just not acceptable.

[msanthrope]

173. It's not a charter. n/t

[zogofzorkon]

44. This an administrator not an educator.

[boppers]

121. Missing a word, are we?

This not a sentence.

[teewrex]

54. Reminds me of the time my kid brought home his list of spelling

words to learn and two of them were misspelled. When I pointed it out to the teacher her only excuse was that they forgot to use spell check before sending it out. Duh!

[Angry Dragon]

64. HELLO!! ................... HELLO!!

Am I missing something here??

It seems that there are some here debating whether this
man can think clearly in writing something vs the true intent of the OP.

He wants to deny the purchase of more textbooks because he has a fear of them.
He feels they make students feel inadequate. I always thought textbooks
brought information and an expansion of the mind.

For that reason he does not deserve to head a school.

[MineralMan]

69. An excellent point, indeed!

[donco6]

114. That's actually a much higher level discussion.

Why the silly focus on his grammar when this is the real issue. Sheesh.

[awoke_in_2003]

74. "textbooks often made him feel inadequate"...

maybe you shouldn't be in the field of education, ya jackwagon.

[TheDebbieDee]

115. Lol !

Now, throw a book at him!

[awoke_in_2003]

118. ...

Jackwagon is my new favorite term. And don't get me started on the Mayhem commercials (shaky. shaky shaky shaaaky) :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kv08xAC35Q&feature=related

[ZombieHorde]

78. Principals should always write in 1337. nt

[Nay]

87. Okay. Mr. Buck is a shining example of a person who not only

dislikes textbooks (and probably books of any kind), but also does not know what he does not know. I have copied his email here for parsing:

"Personal experience aside, which surfaces a concern
(this is a nonsensical phrase -- how do you 'surface a concern'? -- he probably means 'bring up a concern,' but thinks that 'surface' sounds more learned somehow)
about the potential adversarial
(here, he obviously is groping for the word 'adverse' and didn't quite get there, another hallmark of the nonreader who is trying to appear more learned than he is.)
affect
(should be 'effect,' as has been pointed out -- by the time you are a principal of a school, the difference between 'affect' and 'effect' should have been thoroughly ironed out in the mind)
of textbooks to
should be 'on' instead of 'to'
students
(leaving out necessary punctuation (students') is yet another mark of a person who simply squeezes his eyes shut and kicks the ball, hoping that if he leaves punctuation out altogether no one will notice)
learning, let's return to the essential question of learning and how it is best achieved."
You can achieve mastery, but I've never heard of achieving learning. All this awkward phrasing is, again, the mark of a person who does not like to read or write and has never done much of either.)

In addition to bad grammar and spelling mistakes, with textbooks sometimes appearing as two words, Buck's e-mail has some murky metaphors, the newspaper said.

"Text books are the soup de jour, the sine qua non, the nut and bolts of teaching and learning in high school and college so to speak," he wrote before changing course and arguing that students can't learn to read from textbooks, while misspelling the French phrase "soup du jour."

As for this last sentence, there's the misspelling of 'soup du jour,' the 'nut' instead of 'nuts' in 'nuts and bolts,' and the fact that he is arguing here that textbooks are indispensable in HS and college when he inexplicably goes on to argue against their use.



The newspaper article says that Mr. Buck argued that students can't learn to read from textbooks, and for one specific person (Mr. Buck himself) this appears to be the case. Why he ever became an educator is a mystery to me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. The newspaper didn't even get the name of the school right

How can we even trust the accuracy of the story?

[Nay]

101. We probably can't, but since the story is based on how incensed a

bunch of parents are over a semi-literate email, it probably isn't totally made up. Parents have brought this to the attention of someone, and the story is based on their anger and shock that an educator would write in such an uneducated manner. If it's completely untrue, then surely Mr. Buck will come forward to clear his name.

[bhikkhu]

100. Well put...more the disorganized ramble of a druggie

than the guidance of a principal in charge of a teaching staff and children's education.

[Fumesucker]

128. I disagree..

I wouldn't have written as badly as that email even if I was stoned out of my gourd.

Not all druggies are morans. :)

[eilen]

106. The fact is

that if a person is a prolific reader they would know immediately that something is wrong when proofreading their letter prior to sending it. I find the most mistakes I make happen when I am writing and am interrupted and then start rewriting again. If I click "send" without rereading it (usually it is best to do this out loud), I almost always find that something is screwed up, whether it be a misspelled word or a mangled preposition.

This school administrator is neither a reader nor writer. He does not proofread his communications. He likely has little effectiveness as an administrator as he does not communicate effectively. Unfortunately, I am not surprised. I like to add an addendum on the "Those that cannot do, teach"-- "Those that cannot teach, administer."

The newspaper publisher I find the most errors in is Gannett. They can almost be guaranteed to have at least two on the front page which is scandalous. I used to have a little personal challenge when I lived in the Hudson Valley on finding the front page typographical errors in the Poughkeepsie Journal.

[DesertFlower]

98. i hate what has happened to the english language.

when did "work" become a noun and not a verb, e.g., it's near my work. when did alls instead of all become a word?

[Odin2005]

124. It is a perfectly acceptable form of derivation in English.

:eyes:

[boppers]

131. Endeed!

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
(That slepen al the nyght with open eye)
So priketh hem Nature in hir corages
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages

And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke.


Bifil that in that seson, on a day,
In Southwerk at the Tabard as I lay
Redy to wenden on my pilgrymage
To Caunterbury with ful devout corage,
At nyght was come into that hostelrye
Wel nyne and twenty in a compaignye
Of sondry folk, by aventure yfalle
In felaweshipe, and pilgrimes were they alle,
That toward Caunterbury wolden ryde.

The chambres and the stables weren wyde,
And wel we weren esed atte beste.
And shortly, whan the sonne was to reste,
So hadde I spoken with hem everichon,
That I was of hir felaweshipe anon,
And made forward erly for to ryse
To take our wey, ther as I yow devyse.

But nathelees, whil I have tyme and space,
Er that I ferther in this tale pace,
Me thynketh it acordaunt to resoun
To telle yow al the condicioun
Of ech of hem, so as it semed me -
And whiche they weren and of what degree,
And eek in what array that they were inne;
And at a knyght than wol I first bigynne.
---
This "modern" stuff is so hard to read, we should switch back to Classic English!

[marasinghe]

164. :) k&r just for the Chaucer ref.. my Dad quoted that 1st line ad nauseam (n/t)

[boppers]

166. I loves me some Chaucer.

He's what got me into Shakespeare, the classics, Carroll, and (ultimately) software development (where many languages change *every few years* or so, and simple meanings hide behind, and expose, many shadows).

John Donne's another brilliant one, his work is what really taught me about experimental abstraction... which made my math classes stupid-easy for *years*.

[marasinghe]

168. nice story. many don't get the subtle links between the literary & the scientific.

:hi:
off topic & a wave-out to you, boppers.

Donne turned me off with the religious overtones; but - thanks to your tale - shall visit him again.

my holy trinities are: Keats, Blake & Carroll; Shakespeare, Shaw & Wilde; & de Maupassant, Tolstoy & Wodehouse - as the three faces of the god of language - with many others playing the roles of the major & minor prophets.

to quote someone or the other - whose name escapes me for the moment: ".... there's still something to be said for an education in the classics .....". at the very least, it might have given dubya a lesson in Mesopotamian history.


The Gates of Damascus by James Elroy Flecker

Four great gates has the city of Damascus
And four Great Wardens, on their spears reclining,
All day long stand like tall stone men
And sleep on the towers when the moon is shining.

This is the song of the East Gate Warden
When he locks the great gate and smokes in his garden.
Postern of Fate, the Desert Gate, Disaster's Cavern, Fort of Fear,
The Portal of Baghdad am I, and Doorway of Diarbekir.

The Persian Dawn with new desires may net the flushing mountain spires:
But my gaunt buttress still rejects the suppliance of those mellow fires.
Pass not beneath, O Caravan, or pass not singing. Have you heard
That silence where the birds are dead yet something pipeth like a bird?

Pass not beneath! Men say there blows in stony deserts still a rose
But with no scarlet to her leaf -- and from whose heart no perfume flows.
Wilt thou bloom red where she buds pale, thy sister rose? Wilt thou not fail
When noonday flashes like a flail? Leave nightingale the caravan!

Pass then, pass all! 'Baghdad!' ye cry, and down the billows of blue sky
Ye beat the bell that beats to hell, and who shall thrust you back? Not I.
The Sun who flashes through the head and paints the shadows green and red,
The Sun shall eat thy fleshless dead, O Caravan, O Caravan!

And one who licks his lips for thirst with fevered eyes shall face in fear
The palms that wave, the streams that burst, his last mirage, O Caravan!
And one -- the bird-voiced Singing-man -- shall fall behind thee, Caravan!
And God shall meet him in the night, and he shall sing as best he can.

And one the Bedouin shall slay, and one, sand-stricken on the way
Go dark and blind; and one shall say -- 'How lonely is the Caravan!'
Pass out beneath, O Caravan, Doom's Caravan, Death's Caravan!
I had not told ye, fools, so much, save that I heard your Singing-man.

.... etc.

:toast:

[boppers]

169. Three trinities.... I assume this has not escaped you.

Appreciation bump.

Have you read any Rumi? If you don't read Farsi, Coleman Barks does a really nice job.

[crim son]

103. Shhhhhhhhhhh!

You can't blame the educators! It's the government's fault!

[donco6]

113. So one letter from one principal in one school, and -

OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM IS IN THE TOILET!!! OHNOES11!!!!

[Odin2005]

125. The Grammar and Spelling nazis are getting the vapors.

I'm far more concerned with the anti-textbook content.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. I have a feeling the teacher who leaked this email to the media is in a world of shit

LOL

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boppers]

132. "Writing-challenged principal Andrew Buck stands behind his idiotic letter "

"A grammar-challenged Brooklyn principal didn't back down Friday from a dimwitted memo about his school's lack of textbooks.

Principal Andrew Buck was remorseless when he told an eighth-grade English class at the Middle School for Art and Philosophy that getting an education was up to them.

"It's your teacher's responsibility and your responsibility and your parents' responsibility that you learn," Buck said, according to Debra McLain, the class' teacher.

Buck continued his lesson in stupidity by dodging questions from angry students who asked about yesterday's Daily News story on the dearth of textbooks at the school."

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/education/2010/10/23/2010-10-23_hey_im_write_says_principal.html

[provis99]

158. Jesus, someone fire this fuckwad principal.

He's a complete disgrace, and an embarrassment to the profession.

[la la]

136. too bad

i never kept all the emails, memos and bulletins from my 'administrators'---they never have anyone proof their work---because---well, because they're * the administrator*!

an example: never knew the difference between it's, its, their, they're, there, i before e, ---and on and on....

[la la]

139. and these mistakes were in the daily bulletins as well-

where students were constantly termed 'studnuts'-

( bulletins were emailed from administrators-not through office secretary- who would have 'edited' and been seriously red-faced if they had made the mistakes!)

[Egnever]

159. The story linked is weak

there is lots more wrong with this guy than this email.

This article in the new york daily news is a little better with some details.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/10/23/2010-10-23_a_matter_of_principal_school_chief_andrew_buck_who_could_hardly_write_a_letter_m.html

Based on this article I agree with the parents. This guy needs to go.

[boppers]

170. An art teacher, promoted to Principal.

Uhm, no.

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JerseygirlCT]

188. My son's first principal in elementary school was like that

Pissed me off.

Fortunately, he was gone in a year, and a very bright and literate woman took his place.

[Quixote1818]

202. He is probably Dyslexic. Who gives a shit. Some of the most brilliant people

in the world can't spell because they learn differently. It's one tiny aspect of intelligence. One that gets way too much attention.

[Ginto]

204. If nothing else, this shows a lack of respect for his subordinates.

If I had read this message I would have wondered how this person became by boss. Then I would've hated my job just a little more. What type of degree do you need to be a principal and what kind of person dislikes books?

[defendandprotect]

209. Everyone says: "bad" grammar ... but isn't it really POOR grammar ... ???