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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 12:57 PM
Original message
Pledge(of Allegiance) controversy leads to death threat claims
Edited on Fri Oct-29-10 01:08 PM by RamboLiberal
Source: Chicago Daily Herald

Evanston police and the FBI say complaints have been filed over possible Internet death threats directed at two League of Women Voters officials stemming from a candidates debate in Grayslake.

Criticism started flying around cyberspace over volunteer moderator Kathy Tate-Bradish's perceived lukewarm reaction when she was asked if the Pledge of Allegiance would be recited before the 8th Congressional District debate on Oct. 21.

FBI spokesman Ross Rice confirmed Thursday that League of Women Voters Illinois Executive Director Jan Czarnik filed a report claiming she and Tate-Bradish have received Internet death threats. Czarnik triggered criticism after saying the pledge request was “phony patriotism” from a candidate's supporters.

“Her complaint has been received and is receiving due consideration,” Rice said.



Read more: http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20101028/news/710299724/



A similiar incident in Washington county south of Pittsburgh PA has Richard Mellon Scaife's Pittsburgh Tribune Review doing a better job then the "liberal" Pittsburgh Post-Gazette of calling out Repub congressman Tim Murphy for pulling this stunt Tuesday night. Watch for this in future debates!

Murphy, Connolly and a League of Woman Voters moderator were onstage about to begin the debate when Murphy asked if the pledge would be recited.

The moderator, obviously caught off guard, didn't immediately respond affirmatively. So both candidates and the crowd rose to profess the oath of loyalty.

Seemingly satisfied that no subversives had crashed the event, everyone then sat down.

Murphy's inquiry appeared to lack spontaneity. The pledge uttered in the auditorium followed by about 24 hours Glenn Beck's show on the Fox News Channel that aired a similar scene.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/columns/heyl/s_706616.html
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Next, they'll start insisting that the Lord's Prayer be
recited, and threatening all who don't participate. It's getting way out of hand.
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Probably be required to recite the Bill of Rights, too. n/t
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Oh, no, they don't want that. They'd rather you were just like them,
and have no idea what the Bill of Rights actually says. They just pull parts of it out and say those...usually not even complete sentences. They don't want anyone to know what's in there.
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JoDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. They can recite the Lord's Prayer
If I get equal time to chant the Shema at the top of my voice. And any Muslims can chant "Allah Akhbar!" as many times as they can in 3 minutes. Wiccans can recite the law of 3. Atheists can plug their ears and hum, or use the time in any way they find suitable.

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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. "The Doctrine of Continual Reaffirmation" . . .
from Catch-22, the chapter titled "Captain Black"


Almost overnight the Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was in full flower, and Captain Black was enraptured to discover himself spearheading it. He had really hit on something. All the enlisted men and officers on combat duty had to sign a loyalty oath to get their map cases from the intelligence tent, a second loyalty oath to receive their flak suits and parachutes from the parachute tent, a third loyalty oath for Lieutenant Balkington, the motor vehicle officer, to be allowed to ride from the squadron to the airfield in one of the trucks. Every time they turned around there was another loyalty oath to be signed. They signed a loyalty oath to get their pay from the finance officer, to obtain their PX supplies, to have their hair cut by the Italian barbers. To Captain Black, every officer who supported his Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was a competitor, and he planned and plotted twenty-four hours a day to keep one step ahead. He would stand second to none in his devotion to country. When other officers had followed his urging and introduced loyalty oaths of their own, he went them one better by making every son of a bitch who came to his intelligence tent sign two loyalty oaths, then three, then four; then he introduced the pledge of allegiance, and after that “The Star-Spangled Banner,” one chorus, two choruses, three choruses, four choruses. Each time Captain Black forged ahead of his competitors, he swung upon them scornfully for their failure to follow his example. Each time they followed his example, he retreated with concern and racked his brain for some new stratagem that would enable him to turn upon them scornfully again.

Without realizing how it had come about, the combat men in the squadron discovered themselves dominated by the administrators appointed to serve them. They were bullied, insulted, harassed and shoved about all day long by one after the other. When they voiced objection, Captain Black replied that people who were loyal would not mind signing all the loyalty oaths they had to. To anyone who questioned the effectiveness of the loyalty oaths, he replied that people who really did owe allegiance to their country would be proud to pledge it as often as he forced them to. And to anyone who questioned the morality, he replied that “The Star-Spangled Banner” was the greatest piece of music ever composed. The more loyalty oaths a person signed, the more loyal he was; to Captain Black it was as simple as that, and he had Corporal Kolodny sign hundreds with his name each day so that he could always prove he was more loyal than anyone else.
….

To Captain Piltchard and Captain Wren, the Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was a glorious pain in the ass, since it complicated their task of organizing the crews for each combat mission. Men were tied up all over the squadron signing, pledging and singing, and the missions took hours longer to get under way. Effective emergency action became impossible, but Captain Piltchard and Captain Wren were both too timid to raise any outcry against Captain Black, who scrupulously enforced each day the doctrine of “Continual Reaffirmation” that he had originated, a doctrine designed to trap all those men who had become disloyal since the last time they had signed a loyalty oath the day before. It was Captain Black who came with advice to Captain Piltchard and Captain Wren as they pitched about in their bewildering predicament. He came with a delegation and advised them bluntly to make each man sign a loyalty oath before allowing him to fly on a combat mission.

“Of course, it’s up to you,” Captain Black pointed out. “Nobody’s trying to pressure you. But everyone else is making them sign loyalty oaths, and it’s going to look mighty funny to the F.B.I. if you two are the only ones who don’t care enough about your country to make them sign loyalty oaths, too. If you want to get a bad reputation, that’s nobody’s business but your own. All we’re trying to do is help.”

….

“National defense is everybody’s job,” Captain Black replied to Milo’s objection. “And this whole program is voluntary, Milo – don’t forget that. The men don’t have to sign Piltchard and Wren’s loyalty oath if they don’t want to. But we need you to starve them to death if they don’t. It’s just like Catch-22. Don’t you get it? You’re not against Catch-22, are you?”

Doc Daneeka was adamant.

“What makes you so sure Major Major is a Communist?”

“You never heard him denying it until we began accusing him, did you? And you don’t see him signing any of our loyalty oaths.”

“You aren’t letting him sign any.”

“Of course not,” Captain Black explained. “That would defeat the whole purpose of our crusade. Look, you don’t have to play ball with us if you don’t want to. But what’s the point of the rest of us working so hard if you’re going to give Major Major medical attention the minute Milo begins starving him to death? I just wonder what they’re going to think up at Group about the man who’s undermining our whole security program. They’ll probably transfer you to the Pacific.”

Doc Daneeka surrendered swiftly. “I’ll go tell Gus and Wes to do whatever you want them to.”
…..

Captain Black had boundless faith in the wisdom, power and justice of Major —— de Coverley, even though he had never spoken to him before and still found himself without the courage to do so. He deputized Milo to speak to Major —— de Coverley for him and stormed out impatiently as he waited for the tall executive officer to return. Along with everyone else in the squadron, he lived in profound awe and reverence of the majestic, white-haired major with the craggy face and Jehovan bearing, who came back from Rome finally with an inuured eye inside a new celluloid eye patch and smashed his whole Glorious Crusade to bits with a single stroke.

Milo carefully said nothing when Major —— de Coverley stepped into the mess hall with his fierce and austere dignity the day he returned and found his way blocked by a wall of officers waiting in line to sign loyalty oaths. At the far end of the food counter, a group of men who had arrived earlier were pledging allegiance to the flag, with trays of food balanced in one hand, in order to be allowed to take seats at the table. Already at the tables, a group that had arrived still earlier was singing “The Star-Spangled Banner” in order that they might use the salt and pepper and ketchup there. The hubub began to subside slowly as Major —— de Coverley paused in the doorway with a frown of puzzled disapproval, as though viewing something bizarre. He started forward in a straight line, and the wall of officers before him parted like the Red Sea. Glancing neither left nor right, he strode indomitably up to the steam counter and, in a clear, full-bodied voice that was gruff with age and resonant with ancient eminence and authority, said:

“Gimme eat.”

Instead of eat, Corporal Snark gave Major —— de Coverley a loyalty oath to sign. Major —— de Coverley swept it away with mighty displeasure the moment he recognized what it was, his good eye flaring up blindingly with fiery disdain and his enormous old corrugated face darkening in mountainous wrath.

“Gimme eat, I said,” he ordered loudly in harsh tones that rumbled ominously through the silent tent like claps of distant thunder.

Corporal Snark turned pale and began to tremble. He glanced toward Milo pleadingly for guidance. For several terrible seconds there was not a sound. Then Milo nodded.

“Give him eat,” he said.

Corporal Snark began giving Major —— de Coverley eat. Major —— de Coverley turned from the counter with his tray full and came to a stop. His eyes fell on the groups of other officers gazing at him in mute appeal, and, with righteous belligerence, he roared:

“Give everybody eat!”

“Give everybody eat!” Milo echoed with joyful relief, and the Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade came to an end.

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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Promising liberty and justice for all, I am sure. n/t

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. I say again...Piss on ALL Flags!
Nationalism is one of the most effective tools that the "masters of the universe" have to divide and conquer the masses...

PISS ON ALL FLAGS! And all "nations"...

I am a citizen of Mother Earth...not some bullshit concept of imaginary lines drawn on maps...
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zogofzorkon Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. Everytime some flap is made by a flag kissing tool I reread e e cummings
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LeftinOH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. Of course when you say it- it must be spoken with appropriate patriotic zeal..
not some half-baked recitation.

Personally, I'd love to be at one of these meetings -just so I can insist that the pledge wasn't recited respectfully or clearly enough... and keep insisting each time, until they crowd gets fed up with it.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. I don't like the pledge of allegiance
Edited on Fri Oct-29-10 01:38 PM by kenfrequed
If we are going to do some kind of reading or speaking as to our identity, I would prefer people just read the preamble to the constitution. It is a superior bit of writing in every possible way: It is a collective statement of intent; it was actually written by our founding fathers; it speakd directly to our democratic form of government; and it isn't a damned loyalty oath to a static concept.

Plus I always liked that schoolhouse rock bit when I was a kid.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. Not a good thing when the Pledge is confused with a Loyalty Oath.
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. Not being snarky; I'm honestly trying to figure out
why you consider the pledge different from a loyalty oath.

It seems very 'oath-like': I pledge (promise) allegiance (fidelity/devotion/liege) to the flag, etc, etc (poor parsed clause following) . . .

I had to sign a 'loyalty oath' to teach in Nevada (don't get me started on that . . .). It begins with the phrase 'I <name> solemnly swear' and proceeds to insist on several unconstitutional things.

Is it the 'I swear' that you feel makes a loyalty oath different from a pledge?

Could you enlighten (no pun intended) me? Thanks.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-10 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. It is and it isn't. You make a good point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

It IS a loyalty oath, but it ISN'T as it isn't "binding" like a true loyalty oath. The Pledge is more like The Lords Prayer, to be recited quickly without reflection of its true significance. Very few people understand the legal history of what a "pledge" is. It's physical collateral held in trust in exchange for benefits offered. In other words, the implication is that in exchange for the so-called liberties and freedoms and economic promise this country portends to offer, a citizen is expected to give something in return for those benefits. Maybe his/her life defending the country against "enemies".

To me, a more dangerous "loyalty oath" would be like the ones you had to take during the Fifties (McCarthy) to take government jobs or teaching positions. If you didn't take the Oath or were judged to have broken that Oath, you didn't have a job. By contrast, you are constitutionally protected from retribution if you choose not to recite The Pledge.

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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Ah - thanks.
I'm an historian, so for me the 'pledge' (as with any other pledge) really is binding - I suppose because it reminds me of the feudal period, where the phrasing would have used 'pledge' rather than 'swear'.

I pledge my allegiance to my liege lord . . .
I pledge my troth . . .

That sort of thing. To 'pledge' used to have great meaning, but no more.

I agree that today the 'pledge' is largely meaningless - and also that true loyalty oaths, like the ridiculous one I had to sign about five years ago (out of the blue - and signed below my statement that I was signing it under duress, since I would have lost my job had I refused outright) are far more dangerous things.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. I stopped reciting the Pledge
several years ago. I often don't even stand up for it. Just like I don't bow my head when a public prayer is being said. About ten years ago, when my oldest was graduating from high school, at the Baccalaureate ceremony, when I didn't bow my head for the prayer, one of my son's classmates likewise didn't bow his head. We looked each other straight in the eye and smiled. It was a nice moment of solidarity.

Oh, and for everyone out there who says that a given prayer is "Non-sectarian", trust me, it's still Sectarian. It will be something Christian and Protestant, and those who were not raised as Protestants (and maybe even some that were) note how specifically Protestant and Christian the "Non-sectarian" prayer really is.
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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. Did Beck say anything about this?
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. His own words
-----

Now, what about czar — Jan Czarnik — just another regular woman voter from the League of Women Voters. Well — and she also worked with ACORN's Project Vote, which is funded by Tides, and Soros, his Democracy Alliance, which she also worked with progressive people for the American Way, which is a group that recently joined Tides to call for the advertisers to stop advertising on FOX because of this program, which is also funded by George Soros. It's weird, isn't it?

They're so neutral that it's almost like they're not. They're so neutral that they're almost like in bed with George Soros of Tides.

America, I mean, all you have to do — all of this stuff can be found. It's not hidden. It's not hidden. It's all the same people.

You are being duped. You got to get out and flood the voting booths next week. Do your own homework.

Don't take my word for it. Don't take the League of Women Voters. Ooh! Really? I'll add that to my list of people that I don't trust anymore.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,602023,00.html
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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deutschland über alles!
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
14. Flag idolaters, they must not have read the Ten Commandments; which they
want to post in public buildings.

Thanks for the thread, RamboLiberal.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. I was at this debate......Lots of Tea baggers there along with a bus that brought some in..
Edited on Fri Oct-29-10 03:00 PM by whathehell
and the word is it was "Planned" by TeaHadist Joe Walsh who is running against Democrat Melissa Bean.

What happened is, someone "asked" if we could say the POA..and the moderator said "no" simply because it wasn't part of the format...I swear, as if on cue, almost the entire room got up and said the Pledge....Stupid, show-offy crap.

I AM surprised that the woman received death threats, though..Hell, this is the blue state of Illinois and Grayslake is all of about twenty minutes from me.


It makes me glad I decided to make my car "non-partisan" and refrain from using my very anti-Repuke stickers:scared:
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iamtechus Donating Member (868 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. A way to put a damper on the pledge nonsense might be to introduce a substitute:
One such substitute for the "pledge" could be the preamble to the Constitution with slight modification:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for pledge to preserve and protect the constitution of the United States of America.


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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-10 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. I really like that substitution!
Next time someone's challenged to recite the pledge of allegiance, the preamble should be used instead.
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some guy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. It must be Sinclair Lewis time.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

We seem to be there.
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Permanut Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. I swear: I will be faithful
and obedient to the leader of the German state and people, Adolf Hitler, to observe the law, and to conscientiously fulfil my official duties, so help me God!

Decreed by the cabinet August 1934

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lunasun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. Let us hope that they all were wearing armbands ...oops!.. meant American flag pins
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
21. Rockin' a flag don't make you a hero.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-30-10 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
24. Yup. right on schedule
Last week King Glenn hates the LWV. This week they get death threats.

It's us or them people. Decide which you want it to be
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