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Fukushima nuclear plant may have suffered 'melt-through', Japan admits

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:11 AM
Original message
Fukushima nuclear plant may have suffered 'melt-through', Japan admits
Source: Guardian.co.uk

Molten nuclear fuel in three reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant is likely to have burned through pressure vessels, not just the cores, Japan has said in a report in which it also acknowledges it was unprepared for an accident of the severity of Fukushima.

It is the first time Japanese authorities have admitted the possibility that the fuel suffered "melt-through" – a more serious scenario than a core meltdown.

The report, which is to be submitted to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), said fuel rods in reactors No 1, 2 and 3 had probably not only melted, but also breached their inner containment vessels and accumulated in the outer steel containment vessels.

The plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco), says it believes the molten fuel is being cooled by water that has built up in the bottom of the three reactor buildings.



Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/08/fukushima-nuclear-plant-melt-through?CMP=twt_gu



What does that mean and what do we do about it now?
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athena Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. None of this is all that surprising.
If there is no cooling to remove the heat from the nuclear reactions, the temperature will rise. This means the fuel will melt, pool up on the bottom of the containment vessel, and melt through that, too. There was no reason to think that this wouldn't happen. Japan should have done more to re-establish the cooling in the first few hours after the accident -- they should have brought generators from elsewhere, asked the world for immediate help, whatever it took. I don't know what they were thinking.

All this means is that it will be nearly impossible to contain the radiation being released into the environment. A portion of Japan will become uninhabitable for centuries, as is a portion of the Ukraine because of the Chernobyl accident. I suggest that everyone read this article about the aftermath of Chernobyl. I quote:
While some radioactive elements in nuclear fuel decay quickly, cesium’s half-life is 30 years and strontium’s is 29 years. Scientists estimate that it takes 10 to 13 half-lives before life and economic activity can return to an area. That means that the contaminated area — designated by Ukraine’s Parliament as 15,000 square miles, around the size of Switzerland — will be affected for more than 300 years. All last week, workers frantically tried to cool the six reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi plant 140 miles north of Tokyo. But one had to look at Ukraine to understand the sheer tedium and exhaustion of dealing with the aftermath of a meltdown. It is a problem that does not exist on a human time frame.


This is the risk we take when we build fission reactors.
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oldbanjo Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. These are not portable Generators their huge.
I doubt any Country has a spare.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. kr
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
48. The Japanese Defense Force Tried to Bring Generators In. The Roads Were Fuku'ed
These generators were, apparently, too big to transport by helicopter, and the roads were damaged and blocked by debris.
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bongbong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. What REALLY makes me angry
The idiots who designed this plant put the backup cooling pumps very close to ground level. They were BEGGING for a tsunami or other flooding to cause them to fail. There is a small but finite chance that Fukushima will kill millions of people (through cancer). It's already a sure thing that it will kill thousands.

The single fact about Fukushima that should enrage people the most is that simply locating the pumps on an elevated platform, with more backup power available, would have saved many, many lives. This was such an obvious, yet egregious error/cost-cutting measure that I believe the people who did it wanted the world to end and/or to kill many people. Naturally the responsible parties will never face any consequences.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. They actively planned for 30 foot high Tsunami waves.
They knew Tsunami was a huge risk, so there was protection in place for absolutely huge, 30 foot, waves.

The waves got 35 feet high.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #41
56. Global Warming continues to intensify ...
There was movement to close the Fukushima nuclear reactors because of

increasing seismic activity --

The plants were built to withstand 7.0 earthquakes --

Global Warming -- the melting of the glaciers -- will bring more numerous

earthquakes and more intense earthquakes.

In turn, earthquakes generate volcanic activity.


The larger the earthquake the larger the tsunami -- and the greater the number and

intensity of aftershocks. There are been more than 350 aftershocks connected to

this 9 earthquake.

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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #56
66. Would you please post some links
to info about melting glaciers causing volcanic eruptions and intensifying earthquakes?

Thanks.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Here are some links
These are from Joe Romm, a highly respected scientist who has been compiling lots of information about global warming on his blog.
Al Gore: "Joe Romm is one of the most important and influential voices fighting for an end to the climate crisis. His blog, Climate Progress, is a must read."
Paul Krugman: "I trust Joe Romm on climate"

Unfortunately, his blog was recently moved to thinkprogress and there have been some glitches making it less usable, but it still has a lot of good information.
Here are a few entries from his blog about this subject:

- Royal Society Stunner: “Observations suggest that the ongoing rise in global average temperatures may already be eliciting a hazardous response from the geosphere.”

- Was the 2010 Haiti Earthquake triggered by deforestation and the 2008 hurricanes?

- Global Warming, Tsunamis, and Michael Crichton’s Big Blunder

Also be sure to read this: The full global warming solution: How the world can stabilize at 350 to 450 ppm

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. Here ...
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. "could", "might", "may"
- McGuire's speculations of increased geological activity have not yet been published in a journal.

- Burgmann isn't too worried about sea level rise causing more earthquakes or volcanic eruptions though, noting that catastrophic rates of sea level rise in the future are uncertain and that the current rate of rise—about 0.12 inches per year (3 millimeters per year)—isn't enough to destabilize the crust.

- "It would take a long time to add up to a significant amount," Burgmann said—so while it's an area of research to keep an eye on, it's unlikely to have any disastrous consequences, at least for now
.

What truly threatens life as we know it, is a rapid and radical change to the earth's climate. A wholesale change to the atmosphere's dynamic and chemistry is frightening enough without meaningless speculations. It has the potential to bring about the extinction of most of the species on this planet -- including our own -- in a relatively short period of time.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Really ... ?? Can you prove the sun will come up tomorrow -- ?
Edited on Fri Jun-10-11 10:27 PM by defendandprotect
As we saw from the article the other day re Australia, scientists trying to

address Global Warming there are being threatened as to their very lives.

No reason not to think the same isn't happening all over the world --

and not only on Global Warming but on every other issue -- from evolution to

Creationism!


I'd also suggest that you hit the library if you're truly interested --

The Heat is On! by Ross Gelbspan is a good place to start.



And, the 1992 Scientists Warning to Humanity is another great place to start --

though you also have to understand that our scientists have constantly been

"shocked" at the increasing speed of the glacier melts.

http://www.ucsusa.org/about/1992-world-scientists.html


I'd also mention that there was an effort to shut down the nuclear reactors at

Fukushima based on their age and increasing seismic activity -- that was more

than 5 years ago. Imagine that they would have avoided this catastrophe had

they gone ahead -- evidently the US came carrying a big political stick favoring

the nuke industry and the conversaiton was over.


We need to be shutting down all of these reactors -- not only in earth-quake prone

Japan but the two which every US state has -- one recently threatened by flooding

along the Mississippi!



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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Thanks for the suggestion.
:hi:
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. And,
at the rate we're going, OUR extinction would be no great loss...
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Whitey Joe Young Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-11 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
80. Backup Generators should have been up country...
... but then TEPCO would have had to pay for some transmission lines, some nice, robust ones that could withstand earthquake and tsunami. Much too expensive. So, instead, put the damn things right next to the reactors.

Capitalism at its most evil. Thinking about a few yen as more important than avoiding a nuclear catastrophe and the deaths of many thousands.
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oldbanjo Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. There are areas in Russia where it is unsafe to have babies,
due to the amount of radiation. This could happen to the Island of Japan. The US has several Power Plants that should be closed today. One is near New York city and would require evacuating 50 million people to clear a 50 mile safety zone. Two more are in California. All are on earthquake faults.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. Radiation as of 1996:


It's abated enough now that they're planning on opening the area to tourism.

http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/ap/eu_ukraine_chernobyl_tourism
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. "A portion of Japan will become uninhabitable for centuries"
That's a pretty bold "will be", considering they are saying the fuel has melted through the reactor pressure vessel, not the containment.

They acknowledged some time ago the RPV's had at least some sort of hole, since the water was pouring out somewhere. Now they have verified the RPV is likely completely breached and the fuel is sitting in the containment.


I agree, the first hour after the quake was critical, and the opportunity missed. But since there are credible claims the cooling system was damaged by the quake before the tsunami even arrived, the liklihood of being able to do much at all even if there was power, is small. That is a design shortcoming that needs to be answered for, building a reactor in that place and rating it only for a 6.4 or whatever ridiculously low strength earthquake it was designed for.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I think you're leaving something out....
...Which is that the authorities in charge likely knew precisely what was happening, when it was happening, and rather than disclose that they chose to lie about it for weeks.

So if they're saying now that the pressure vessel has melted through, the smart play would be to assume that the melt-through continued, sea water was continuously dumped into the containment rooms until it had to be pumped out, the fisheries are poisoned, and the irradiated dissolved solids in the sea water are working their way up the food chain and into the groundwater... and that they'll lie about that for as long as they can, too.

But they won't be able to lie about it forever, because the Japanese people rely upon those fisheries for a huge percentage of their diet--and a huge percentage of their income, jobs, and entertainment as well, which further suggests that continuing to lie for as long as possible will be the route they choose to take. Making the finite chance that millions will die something considerably more than improbable. Maybe they'll only lie until everyone gets just a little bit of cancer.
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StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. PLUS irradiated fish NOT being monitored aligns with everything we've been
thru since at least 2001...........what happens when a large irradiated TUNA sets off alarms & people think it's a dirty bomb? http://www.fairewinds.com/

LOTS of videos at the link
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. We've hucked so much radioactive material into our oceans, it would boggle the mind.
Fukushima's proximity to the japanese coastline is the only standout factor. At least 8 operating naval reactors have been lost at sea by various countries. Hundreds of warheads. Plutonium armed torpedoes, all lost to crushing depths. To say nothing of untold numbers of 55 gallon steel drums full of who knows what, dumped who knows where, by who knows how many nations.

Due to the damage to the plant, I think it is reasonable that the authorities and operators in charge, did not know the full extent of the damage until very recently. However, I think they should have been more forthcoming about their fears, because all indicators up to this point keep pointing toward worst case scenario, and that was not conveyed to the public. Only verified, substantiated statements. Which amounts to under-selling the nature of the damage.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. This has to be taken over by government -- but let's face it -- neither government ...
nor a private for profit corporation can actually be responsibile or accountable

for such a disaster -- !

We all know this, yet for a half century and more we've permitted them to spread

nuclear reactors everywhere -- two in every state in US --

How ironic that US began the nuclear age by bombing Japan and somehow Japan --

earth-quake prone Japan -- was convinced to base all their energy needs on nuclear

power????

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #34
53. Yes. We have to close our nuclear plants and find alternative energy
that works. There is no other choice.

It may mean that we have to change our energy-use patterns right down to stopping the use of little, very common things like electric toothbrushes and can openers to slightly bigger things like closing office buildings when it is dark out, ending all night TV (encourages people to stay up late), air conditioning and many other things that we enjoy and take for granted.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Agree ....
Edited on Thu Jun-09-11 02:31 AM by defendandprotect
but I also agree with the presumptions by many that very likely there has been immense

suppression of information re alternative energy --

we are just not this stupid that we would elect to use nuclear reactors to boil water

for steam which is basically what we are doing with these reactors!

In fact, it looks like worldwide now we are having suppression of scientists re

Global Warming info --


We are now in a period where we are at the end of the 50 year delay in our feeling

the effects of our activites -- though we are only feeling effects of what we did

up to about 1960. This is what gave the opportunity and the cover for the oil industry

to be able to lie to the public so successfully about GW.


The effects now will continue to intensify --

Here in NJ we're expecting 100 degrees tomorrow --

We're at the least 25 degrees above normal -- possibily more.




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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #55
71. We need to stop feeding the media beast our silver dollars and loose
change. I dropped my cable subscription long ago.
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #53
72. Just sprinkle some magic dirty coal dust, click your heels together and say "hydraulic fracturing."
Edited on Thu Jun-09-11 04:17 PM by BrightKnight
Accelerated global warming will be fun.
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Taft_Bathtub Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. The area got hit by an earthquake and a tsunami
I think you forget that the entire countryside was completely destroyed and that it's not like you can just drive a bunch of generators over to Fukushima and install them in 20 minutes.

And no a portion of Japan won't be uninhabitable for centuries, there are people living around Chernobyl.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. They have played with this fire for 60 years...
and now it will burn us all for generations. I hope the money the "Experts" made was worth it.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I hope they and theirs go first.
Not a kind thought, but they will have every medical advantage.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
57. They destroy the health and well being of all of us on this planet for dollar bills ... !!
Edited on Thu Jun-09-11 02:38 AM by defendandprotect
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LittleGirl Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. means that that area should be secured
and left to recover for the next 3-500 years, don't you think? And if they have another earthquake, then what? I don't think governments and companies can learn much more about this and kudos to Germany to shut down their reactors and plan to remove all of them from service in the next few years.

so sad for the Japanese.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. even if they entomb all 6 reactors, it will ALWAYS be a HUGE problem because of FUTURE EARTHQUAKES
Edited on Wed Jun-08-11 06:29 AM by ElsewheresDaughter
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JJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
6. Humans very stupid
When one factors true cost, petro, coal, nuclear, and wars are too expensive.

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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Humans very stupid....
or at times too damn smart for our own good.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Intelligence does not breed wisdom. nt
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Who injected Porter Goss into this discussion?
However, intelligence does not breed wisdom ESPECIALLY when politics changes the content of the intelligence.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
64. If it's online, Porter Goss is in every discussion.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
31. "If you educate a fool what you end up with is an educated fool" --
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
30. Capitalism is suicidal in its exploitation of nature ---
Here's what a woman from the Bikini Islands said as we set out

to nuke her homeland with atomic weapons in tests --


"Americans are really smart about really stupid things"



And how stupid does trying to collect dollar bills make you?

As the Native American tried to make clear to us -- "You can't plant them" --

"You can't eat them" -- "you can't see a sunset in them" --


"We have to stop judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill"

Betty Friedan
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Nukes are Unsafe Regardlesss of the Economic System
Capitalism had nothing to do with Chernobyl.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. That's like saying that GE had nothing to do with Fukushima ... or that
the oil industry and every other corporation had nothing to do with Global

Warming!


Nuclear energy -- and atomic weapons - are unsafe for everyone all the time --

The presumption is that the MIC needed to find a "peaceful" use for atomic power

and the best they could do was nuclear reactors --


However, it was a ruse to keep Americans from understanding the truth of what had

been put in play -- death, basically -- and to save atomic weaponry/MIC from the

"Ban the Bomb'ers" --


How more ironic could it be that the very nation we NUKED as we introduced the

atomic era to the world would move on to use nuclear reactors for 100% of their energy --

especially on their earthquake prone island?


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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. ?
I said:
Capitalism had nothing to do with Chernobyl


You said:
That's like saying that GE had nothing to do with Fukushima ... or that
the oil industry and every other corporation had nothing to do with Global Warming!

But Chernobyl was in the Communist Soviet Union. Did you misread my post?

Nuclear energy -- and atomic weapons - are unsafe for everyone all the time --

On that we are in full agreement.

The presumption is that the MIC needed to find a "peaceful" use for atomic power
and the best they could do was nuclear reactors --


However, it was a ruse to keep Americans from understanding the truth of what had
been put in play -- death, basically -- and to save atomic weaponry/MIC from the
"Ban the Bomb'ers" --

None of which was a consideration in the Soviet Union. I think Stalin was still in power then.
Public opinion was not something they concerned themselves with very much.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. When I say that capitalism is suicidal in its exploitations of nature --
I'm speaking from the highest perspective -- not specifically of Chernobyl --

However, I think I have heard that US companies supplied some part of the

reactors at Chernobyl --

I'll will try to check that --


However, while capitalists may have pounded down our natural resources and nature

for profit -- certainly totalitarian communism did the same for the purpose of their

own interests.


There's an old Russian joke --

Question: What's the difference between capitalism and communism?

Answer: Under capitalism man exploits man --

Under communism it is just the reverse --



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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. The Purported Economic System by Which an Oligarchy Rules Makes Liittle Difference
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. If there was a better system for stealing from the people, the oligarchy would be using it --!!
Edited on Thu Jun-09-11 02:45 AM by defendandprotect

Capitalism is intended to move the wealth and natural resources of a nation

from the many to the few -- and it does that very effectively --

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime --





Patriarchy -- and its underpinning =

Organized patriarchal religion -- and its economic invention =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity


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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. You're overlooking the fact that the most important thing in the world is to make rich people richer
That's all that matters in the world. Truly. Our whole lives revolve around making rich people richer.
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neoralme Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. And the near-rich are now in panic mode that they won't get theirs. It's
Edited on Wed Jun-08-11 09:42 AM by neoralme
breeding on itself. If a default comes in August, the US will not recover beyond a former shadow of itself.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. That is the Prime Directive, and no one is allowed to violate it.
Without meeting their doom that is.
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nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
29. Capitalism in overdrive
There is money to be made. Fuck everybody and everything else.

It's as if they have an escape planet all picked out.
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StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
46. that's what I've been thinking, or else they are criminally insane, take your pick
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
7. I hope it means we will follow Germany's example and shut down our nukes too.
Sigh...
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plumbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Yes, the only rational response.
nt
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neoralme Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Republicans won't do that. Nor centrist Democrats.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
52. We have two corporate parties --
Edited on Thu Jun-09-11 02:13 AM by defendandprotect
and a Congress full of corporate representatives --

44% of the Congress are millionaires and multi-millionaires and evidently

we're still expecting them to vote in the best interests of the public?



We have had a DLC funded by the Koch Bros. harbored within the Democratic Party

for the last two decades -- and the major topic of conversation on DU the last

week has been Weiner's Weiner!


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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Overseas.
I agree and honestly do not understand how ANYONE, even the greedy profiteers, can say otherwise.

We are speaking of a, "continuing for centuries", inevitable, scenario. These people, surely, have taken the few, relatively *small, disasters and multiplied them by the number of reactors in the world. It is inescapable. Our world would be destroyed if many "accidents" occurred, even over the span of decades.


* small compared to the many possibilities


SAVE MANKIND. STOP ANYTHING NUCLEAR
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
63. I agree.
Fukushima could have provided a great reason to close nuclear power and amp up renewable energy and conservation efforts.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
32. Agree -- but there was activity 5 years or so to shut down Fukushjima reactors ....
Edited on Wed Jun-08-11 11:52 AM by defendandprotect
the Mayor at the time was moving in that direction based on the age of

the reactors and also because scientists were reporting increasing seismic

activity --

Evidently US intervened and the Mayor was gone -- and the reactors stayed!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. Evidently it may take as long as one year to shut down any of these reactors in Japan?
Understand it would take 6 months to properly shut down our own reactors in

US --

and think we should get started on doing that now --


Two things the public has to come to undertand --

Capitalism's exploitation of nature has given us Global Warming --

There was a 50 year delay in our feeling the effects of it which provided time

for the oil industry to lie to the public about it --

Essentially now we are only feeling the effects of our activity up to about 1960!


Global Warming is about HEAT in the atmosphere which will bring increasing

droughts/floods, storms, hurricanes, cyclones, tornados -- but also earthquakes.

Earthquakes also generate volcanic activity.


Nuclear reactors need water -- we have two built on Lake Erie -- a source of drinking water!


Evidently there is one along the Mississippi River which may be a problem for US at this

time?



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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
73. Yay, Germany doubles it's carbon footprint!
The "Green" Party wants Power.
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neoralme Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. May have? Why are they still hedging? Not that it makes any
difference. Who would believe anything these people say?
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nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. They're still relying on the fact that most people won't bother to look any further
Than the headline. Thus the headline becomes reality.

They said there may have been a meltdown when it was abundantly clear there were multiple meltdowns at Fukushima.

Now there may have been a melt through?

I don't believe anything these people say.
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neoralme Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. The horror in this is that there may be further indications of a
China Syndrome that we are not being told. Are we on the cusp of a slow, painful death aided and abetted by Japan and our own government? How many hot flecks are in our lungs now? I wonder if another planet is filming a science fiction movie and we are the actors?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
16. So does Richie Rich have a hole in his pants now?
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NCcoast Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
18. If China is right next door...
would you call it a Brazil syndrome?
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I would!
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
20. So where are on the nuclear apologists on DU now?
???
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nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. They're busy un-reccing this post
Only 33 recommendations so far? LOLOL

Nuclear death industry apologists hard at work guaranteeing more death.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
40. You're only post #20
Edited on Wed Jun-08-11 09:40 PM by boppers
So far, I haven't seen too much that is new/absurd in this thread to correct, but hey, we've already got people comparing this to Chernobyl (totally different reactor, containment, accident, etc).

edit: typo
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nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #40
61. Chernobyl is the obvious comparison
Just as TMI was for Chernobyl. They have something in common. They are all nuclear accidents. Or, since they're undeniably inevitable, perhaps we should call them nuclear on-purposes.
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beardown Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-11 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
81. They are here
so the extension of your question is "then why aren't they admitting they have been wrong on numerous counts, instead of falling back to second and third lines of pro nuke arguments"?

First, it was it all worked as planned because the plants survived the earthquakes and it was the waves that broke the plants. Huh? That's the same as saying the bullet proof vest worked because the gun didn't kill the guy wearing it, the bullet did.


Then that the radiation on the ground isn't much higher than a plane trip, but ignoring that there is a gigantic difference between getting some radiation zapped through you and getting some radiated particles lodged in your lungs.

Then that we've already dumped lots of crap into the environment so what a few thousand more tons of radioactive water into the ocean.

Then that other plants have containment buildings, oops, sorry, that was the one for Chernobyl. Wrong nuke apologist disaster.

Then that nobody has died yet which is one of my favorites as many of the nukers tout their knowledge of nukes, but somehow seem to have skipped the part about the long term effects of ingesting nuke material. If the wind had been blowing towards Tokyo we could be looking at a disaster that would have topped the chart in human history, provided you count long term deaths as really dead people.

The simple bottom line is that nuke power if done right is far too expensive when you calculate in the cost of truly safe production. Especially, when I'd think that we could fill much if not all of the gap of current and future nuke plants by investing in other energy production technologies and energy saving technologies.
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bongbong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
25. The Fermi Paradox
Since Fukushima I have thought about it frequently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

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Whitey Joe Young Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-11 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
79. It would explain a lot... this Fukushima thing, huh?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
44. Let's also remember ... this is about using nuclear reactors to boil water to make steam ....!!
as Einstein pointed out for us !!

How nuts are we?

How desperately did our MIC need a ruse like this to protect their atomic era

from the "Ban the Bomb" 'ers --- ????

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #44
65. Exactly.
We've been boiling water for thousands of years without nuclear power, successfully.

If GE should ever decide to pay its taxes, we can learn how to do so, again, someday. Maybe.

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blackdem76 Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
59. Nuclear fuel has melted through base of Fukushima plant
Source: Telegraph

The nuclear fuel in three of the reactors at the Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear plant has melted through the base of the pressure vessels and is pooling in the outer containment vessels, according to a report by the Japanese government.

The findings of the report, which has been given to the International Atomic Energy Agency, were revealed by the Yomiuri newspaper, which described a "melt-through" as being "far worse than a core meltdown" and "the worst possibility in a nuclear accident."



Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8565020/Nuclear-fuel-has-melted-through-base-of-Fukushima-plant.html
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. kr
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nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
62. The true cost of nuclear power
"The experts have also yet to come up with a plan for decommissioning the ruined plant. Studies have estimated that the cost of the accident at Fukushima may rise as high as $250 billion over the next 10 years."
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. + 1,000
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
67. Japan Nuclear Watchdog: Fuel Has Possibly Melted Through Daiichi 1’s Pressure Vessel
Source: POWER Magazine; Business and Technology for the Global Generation Industry, Trade Magazine

June 8, 2011

Japan Nuclear Watchdog: Fuel Has Possibly Melted Through Daiichi 1’s Pressure Vessel
POWERnews

A day after Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) doubled estimates of the total amount of radiation released into the atmosphere after an earthquake and tsunami ravaged Tokyo Electric Power Co.’s (TEPCO’s) Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, the government nuclear watchdog released a 750-page report in which it admits, for the first time, that nuclear fuel may have possibly melted through reactor pressure vessels and accumulated at the bottom of outer containment vessels. The new report submitted to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Ministerial Conference on Nuclear Safety outlines the status of the three most-afflicted reactors at Daiichi and the Japanese government’s efforts to quell the crisis.

Japanese newspaper The Yomiuri Shimbun on Tuesday pointed out that the report makes the first official recognition that a “melt-through” has occurred, saying that the possibility of a nuclear fuel leak from the reactor pressure vessel (RPV) into containment vessels is “far worse than a core meltdown and is the worst possibility in a nuclear accident.” The report also acknowledges issues with the government’s administration of nuclear safety regulations, saying it was not clear who was in charge of keeping citizens safe in the event of a nuclear accident. It proposes making NISA a separate entity from the Economy Trade and Industry Ministry and urges reform of the Nuclear Safety Commission. NISA said on Monday that it estimates the total amount of radiation released into the atmosphere in the first week of the crisis was 770,000 terabecquerels. That compares with NISA's previous estimate, released April 12, of 370,000 terabecquerels for the first month of the crisis. However, the new figure was still only about 10% of the radiation released from the 1986 Chernobyl disaster, NISA said.

<SNIP>
Damage Worse Than Thought

NISA admitted that, as constant water injection to each reactor pressure vessel was impossible, “nuclear fuels in each reactor core were not covered by water but were exposed, and led to a core melt. A part of the melted fuel stayed at the bottom of the RPV,” it said. At Unit 1, “there is a possibility that the bottom of the RPV is damaged as part of the melted fuel dropped and accumulated on the dry well floor (lower pedestal) of the ,” the report says. TEPCO concluded from a provisional analysis dated May 15 that, after recalibrating water gauges at Unit 1 and realizing that water levels may have been lower than indicated, nuclear fuel pellets had melted, “falling to the bottom of the reactor pressure vessel at a relatively early stage after the tsunami reached the station." Melting started from the central part of the core, and 16 hours after the scram (around March 12, at 6:50 a.m. JST), "most of the core fell down to the RPV bottom," TEPCO says.

However, it added, because Unit 1 “has been cooled stably by water injection, we believe that there would not be likely the further situation transition, e.g. to the situation where we need to release a large amount of radioactive materials.” It adds in the analysis that "Although RPV is damaged in this provisional analysis, the actual damage of RPV is considered to be limited according to the temperatures presently measured around the RPV."


Sources: POWERnews, NISA, The Yomiuri Shimbun, TEPCO




Read more: http://www.powermag.com/POWERnews/3767.html?hq_e=el&hq_m=2217483&hq_l=4&hq_v=5a602a5488



Actually the recent reports seem to indicate they are in a China Syndrome event with Unit 1 as the water is boiling at levels floors below the reactor vessel.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
74. Wow, these news organizations need to get their shit together!
We face a global crisis and the reporting is all over the place!
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Whitey Joe Young Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-11 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
78. Murderous Corporations
Time and again, we are given all the indications that private, for-profit enterprises cannot be trusted with the public's safety. TransOcean (Deepwater Horizon rig explosion), PG&E (Hinckley CA ground water contamination, "Erin Brockovich"), and now TEPco...

How can we undertake these inherently dangerous operations without having independent, competent, and empowered oversight by government regulators? It's just another chapter in the sad tale of corporate greed, going back to the Gilded Age and the excesses of the Industrial Revolution, and going right through to the present day.

With something this dangerous, I fear there is *no* *effective* *means* of providing the kind of oversight warranted by the level of risk. The NRC and its ilk is a revolving-door agency, with "experts" from industry coming to work in a cushy government agency for a few years, then retire, but actually going right back to the industry that bred them. After all, how do you become an expert in running a nuclear reactor, without working for someone who owns one? And with that specialized knowledge, where does your career lead you? I think you get the picture.

Lord help us, we are so screwed.
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