Prisoner mistreatment damages US at home, around the world : analysts

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040503/pl_afp/iraq_us_prisoners_impact&cid=1521&ncid=1473

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Shocking photographs of Iraqi prisoners naked, hooded and humiliated, taken as trophies by US forces holding them and shown via news outlets around the world, have damaged US credibility and may pose political problems for the Bush administration, analysts said.


"I'm afraid that this is, in a sense, the last nail in the coffin in the raft of arguments for the Iraq (news - web sites) war," said Rashid Khalidi, director of the Middle East Institute at Columbia University. "We started with nuclear weapons, then democratisation, then de-Baathification, then to stopping torture and really, in the matter of a few months, every one of these has fallen away.


"The United States looks increasingly foolish," he said.


But Robert Leiber, professor of government and foreign service at Georgetown University said that he hoped the abuse by US forces would be kept in perspective.

more

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040503/pl_nm/iraq_abuse_security_dc&cid=615&ncid=1473

Iraq Abuse May Undermine U.S. 'War on Terror'

Politics


Iraq Abuse May Undermine U.S. 'War on Terror'
Mon May 3, 3:20 PM ET Add Politics to My Yahoo!


By Caroline Drees, Security Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers feeds Arab and Muslim fears that the "war on terror" is part of a broad effort to humiliate them and plays into the hands of extremists like al Qaeda, analysts say.



While experts say the war in Iraq (news - web sites) and the "war on terror" are not necessarily related, the maltreatment of Iraqi prisoners will hurt efforts to rein in global terrorism and blurs the distinction for many who already question U.S. motives, credibility and respect for human rights.


"Those Americans who mistreated the prisoners may not have realized it, but they acted in the direct interests of al Qaeda, the insurgents, and the enemies of the U.S.," said Tony Cordesman at the Center for Strategic and International Studies who has held various positions in government.


"These negative images validate all other negative images and interact with them," he said in a statement, citing "careless U.S. rhetoric about Arabs and Islam," failures to stabilize Iraq, continued Israeli-Palestinian violence and fears the United States is out to dominate the Middle East.

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[nadinbrzezinski]

1. We will be forced to get out, mark my words

and this is making US far less safe and fifty years are down the drain

[Leezamarie]

2. Sodomy and dog attack pictures withheld from public

Among the pictures not released to the public included a person being attacked by a guard dog, which the soldier involved described as being useful for intimidation of prisoners. Another included a civilian contractor hired to do interrogations raping a 16 year old male Iraqi while a female soldier watched and took pictures. No charges have been brought against the contractor because he does not fall under the military's jurisdiction; it is questionable whether any charges will or even can be brought against him.

Summary of reported abuses to date
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_situation_in_post-Saddam_Iraq

[Mikimouse]

3. I just LOVE this...

"The photographs and, more importantly, the acts themselves are harmful to the cause of helping the Iraqis form a stable and democratic country," Leiber said, but he noted that such treatment is contrary to US policy.


"We must keep in mind that, although this has been an ugly business, it pales in comparison to what Saddam (Hussein) did to his own people over 30 years," he said.


"This is vastly different than Saddam's murder of millions of his own people, including "feeding people into plastic shredders and torturing children in front of their parents."

OK, Dr. Leiber, then whatever happens to any of us who are victims of reprisals should consider that one or two (or 751) deaths pale by comparison to the number of people killed on highways every year. I'll keep that in mind. By the way, since you are supposedly an academic, please provide citations and support for you statements, so that I may be enlightened, seing as how I don't believe a Godd***ed word that is spewed forth by the media or the administration. You, sir, are nothing but a shameless shill and you discredit all of us in the field of academia. F*** You!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Sometimes I spend a post just to say

RIGHT ON! :thumbsup:
Thanks for the brain drain across America, Lieber!

[Mikimouse]

6. Good to know that we are largely of one mind!

:yourock:

[NNN0LHI]

5. Dr. Leiber does us or our soldiers no favors with his glibness n/t

[Mikimouse]

8. No argument there...

Welcome to Lynne Cheney's new and improved university education. Have to wonder how they will be addressing the lynching of Blacks in the south, and Native American genocide? Now, that'll be an interesting set of courses to take. Perhaps I'll sign up for a post-doc.:nuke: :puke:

[saigon68]

7. DR. ROBERT LEIBER = DR. JOSEPH MENGELE

O.K. Dr. Leiber explain how this was worse

Pray tell, How could Saddam top this ???

When the POW had a PLASTIC FLASHLIGHT RAMMED UP HIS RECTUM ???

When a GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG BIT HIM IN THE TESTICLES ???

When the POW had a 220 Volt wire attached to the TIP OF HIS PENIS ???

When Lynndie England was encouraged to help the POWs obtain erections so they could perform ORAL SEX ACTS ON EACH OTHER and the PERKY PRINCESS OF ABU GHRAIB PRISON COULD SHOUT "HE'S GETTING HARD"???

When a POW was beaten to death, HIS BODY PACKED IN ICE and TAKEN OUT IN THE DESERT AND DUMPED

When a Civilian Interrogator ANALLY RAPED A 16 YEAR OLD BOY IN FRONT OF GI WITNESSES and is going to get a free pass because he was under NO ONES JURISDICTION ???

What a disgusting degenerate TEACHER AT A MAJOR UNIVERSITY !!!

[Mikimouse]

11. Remember though, it IS GEORGEtown...

n/t

[saigon68]

12. I went to the Univ Wisconsin

As a Member of the VVAW







The second and last Nixon Coronation Convention Miami 1972

Ron Kovic in the chair front far right



They are wimps at G-Town

[Mikimouse]

19. You have my undying admiration!...

And no, I am not being my normal facetious self when I say that. Those were awful days, sh*t, they were awful years. Until * took the WH, I really thought that we were, as a nation, healing, at least to some extent. Looking at the pics made me remember a scene I will never forget, and you might get a sad smile out of it as well. I was in Taos, NM in 1995 with a girlfriend doing the Rio Grande float trip thing, and it was the same weekend that there was a biker convention in town. We had stopped for cigarettes at one of the local quicky mart thingies, and while we were parking the car, a bunch of cyclists drove up. On the side of one of the bikes was a specially made rack that held a wheelchair. The guys were all Vietnam vets. To that point, my girlfriend had never seen me weep, and since she was considerably younger than I, didn't really have the same experiences I had. Didn't serve, too young during the escalation, and Uncle missed his chance, though he had three tries, to pull my number later on. I had decided by that time to let them come and get me if they could (after I was denied a full NROTC scholarship because of my eyes, damn it!). Did the best I could on campus and on Boston Common to get everyone the hell out of 'Nam. Kudos and warm thanks. If you are in the vicinity of the Wall, think of a boy named Pete, a great guy that taught me to play sandlot baseball. He was my introduction to the obits. :hippie: :thumbsup:

[saigon68]

24. Thank you and by the way- You didn't miss anything.

Nothing good was accomplished there and nothing good, honorable or honest will be accomplished in IRAQ-NAM.

[Oilwellian]

9. Did you see Nightline tonight?

There was a fascinating interview with the lawyer (didn't catch his name and Nightline's webpage doesn't list it) who is representing the guy you see in many of the photos. He said he was surprised the Pentagon chose to press charges against the 6 seen in the photos. He said what happened is far more reaching than just the 6 being charged. This issue also will expose the military intelligence apparatus as well as "private contractors" being used in Iraq. He hinted that the political fallout will be huge. Chris Bury asked him if one could liken the charges to "opening a can of worms" and he said that's exactly what it's done.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. For two reasons

1.- The JAG officer who was appointed started to ask questions
about the chain of command

2.- the civilian lawyer is pretty good.

Folks this will not stop with those six, though they will TRY, HARD

This goes all the way up to at least the JCS, if not the Secretary
and you can guess who is above the Secretary...

[truthisfreedom]

10. kept in what perspective? the perspective of "stifle dissent?"

bushco is toast.

[freeforall]

13. A real hit with Al Quaida...

"Those Americans who mistreated the prisoners may not have realized it, but they acted in the direct interests of al Qaeda, the insurgents, and the enemies of the U.S.,...."

Those soldiers should be in jail for this.

But, guess what? A slap on the wrist is all I forsee. And more terrorism for the US.

Way to go George, you twerp!

[NNN0LHI]

16. I really wish that just imprisoning the soldiers would help

But it would not. Bush has just created 10's of thousands of new fighters wanting to kill Americans. We can't hide from that fact.

Don

[cliss]

14. As Bush prepares another speech, he

adjusts his tie. Clears his throat. Looks in the mirror. All eyes are on him. He's going to explain for the umpteenth time why we are in Iraq.

He opens his mouth, and out comes --- nothing. There's nothing the man can say at this point. "We are bringing democracy and freedom to Iraq". He can't say that, not after what we've done to them. "We're looking for WMD's". He knows that's a bullshit line, so he doesn't birng that up. "We've got to look for Al-Qaida". The public is oh so smart, so that ruse is no good.

NOW let's look at the facts. Bush knew about the prison abuse one year ago. Scott McClellan said a week ago, "He has known about this for quite some time".

[daleo]

15. Interesting background

"ROBERT J. LIEBER is Professor of Government and Foreign Service at Georgetown University, where he has previously served as Chair of the Government Department and as Interim Chair of Psychology."

The bit about Chair of Psychology makes you wonder.

"Dr. Lieber is currently working on a book entitled, The American Era: A Guilt-Free Guide to Foreign Policy."

After all, 'guilt free' is more a state of mind than an absence crimes.

"In addition, he is editor of Eagle Adrift: American Foreign Policy at the End of the Century (1997), and with Kenneth Oye and Donald Rothchild he is co-editor and contributing author of four previous volumes on American foreign policy: Eagle in a New World: American Grand Strategy in the Post-Cold war Era (1992); Eagle Resurgent? The Reagan Era in American Foreign Policy (1987); Eagle Defiant: U.S. Foreign Policy in the 1980s (1983); and Eagle Entangled: U.S. Foreign Policy in a Complex World (1979)."

Sounds like he could be Ashcroft's songwriter.

"Professor Lieber has lectured widely in Europe, the Middle East and Asia. In the policy realm, he has been a consultant to the State Department and for National Intelligence Estimates as well as a foreign policy advisor in several presidential campaigns."

You never know, but my bets would be Reagan, Bush, campaigns.

Plus, a list of publications:
The Neo-Conservative Conspiracy Theory: Pure Myth - which defends the neo-cons for the Iraq adventure and seems to imply that opponents of the war and the neo-cons in general have an anti-Jewish agenda.

The Folly of Containment - a pro-invasion document

Foreign Policy "Realists" are Unrealistic on Iraq - a short document making the case for invasion again.


There is more, but that is about all I felt like reading. I will confess that I didn't do much more than skim these articles, to get a sense of where this guy is coming from. There is his homepage, people can judge for themselves. He seems to be solidly in the neo-conservative, and very possibly PNAC camp to me.

http://www.georgetown.edu/departments/government/faculty/lieberr/

[boobooday]

17. This was the last straw, I think

It is over with.

Our moral high ground is nothing but a steaming pile of bushit -- most everyone knew it, but now it is too obvious to ignore.

We are unfortunate enough to be living through the most shameful moment in American history, I would wager.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[saigon68]

18. The Chimp set himself up

By continuing to justify a phony WAR.

That we were morally superior to Saddam will be his downfall.

Just wait until the 7 canaries start singing, naming names.

I want to hear from Lynndie England. I want to know what motivated her to commit her War Crimes???

[librechik]

20. all they had is the illusion of the moral high ground--now gone

forever. This Bush adventure has shamed us and will continue to outrage globally. Americans won't be safe travelling anywhere. Our only hope is to stop the Shrub!

Meanwhile he is stuck "on course"

Didn't positivism die in the last century with the British Empire?

I hope this blow is sufficient to drown the Right in its own bile and hubris for the next generation. However, I fear the machine they have built will continue to chug along through the boneyards as if nothing has happened, makiong money as it goes and crushing the bones of the innocent in its path.

[slaveplanet]

22. so lets get this straight

boys and girls- we have a top level analyst identifying the "enemy" as the accused soldiers acted in direct "interests" of said enemy.

//"Those Americans who mistreated the prisoners may not have realized it, but they acted in the direct interests of al Qaeda, the insurgents, and the enemies of the U.S.," said Tony Cordesman at the Center for Strategic and International Studies who has held various positions in government. //

from below statement we a can identify "enemy" outlined above:

QUOTE: Torture has been outlawed in all circumstances everywhere. But global terrorism may be leading America to bend the rules.

Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld- January 9, 2003-
Economist mag
http://www.fairness.com/resources/by-relation?relation_id=8136

too far of a reach? you decide

[dbt]

23. What about the Corporate Angle to this horrid mess?

Was it indeed a "contractor" who decided on this method of "softening up the prisoners for interrogation?" Did the go-ahead come from the Military or from a Corporate Entity, a contractor? This area seems murky to me. You hear one thing, then you hear another.

What bothers me HUGELY is that bidness about "contractors" not being subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Question was raised on NPR Marketplace last night (Sy Hersh, I think) about whether the contractors are being used in Iraq just because they DO NOT fall under the UCMJ.

Something stinks hideously about the thought of this country using corporations to do its dirty work and paying them three or four times what our troops get!

Let the Truth come out.

:freak:
dbt