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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 12:42 AM
Original message
Left-wing party explodes onto Canada election scene
Source: Reuters

Left-wing party explodes onto Canada election scene
By Randall Palmer Randall Palmer – Thu Apr 21, 6:00 pm ET

OTTAWA (Reuters) – The left-leaning New Democratic Party has exploded from an also-ran in Canada's election campaign to a potential spoiler that could change the Canadian balance of power.

All polls show a surge in support for the NDP, which advocates higher corporate taxes, more social spending and an early withdrawal from Afghanistan, and one showed the party ahead of the Liberals, which has been the major opposition party.

A strong NDP showing could help the governing Conservatives if it splits a left-leaning vote between Liberals and New Democrats, or between New Democrats and the separatist Bloc Quebecois in Quebec, allowing a Conservative candidate to win a race with well under half the vote in an individual district.

But the polls don't guarantee the Conservatives the support they need to win a majority government, and the NDP could also wrest seats from the Conservatives, bringing the likelihood of a third consecutive Parliament where the Conservatives are the largest party but support from others to stay in power.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110421/wl_canada_nm/canada_us_politics
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. I hope the Conservatives do not win with a majority, then we are fucked.
We are becoming a teabagger state unfortunately! Harper was never good for Canada and now we have Ignatieef, who is not good for us either. Jack Layton is very promising but he is being undermined by the Bloc Quebecois! Same shit, different day!
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Keith Bee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Ignatieff. That's a Russian name, isn't it?
OH MY GOD OH MY GOD! :scared:

:P
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. He claims it's Ukrainian, actually.
n/t.
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chatnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. It is -- his father was born in St Petersburg
And his paternal grandparents were Count and Princess Ignatieff, the former an advisor to Tsar Nikolai II.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
50. Oh...so the "Liberals" are led by a heriditary Tsarist...Great, just great...
:eyes:
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
67. Ignatieff is a complete squid too
Several years ago, just after 911, he wrote warmongering articles in the newspaper.

I think he regards himself as a 'liberal interventionist' eg he is another complete squid like blair.

He is on my 'persons to be unpleasant to' list.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
2. from what canadians here have been saying
the liberals are a corporate party, their two major parties are not unlike our own. The NDP sounds to me like a real progressive party building strength to defeat the corporate oligarch stranglehold. More power to 'em.
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Very_Boring_Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Wrong
Edited on Fri Apr-22-11 02:59 AM by Very_Boring_Name
The Liberals are not "corporate," despite what the NDP sycophants try and claim. In fact it was the Liberals who brought in public financing in order to erode corporate influence on Canadian elections, and it is the Liberals who are running on a platform of raising taxes on corporations. Every single progressive jewel of Canada, from our universal healthcare to our gay marriage equality to our charter of rights and freedoms, was brought in by the Liberal party of Canada.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Most of the "progressive" measures Liberal governments have brought in
were in times(the Lester Pearson era and Trudeau's 1972-74 minority government)where they needed NDP support to stay in power. With a majority, the Liberals were more likely to impose austerity budgets(under Chretien, who also broke his campaign promise to scrap NAFTA, a measure that was only beneficial to Canada's super-rich)switch from interventionist to pro-corporate economic policies(under Trudeau AFTER the Liberals regained a majority in '74 because of the popular NDP policies they implemented)and impose fascistic "law and order" policies like Trudeau's implementation of the War Measures Act in 1970(a situation in which the Liberals essentially imposed a state of emergency and carried out mass arrests of leftists over a couple of kidnappings in Quebec).

Liberal governments in Canada are only left-of-center when parliamentary conditions force them to be.

This is why the Liberals are collapsing and the NDP is emerging as the true progressive alternative to the Tories.

This is what happens when you have a "Liberal" leader that looks the other way about torture, keeps a right-wing Tory minority government in power by providing the votes that passed dozens of pieces of reactionary legislation(most of which a Liberal government would never repeal)and that clearly takes the view of the elites rather than the people on most of the issues of the day.

The Liberals had their chance.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. That looks accurate. (nt)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. Sounds a lot like the U.S., only we have no equivalent of the NDP, so we've been totally "screwn."
Edited on Fri Apr-22-11 07:36 AM by No Elephants
Carter's Presidency, 1977-81, was the last Presidency before the takeover of the United States of America by the plutocracy/plutonomy was completed, courtesy of the DLC, New Democrats, Third Way, No Labels and their ilk, now known as the DNC.

Thrty years and some months after Carter left office, even Reagan is starting to look a bit liberal in comparison to his successors, all of whom professed to admire him, yet govern further right than he did.

ETA: Do you suppose we might borrow the NDP for a bit?
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Very_Boring_Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
62. The NDP is the ralph nader of Canada
Many Americans around this place have the wrong idea. It's important to understand that the NDP forced the last liberal government to fall, because it knew it could pick up seats from them, even though a conservative government was assured if an election were held. The NDP runs candidates in ridings it has no hope of winning, and siphons votes from the left resulting in huge gains for the conservatives. The mainstream left in Canada detests the NDP.
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laundry_queen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #62
72. Bull
the mainstream left in Canada IS the NDP.

Also, there are huge amounts of people here in the West who wouldn't vote liberal with a gun to their heads, but have no issues with the NDP. They are the future of the left in the west.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
73. You
Have me quite confused.

Who is the mainstream left in Canada?
Who is the left in Canada?
Who is the mainstream centre in Canada?
Who is the mainstream right in Canada?
Who is the right in Canada?

Quite confusing, all of these classifications. Perhaps after these definitions. we could define the qualifications for each category.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
25. In US, they've been able to swing to right by buying government ...
campaign funds, etal --

How have they been doing it in Canada? Isn't your system much saner than ours?

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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
56. Details and comparisons here (link):
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Browsed it quickly -- and think it suggests corporations have been buying your government?
If not -- I'll have to devote a bit more time to the links!!

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Very_Boring_Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #58
66. Corporations have virtually NO influence in Canadian politics, for one main reason
In Canada, party discipline is VERY VERY important. It's not like America where members of congress can basically vote however they like. In Canada, the vast majority of the time you vote with your party or you will be kicked out of your party (No exceptions on important votes). In other words, even if you're a politician who is funded by corporations it won't matter, because those corporations can't sway your vote, you have to vote with your party. On top of this, most of Canada's elections are publicly funded (there is a cap on how much each candidate can spend, and parties get money for each vote they receive, so corporate money is useless anyways).
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. OK -- then what is moving your politics to the right? Certainly not concen for public welfare!
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Very_Boring_Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. The left vote is split among 4 parties, the right wing has only 1 party
Edited on Sat Apr-23-11 10:44 AM by Very_Boring_Name
70% of the country still votes for the left wing parties, but the 30% is enough for the conservatives to win a plurality of seats, putting them in charge. Plus its important to realize that "right" in Canada is different from America. Our conservative party as a whole is probably slightly to the left of President Obama, though what's scary is that the guy leading it is probably to the right of rick santorum.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Still hard to imagine --
though I understand that you are doing everything you can to explain it!!

Puzzlin'!!!

:)
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
31. Could it be that NDP and Green Parties keep your Liberal Party from veering
too far to the right, as has (IMO) our Democratic Party? If so, ensuring that one of those Parties is strong may be essential.

The refrain from our Democratic Party has been, "The Left has nowhere else to go." Therefore, our Democratic Party rarely, if ever, worries about losing the votes of the Left, which leaves our Democratic Party totally free to court our nation's right and even to show a foolhardy (MO) amount of contempt for the Left.

This is especially dangerous for us now that the Tea Party is moving conservatives even further right.

If we had one viable Party on the Left, our Democratic Party would have to check its ever rightward march.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. it could indeed be!
Although keep in mind that the Green Party is not "left" in any sense, here.

The Liberals have, for decades, had to court the left vote, precisely because there is a place for the left to put its vote otherwise, and have in some cases had to adopt proposals from the left in order to stay in power in minority government situations. That's how we got universal health care and public pensions. The Liberal drive to get and keep power could always be counted on to persuade it to do what was needed to that end.
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Very_Boring_Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #31
63. Yes, and that is not in dispute
The problem with the NDP is that there are many many ridings where they have ZERO hope of winning, yet they run candidates who siphon votes from the Liberal candidate, giving the win to the conservative by margins of 2 or 3 percent. This is why I have HUGE respect for the green party, because it has come out in previous elections and told its members that if the green candidate has no chance of winning, to vote for the person who has the best hope of beating the conservative.

As much shit as I give the NDP around here, I think they've contributed enormously as far as policy goes, and I'd support a Liberal-NDP merge in a heartbeat.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
27. Right
As in yes, the Liberals and the Conservatives are both right-wing, and both are moving farther right.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/canada2005

http://www.politicalcompass.org/canada2008


http://www.politicalcompass.org/canada2011


A difference, historically, was always that the Liberals were smarter about getting and retaining power -- getting power by portraying themselves as "liberal" in the social sense, retaining it by introducing legislative measures that secured the support of the NDP when the Liberal Party was in a minority position. The Liberals lost their smarts a while back. It comes from too much believing their own story about being the Natural Governing Party, l'état c'est le Parti libéral, if you will.

The thing with the polls is ... a lot of people will poll NDP, but go out and vote Liberal.

And the Liberals are quite adept at convincing people that if they don't vote Liberal, the sky will fall, i.e. the Conservative Party will bring the world to an end.

I was an NDP candidate in 1988 in a safe Liberal riding (one of the safest in the country). The Liberals were running one of their the world as we know it will end campaigns against Mulroney. (They might actually have a point this time around ...) My share of the vote fell about 5% because soft NDP voters became convinced they had to vote Liberal to defeat the Conservative candidate in that riding ... where the Liberal had had about 50% of the vote in a multi-way split the previous year.

Smart voting is the only option for Canadians who care most about defeating Harper: strategic voting. I live in a safe NDP riding. I will vote NDP. If I lived in a riding where the biggest threat to the Conservative candidate was the Liberal, I would hold my nose and vote Liberal. I did that and voted Progressive Conservative in the 1970s, to vote against Pierre Trudeau, who was economically right-wing despite his "social liberal" rep, and whom I did not trust an inch.

Foreigners might be interested in this site to see how this works:

http://www.projectdemocracy.ca/

"Project Democracy is a tool to help you determine if there is a way to "amp up" your vote and stop a Harper majority. By using a riding by riding election prediction model based on the most up to date public opinion polls, we can tell you which Party is best positioned to defeat the Conservative in your riding. Just enter your postal code in the box to the right."
(or browse by the map)

For example, this is the riding that Parliament is actually located in:

"This looks like a safe NDP seat with the Conservatives trailing in third place. This is a Liberal/NDP fight to the extent it is in question. Vote your preference."

Here's one of the "key ridings", in British Columbia:

http://www.projectdemocracy.ca/west-vancouver-sunshine-coast-sea-sky-country

"This is a straight up battle between the Liberals and Conservatives. Even with former Liberal Blair Wilson incumbent running as a Green last election they were not competitive. This election the race will be closer and it is possible for Liberal Dan Veniez to defeat Conservative John Weston. A correction for Blair Wilson's absence as a Green incumbent has been added. Progressive voters should come together and vote Liberal in this riding to unseat the Conservative in a vulnerable swing riding."

and one in Quebec:

http://www.projectdemocracy.ca/beauport-limoilou

"In the last election, Conservative Sylvie Boucher only won by 820 votes, so she can be unseated. The Bloc have the only chance to take this seat away from Harper's Conservatives."


I'm going to have to have a browse and see whether the recommendations are reflecting the rise of NDP support in Quebec. ;)
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Very_Boring_Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
5. To be fair, the NDP has a "surge" every election campaign. It rarely translates into more seats
Their last election "surge" that had them tied for 2nd with the Liberals in the polls during the final weeks of the campaign only translated into +8 seats. The Liberal campaign was an absolute abortion, yet the libs still ended up with twice as many seats, and twice the popular vote.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. This is the first campaign, however, in which the polls have shown the NDP
to be LEADING all other parties in Quebec. Even the Bloc Quebecois.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 02:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. Polls aren't reliable these days
I say that as someone who has to pay attention to survey fatigue and survey response rates as part of his job. Response rates are dismally low, so the basis for scientific sampling is just not there.

That being said, I think the Canadian election will probably be a surprise on many levels.
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Very_Boring_Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Nanos still has the NDP 10 points below the Liberals
Plus NDP support always collapses on election day when they vote strategically to keep Harper out.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. That won't happen if the NDP is AHEAD of the Liberals in the last polls
There's almost nothing Iggy can do to reverse the slide now. This is what happens when the "Liberal" party has a right-of-center leader who backs American imperialism and votes to keep Canadian troops in Afghanistan for years to come.
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cabot Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. I usually vote NDP
I am so excited for the NDP. Jack Layton would make a fantastic PM. In my riding, however, it is a contest between the green party candidate and the liberal party candidate. i'm thinking of voting green. she has an excellent chance of beating the current MP.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Dumb.
Backing out when the NDP has the chance to take over is dumb. Super dumb.
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cabot Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. In my riding
the NDP is far behind - in fourth place behind the conservative candidate. I don't vote liberal, so I will vote green as the green candidate is neck and neck with the liberal.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Now I understand. My apologies. :) (nt)
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cabot Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. No worries :)
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
39. Which riding is that?
From what I'd heard, the ONLY riding the Greens have any chance of winning at all is Saanich-Gulf Islands in southern British Columbia, where the Green Party leader is the candidate. And in that riding, the race is between the Greens and the Tories.
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cabot Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Vancouver Centre
Adriane Carr has a lot of name recognition. She and Hedy Fry are quite close.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
57. the Green Party is funded by conservatives.
There a stalking horse intended to split the left-wing vote. Even their former founder admitted this.
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Very_Boring_Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #57
64. Bullshit
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cabot Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
13. The biggest mistake the Liberals made
was not choosing ken dryden to be the party leader. they would have nailed down support in quebec. no one likes iggy.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
30. Actually "Iggy's" support is growing.
:)
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cabot Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. I hope so
I would prefer him to Harper.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
19. NDP surge = Conservative majority
Canada is about to drop of the charts in terms of being run by a right wing fascists. And it's all due to vote splitting between centre and centre-left parties.

Way to go intransigent parties and idiot voters! Hello right wing poster country! Buh bye public health care!
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. oh, yeah, no one should ever vote for the government they want.
Do you understand that your position logically leads to supporting one party government where you're just voting for the person you hate least? Shit, why not just vote only for conservatives, but making sure they're YOUR conservatives?!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. The sky is falling!
Just what I was talking aboaut in my post above. ;)

The Liberal hacks and shills think that enough people will believe their scary bedtime stories that they'll vote Liberal when they'd rather vote NDP.

Unfortunately, the Liberals are sometimes right on this.

And even more unfortunately, in some ridings it could mean shifting enough votes from the NDP to the Liberal candidate that the Conservative candidate wins a plurality.

But then, I guess Liberal hacks and shills don't really care whether the Liberal Party or the Conservative Party is in power. The corporate tax rates and breaks will be basically the same either way. ;)

"Way to go intransigent parties and idiot voters!" indeed.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. Very valid point, but please see Reply 31.
Edited on Fri Apr-22-11 10:43 AM by No Elephants
Seems as though the Left of both our nations is between the proverbial rock and hard place.

If the Left keeps voting center right, the center right keeps moving further and further right (as does the right).

On the other hand, if the Left abandons the center right, the right may win one or more elections.

Do you bite the bullet short term, in hopes of building a viable Left in a few elections, or do you keep allowing the center right to move further and further right, secure in the knowledge that "The Left has nowhere else to go."

Which is worse? :shrug:

And which nation is "screwn" worse, the nation whose Left is fragmented into three Parties, or the nation whose center right Party has no viable challenger on its left at all? :shrug:
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
38. Bullshit. The Tory vote share is falling too.
It's a lie to say that Canadians HAVE to vote Liberal to stop Harper.

And the NDP is LEADING in Quebec at the moment...something the Liberals will probably never manage again.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. What are the parties' positions on sealing?
That MUST stop.
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TheeHazelnut Donating Member (166 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
21. never use the word "explodes" in conjunction with politics! nt
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
22. One thing to remember about Jack Layton.
Layton was the enabler who put Stephen Harper in office. He was the one who forced the no-confidence vote that ousted Paul Martin, so the rise of the right-wing can be laid at his feet.

Similar to why Nick Clegg will never be trusted again in Britain.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. and how's that playing these days?
Snork. There's just no end to the hacking and shilling. ;)

I trust our USAmerican friends understand that in Canada, this kind of noise is not regarded as falling anywhere in the vicinity of the progressive segment of the political spectrum.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. It doesn't matter anyhow. Layton will be gone soon.
He is ill, and even if he does by some strange fluke of a coalition become PM he will not serve long.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. got any more?
I'm sure you must have! They issue them with the party card, do they?

:rofl:
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Jack Layton is fighting cancer
and the general consensus is that he will stand down after the election to concentrate on his health.

If there is an NDP/Liberal/Bloc coalition that makes him PM I have no doubt he will serve for a while to implement policies he wants, and to be remembered as the first NDP PM, but he won't serve long.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Jack Layton's cancer was caught early and is in remission
Edited on Fri Apr-22-11 05:32 PM by Ken Burch
There is nothing lower than using someone's health to attack them in a campaign. You should be ashamed.

The real problem is that the Liberals haven't been liberal at all since Trudeau retired...if they were, they'd have this thing locked up.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. I'm not arguing for the Liberals either.
They did forsake their base, but as was pointed out elsewhere in this thread, they always do that when their feet are not held to the fire.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. Only an NDP vote can stop the Tories now in most ridings
The Liberals are unelectable in Western Canada(the NDP is gaining strongly in the polls in B.C., and now also gaining in Manitoba and Saskatchewan).

The Liberals have no chance any longer of making gains in Quebec. Only the NDP can gain there.

And Toronto, now that the Liberal chances are collapsing in the rest of Canada, will likely slip away from Iggy as well.

There may not be much of anything for Justin Trudeau to take over after the election, even if he DOES want the Liberal leadership.

(I get it that you're not arguing for the Liberals, but feel compelled to say this for their hacks in this thread).
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
68. The worst thing that happened in Canadian politics
from a historical standpoint was the total collapse of the Progressive Conservatives. Forcing the remnants of the old Tories into the hands of the likes of Preston Manning and Stockwell Day united the far right in Canada while the left remained fractured.

Sooner or later, the leftist parties are going to have to learn to work together and co-operate (and not just in strategic voting) or one of them will have to die and make room for the other. Until then, the far right will control Canada through inaction of the moderates and the leftists.
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cabot Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. The Sponsorship Scandal
had a lot to do with the liberals becoming a minority party in 2004.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #43
61. I've sometimes wondered if Jean Chretien caused that scandal to happen
in order to make sure that Paul Martin couldn't get a majority after taking over as Liberal Party leader. From what I've heard, Chretien is capable of that kind of LBJ-style payback.
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
46. I miss Ed Broadbent.
I think Honest Ed would actually win an election.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. I was just saying in the Canada forum
When I was a candidate in 84, a good 1/4 of my vote was owed directly to Ed and his performance in the debates -- votes from people who would not otherwise have voted NDP, or voted at all. (Back then I'm pretty sure we had 2 English debates, 1 French debate.) All I had to do on the doorstep was say to people: So, did you watch the debate? and listen to them tell me how great they thought Ed was. Then I'd offer them a hastily photocopied "issue sheet" on something I thought would interest them (we did not anticipate that level of interest in my safe Liberal riding!) ... and then ... they would ask me whether I had anything else they could read. The first time that happened I about fell over.

It seems Jack is getting a similar response this time. I don't quite see it myself, but who am I to say nay? ;)
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
49. That is a lie
It has been repeatedly proven that, even if Layton and the NDP HAD voted for the Liberal government in the non-confidence motion, the motion would still have passed by a vote of 153-151(the Tories AND the Bloc Quebecois were united in passing it)and that, therefore, the NDP was NOT to blame for Harper. Also, even if Martin had survived that vote, he'd pledged to call an election within two months anyway, so it made no difference. Nothing was going to happen in those two months that would have switched any significant number of votes.

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Very_Boring_Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #49
65. Nothing would have happened in those two months? Are you SERIOUS?
The sponsorship scandal report was due to be released, which exonerated Martin from any wrongdoing. Considering most Canadians blamed Martin and thought he was somehow involved, I'd say that counts as "something"
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
24. ttt
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
44. Recommend
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
45. Recommend
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
48. Thanks to all for the informative discussion! Some thoughts on Latin American leftist victories.
One advantage of a parliamentary system is that there IS a Left to at least contest the corpo-fascist policies of the center/right, to keep the pressure on, and to win major victories such as universal free medical care, by pressuring the "centrist" corpo-fascists when that is possible. Seems like those kind of victories are over, though, for the impoverished majority of the populations in both our countries. And we really need to ask WHY.

Our extremely rancid "two-party" system in the U.S. has failed us, on an epic scale. The corpo-fascists are now set to dismantle the last vestiges of the "New Deal"--already small and inadequate Social Security pensions and minimal health care for the elderly--as well as destroying public education for children. (They destroyed free public college/university education long ago.) This has nothing whatever to do with Bushwhack-created "deficits" or the Bushwhack-induced Depression. Both things were VERY PREVENTABLE by the very people who are now descrying them and screaming that "austerity" for the poor is the only answer.

Utter scumbags, they are. Murderous scumbags.

I have analyzed this situation as attributable to the corporate-run 'TRADE SECRET' vote 'counting' systems that now infest every state in the U.S. Half the states do NO AUDIT AT ALL of these 'TRADE SECRET' machine tabulations. The other half do only a miserably inadequate 1% audit (comparison of ballots to machine totals). And the whole thing (80% monopoly) is now run by ONE, PRIVATE, FAR RIGHTWING-CONNECTED corporation: ES&S, which bought out Diebold. This is not the only thing wrong with our election system, but it is the WORST thing--as well as the latest coup-- aimed at making reform IMPOSSIBLE--that is, destroying our democracy altogether.

And I've compared this situation to Latin America, where strong leftist governments have been elected in Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay, Paraguay, Nicaragua and (not as strong but still leftist) El Salvador and Guatemala.

HOW DID THEY DO IT? They have horrible corporate media. They also have a lot of bad money (--a lot of it right out of our own pockets, in USAID and other U.S. funding of rightwing groups all over Latin America).

The main difference between the U.S. and Latin America is 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting. They have honest, transparent elections. We don't.

But in reviewing this thread, I've been wondering why Canada's quite transparent vote counting system hasn't resulted in better outcomes.

Another thing that has been part of the leftist democracy movement, and leftist victories, in Latin America, has been a recognition of the entrenched power of "two party" systems (like ours) which colluded to produce U.S.-favored, "Neo-liberal" impoverishment of the majority of people. The leftists, the social movements, the grass roots movements and all who have contributed to leftist victories, have fought this "two party" entrenchment in various ways, but I need to find out more about HOW they have done this--how they have broken entrenched power. One way, I believe, is by re-writes and popular plebiscites on their constitutions--something that is a lot easier to do in most of Latin America than it is in the U.S. or Canada.

Actually, I don't know about Canada--does British law still basically control Canadian fundamental law? Seems like I read about the Queen's rep doing something--overruling something--in Canada, recently. What IS Canada's Constitution? And how easy is to amend or re-write?

In Paraguay, the left needed to defeat a ONE-party system--the fascist Colorado Party, which had earlier inflicted a heinous dictatorship on Paraguay. The Colorado Party ruled for 60 years! Their problem was the fractiousness of the left--the left was split into a lot of different, squabbling parties and interests. They needed a unifying figure--Fernando Lugo (the beloved "bishop of the poor")--whose election as president in 2008 overturned the Colorado Party's grip on power. (All the new leftist leaders of the region attended the inauguration. What a party they had!) (And Evo Morales had sent Lugo a message when he got elected: "Welcome to the Axis of Evil!")

Though I need to find out more about how the Latin American left has overcome "two party" entrenchment and the "fractious left" syndrome where that was a problem, it seems obvious that this huge leftist democracy movement has had MULTIPLE strategies--FIRST, honest, transparent elections (something that Latin Americans and international election groups, like the Carter Center, worked on for several decades); grass roots organizing (trade unionists, Indigenous, small farmers--campesinos--urban poor, women's groups and others); courageous, persistent, big protest movements; attacking the existing, entrenched parties; constitutional reform movements.

The leftist governments and new leftist leaders have, in turn, helped each other--both economically and by having each other's backs when the U.S. tried to topple them. I want to add this new spirit of cooperation in Latin America to the list of victorious leftist strategies, though I know about it mostly on a leader-to-leader level, not the people-to-people level. The list thus far:

For Latin America:

1. TRANSPARENT VOTE COUNTING.

2. Grass roots organization.

3. Think big. (Don't settle for scraps from the table. Think and act for REAL change.)

Additions: (with U.S. and Canada in mind)

4. Break up entrenched "two party" elites. (Constitutional reform?)

5. Unite fractitious leftists, where needed.

6. Unity--collective strength (among groups, across borders, including leaders)

Unity:

Brazil and Venezuela have very notably worked closely together to "raise all boats" in the region and to support economic/political integration and UNITY in Latin America. Venezuelans themselves stopped the U.S. coup in 2002 (before all the other leftist governments were elected). Brazil's Lula da Silva notably had Hugo Chavez's back, after Lula got elected ('04), on continued U.S. plots against Chavez. All the leftist leaders got involved in stopping the U.S. organized/funded white separatist insurrection against Evo Morales in Bolivia in 2008, and they also acted in accord when the U.S./Colombia bombed Ecuador in early 2008, trying to start a U.S. proxy war between Colombia and Ecuador/Venezuela.

They have been very successful on unity actions such as these (and Brazil's new president, Dilma Rousseff is also very committed to it), but not so successful in Central America, when a U.S.-supported rightwing coup d'etat toppled the elected leftist president, Mel Zelaya. Brazil's Lula tried strenuously to reverse it, but could not. UNITY, however, is the watchword. Unity, cooperation, "raising all boats," creating and exercising collective strength against the Corpo-Fascist Empire to the north.

This new cooperation in Latin America is entirely a leftist creation. It has very clear, obvious, stated goals: social justice (education, health care, decent wages, help to small business, land reform, fair taxation, human rights including food, shelter, water), social progress (racial/sexual/religious equality), the peoples' control of their own resources (such as oil), fair trade, national and regional sovereignty, regional collective strength, regional peace and world peace. These goals and unity in pursuing them create prosperity.

Much of Latin America landed on its feet in the U.S./Bushwhack-induced economic meltdown precisely because they had elected LEFTIST governments in time to head off ruinous U.S./IMF/World Bank policies. Latin America is showing an AVERAGE of more than 7% economic growth precisely because they defied U.S. dictates on deregulation, privatization, "austerity" for the poor and other "first world" banksterism and corporate gangsterism.

The left is strongest in South America and is gaining in Central America (which is why the U.S. supported the rightwing coup in Honduras). And this new spirit of cooperation is most visible, of course, among the leaders. But I wonder what lesson it might carry--and what the story is in Latin America--on people to people cooperation and unity across national borders, prior to the election of good governments. I've seen some hints of it but I don't know much. I think that, for instance, the Indigenous don't have a lot of respect for colonial borders. They have vital interests--the environment, Mother Earth--that transcend borders. I think this affected at least one election (Peru, a couple of years back). I don't know how much about trans-border trade unionist or social movement interaction on political change in Latin America. (It's happening NOW, but did it before all these electoral victories?)

So, here are some things to find out more about, or think about, as to reform in the U.S. and Canada:

How did the Latin Americans defeat entrenched "two party" oligarchies, or pull together fractious leftist groups in multi-party situations?

Is constitutional reform a feasible option in Canada? (I doubt if it is in the U.S., but maybe.)

How to get rid of the corporate-run 'TRADE SECRET' election theft machines in the U.S.?

How to get the help that Latin America got on creating honest, transparent election systems in the U.S.?
(International election monitoring groups need to be INVITED by the existing government.)

Does Canada need election reform? In what way?

How can people in Canada and the U.S. help each other bring about general reform? How can Latin American leaders and peoples help?

Latin America is struggling with a number of huge problems: On-going murders of trade unionists, teachers, community activists, peasant farmers, political leftists, journalists and others in the U.S. client states of Colombia and Honduras; the horrendous impacts of the corrupt, murderous, failed U.S. "war on drugs" (evident recently in Mexico, but affecting much of Central America and Colombia); South America has largely freed itself from the militarist/fascist aspects of this horrible U.S. "war", and some countries--Bolivia, Ecuador, Venezuela--have evicted it entirely); vast displacement of peasant farmers in Colombia and Mexico; the plight of migrant workers in the U.S.; U.S.-inflicted election fraud in Haiti and Honduras; Pentagon ambitions and U.S. "free trade for the rich" in the U.S. "circle the wagons" region of Central America/the Caribbean.

These issues can draw us all together. We should not let them divide us. Quite a lot of grief in Latin America would be alleviated by democracy being restored in the U.S., and thus democratic controls on U.S. policy. The U.S. government needs to stop shilling for multinational corporations and war profiteers, and the Canadian government needs to stop aiding and abetting this, in Latin America.

Latin Americans are LEADING THE WAY on restoration of democracy in the Americas. We need to know this and to study it for what we can learn. But on the whole, the best thing we can do for them--who have suffered so much at our governments' hands--is to get back control of our own countries and end the militarisim and oppression that is spawned on our shores.

More on unity:

U.S. and Canadian leaders have unity but not for social justice, for its opposite: they are unified in oppressing and impoverishing us. Our Democratic Party leaders, for instance, utterly betrayed us, and democracy itself, by their support for corporate-run, 'TRADE SECRET' vote tabulation. They, too, like the Bushwhacks, seek unity with the Corporate Rulers, not with us, the victims. Canada's leaders support these corporate war profiteers against us.

It's interesting that the Bushwhacks tried to create a literal barrier to the south--a "wall"--and border restrictions to the north--one method of disunifying all of us who seek peace and social justice. Another interesting tidbit: One of the Honduran coup generals said that their coup was "intended to prevent communism from Venezuela reaching the United States" (--quoted in a report on the coup by the Zelaya government-in-exile). The restrictions on the U.S./Canada border may have a similar purpose: specifically to restrict our knowledge about the Canadian health care system, while they dismantle Medicare and drive us all to ruination on health care costs.

Venezuela is not a communist country (except in this coup general's mind). But it IS a socially just country, which has not only provided health care to all of its citizens, but recently earned designation as "THE most equal country in Latin America" on income distribution, by the UN Economic Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean--something our corpo-fascist newsmongers will never tell you.

Amother thing they won't tell you is that Venezuela is not alone. Venezuela--the pioneer of the leftist democracy revolution--is acting in UNITY with its leftist neighbors on their common goals of social justice, Latin American sovereignty and regional peace. Chavez, for instance, met monthly with Brazil's Lula on their common goals and strategies. Lula and other leaders adamantly resisted U.S. efforts to "isolate" Venezuela. And Lula's successor, Dilma Rousseff, just strongly re-stated those policies of unity, peace and cooperation in Latin America.

The lesson here, on the leadership level, is that unity and collective strength are vitally important not just to achieving democracy and good government, but to keeping it.

The Corporate Rulers have divided us--we, the majority of the people in Canada, the U.S. and Latin America who want peace and social justice and good government. They fractured our communities in the north, displaced multimillions of people in the south, and now are relentlessly bad-mouthing the great leaders of the south, and plotting against them. They have also played upon our fears and the worst of their operatives are clearly trying to stoke up racial, religious, national and economic hatreds.

We are the citizens of the "New World." We once stood for democracy to the rest of the world. We need to pull together and recreate democracy in the U.S. and Canada, and support it in Latin America. Think big. Think of a "New World" that doesn't pit one workforce against another, and one people against another, and in which the north isn't robbing and oppressive the south--a "New World" that closely cooperates on justice for all, and on a decent life for all--a "New World" that isn't polluted and trashed, but green again and new. We can still do this. We can. Think BIG.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
53. Oh! Canada!!!!!
:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
54. Oh Canada!
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JosefK Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
55. Time to move
..and find someone north of the border to marry.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
71. Yaaay NDP !!
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