London riots: 'People are fighting back. It's their neighbourhoods at stake'

[Turborama]

Source: The Guardian

Peter Beaumont, Jasmine Coleman and Sandra Laville | Wednesday August 10 2011

=snip=

Tuesday night there were further reports of communities taking steps to defend themselves. Dozens of men were guarding the main Sikh temple in Southall, west London.

Around 200 people were walking around the centre of Eltham, south-east London, following rumours that the area was going to be the latest place to be hit by disturbances. The group, predominantly men, had been congregating in pubs since the rumours began to circulate in mid-afternoon. "This is a white working-class area and we are here to protect our community," said one man. In Enfield, north London, about 70 men were seen chasing a group of youths.

Further anecdotal evidence also suggested that in other cities hit by Monday night's violence, communities were also remaining vigilant. On Amazon sales of baseball bats and truncheons rocketed overnight. Sales of one aluminium bat increased 65-fold in a day, albeit from low initial sales, while a truncheon jumped from a sales rank of 5,973 to 136.

Deputy assistant commissioner Stephen Kavanagh had already said it was not baton rounds or water cannon that would defeat the rioters – it was communities themselves. "We are already seeing a community kickback. People are angry. This is their neighbourhoods that are at stake," he said.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-fighting-neighbourhoods

[truthisfreedom]

1. I adore the British.

Oh, wait, I'm half British. But seriously, the wording is always magnificent... there's no scolding involved, just a direct comment... "It's not baton rounds or water cannon that would defeat the rioters..."

[dipsydoodle]

2. The courts are keeping those arrested off the streets too

0942:

Highbury magistrates' court in north London has been sitting with two district judges through the night since 17:00 BST yesterday, and appearances are continuing today. Most people are charged with public disorder or violent disorder and some for burglary relating to looting. The majority have been remanded in custody.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

They won't have banked on not getting bail. The fact they've been remanded in custody indicates their trials have been moved over to Wood Green Crown Court. Magistrates can only hand out 6 month sentences to first time offenders for burglary : The Crown Courts can hand out up to 10 years.

In the instance quoted above , the Sikhs , nobody with any sense would want to upset either that lot or the Hindus with their temple over in NW10. Years ago the biggest gang fights here were between those two groups : at least 200 strong each side at pre-arranged bundles.

The "hoodies" tried to hit Watford last night but chose a dumb place to meet up - the police moved them on.

[joshcryer]

17. You can be held 28 days in the UK without being charged.

It's scary!



Amazing how the US is one of the top states on this issue.

[dipsydoodle]

21. The ones at the Magistrates

have already been charged : that's why they were there. There's about 800 arrests so far and they're all being fast tracked. Highgate Magistrates ran right through to 5.30am this morning which is unheard of prior to this. They then reopened about 4 hours later ready for the next batch first of whom was a 31 year female teacher.

What you refer to above is generally related to terror based charges. I wouldn't class any of these hooligans as terrorists.

[flamingdem]

51. Are you in London Dipsey? I can't believe it's already 800 people

:yoiks:

[No Elephants]

25. Only two days in the USA?

Forever in Gitmo, Bagram or any of our lovely extraordinary rendition destinations.

At least we're consistent. We offshore even our unconstitutional imprisonment and torture work.

I'm so ashamed.

[JDPriestly]

3. Getting the police to support these community leaders is essential.

[tama]

85. You are missing the point

It's not about police or community *leaders*.

It's about communities *our*selves, period. Building sense of local communities, people learning to trust each other and take care of each other.

Sometimes it takes an outburst of collective anger to learn and remember that anger and violence is not the solution, to remember what we DON'T want. To remember how trust and co-operation is and works.

[dipsydoodle]

4. Just seen the Eltham clip on BBC

The police were needing to protect possible looters, coming in by bus , from the locals. :rofl:

[Turborama]

6. I saw that. The locals outside the bus wanted a piece of them.

Looked like the police were telling the bus passengers to "stay on the bus and piss off".

Whatever it was they were actually saying, it was in a very stern manner.

[dipsydoodle]

7. Quite amazing

It not even that Eltham have got a decent football team : they only play in the Sunday league. :)

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

18. I know it's kinda ironic, but it's serious, this is race war shit here.

:cry:

[dipsydoodle]

19. I've seen no signs of that Josh

and as you know I'm here.

[No Elephants]

27. Respectfully, the bit about a white community in this OP alone sounds like a racial element.

And I have read other things that suggest a racial element, all of them originating in the UK.

ETA: And the OP article of the thread you posted elsewhere in LBN showed a color photo of a black man named Bailey being arrested and charged with burgulary, with the statement that his case was typical. (Not sure about UK custom, but US media long ago learned to use photos, rather than describing the race of an alleged criminal, once Americans woke up to the fact that white criminals were never described as "white.") Could be a subtle racial message, but I would not rest on that alone. As I've said, I've seen racial elements in other stories.

Okay this is npr, not a UK source, but...

"The blue touchpaper that lit the conflagration was the killing of Mark Duggan, a 29-year-old black father of four, by armed police in Tottenham, one of London's poorest boroughs, as he rode in a minicab; he had a handgun but there's been no claim that he made a move to fire it. A small crowd of local residents gathered at the police station to demand explanations; though the protesters were peaceful, the police were not forthcoming. By nightfall, against the wishes of Duggan's relatives, rioting had broken out in Tottenham and elsewhere. Police cars and a double decker bus were set on fire and shop windows were smashed, mostly by teenage boys.

What began as an outburst of anger against police violence soon morphed into an orgy of nocturnal "shopping" as kids broke into sports and electronics shops, cell phone stores and supermarkets. A brave woman in Hackney gave a streetcorner sermon amid heaps of litter, excoriating the rioters for turning grief to greed: "This is about a f——— man who got shot in Tottenham. This isn't about having fun on a riot and busting up the place. Get real, black people, get real. If we're fighting for a cause let's fight for a f——— cause." But in the deprived neighborhoods of Britain's crumbling cities, consumerism is a more accessible dream than commitment or community.{no elephants editorial comment on this sentence: unwarranted slant from npr!}

And so it has gone on, night after night since then, frightening, unpredictable and uncontainable. The police are overwhelmed; the politicians nervously continue to plough their furrows. "Sheer criminality," says Home Secretary Teresa May, as if any attempt to understand what's at the root of all this rage would imply condoning it. Labour politicians flirt with the temptation to blame government spending cuts, as if such fury could build up in a matter of mere months. Of course the cuts don't help: they are the final straw, the irrefutable evidence that the poor are now dispensable, outside society. Nor does the larger sense that nobody's in charge, that the economy's in freefall, that bankers have been looting the public purse for years, and that our leaders have no idea what to do about any of it. There is a doomsday feeling on the streets of London: time to grab what you can, burn it down and live for now, because who knows what's coming for us all tomorrow.

But it's taken years to brew the toxic mix of hopelessness, frustration and disenfranchisement, envy, anger and boredom, greed and selfishness, humiliation and recklessness that's erupted in Britain this week—years in which the gap between rich and poor grew wider, racism was allowed to fester, consumerism and celebrity culture replaced community. While we in the middle classes got on with our oh-so-busy lives, averting our eyes from the poverty just a few blocks away, sending our kids to schools where there are other "motivated parents," talking politics, we allowed the rifts in our own neighborhoods to deepen until they became almost unbridgeable."

Sounds like a mix of poverty and racism. And, where there is racism, poverty impacts minorities more.

Does not sound a lot different from race riots in the U.S. in the 1960s or those in the UK arouond 1980.

[indurancevile]

34. most of the arrests have been white.

[No Elephants]

37. I will take your word for that, but that does not prove race played no part in these riots.

[indurancevile]

33. look at the people in the streets & the arrests. mostly white. i wonder why you say that.

[BooScout]

84. No actually it's not....

It is a war against people who thieve, loot, rob and steal......they are all races and all colours. Stop trying to make it about something it's not just to try and put it in a tidy little box that you can grasp.

[Ex Lurker]

5. The Londoners organizing to defend themselves

clearly haven't read the minority of DU posters claiming the rioters are somehow justified.

[dipsydoodle]

8. Yes - odd that

:rofl:

The looters do however have support elsewhere :

1055: BBC Monitoring

Libyan foreign ministry spokesman Khalid Ka'im has called on world governments to take action over the unrest in the UK. David Cameron has lost legitimacy and "must go", Libya's official news agency Jana reports. Libya "demands that the international community not stand with arms folded in the face of this gross aggression against the rights of the British people, who are demanding its right to rule its country", the report said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

[go west young man]

20. Unbelievable that.

I was posting last night trying to give some solid info on what these yobs are really like and I can't believe how many people
here at DU are actually on the side of these thugs. Critical thinking seems to have gone right out the window with some posters.
I recommend the film "Harry Brown" starring Michael Cain to fully understand British yobs. That is sadly reality in the UK these days.

[No Elephants]

29. DUers have been condoning violence?

[PavePusher]

46. I am shocked, shocked to find out....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

[parkia00]

41. There are always some twats!

Been here for years and there is constantly a small majority of teabagger like behavior from some DU members. Logic and commonsense are of little interest. All that is important is to support "their side" no matter what.

[indurancevile]

66. Yes, "Londoners" like the fascist English Defense League.

London riots: far-right political party 'protect' Eltham residents

The English Defence League (EDL) gathered in Eltham, south-east London, on Tuesday evening with around 200 residents from the area.

As the number of people swelled, the mood became increasingly violent as suspected looters were chased and set upon.

In one incident, a mob attacked a bus passing through the high street after black youths, seated on the upper deck, gestured through the window. Police were quick to respond, using dog-handlers to separate the two groups.

Jack England, EDL's south-east regional organiser, claimed that the people on the streets were "patriots" and not vigilantes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692872/London-riots-far-right-political-party-protect-Eltham-residents.html



That's the background of this quote from the OP:

Around 200 people were walking around the centre of Eltham, south-east London, following rumours that the area was going to be the latest place to be hit by disturbances. The group, predominantly men, had been congregating in pubs since the rumours began to circulate in mid-afternoon. "This is a white working-class area and we are here to protect our community," said one man. In Enfield, north London, about 70 men were seen chasing a group of youths.


It ain't all "mom & pop defending themselves" out there.

[dipsydoodle]

9. YouGov poll

1102:

Nine out of 10 British adults say police should be able to be use water cannon on rioters and one third support use of live ammunition, according to a YouGov poll of 2,534 British adults for the Sun.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

I don't agree with live rounds. Could cause shoot outs in certain parts of London.

[MrDiaz]

10. i thought guns were illegal

in London/ Why would there be any shootouts?

[dipsydoodle]

11. They are illegal in UK

including being in possession of.

Don't change the fact some have got them including Mark Duggan who was carrying one.

[MrDiaz]

12. So you mean

That even though the guns there are illegal, the criminals still have them? I think i'm in a paradox here man. All the anti-gun nuts, try to make it seem taht if guns were illegal there wouldn't be a chance of violence.

[dipsydoodle]

14. Does however severely decrease the number in circulation

There's no paradox : being in possession Class A drugs is illegal but they seems to be about.

[No Elephants]

30. BS is bad enough, but bs that is both dead tired and lame should really be saved for another board.

No laws prevent all crime, but they do deter many. Why do they deter? Because they give law enforcement power to investigate, arrest and punish violators.


So, we have laws against murder, yet those laws do not prevent all murders. ted. Under your "reasoning," only murder nuts favor laws banning murder.

Do laws against murder enable law enforcement to investigate, arrest and punish murderers or those who conspire to murder or who aid and abet murderers? Yes.

Does the possiblity of facing dealth penalty or life in prison stop people from indulging their temper tantrums or jealousy or whatever by killing every object of their wrath or jealousy? No doubt. Does it even deter some criminals from killing all possible witnesses to say, a robbery? No doubt.

Does it deter all of them? No.

Is that a valid reason to abolish laws against murder?

Do reasonable laws about driving tests and licenses and vehicle inspection and wearing glasses while driving if you need them prevent all accidents involving vehicles? No. Should they be abolished?

[left on green only]

67. Thank You For Being Such A Patient And Tollerant Contributor To

this board.

[parkia00]

40. WTF!

Why are you so trying to push this thread about the UK riots into a pro gun anti gun mud fest? Unlicensed guns are illegal in the UK but guns do get in. Anyone wanting to own an unlicensed gun will have to pay through their nose for it from the smugglers. Guns and bullets are hard to get. But if there is a will there is a way. That's why gun violence in the UK is much lower than the US but it does happen. Would a criminal shoot off rounds from his illegal gun as often if he know it was going to cost him a tenner a pop?

[Nihil]

44. Thank you.

> Why are you so trying to push this thread about the UK riots into
> a pro gun anti gun mud fest?

Maybe they wanted to get the thread dumped in the dungeon?


> Anyone wanting to own an unlicensed gun will have to pay through
> their nose for it from the smugglers.

FYI, the other main way to get an illegal gun in the UK is to get
a "safe gun" (e.g., a replica, a starting pistol or any other type
that's designed to fire blanks) and re-machine the "safety mechanism"
so that it will take live ammo again.

That was exactly the type being carried - apparently loaded - by the
gang leader shot by the police:

>> Further tests on the weapon, which had been converted from a blank-firing
>> pistol to one that shoots live rounds, are being carried out to establish this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

[PavePusher]

47. Yes, that seems to be working out well for the criminals...

but not so much for the folks who's homes and businesses are being looted and burned.

Can't remember the last time there were riots like this in Arizona....

[hack89]

28. Because criminals ignore gun laws? nt

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

16. And the riots are tetering on a race war, now. Fun times.

[indurancevile]

35. boy, you're really pushing that line. interesting.

[No Elephants]

22. ""This is a white working-class area and we are here to protect our community," said one man."

And therein lies a tale.

[dipsydoodle]

23. Which community was that ?

Don't sound like much of a community to me.

[indurancevile]

64. Eltham. Here's the rest of that story: Nazis.

London riots: far-right political party 'protect' Eltham residents

A far-right wing political party have claimed that they took to the streets of Eltham to "guide" the residents because the police were "unable to control the streets."

The English Defence League (EDL) gathered in Eltham, south-east London, on Tuesday evening with around 200 residents from the area.

As the number of people swelled, the mood became increasingly violent as suspected looters were chased and set upon. In one incident, a mob attacked a bus passing through the high street after black youths, seated on the upper deck, gestured through the window. Police were quick to respond, using dog-handlers to separate the two groups.

Jack England, EDL's south-east regional organiser, claimed that the people on the streets were "patriots" and not vigilantes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692872/London-riots-far-right-political-party-protect-Eltham-residents.html

[dipsydoodle]

70. You may find they were just claiming that to getting in on the act

and it was in fact Millwall FC supporters. Pro hooligans they might be but as a general rule they keep it between themselves and other clubs without affecting the public as such. They do not wear hoods and may regard those that do at present as "the enemy"

See here : http://searchtopics.independent.ie/article/0glc08q2jY1Rt?q=London

To save you bother of figuring some the names used : they're all accepted nicknames for London clubs.

Yid Army are Tottenham supporters
Gooners are Arsenal supporters
Headhunters are Chelsea supporters
West Ham is West ham.........ICF / Inter City Firm became defunct years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_City_Firm

Use of all those names further helps to confirm it wasn't really EDL as such.

btw - it is a bit unusual for the "firms" to team up in this way which is what is suggested in the article above. The way they dress has never really changed much over the years : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APb7TeeN8Tg

[indurancevile]

71. The English Defense League isn't a football club.

[dipsydoodle]

72. Don't be ridiculous - I didn't say it was.

I said they were getting in on the act. Like I said - they were Millwall FC supporters. Its bad reporting by The Telegraph.

[indurancevile]

73. i don't see your point, then. As the EDL's own website talks about how it's

organized to defend communities from the rioters, i don't think you have one.

[dipsydoodle]

76. They are capitalising on a situation

and sadly you appear to be falling for it.

[indurancevile]

82. of course they're capitalizing on a situation. that's my point. i'm

not "falling" for anything. but a lot of people appear to be falling for the narrative being put out by the media: the rioters are scum & good (native) citizens are defending their property.

that's why the writer didn't make it clear who exactly they were quoting in that "white citizens" remark in the op.

[robcon]

24. It's hooligans, not social grievances, driving the riots.

n/t

[chrisa]

26. Yep. It's the point people are trying to make to the defenders.

These aren't protesters, or people that even care about politics. They're teenage to college-aged trouble makers who are thriving off of the anarchy.

[Terry in Austin]

60. Well, glad that's settled!

Didn't want to have any social grievances raising their heads, did we?

Those darned hooligans, anyway!

[Bragi]

31. The hate-on here for marginalized youth is disturbing

I find the embracing of the meme that the riots are "pure criminality" with no social and political context, or meaning, to be quite sad.

Truth is, these riots are really just a way for marginalized young people who society has written off to say "Fuck You".

As one bright London blogger put it: "Riots are about power, and they are about catharsis. They are not about poor parenting, or youth services being cut, or any of the other snap explanations that media pundits have been trotting out: structural inequalities, as a friend of mine remarked today, are not solved by a few pool tables. People riot because it makes them feel powerful, even if only for a night. People riot because they have spent their whole lives being told that they are good for nothing, and they realise that together they can do anything – literally, anything at all. People to whom respect has never been shown riot because they feel they have little reason to show respect themselves, and it spreads like fire on a warm summer night."

http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html

And as Martin Luther King said... (see my sig line below)

[AngryAmish]

36. Does your bright London blogger have any evidence for his claims?

Not breezy punditry. Actual testable facts. He has not shown any. Short of that they are just spouting whatever they feel is the cause. Feelings are not facts.

[Bragi]

38. You want "facts"?

You want facts on the marginalized no-hope youth in UK who have been written off by society?

Okay, here's a start for you:

Social Class, Youth Crime and Justice
http://www.uk.sagepub.com/stout/02-Muncie-YCJ-Ch%2002.pdf

Being tough on the causes of crime: Tackling family breakdown to prevent youth crime
http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/client/downloads/causes_of_crime.pdf

The Cost of Exclusion: Counting the cost of youth disadvantage in the UK
http://www.princes-trust.org.uk/PDF/Princes%20Trust%20Research%20Cost%20of%20Exclusion%20apr07.pdf

UK ranked low on youth wellbeing
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/8008926.stm

I believe that even a small amount of research will confirm that the UK has serious social problems with marginalized young people that politicians have consistently refused/failed to address.

These are the people who are rioting. They aren't angels and they lack a coherent political agenda.

However, contrary to the "pure criminality" meme being pushed by the media and law and order crowd in the UK, their explosive disposition towards nihilistic violence is neither incomprehensible, or devoid of social or political meaning.

- B

[PavePusher]

49. If the targets were government buildings and offices, then there would be an arguable point.

But instead, the targets are looting and burning of shops and homes.

Fuck. That. Noise.

[Bragi]

54. These youth are not political strategists

They have no strategy, and no political manifesto. They are just a marginalized group that society has consigned to the rubbish bin, and they know it.

This is what happens when you have extreme and unrelenting social and economic equality, and spawn an entire social class with no prospects.

Say hello to America's future.

[AngryAmish]

62. Your argument is that they are mindless automatons?

[tama]

86. Feelings are facts

the only real facts that have political meaning when it comes to so called masses. That's where "leftist" intellectuals often fail, being overly cerebral and "logical" and denying the importance of feelings - the facts on the ground.

Politics is all about feelings. Feelings of injustice, insecurity and fear - that can be easily manipulated into "us against them" warmongering (classical example nazis), but of course also feelings of confidence, trust and love (classical example gandhians).

[Nihil]

42. The lust to defend thieves & vandals around here is disturbing

> Truth is, these riots are really just a way for marginalized young people
> who society has written off to say "Fuck You".

Wrong.

The actual truth is that these "riots" are really just a way for a bunch
of shitheads (including "a man who was about to join the army", "a youth
worker", "a forklift truck driver", "a 31-year old primary school worker")
to get together with their mates using their oh-so-marginalized Blackberries
and mobile phones to break into Currys, H&M, JD Sports, jewellers, computer
shops and "a string of mobile phone shops".

Quote: "Everyone in south link up – bring your bags and trolleys!"

:eyes:


Yes, there are problems in different parts of the country.
No, this round of wanton vandalism, assault, murder and theft is not the
result of it, no matter how much drivel you get from your cute little
wannabe-Tank-Girl blogger.

>> People riot because they have spent their whole lives being told that
>> they are good for nothing

People steal plasma screen TVs, designer trainers, phones, watches
because they *ARE* "good for nothing".

[go west young man]

45. You've got it exactly right.

I'm from Dagenham which is one of the roughest parts of London. I know for a fact that
plenty of young people make the right choice and become good people. Yobos are the
worst of the worst and they come in all colors. This excuse to riot has nothing to do with
race or inequality. It has to do with thugs.

Social inequality is bollocks in regards to these whankers. They choose to be criminals.
Social justice is earned through peaceful protest and good arguments not by stealing, rioting,
smashing, burning, and beating.

[Bragi]

52. Peaceful marches are easily ignored

That's why the dominant classes and their media always encourage people to "do the responsible thing" and go use the "free speech zones" where no-one will ever hear anything you have to say.

[Bragi]

50. The status quo thanks you for your support

Without simplistic law and order-minded people such as yourself, social change could occur.

[Nihil]

55. It must be nice to live in a binary world like yours ...

... where absolutely everything is either black or white, and where
not a single shade of grey is to be seen, for love or money.

Meanwhile, here in London, there can be recognition that social change
is required without simultaneously having to unconditionally support
thieves, looters, murderers & thugs in their chosen occupation of
"trashing the innocent for the sake of greed".

:shrug:

[Bragi]

58. You are incorrect

At no point have I either supported or encouraged violence. I want to understand where it comes from. From what I see, the riots are not a case of garden-variety "criminality" as claimed by Cameron, the right-wing, the MSM, law enforcement and most people here at DU.

These riots look more like payback from marginalized youth who have been written off by society, and who know it, and who feel they have nothing at all at stake in civil order.

Sadly, the creation of a "lost generation" is not something distinct to the UK.

America is now busily creating its own "lost generation" that will at some point likely be equally willing to find novel ways to say Fuck You to society.

[go west young man]

63. Yeah right maybe those American youth will get off mom and dads couch

put down the PS3 controller, adjust their half down pants so they don't trip over them on the way out the door
and go out and mug some immigrants of their cell phones. Great revolution your inciting for.

[Bragi]

65. U shld know U have a bad case of "get off my lawn" syndrome /nt /nt

[go west young man]

74. That's an assumption. It doesn't hold any water.

My lawn is Barking and Dagenham. What's yours?
I could put everything in a nice wrapper for you and your yobo revolution but it
wouldn't make any difference. You perceive things the way yo do regardless of factual matter.
The scenario in London is a gray one. Not black and white as you would have it be.
I will give you some ground on social injustice. The Uk has some as do all countries.
If it is so bad then why do many foreign immigrants like Pakistani's, Iraqi's and Asian's in
London avoid rioting? Oh wait is it because they are hardworking, law abiding, good natured people
who aren't yobs? Your defending nothing but punk criminals.

[go west young man]

57. There is sometimes a time to fight and there are somethings

worth fighting for. Defense of yobs is not one of them.

[chrisa]

69. Finally someone from England came in to set the record straight.

But even then, this will fall on deaf ears. The defenders seem determined to turn this into some kind of social righteous crusade.

[Nihil]

87. You've got that right!

> But even then, this will fall on deaf ears. The defenders seem determined
> to turn this into some kind of social righteous crusade.

Thank you. It really is tiresome to keep reading all of these wannabe crusaders
posting their crap from thousands of miles away while all of the people actually
here are trying to correct them politely.

:toast:

[JVS]

+1

[AngryAmish]

32. Hyannisport Broadcaster:

"The fans are standing up to them! The security guards are standing up to them! The peanut vendors are standing up to them! And by golly, if I could get down there, I'd be standing up to them!"

[Bragi]

39. How long with this MSM/DU hate campaign last?

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4955150&mesg_id=4955597

[go west young man]

48. As long as people like yourself defend the actions of hoodlums.

[Bragi]

53. Trying to understand someone is different than "defending" them

I simply reject the apparent wide-scale support evident here for the right-wing hate meme about the rioters being "purely criminal" actors, and their actions being devoid of any political or social meaning or context.

[Nihil]

56. Sometimes a criminal really is just a criminal ...

... and their actions really are "devoid of any political or social meaning
or context".

Smearing the people who disagree with you as supporting a "right-wing hate meme"
is not a tactic that will convince readers of either your honesty or your
accuracy.

[Bragi]

59. Sometimes, yes, but these riots have context and meaning

These riots have a very real social and economic context, and it is a brutal, sad and scary context.

This is why Cameron, the MSM, and the UK right wing is so desperate to strip away any context, and to sell its meme that there is no meaning to these riots, its just garden-variety criminality.

As for calling out people who support this "right-wing hate meme", yeah, I am doing this. This is exactly what many posters here are doing in thread after thread on this issue -- promoting the right-wing hate meme.

[go west young man]

75. Believe me I'm far from right wing. Hell I wanted Kucinich for prez.

[Bragi]

77. I didn't mean to imply you are right wing

I meant to imply that you are buying into a right-wing meme, not that you are yourself of right wing view. If I implied otherwise, it was due to poor writing, and unintended.

[go west young man]

83. Thanks for the clarification.

[Scurrilous]

43. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Terry in Austin]

61. Personalities, players and profiles aside -- it's civil unrest

Without knowing who's the bad actor, who gets excused and who doesn't, the fact remains: civil unrest is civil unrest.

And England's definitely got some right now -- that much we do know.

[ZombieHorde]

68. "This is a WHITE working-class area and we are here to protect our community,"

Emphasis mine.

If people are not pleased with riots, then the causes of riots should be addressed.

[kelly1mm]

78. Ummmm, I live in a white working class neighborhood and I can say

that myself and my neighbors will defend our neighborhood from rioters/looters no matter what the race of the looters or the 'rightness' of their 'cause'. "You loot, we shoot" signs come to mind.

[ZombieHorde]

79. The original catalyst for the riots was black people feeling like they were being mistreated by

white people.

[kelly1mm]

80. So what? If the same thing happens in the US with the same catalyst,

I will be defending my neighborhood. Am I supposed to let looters/rioters of any race burn my neighborhood down because they may have some legitimate grievance? Ain't gonna happen!

[ZombieHorde]

81. Defend your stuff all you want; that is not my concern.

My concern is the racism in the quote. The privileged ethnicity seeing an inherent threat coming from the underprivileged ethnicity.